138 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

AlanC9 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Yes! Can you believe it, there's actually people that aren't carbon copies of you!

*Not trying to sound mean or anything, but I'm getting frustrated reading all these hateful posts from people that are hating just for the sake of hating*

I'm not hating. I  think you're insane, but I'm not hating.

So I'm insane because I have a differing opinion?

Because when I choose the option, "This has to end.", I'd rather not hear, "This has to end.", but hear, "You've done this for too long, and I'm going to put a stop to it!", followed by a sword going through someone's gut?

[Anathemic]

LPPrince wrote...

You do realize that the investigate options are options that lead to learning more about the situation, which is what some lines did in DAO?

With the dialogue wheel, its CLEARER.

We are not retards playing a game y'know, clearer doesn't mean better, it means easier for lazy people who don't want to read as much.
As for comparing the dialogue of DA:O to ME, in ME each choice on the right side was either end the conversation then, or add another response before end of conversation. In DA:O however, each line of dialogue I garuntee in most cases put you through another branch of dialogue, then to another branch, and so on until the conversation properly ends. ME forces the conversation giving an 'easy' way out rather in DA:O you had to listne/read to get the full experience rather than rush it.

[LPPrince]

Anathemic wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

You do realize that the investigate options are options that lead to learning more about the situation, which is what some lines did in DAO?

With the dialogue wheel, its CLEARER.

We are not retards playing a game y'know, clearer doesn't mean better, it means easier for lazy people who don't want to read as much.
As for comparing the dialogue of DA:O to ME, in ME each choice on the right side was either end the conversation then, or add another response before end of conversation. In DA:O however, each line of dialogue I garuntee in most cases put you through another branch of dialogue, then to another branch, and so on until the conversation properly ends. ME forces the conversation giving an 'easy' way out rather in DA:O you had to listne/read to get the full experience rather than rush it.

1. ME never "forced" you to choose an option. You ALWAYS had choice.

2. How do you know the DA2 system will be a carbon copy of the ME system?

Right. You don't. You need to stop assuming its the end of all things Dragon Age and actually wait for it to come out before slandering it and tossing it in the trash.

[Phazor58]

LPPrince wrote...

Phazor58 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Then that was misjudgment on your part, not the game's fault.

Some people don't want everything laid out for them. They don't want to know exactly what's going to happen before it happens.

Since the PC's voiced, they pretty much HAVE to use the dialogue wheel.

If they went by the DAO system, we'd be reading and then hearing the same exact lines.

Sorry, but that's a fail in and of itself.

What I've gathered from out exchange is that maybe people don't have a problem so much with the wheel and the implied responses, but that the PC's voiced.

I can live with the VA if we don't have a dialogue wheel.

The solution is fairly simple.  Have paraphrased choices.  This is what they used in Leliana's Song apparently (I haven't played it myself, but this is what I've heard from others).  That way we still know what we're going to say, but the VA won't just be repeating what we read.  We can only hope this is what Bioware decides to do.

I played Leliana's Song. Its just like ME's system, except there's no wheel and its still the DAO lines. Its like if you combined the two.

The reason they can't use that for DA2 is because there'd be way too much dialogue and the game would be forced into multiple disks, which is definitely a pain for console gamers such as myself(I don't have a problem with it, but some do).

How would that be any more dialogue than there was in DA:O?  In fact, there would be less if you paraphrase.  If you're referring to voice acting, the VA is going to have to say all the lines anyway.  Just because there's more words in a paraphrase than in a dialogue wheel doesn't mean he has to say more than he would have before.  Plus you could have warning about your actions by them simply putting (to use your example):

This has to end. *Kill him*

Then you'll procede to say a more epic line and stab him.  And you'll be satisfied because you're the one who said to kill the guy.

Also I'm on the PS3, so my Bluray disk will hold however much it needs to hold, lol.

[AlanC9]

LPPrince wrote...

So I'm insane because I have a differing opinion?

Because when I choose the option, "This has to end.", I'd rather not hear, "This has to end.", but hear, "You've done this for too long, and I'm going to put a stop to it!", followed by a sword going through someone's gut?

Even if you didn't intend for your character to actually stick that sword in that gut? Again, you're serious?

Edit: I'm fine with what Phazor58 is proposing above. But to be surprised by my own character doing something that I don't intend for him to do is awful design.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 juillet 2010 - 04:03 .

[Riona45]

Jestina wrote...

I would take a mute heroine over ... linear with no freedom of choice in your character. Now every game has to have a completely scripted character...leaving no room for the player to make any choices, which defeats the whole purpose of playing a game.

Good thing no one said DA2 wouldn't involve the player making any choices, right?

[Anathemic]

LPPrince wrote...
 

1. ME never "forced" you to choose an option. You ALWAYS had choice.

2. How do you know the DA2 system will be a carbon copy of the ME system?

Right. You don't. You need to stop assuming its the end of all things Dragon Age and actually wait for it to come out before slandering it and tossing it in the trash.

Misworded, my mistake, not 'forced' but misled. ME misled people into ending the conversations fast and quick without getting the full juice out of it, in DA:O it is garunteed in most cases, either way you get most of the juice out a conversation whatever branch you want to take. It didn't mislead people into choosing the left side or the right side, it was all there listed and easy to read.

Assuming that the dialogue wheel example we only have is of ME, that's what we have to go by, and tell me, how many dialogue lines can they put into a wheel to make it significant rather than listing them?

