I don't actually have a problem with the wheel -- I have a problem with the voiced protagonist. I know a lot of people won't get that. When I'm reading the answers, I hear them in my voice -- it puts me more in the character. When I play a game that has a voiced protagonist, I feel disconnected -- it's someone else's voice.
That doesn't mean that DA2 won't be a good game. It most likely will be. But I won't feel the same level of immersion. Face it, when a different voice is responding to the companions than my own, I'm going to be watching a couple of people talk rather than being a part of the conversation.
I'm sure if ME3 dropped the dialog wheel and the voiced protagonist, ME fans would be upset. Really, for quite a few people, it was the way the dialog was handled in DAO that kept people playing and replaying. I know I loved it.
It actually is a complement to the writers how unhappy so many DA fans are over this change. Because DAO was really that immersive to so many of us.
The Dialogue Wheel Confirmed
Débuté par
Anathemic
, juil. 10 2010 02:27
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#52
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:39
Riona45
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ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Gosh it's almost like you don't actually roleplay your characters and just pick dialogue options.
For those of us who get really into making our characters beyond their physical appearance and combat skills, a dialogue wheel vastly limits our ability to y'know, DO THAT.
Well, It's-Elitist-Time, if I can get into my character with the dialogue wheel and you can't, doesn't that make *me* the better roleplayer?
#53
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:40
syllogi
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Riona45 wrote...
TeenZombie wrote...
A dialogue wheel is an easy way to create the illusion of choice when in fact all options lead to the same spoken words.
You aren't aware that the illusion of choice you're talking about happens with "regular" dialogue options, too?
Sure, but it's much, much harder to mask that "Yes" and "No" are going to lead to your character saying "Sure" or "Why not!" with a text based system.
I'm willing to give the new system a chance, but like I said, the combination of these three factors leads me to believe that we will be faced with much less dialogue and roleplaying opportunities.
The Dragon Age franchise was supposed to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2. Nothing that has been announced so far for DA2 leads me to believe that they are still using that game as a role model.
#54
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:40
TiaraBlade
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Some complaints do not make sense to me, including how a dialogue wheel with spoken words somehow gives you less"choice" or "options" compared to non-spoke dialogue trees.
In both DA and ME, you tend to get the following choices:
1. positive response
2. neutral response
3. negative response
4. investigate (goes to a second wheel or dialogue tree of various subjects)
And sometimes you get additional choices based on intimidation of persuasion. I didn't see much difference.except for the campside chats with your followers in DA where the overall conversations seemed to go on longer and your companions had more to say. That has nothing to do with a spoken dialogue wheel though (after all, all of your companions are fully voices- you can't tell me voicing the PC would be a killer here).
I think some people are going into a "they changed it and now it sucks" trip.
In both DA and ME, you tend to get the following choices:
1. positive response
2. neutral response
3. negative response
4. investigate (goes to a second wheel or dialogue tree of various subjects)
And sometimes you get additional choices based on intimidation of persuasion. I didn't see much difference.except for the campside chats with your followers in DA where the overall conversations seemed to go on longer and your companions had more to say. That has nothing to do with a spoken dialogue wheel though (after all, all of your companions are fully voices- you can't tell me voicing the PC would be a killer here).
I think some people are going into a "they changed it and now it sucks" trip.
#55
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:41
asaiasai
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ME and ME2 were LAME in comparison to DAO even Awakeneing bugs and all kicked the dog snot out of both ME games. I have been concerned about this for quite awhile and i will say it again, Keep your stinking ME out of my DAO!
Asai
Asai
#56
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:41
LPPrince
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TeenZombie wrote...
Riona45 wrote...
TeenZombie wrote...
A dialogue wheel is an easy way to create the illusion of choice when in fact all options lead to the same spoken words.
You aren't aware that the illusion of choice you're talking about happens with "regular" dialogue options, too?
Sure, but it's much, much harder to mask that "Yes" and "No" are going to lead to your character saying "Sure" or "Why not!" with a text based system.
I'm willing to give the new system a chance, but like I said, the combination of these three factors leads me to believe that we will be faced with much less dialogue and roleplaying opportunities.
The Dragon Age franchise was supposed to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2. Nothing that has been announced so far for DA2 leads me to believe that they are still using that game as a role model.
Last time I checked, it wasn't the franchise that was supposed to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, but Dragon Age ORIGINS.
I could be wrong, though.
#57
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:42
LPPrince
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asaiasai wrote...
ME and ME2 were LAME in comparison to DAO even Awakeneing bugs and all kicked the dog snot out of both ME games. I have been concerned about this for quite awhile and i will say it again, Keep your stinking ME out of my DAO!
