405 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackyBlack]

correction: the choice is: "AI is dangerous", not AI is bad

[Untamed_skies]

So no one wants emotion behind the words? I mean only for all extents and purposes the difference between ME and DA is that one was on a list, the other a wheel. Being angry they made them both on wheels seems kinda like crying of spilled milk.



I've heard such about there being a happy, angry, sarcastic, flirty, option to spice it up that no one wants? So putting emotion into the character is a bad thing then? The Main Character ought to be as robotic as possible? Or is it just taking the same old and putting it on a wheel? Cause if that's the case then I really don't understand the problem

[jjkrogs]

I love the ME series AND DA. One of the things I liked about ME is the voiced PC and the dialogue wheel. Actually, the ME options have always flowed better for me, moreso than in DA where there were many instances when none of the dialogue options were something my character would say.



To me, this will be an improvement for DA2.

[Anathemic]

I'm in a joking mood right now so don't take this as a well-thought out post...



"Die-a-lawg wheelz are srz buzniss"

[asaiasai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The wheel makes perfect sense since Hawke is voiced. You can't have one without the other really. Now the question is, do you want to play *a* character in a movie-like game which you essentially direct? Or do you want to play *your* character in a story you live through? That's the big question that all those details (VA, dialogue wheel) come back to. There are valid points to liking both styles. But my preference of DA:O compared to ME is largely due to my preference of the classic genre and I would have preferred if DA2 remained faithful to its origin and not tried to mutt itself with a game I consider inferior (but still great). That said, I am sure DA2 will be a great game, even if it probabyl won't have the same impact on me as Origins did.

That is the cruxt of my concern that i am going to be playing Mass Effect in the DAO world. When you play ME you are not playing your character, you are playing thier character. In ME right from the very beginning you are forced into a box so to speak in that if you choose a Paragon response to the first person you talk to you are locked into playing the rest of the game as a Paragon. This is the primary reason why DAO is so superior to ME in that the warden is my warden, i can slap those who need a slap and hug those who deserve it instead of the Mass Effect way where i am forced to slap everybody or hug everybody regardless. The most beautyful thing about DAO is, as a player i could personalize the warden far beyond looks and builds, i could interject my own personality into the character, and the more i hear the more i am convinced that DA2 is not going to have this option. It seems that with the direction DA2 is going the developers are trying thier best to remove any individuality from the characters until every character is rubber stamped identical until we are all just pushing the same character around the world, cookie cutter clones. I have 4 plays in ME because in reality that is all there is male paragon, male renegade, female paragon, female renegade, and this is all the options the game has offered. I have 19 plays in DAO and have had for the most part a different experience each time running across something different.

I guess i am spoiled and i am sure that if i had played ME before i played DAO my opinions may not be as strong in this regard, but in all honesty the only reason i bought ME was because it was Bioware and for NO other reason. I have just spent close to 2500 dollars building a new computer for games, i still do not have ME or ME2 installed, and in all reality concerning ME2, been there done that way to many times to have any concern about the tee shirt. In all my years of gaming i have seen a few bright spots come and go, i noticed it a while ago with Quake which offered a kick ass single player experience ID opened up the experience with a coop mode. Today instead of a rarity as it used to be it is now becomming more and more common place. The same can be said of DAO where the player is truly given the perception of freedom to develop thier character in the way they have chosen, adding in some of thier own personality into the world truly creating an individual experience, this makes DAO a bright spot in a drab gaming world. I just hope that DA2 will stay true to the ideas that seperated it from the rest of the schlok avaliable in todays bloated gaming market, it would be a shame to have been in the light of brilliance only the have the light extinguished for convience or to meet some arbitrary dead line.
 
Asai

[zahra]

Anathemic wrote...

I'm in a joking mood right now so don't take this as a well-thought out post...

"Die-a-lawg wheelz are srz buzniss"

lol

[AlanC9]

asaiasai wrote...
n ME right from the very beginning you are forced into a box so to speak in that if you choose a Paragon response to the first person you talk to you are locked into playing the rest of the game as a Paragon.

You mean ME2. In ME1 there's no compelling reason to go all-out Paragon or Renegade. 

Anyway, while I agree this is terrible design in ME2, the problem comes from the morality system, not the dialog wheel.

[asaiasai]

AlanC9 wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
n ME right from the very beginning you are forced into a box so to speak in that if you choose a Paragon response to the first person you talk to you are locked into playing the rest of the game as a Paragon.

You mean ME2. In ME1 there's no compelling reason to go all-out Paragon or Renegade. 

Anyway, while I agree this is terrible design in ME2, the problem comes from the morality system, not the dialog wheel.

