405 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

cotheer wrote...


This ^
I remember i had to try a lot of combinations to get her to light side again, because even in 10 good selections 1 could be wrong and that would mean starting all over again.
Try having 10 options stucked on one wheel as opposed to simple decission list.

What are you talking about? KotOR didn't have 10 options on the wheel at one time either. Four, maybe five, which would fit just fine on the ME wheel

[Dave of Canada]

AlanC9 wrote...

cotheer wrote...


This ^
I remember i had to try a lot of combinations to get her to light side again, because even in 10 good selections 1 could be wrong and that would mean starting all over again.
Try having 10 options stucked on one wheel as opposed to simple decission list.

What are you talking about? KotOR didn't have 10 options on the wheel at one time either. Four, maybe five, which would fit just fine on the ME wheel

Convincing Bastila required more than one answer, you had to talk her through it. It wasn't a single conversation choice and you weren't given a small summary of what you'd say.

[RunCDFirst]

ztonkin wrote...
 Even DA:O, a game BioWare wasn't expecting to do well...

I'm pretty sure that BioWare expected DA:O to do well. You don't have a six year development cycle on something you anticipate will flop.

[Dave of Canada]

RunCDFirst wrote...

ztonkin wrote...
 Even DA:O, a game BioWare wasn't expecting to do well...

I'm pretty sure that BioWare expected DA:O to do well. You don't have a six year development cycle on something you anticipate will flop.

Duke Nukem Forever.

[Layn]

duke nukem forever is awesome... if it got finished

[cotheer]

AlanC9 wrote...

cotheer wrote...


This ^
I remember i had to try a lot of combinations to get her to light side again, because even in 10 good selections 1 could be wrong and that would mean starting all over again.
Try having 10 options stucked on one wheel as opposed to simple decission list.

What are you talking about? KotOR didn't have 10 options on the wheel at one time either. Four, maybe five, which would fit just fine on the ME wheel

I never said that KoToR had 10 options especially on a wheel.
I meant that, in this case, to convince Bastilla to pass over you had to make like 10 (random number) right decissions , and in those 10 even 1 could mean failure.
And my point was that it's easier to put those option in a list than to have them on a wheel.
Again, wheel in ME worked well, but its place is not in "classic" like DA.

[Mirage III]

Things get worse, so now we will get ME Dialogue Wheel. It was obvious though, if you put voiced hero with the name, why not to add lovely wheel. Interestingly, why all developers think that people don't want to read written dialogs?

Now I know that I don't want to buy DA2. If I need Mass Effect, I can play it, but not another ME in Dragon Age's clothing.

[FuKuy]

WHAT?! I don't want a wheel dialogue for DAII. Yeah, it's fine for ME, but I prefer the dialogue list for Dragon Age. It feels more "old school" and more clear to what I want to say.

[Daeion]

I guess I don't mind the wheel as much as others and I'm happy that my character will now actually have a voice instead of just standing around and looking blankly at people they are interacting with.  To me the wheel is more about gut reactions, situations where your character wouldn't really be taking time to compose their words.  This works well in ME because it is more of an action game where your character isn't handleing polotical situations.  The system in DA worked well because a lot of times you were having conversations with political ramifications or moodier people and you were the head of your order so you had to take the time to choose your words.  From what I've heard so far i expect DA2 to play more like ME and ME2 then origins or awakening and thus I guess I wheel makes sense.  I'm not saying I like DA2 playing like ME2, just that if it does, using the wheel makes sense. 

[RunCDFirst]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Duke Nukem Forever.

And the DNF team expected their game to do well... if they ever got around to releasing ,

Mirage III wrote...

Things get worse, so now we will get ME Dialogue Wheel. It was obvious though, if you put voiced hero with the name, why not to add lovely wheel. Interestingly, why all developers think that people don't want to read written dialogs?
Now I know that I don't want to buy DA2. If I need Mass Effect, I can play it, but not another ME in Dragon Age's clothing.

Probably because a lot of people do want voiced characters. I know that was a sticking point in a number of reviews when DA:O was released. I'm sure non-BG fans were a little off-put by the lack of voice and anyone else not used to old school rpgs.

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:00 .

[AlanC9]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

cotheer wrote...


This ^
I remember i had to try a lot of combinations to get her to light side again, because even in 10 good selections 1 could be wrong and that would mean starting all over again.
Try having 10 options stucked on one wheel as opposed to simple decission list.

What are you talking about? KotOR didn't have 10 options on the wheel at one time either. Four, maybe five, which would fit just fine on the ME wheel

Convincing Bastila required more than one answer, you had to talk her through it. It wasn't a single conversation choice and you weren't given a small summary of what you'd say.