Asai
That would be your opinion, not a fact, and pretty much every credible reviewer would disagree, so please try to give your opinion in a less asinine way.
#58
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:46
Azriel77
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Well, now we know why they didn't show this at E3, everyone would be screaming that this is just a mass effect console crap as soon as they saw the dialog wheel. Which is clearly seems to be.
ME2 was a fun game if you turned your brain off and watched the movie..er..I mean play the game. The people defending the dialog wheel saying that it will not limit your choices is deluding themselves. Its going to be the same super dumb down dialog we got in mass effect(in sparkling cinamatic quality...yippee).
I hate what eaware has become, whatever cred they built up is completely gone now.
ME2 was a fun game if you turned your brain off and watched the movie..er..I mean play the game. The people defending the dialog wheel saying that it will not limit your choices is deluding themselves. Its going to be the same super dumb down dialog we got in mass effect(in sparkling cinamatic quality...yippee).
I hate what eaware has become, whatever cred they built up is completely gone now.
#60
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:49
ITSSEXYTIME
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LPPrince wrote...
TeenZombie wrote...
Riona45 wrote...
TeenZombie wrote...
A dialogue wheel is an easy way to create the illusion of choice when in fact all options lead to the same spoken words.
You aren't aware that the illusion of choice you're talking about happens with "regular" dialogue options, too?
Sure, but it's much, much harder to mask that "Yes" and "No" are going to lead to your character saying "Sure" or "Why not!" with a text based system.
I'm willing to give the new system a chance, but like I said, the combination of these three factors leads me to believe that we will be faced with much less dialogue and roleplaying opportunities.
The Dragon Age franchise was supposed to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2. Nothing that has been announced so far for DA2 leads me to believe that they are still using that game as a role model.
Last time I checked, it wasn't the franchise that was supposed to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, but Dragon Age ORIGINS.
I could be wrong, though.
Ah yes, the first game was the spiritual successor and now that they're done that ITS DRAGON EFFECT TIME. **** YEAH BABY
#61
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:51
Kalfear
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Azriel77 wrote...
Well, now we know why they didn't show this at E3, everyone would be screaming that this is just a mass effect console crap as soon as they saw the dialog wheel. Which is clearly seems to be.
ME2 was a fun game if you turned your brain off and watched the movie..er..I mean play the game. The people defending the dialog wheel saying that it will not limit your choices is deluding themselves. Its going to be the same super dumb down dialog we got in mass effect(in sparkling cinamatic quality...yippee).
I hate what eaware has become, whatever cred they built up is completely gone now.
Gotta agree.
Im as old a die hard Bioware fan as there is and this might be the final straw for me!
I DIDNT want to like DA:O because it was fantasy and I was burned out on fantasy but I did like it. I LOVED IT.
and now, like my Mass Effect franchise, it seems everything I loved is being taken away from me
Im seriously starting to think Ive outlived the gaming market cause I dont like this twitch ADD based crap they putting out! I loved DA:O for its dept and story and living enviroment! Basically I loved DA:O because it had everything Mass Effect 2 was missing. So to see them go the ME2 route is just dishearting.
#62
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:52
Suron
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jesus. ****ing. christ. are you guys REALLY that lost in creativity and originality now Bio? you can't even ****ing keep things seperate......now you're going to clone ME's convo system into DA?
what. the. ****.
what. the. ****.
#64
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:55
orpheus333
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They should use the Leliana's Song method of dialogue a combination of Awakenings environment dialogue along with a cut down paraphrased dialogue structure. Printing the whole response feels clumsy to me.
#65
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:56
TiaraBlade
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Do you know nothing of roleplay? Sorry to be blunt, but I can't help but ask.
I do, thank you.
Roleplay requires you to immerse yourself into a character and make it your own.
I do by making the character look like I want him/her to, act as I want within the choices given to me, and speak as I want, again within the choices given to me.
A voice over doesn't give us that
In your opinion. You see, my choice is that I WANT my character to have a voice. I want to HEAR those words. I feel more in tune with a character who actually SPEAKS to a world when it speaks to her. That is a greater connection to me than "pick a line and see how the other character reacts."
it's a predetermined voice, not the one you want, not to mention that voice is restrictive in what tone it uses.
Not having a voice is restrictive as well. Having played ME1 and ME2, I never had a problem with the tone my character used: it matched what the dialogue was.
A dialogue wheel doesn't give us that because your responses are preset, to what? Good Bad and neutral?
And DA:O is different? You seem to think so but I never saw much of a difference if the variety of responses in DA vs either ME. In either game, it's, as I noted in another post, more or less postive, neutral, negative, investigate, and sometimes a persuade or intimidate choice.