[Riona45]

Anathemic wrote...

Now think of it this way I have to 'Investigate' the conversation whereas I can't speak in a smooth flow and yet at the same time retain the basic knowledge of what influences my choice?
DA:O struck gold with this there was no 'Investigating' involved but a thought process in looking at the dialogue choices and seeing which one will influence the decision.

Investigating--requesting more information.  You did this in DA.  I don't see why it's so hard to understand or why it's worth complaining about.

[LPPrince]

Anathemic wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
 

1. ME never "forced" you to choose an option. You ALWAYS had choice.

2. How do you know the DA2 system will be a carbon copy of the ME system?

Right. You don't. You need to stop assuming its the end of all things Dragon Age and actually wait for it to come out before slandering it and tossing it in the trash.

Misworded, my mistake, not 'forced' but misled. ME misled people into ending the conversations fast and quick without getting the full juice out of it, in DA:O it is garunteed in most cases, either way you get most of the juice out a conversation whatever branch you want to take. It didn't mislead people into choosing the left side or the right side, it was all there listed and easy to read.

Assuming that the dialogue wheel example we only have is of ME, that's what we have to go by, and tell me, how many dialogue lines can they put into a wheel to make it significant rather than listing them?

Instead of left-right, DAO's was up-down.

So now it seems people have a problem with horizontality.

[Anathemic]

LPPrince wrote...
 
Instead of left-right, DAO's was up-down.

So now it seems people have a problem with horizontality.

DA:O's up-down didn't give an 'Investigate' option to reveal more choices, it gave it to you straightforward, we wnat an immersive game not an objective one

[The Blue bird]

Anathemic wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
 
Instead of left-right, DAO's was up-down.

So now it seems people have a problem with horizontality.

DA:O's up-down didn't give an 'Investigate' option to reveal more choices, it gave it to you straightforward, we wnat an immersive game not an objective one

I'm sorry, but no. The term immersion is bandied around so often on (mostly RPG) forums that it's origional meaning has been skewed. Immersion refers to the player being so engrossed in playing the game that it becomes the most important thing at that time (besides you know, breathing), immersion is the effect that causes you to play a game for hours on end without realising it. It doesn't refer to believing the game world is "real" or falling in love with the characters (that's certainly helps, but still).

Oh and that wasn't intended as an attack at you, more at how frustrated I am at the way immersion is used so casually. You would be too if you have to write freakin' essays on it

[Korva]

errant_knight wrote...

 If you're roleplaying, your dialogue can't be a surprise. On knows what one wants to say. The dialogue wheel takes DA further away from being an RPG and closer to something entirely different.

Bingo! Roleplaying hinges on me controlling my character. This has absolutely NOTHING to with treating my character as a carbon copy of myself.

When you're roleplaying in p&p, you don't grunt out random keywords based on which the GM tells you what your character says and does, and how she says it. Those decisions are entirely in your own hands. GMs would not be happy you demanded that, on top of controlling the plot and all the NPCs, the GMs are also obliged to roleplay your character just because you're too lazy to actually put any thought into her and act her out yourself. Someone who just wants to be surprised and entertained without actually contributing anything to the game isn't roleplaying. The surprise comes from all the elements that the GM controls, and the entertainment requires mutual effort or else it's just a bunch of lazy and rude consumers leeching off the creativity and energy of one person.

Of course there is no real GM in a computer game who can get fed up with people who don't want to participate actively, just consume passively. A computer game will always have much fewer choices. But that, IMO, is what the choices that do remain, the ways in which you can bring your character to life, are doubly important.

The wheel or a similar system utterly kills differentiation between characters, which is bad for replayability. If all you can choose is saint-neutral-sociopath, what is the difference between two "good" characters? There is none. Every conversation will play out in the exact same manner even if I imagine their personalities to be totally different. But I have no options to pick lines that would reflect that -- because there are no choices, and because I will never know what my characters will say or how they say it.

Modifié par Korva, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:17 .

[Tooneyman]

Phazor58 wrote...

Tooneyman wrote...

Zanderat wrote...

Careful guys they have started locking the critical threads again.

http://social.biowar...index/3074072/1

Yes, please. Keep it to a debate at the most. I ask all of you. This is good conversation lets keep it from spam.  I'm still going to be indifferent on the decision for the idea that it could work out. Though this does go against what they said in the past. Heres the source on what they said between dragon age and mass effect and how the two were completely different.  
http://xbox360.ign.c...2/982609p1.html

I need to update what I said. HEres a source. I couldn't find the interview fully, but its close to this one. This is a comparison to the two conversations styles.

Interesting.  I remember reading that interview before, but seeing it now makes me cringe.  So basically they talked about how the conversation in Dragon Age made it different from Mass Effect.  So now they're going against all that and making the dialogue systems the same.  So essentially if you take their ideas from before and apply them to what's happening now, Dragon Age 2 is just another Mass Effect.  Either that or they're hypocrites.

This was kind of the point to my conversation was the fact about how they stated they would keep the two experiences different. Now I know things change in time, but I would like to know why go to this system after telling people in an article or live interview you would change it up to a wheel format.

Another point someone said in this thread that it would take two discs to make the game with a wheel. Thats not entirely true. The only reason it took to games is because of how big the graphics and all the planets in ME 2. Dragon Age seems a little more condensed and may be easier to do.