Sure,  it required more than one answer. Your point? You can have multiple stages of a conversation with a wheel too. The ME games do this already

I guess your point is that the options couldn't possibly be summarized enough to fit on the wheel. I don't buy it, but if you've got a transcript of the convo handy feel free to show why it wouldn't work.

[OriginsIsBest]

I Hate the wheel.

[AlanC9]

cotheer wrote...

I meant that, in this case, to convince Bastilla to pass over you had to make like 10 (random number) right decissions , and in those 10 even 1 could mean failure.

True, but utterly irrelevant.

And my point was that it's easier to put those option in a list than to have them on a wheel.

You asserted that, but you didn't give me any reason to believe it.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Crrash wrote...

duke nukem forever is awesome... if it got finished

Actually...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yenaquai wrote...

I for one welcome the idea. I disliked the very clumsy, awkward "textwall" at the bottom of the screen that always seemed to intfere with the whole scene. I felt very distracted all the time when this huge black box suddenly jumped up and reminded me all to well that it is just a game.

This is actually something I've complained about in modern games, because the interface in conversation and out of conversation is so different.

I suggest that the solution is a NWN-style UI with a persistent text-box.  If the text-box is always on the screen, it won't come and go and draw attention to itself.

And since it's there, it would be a great place to put a combat log.

[RunCDFirst]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
This is actually something I've complained about in modern games, because the interface in conversation and out of conversation is so different.

I suggest that the solution is a NWN-style UI with a persistent text-box.  If the text-box is always on the screen, it won't come and go and draw attention to itself.

And since it's there, it would be a great place to put a combat log.

But how is that cinematic, Sylvius? Movies don't have a persistent subtitle textbox!!!

But, seriously, that would remove the popping up text issue. I, personally, have no problem with the text box popping up. UI disappears during cutscenes, most games with mini-games will have their overlays only appear when you are engaged with the game and the like. And it's not like the dialogue wheel doesn't pop anyway. <_<

[Sylvius the Mad]

RunCDFirst wrote...

But how is that cinematic, Sylvius?

It isn't.  Being cinematic isn't a desirable outcome.

[Mirage III]

Probably because a lot of people do want voiced characters. I know that was a sticking point in a number of reviews when DA:O was released. I'm sure non-BG fans were a little off-put by the lack of voice and anyone else not used to old school rpgs.

Do you have any results of polls? And I don't think that majority of reviews pointed this as a disadvantage of DA:O. Anyway, voiced character is not so bad, like ME Dialogue Wheel. It's just unnecessary simplyfication. I will appreciate fully voiced hero with written dialogs, not just paraphrase or intonation like in Alpha Protocol. 

[cotheer]

AlanC9 wrote...

cotheer wrote...

I meant that, in this case, to convince Bastilla to pass over you had to make like 10 (random number) right decissions , and in those 10 even 1 could mean failure.

True, but utterly irrelevant.

And my point was that it's easier to put those option in a list than to have them on a wheel.

You asserted that, but you didn't give me any reason to believe it.

Irrelevant how?
Wheel is doomed to be divided into
sections of good, evil, neutral... where you already know "the right" answer/decision, without even reading the text.
The list requires you to actualy read and make a decision/selection according.

As for other part, LOGIC.
Is it easier for developer/modder to simply put dialog options in one list from which all decisions branch or to have one wheel with upto 6 options in which every option/selection my branch yet to another wheel (taking into consideration my response to first part of your post)?

Modifié par cotheer, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:31 .

[TiaraBlade]

1) So you rather watch two people talk to each other, with you as the omnipotent figure telling one side what to do and seeing how another reacts, how is that immersion?

Is being omnipotent person picking a line and watching one person talk while your avatar stares blankly and silently more immersive? I don't see that. You disagree and that is fine. How you immerse yourself in a game and experience seems different than mine.

2) Not having a VO gives a better roleplaying immersion experience, how? It actually let's you put your roleplaying skills to use, immersing yourself into what type of chracter I want to be instead of predetermined dialogue options which tell you, we are not stupid here.

People keep saying this yet it makes no sense. In Dragonage, your dialogue options are just as predetermined. If you get three choices, you don't get to type in a fourth.  Perhaps there is some miscommunication here but, again as I've said, whether it's DA or ME, you tend to have the same choices:
1. positive
2. neutral
3. negative
4. investigate.
Sometimes a charm or intimidate. Whether selecting from a ME dialogue wheel and hearing it spoken or selecting a line and not hear it, you have no more choice and the lines are already predetermined.  Also, how is one somehow a more adept use of RPG skills than another?