And even so your dialogue option doesn't even match up to what wil lbe done/said. If I want my chracter to treaten the NPC I want them to say threaten not punch the other person/NPC talking to me.
Again, I don't see this problem in ME1 or ME2 unless you are referring to the Renegade/Paragon interrupts which you should figure out are going to end a conversation and might be a little extreme. I very rarely picked a dialogue choice in ME and was shocked that Shephard said something I wasn't expecting or intending.
I just do not see your arguements carrying any weight, I am sorry. I believe that for some reason you are overally invested in this. Honestly, questioning whether I understand what role-playing is happens to be silly. Whether ME or DA:O, we are creating a character to assume a role that Bioware has defined. In ME, it's Commander Shepherd while in DA:O, it's the Warden. Among the ways we define are looks, powers, skills, and choices. To think that having voice acting somehow undermines ME as a RPG just is bizzare. I think forcing a mission and role on us is more restricting and makes it more role-defining than role-playing compared to the voice not being what you want it to be.
I do, thank you.
Roleplay requires you to immerse yourself into a character and make it your own.
I do by making the character look like I want him/her to, act as I want within the choices given to me, and speak as I want, again within the choices given to me.
A voice over doesn't give us that
In your opinion. You see, my choice is that I WANT my character to have a voice. I want to HEAR those words. I feel more in tune with a character who actually SPEAKS to a world when it speaks to her. That is a greater connection to me than "pick a line and see how the other character reacts."
it's a predetermined voice, not the one you want, not to mention that voice is restrictive in what tone it uses.
Not having a voice is restrictive as well. Having played ME1 and ME2, I never had a problem with the tone my character used: it matched what the dialogue was.
A dialogue wheel doesn't give us that because your responses are preset, to what? Good Bad and neutral?
And DA:O is different? You seem to think so but I never saw much of a difference if the variety of responses in DA vs either ME. In either game, it's, as I noted in another post, more or less postive, neutral, negative, investigate, and sometimes a persuade or intimidate choice.
And even so your dialogue option doesn't even match up to what wil lbe done/said. If I want my chracter to treaten the NPC I want them to say threaten not punch the other person/NPC talking to me.
Again, I don't see this problem in ME1 or ME2 unless you are referring to the Renegade/Paragon interrupts which you should figure out are going to end a conversation and might be a little extreme. I very rarely picked a dialogue choice in ME and was shocked that Shephard said something I wasn't expecting or intending.
I just do not see your arguements carrying any weight, I am sorry. I believe that for some reason you are overally invested in this. Honestly, questioning whether I understand what role-playing is happens to be silly. Whether ME or DA:O, we are creating a character to assume a role that Bioware has defined. In ME, it's Commander Shepherd while in DA:O, it's the Warden. Among the ways we define are looks, powers, skills, and choices. To think that having voice acting somehow undermines ME as a RPG just is bizzare. I think forcing a mission and role on us is more restricting and makes it more role-defining than role-playing compared to the voice not being what you want it to be.
#66
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:59
Noir201
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Tbh, devs need to inform us and explain why they changing alot about DA, and going for a mass effect style system, none of this dip feed crap, cause it losing them more respect, and putting a huge amount of fans off.
Still sitting on the fence on this, but i don't like what the stuff we are finding out from GI, Bioware, you got alot of people who stoped playing games, and rpgs for years cause of a game like dragon age.
Sorry, just more i read, more i getting annoyed at how DA 2 going to be.
Still sitting on the fence on this, but i don't like what the stuff we are finding out from GI, Bioware, you got alot of people who stoped playing games, and rpgs for years cause of a game like dragon age.
Sorry, just more i read, more i getting annoyed at how DA 2 going to be.
#67
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 03:59
LPPrince
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Azriel77 wrote...
Well, now we know why they didn't show this at E3, everyone would be screaming that this is just a mass effect console crap as soon as they saw the dialog wheel. Which is clearly seems to be.
ME2 was a fun game if you turned your brain off and watched the movie..er..I mean play the game. The people defending the dialog wheel saying that it will not limit your choices is deluding themselves. Its going to be the same super dumb down dialog we got in mass effect(in sparkling cinamatic quality...yippee).
I hate what eaware has become, whatever cred they built up is completely gone now.
Lets dissect this post and show what's wrong with people's thought processes.
1. No, everyone wouldn't be screaming that. Only people that have no faith in Bioware and proceed to hate something they've never even seen before. And yes, you haven't seen DA2's system, because there's no guarantee that its going to be a 100% copy of ME's.
2. ME2 actually was a fun game. A game you PLAYED, not WATCHED. And every credible reviewer would agree, as to why its one of the highest rated games of all time, unlike DAO.