True enough, i for the sake of key strokes failed to be specific in typing the Mass Effect series. I am not concerned really with a dialog wheel i am more concerned with that the game seems to be absorbing many of the limiting things from the ME series. I like other folks think the dialog wheel is going to limit options which will limit the ability of the player to personalize the experience. DAO is as good as it is because there are very few limitations that interfere with the perception of freedom. Yes, I do realize that there will never be true freedom in a game as the programming required would be to complex, but you can still strive to provide the perception of freedom, which i think the dialog wheel will limit. I remain optomistic, it is Bioware after all, i am just adding my 2 cents in to remind Bioware that if the choice arises, limit the perception of freedon or do a little extra work, even if it means bumping the game a few months, do the extra work. The Mass Effect series is about your Shepard Bioware, Dragon Age is about MY warden or in the case of DA2 my Hawke, that is the major difference between the two titles. Post it notes, a dialog list, or dialog wheels it really does not matter to me so long as the developers take great pains to remember that the perception of freedom is paramount to keeping the title great. I can go push any avatar around in any story driven game on the market today, what i can not do is push around my personal avatar in any place other than DAO.
Asai

[the_one_54321]

To me this is unsettling only because the next thing in line to go is the combat mechanics. If the combat mechanics go action-game, I'm probably going to disown BioWare.

[Jangling Jack]

Taking away origin stories is not such a big deal for me. Not being able to choose the race of your character is acceptable. But switching to dialogue wheel? To keep it simple: **** dialogue wheels!

I've been playing Bioware games since Baldurs gate was first released and I was generally very happy with DAO. As for ME and ME2 they are good for what they are, but now when DA2 seems to be going in that direction I think I'll plan on not buying it.

Modifié par Jangling Jack, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:06 .

[DragonRageGT]

"-We will always have Casablanca.. I mean... Baldur's Gate... I mean, Denerim!" said my poor hero to her beloved Leliana as he went on to kill himself as promised if a fraking wheel came out in the next game.



It can be named anything but Dragon Age 2. Because it clearly has not the Dragon Age 1 in it. It has SHEPA HAWKE!



I won't say I won't be buying it. But I'll definitely try a demo of it first. And who knows, perhaps The Witcher 3, Gothic 5 and Risen 2 will all have fraking wheels too... in their bovine traction carts!

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mary Kirby wrote...

I haven't played Alpha Protocol yet, so I can't compare the DA2 system with theirs. However, it looks like you've got the gist of the new system. You have a wheel like Mass Effect's, and when you move over a selection, you get an icon in the center of the wheel that indicates the intent of the player line: Flirty, violent, sarcastic, etc.

That's actually worse that just using the ME wheel without the voice-over.  You're making the tone of the line's delivery explicit.  You're limiting the intent of the player to pre-written options.

DAO doesn't limit the intent of the player nearly that much.  Literally any intent that is consistent with any reading of any line that doesn't contradict the literal meainig of that line is possible.  The system described here limts the player to a handful of possible intents with each response.

[wwwwowwww]

Drama Lamas! Place is full of them.



To many judgements being made about a game there has been very little released about yet. Pretty sad if you ask me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

wwwwowwww wrote...

To many judgements being made about a game there has been very little released about yet. Pretty sad if you ask me.

We're not judging the game, we're judging the mechanics.  And we've seen some of these mechanics before.  We're well able to judge them.

[wwwwowwww]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

To many judgements being made about a game there has been very little released about yet. Pretty sad if you ask me.

We're not judging the game, we're judging the mechanics.  And we've seen some of these mechanics before.  We're well able to judge them.

Are you?

I only ask because I've seen at least 3 different posts by David Gaider saying that while it is similar to ME it is NOT the same. Which would make it different than what you have seen correct? 

[Sylvius the Mad]

wwwwowwww wrote...

I only ask because I've seen at least 3 different posts by David Gaider saying that while it is similar to ME it is NOT the same. Which would make it different than what you have seen correct?

They've given us one piece of information about how it's different (the emotion icon), and that piece of information seems to make the problem worse (and less fixable simply by removing the PC voice).

The other obvious way it could be different from the ME wheel is that the paraphrased options could be better written.  And I'll admit that had the ME options been well written, I might never have complained about ME's dialogue wheel.  But ME's paraphrased options were terribly written.

When I see improvements, I will applaud them.  What I've seen so far is nothing but bad news (with regard to the dialogue system).

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 12 juillet 2010 - 06:52 .

[DeadInHell]

12 pages in I probably am not saying anything remotely new, but I think a system that is a bit of ME and bit of AP sounds pretty great to me.

I will not be missing the old dialogue system. I've never been too keen on that style.

[DeadInHell]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

To many judgements being made about a game there has been very little released about yet. Pretty sad if you ask me.

We're not judging the game, we're judging the mechanics.  And we've seen some of these mechanics before.  We're well able to judge them.

Are you?

I only ask because I've seen at least 3 different posts by David Gaider saying that while it is similar to ME it is NOT the same. Which would make it different than what you have seen correct? 

What does he know, he's only working on the game.

Surely our speculations are more valuable.

[wwwwowwww]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

I only ask because I've seen at least 3 different posts by David Gaider saying that while it is similar to ME it is NOT the same. Which would make it different than what you have seen correct?

They've given us one piece of information about how it's different (the emotion icon), and that piece of information seems to make the problem worse (and less fixable simply by removing the PC voice).

The other obvious way it could be different from the ME wheel is that the paraphrased options could be better written.  And I'll admit that had the ME options been well written, I might never have complained about ME's dialogue wheel.  But ME's paraphrased options were terribly written.