3)The dialogue system in DA:O is better than ME why? Because it gave it to you straight forward, lsiting all possible options, true that some options where 'Investigate' but they were ACTUAL options rather than 'Click Investigate to further explore what dialogue options there is' really is that immersive or objective?

Again, simply not true. Now, if you want to complain that the relatively short descriptions in a ME dialogue wheel leads to sometimes not be sure of exactly what you will say compared to the line itself in DA:O, fine. That is not what you are saying. Also, whether a dialogue wheel or line tree, they operate very similar with sub menus in there. In neither case are all possible options listed as you seem to be saying otherwise you might need 10 to 30 lines at the same time.

BTW, in DAO you DO have the "click investigate to further explore..."
How you can say otherwise, baffles me.

4) Maybe you didn't have a problem with ME's Shepard's tone for various choices, but many others did, we didn't like how Shepard said "No" and started to threaten somebody

Ahh... finally a more legit concern. This makes more sense to me. I disagree mind you because I felt that when I choose a dialogue option, the tone matched what I wanted but that is my opinion. That said, I will take a ME take on dialogue over what DA:O did. If you disagree, that is fine but that does not make me less knowledgeable of how to role-play, thank you kindly.

[TiaraBlade]

Anathemic wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...
1) So you rather watch two people talk to each other, with you as the omnipotent figure telling one side what to do and seeing how another reacts, how is that immersion?

LOL!  The person you're talking to didn't say anything like that.  Really, you come off like you're just making stuff up!

Not really

"In your opinion. You see, my choice is that I WANT my character to have
a voice. I want to HEAR those words. I feel more in tune with a
character who actually SPEAKS to a world when it speaks to her. That is
a greater connection to me than "pick a line and see how the other
character reacts."" -TiaraBlade

Alright from bolded statement, I'm guessing that a two-way conversatio nright, the character speaks and the world (NPC) speaks back? so you are essentially watching/listening to a conversation yes?

Yep. You find that less immersive. I do not. What you find immersive, what I would describe as watching the avatar stare mutely and blankly as EVERYONE BUT HER gets a voce, I do not.

It is OPINION. Please disagree, that's fine. Just realize that your opinion does not in this case hold any greater weight than mine does, just as I do not claim that mine does. I suspect that more people would find a ME style of dialogue more immersive but I could be wrong.

[camirish1]

If forced morality (Renegade/Paragon) isn't added along side the wheel, this will definitely surpass ME is terms of engaging storytelling. Forcing morality down your throat will never make a game engaging! Let us think for ourselves! (If you didn't notice, I don't like tracking your morality in games.)

[RunCDFirst]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
It isn't.  Being cinematic isn't a desirable outcome.

It's not our desired outcome. But, according to BioWare's jargon, it's their desired outcome. 

[TiaraBlade]

The dialogue wheel just encourages you to become more of a passive participant during dialogues, which makes it all the more frustrating, like you're watching hours of fixed cutscenes.
 
How does a dialogue wheel make one more passive than a non voiced response selected from a bunch of written lines?

Whether a dialogue wheel actually limits the outcomes or not, there'll be a greater disconnect and ambiguity between your "choice" and what the PC actually says or does.
 
This is really the only complaint that makse sense. That said did people really find the choices in ME that ambigous that often? I would be surprised.

I can only assume that the wheel is to cover up the lack of diverse dialogue now that the PC has to be fully voiced as well
 
Does not compute given how the NPC's are fully voiced. They have a ton of diverse dialogue so why would having a voiced PC be any different? I do not recall the dialogues in ME being particularly shorter than those in DA:O. The only exception might be that at camp the companions seemed more chatty than the ones of ME2 but that's about it. In the original ME, the dialogues of my companions were just as deep and lengthy as DA:O 

- even the illusion of choice can be something as long as you don't look at it too closely.

Of course you have as much freedom in either system. In either one, the amount of responses tend to be the same.

[TiaraBlade]

errant_knight wrote...

Solostran85 wrote...

Why Bioware? Most people like the DAO dialogue system better. Anyway DA2 sounds like a major let down. I wont even bother with it.

Why is the big question. I think it must all be aimed at decreasing conversation and dialogue choices to save money on voice acting. Otherwise, this makes no sense. They tried to decrease it in Awakening, and even more so with this. And yet, all the conversation was what appealed to many most about the game. It, and the freedom to control when and how you conversed with your companions made it feel like a real journey with real people. it set Dragon Age apart from other games in terms of involvement. And yet it's gone.

When DA:O came out, many people were surprised that it did not have a voiced protagonist, especially when you consider how well ME's dialogue system worked. Some people even complained and demanded that a ME like system be put out.

BTW, again I heard this comment on limiting dialogue choices. It does no such thing.