3. We had up to 6 choices with the dialogue wheel, so its not anymore dumbed down than DAO's.
4. EAware? That's blind hate, that is if you hate EA and Bioware.
5. All their credibility is gone because of one new introduction to a game that's not even out yet. A new introduction you haven't seen, haven't played, and have hardly any information about. Riiiiight.
Way to go folks.
#68
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 04:01
TiaraBlade
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I don't actually have a problem with the wheel -- I have a problem with the voiced protagonist. I know a lot of people won't get that. When I'm reading the answers, I hear them in my voice -- it puts me more in the character. When I play a game that has a voiced protagonist, I feel disconnected -- it's someone else's voice.
I think that this is a more reasonable take on the matter. Ultimately, it is about taste. For some, putting it less tactfully than the poster above, they feel having a voice not specifically of their choosing undermines their image of the character and this disconnects them a bit. I understand that. I just wish that others would realize that some players like myself prefer a voiced character: Hearing only half a conversation personally takes me out of the experience and makes her a shade and mere avatar. A fully voiced protagonist simply is more alive to me.
That doesn't mean that DA2 won't be a good game. It most likely will be. But I won't feel the same level of immersion. Face it, when a different voice is responding to the companions than my own, I'm going to be watching a couple of people talk rather than being a part of the conversation.
With respect, I disagree. I feel more immersed with a voiced protagonist but that is my personal preference.
It's not for everyone, I understand, but I hope that we can agree to disagree without tearing into each other or thinking the other a lesser role-player because of it.
I think that this is a more reasonable take on the matter. Ultimately, it is about taste. For some, putting it less tactfully than the poster above, they feel having a voice not specifically of their choosing undermines their image of the character and this disconnects them a bit. I understand that. I just wish that others would realize that some players like myself prefer a voiced character: Hearing only half a conversation personally takes me out of the experience and makes her a shade and mere avatar. A fully voiced protagonist simply is more alive to me.
That doesn't mean that DA2 won't be a good game. It most likely will be. But I won't feel the same level of immersion. Face it, when a different voice is responding to the companions than my own, I'm going to be watching a couple of people talk rather than being a part of the conversation.
With respect, I disagree. I feel more immersed with a voiced protagonist but that is my personal preference.
It's not for everyone, I understand, but I hope that we can agree to disagree without tearing into each other or thinking the other a lesser role-player because of it.
Modifié par TiaraBlade, 10 juillet 2010 - 04:03 .
#69
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 04:01
orpheus333
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Suron wrote...
jesus. ****ing. christ. are you guys REALLY that lost in creativity and originality now Bio? you can't even ****ing keep things seperate......now you're going to clone ME's convo system into DA?
what. the. ****.
Its about finding features that work well and enable flow. Not chucking up **** because you want variation. If you had any interest Bioware have trialed several dialogue systems in Dragon Age DLC. Some good, some average. All leading to a better iteration of the system in the future.
We will see as we get more information.
You however need to calm the **** down and lay off the caffeine buddy.
#70
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 04:01
Lucy Glitter
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RunCDFirst wrote...
...
That was the only thing I didn't want. Ugh.
Me too.
#71
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 04:02
Efesell
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A more cinematic Dragon Age is something I can't buy fast enough.
#72
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 04:06
tmacairjordan87
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So glad they chose the dialog wheel and a voiced character over the old archaic way of picking 1 of 5 choices and watching your character stare blankly into space. Also glad to hear that the combat will be different on consoles (probably where the more action-like system comes in). Very happy with these changes so far, brings the DA series out of 2000 and into 2010...err 2011.
#73
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 04:07
TiaraBlade
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The people defending the dialog wheel saying that it will not limit your choices is deluding themselves.
What are you basing this on? No one has been able to rationally and adequately explain how one system limits choice compared to another. Unless DA:O had dialogue trees with 10 seperate options that I don't recall, you're just not making a case, I'm sorry.
What are you basing this on? No one has been able to rationally and adequately explain how one system limits choice compared to another. Unless DA:O had dialogue trees with 10 seperate options that I don't recall, you're just not making a case, I'm sorry.
#75
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 04:11
Guest_Puddi III_*
Guest_Puddi III_*
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Well, in light of the fact (right?) that our Fantastic Mr/s Hawke is voiced, I think it makes sense not to show the whole dialog option. If they did show the whole option, it would be a bit redundant, reading your option to yourself and selecting it, and then having Hawkevoice read it again for you.
I'd prefer for the character not to be voiced and to have the accompanying larger selection of dialog options, but whatever.
I'd prefer for the character not to be voiced and to have the accompanying larger selection of dialog options, but whatever.