When I see improvements, I will applaud them.  What I've seen so far is nothing but bad news (with regard to the dialogue system).

What have you seen regarding the DA:2 version? Not a thing at all. How can you say the the emotion icon makes it worse? Have you already played the game using it? 

Your argument is based on what you think might be different and what you assume might be more difficult yet you have nothing to stand your ground on.

Ever tried reserving judgement until you've actually utilized or experienced something on your own? 

Again DA and ME are not the same game, just because they shar something similar doesn't make them the same.

From another thread:


David Gaider
 

I would suggest that you wait to hear
exactly what our approach is before trying to figure out whether it's
what you're interested in or not.



People appear to be
acting as if the scant details we've revealed are all they'll ever learn
about the game ever, and they're thus required to render judgment
immediately.



You're really not. You might, in fact, want
to see exactly how we're implementing these features you dislike and
seeing for yourself whether they differ from, say, Mass Effect's. There
are similarities, of course, but there are also differences... and to
assume you know everything about how the game is going to feel based off
the most cursory of information is just going to make you look foolish.



Perhaps
in the end DA2 won't be for you after all. That's fair. You should be
able to judge prior to actually playing it-- there will be information
galore available prior to its release, I'm sure. But if you want to have
questions asking the "why" regarding our approach taken seriously, it
might be sensible to wait and see what that approach is first.

Modifié par wwwwowwww, 12 juillet 2010 - 07:20 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

wwwwowwww wrote...

What have you seen regarding the DA:2 version? Not a thing at all. How can you say the the emotion icon makes it worse?

You're clearly not reading what I'm saying.

Ever tried reserving judgement until you've actually utilized or experienced something on your own?

Routinely.  But until then, I speculate, and I ask questions.  Maybe I'll raise an issue they haven't considered.  Maybe I'll raise an issue some other player hasn't considered.  Why are we discussing DA2 at all at this point if we're not allowed to have opinions about its mechanics?

The mechanics are pretty much all I ever want BioWare to tell me about before the game is released.  Almost every other piece of information I count as a spoiler, and I don't want it.  I don't want to know how many companions there are, or their names.  I don't want to know anything about the setting or the plot.  I want to learn all of those things while I'm playing the game.

But the mechanics: those I want in advance.

So they've given us a tiny fragment of infomation about the mechanics, and I'm following that piece of information in a number of different directions to see what the possible gameplay consequences are.  And when I find those, I share them.  I'm not claiming (read my other comments again) that DA2 will be bad.  I'm pointing out how opther similar mechanics have failed in the past.  I'm pointing out how my complaints with those systems are not addressed (and in fact exacerbated) by the new feature, as I understand it.

I'm not jumping to any conclusions, here.  I'm not making up my mind now.  I'm trying to learn.

[Bryy_Miller]

the_one_54321 wrote...

To me this is unsettling only because the next thing in line to go is the combat mechanics. If the combat mechanics go action-game, I'm probably going to disown BioWare.

Unless you were on PC, it was pretty much an action game already.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

To me this is unsettling only because the next thing in line to go is the combat mechanics. If the combat mechanics go action-game, I'm probably going to disown BioWare.

Unless you were on PC, it was pretty much an action game already.

It was still stat-driven, and there weren't any twitch-based or timing-based mechanics.

[soteria]

The mechanics are pretty much all I ever want BioWare to tell me about before the game is released. Almost every other piece of information I count as a spoiler, and I don't want it. I don't want to know how many companions there are, or their names. I don't want to know anything about the setting or the plot. I want to learn all of those things while I'm playing the game.

But the mechanics: those I want in advance.

I agree. Unfortunately, Bioware always seems reluctant to release those details, don't they? Even after Dragon Age was released, some things were pretty obscure.

DAO doesn't limit the intent of the player nearly that much. Literally any intent that is consistent with any reading of any line that doesn't contradict the literal meainig of that line is possible. The system described here limts the player to a handful of possible intents with each response.

I see it as an improvement, but we view the dialogue lines fundamentally differently. As far as I'm concerned, the lines in Dragon Age *do* have a certain tone associated with them. For example, you can "sarcastically" choose "An honor, King Cailan," but that doesn't really mean anything. Cailan responds the way the writers intended him to respond. Each dialogue is written with a certain tone in mind already, which can be seen in how NPCs respond to you. Mr. Gaider said as much (you may have seen the post).

Now, in BG, you could pretend NPCs responded a certain way to your choices because the dialogue wasn't voiced and the NPCs certainly weren't 3D characters with personalities and expression. You may prefer that (in fact, I'm pretty sure you do, given past posts), but we're unlikely to see game developers take a step back in technology.

[Daewan]

I demand a Dialogue Square. I am against Wheels.

So long as my options actually influence the way that people respond, I'll accept it. However, I accepted "...." as the proper response to a passionate in-game declaration of love for years, so maybe I'm not the best judge.

[Nighteye2]

Is there a way to turn the dialogue wheel off, and just get full-text options? I much prefer those...