405 réponses à ce sujet

[RunCDFirst]

What's funny, is that people really love the Baldur's Gate dialogue system.
Is there a long list of unvoiced options? Yes.
Are a lot of the choices irrelevant, leading to the same answer? Yes.
Does this system often involve convoluted dialogue looping? Yes.

And yet, it is the system a large percentage of people prefer. There's not many that I have heard say it pulls them out of their character or that it reduces the importance of the interaction. I'm curious where this design concept really evolved from. I can understand the necessity of a dialogue for Mass Effect which was designed for the console. It is a lot easier to navigate a wheel with a joystick than a menu of text. However, Dragon Age is (or was) primarily a PC game and console port.

What does the wheel improve?
Navigation with non mouse input.
Implementation of voiced antagonist.
Reduction in dialogue looping.
Streamline of responses to ease writing burden.

What does the wheel detract from?
Roleplaying.
Creates unpredictable responses to a far greater system than the text responses.
Removes ownership of the character from the player.

It strikes me that, given the genre Dragon Age is developed for (Role-playing) these negatives would far outweigh the positives. Mass Effect sneaks by with the wheel by promoting itself as an action/rpg hybrid (with action first). Granted, perhaps BioWare wishes to move Dragon Age to the same category. The marketing hype certainly likes using the same type of wordplay.

lala_lover wrote...

I am more happy that the dialogue wheel isn't restricted to the good/neutral/or evil opitions like mass effect was than disappointed that there is a dialogue wheel (probably because I already saw this change coming). Hell, at this point I am just happy that they haven't added a morality system.

Yet 

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 10 juillet 2010 - 05:39 .

[jsachun]

Morality, without it being so damn obvious please.

[Phazor58]

FollowTheGourd wrote...

Phazor58 wrote...
Oh god is The Witcher doing this as well?  I haven't been paying enough attention to its development.

Yeah, it's spreading. There are some E3 videos showing it even...

Oh, I just watched part of one of their Alpha videos.  I actually prefer that style.  Due to the fact that there's a voice actor, I'd rather not have the exact statement because then I'm just hearing him say the same thing I read.  I actually hope Bioware implements a system similar to what The Witcher 2 is using since DA2 is using a VA as well.  The paraphrased lines are much better than the few words (that can be misleading) that ME uses in its dialogue wheel.

[Emma-Lath]

RunCDFirst wrote...

lala_lover wrote...

I am more happy that the dialogue wheel isn't restricted to the good/neutral/or evil opitions like mass effect was than disappointed that there is a dialogue wheel (probably because I already saw this change coming). Hell, at this point I am just happy that they haven't added a morality system.

Yet  

don't.even.suggest.a.thing.like.that.
lol, but seriously bioware adding a black and white morality system to DA2 would cause me to lose all hope in the game.
Good thing it appears they not doing that.... right bioware...? 

[Phazor58]

lala_lover wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

lala_lover wrote...

I am more happy that the dialogue wheel isn't restricted to the good/neutral/or evil opitions like mass effect was than disappointed that there is a dialogue wheel (probably because I already saw this change coming). Hell, at this point I am just happy that they haven't added a morality system.

Yet  

don't.even.suggest.a.thing.like.that.
lol, but seriously bioware adding a black and white morality system to DA2 would cause me to lose all hope in the game.
Good thing it appears they not doing that.... right bioware...? 

A Bioware rep confirmed in another topic that they're not adding a morality system.

[Emma-Lath]

Phazor58 wrote...

lala_lover wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

lala_lover wrote...

I am more happy that the dialogue wheel isn't restricted to the good/neutral/or evil opitions like mass effect was than disappointed that there is a dialogue wheel (probably because I already saw this change coming). Hell, at this point I am just happy that they haven't added a morality system.

Yet  

don't.even.suggest.a.thing.like.that.
lol, but seriously bioware adding a black and white morality system to DA2 would cause me to lose all hope in the game.
Good thing it appears they not doing that.... right bioware...? 

A Bioware rep confirmed in another topic that they're not adding a morality system.

I was just reading that thread but thanks for telling me:happy:

[eviant]

Awesome That was one of the things I was hoping for.

[RunCDFirst]

Phazor58 wrote...

A Bioware rep confirmed in another topic that they're not adding a morality system.

Yet 

I honestly don't see them adding a morality scale to the game. I mean... how would they incorporate it? You don't just throw a D&D alignment system at a franchise randomly. Put of the Renegade/Paragon dichotomy from Mass Effect? To what end, other than to get the DAO fans into a rapid frothing. I doubt they will add morality to a successful franchise that prizes itself on a lack of morality scale. 

[FollowTheGourd]

Phazor58 wrote...
Due to the fact that there's a voice actor, I'd rather not have the exact statement because then I'm just hearing him say the same thing I read.  I actually hope Bioware implements a system similar to what The Witcher 2 is using since DA2 is using a VA as well.  The paraphrased lines are much better than the few words (that can be misleading) that ME uses in its dialogue wheel.

Good point. Lightly paraphrased could be OK if it's simply to make it all less redundant, but then you'll inevitably start losing nuances, which to me makes choosing a response more interesting to begin with. But what can you do.

On the other hand, take a "sarcasm" icon and assumably some one-liner text in DA2: I hardly care if it's sarcastic; I care where I'm going with my response, and maybe if it'll be (deliberately) offensive sarcasm, or friendly, wry or witty even. I'm sure that'd be hard to always properly indicate even with full sentences, but almost impossible now. It's a little late to find out after you've made your choice. Might as well control a rudder and all you get to choose is left, right, or straight ahead.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 10 juillet 2010 - 06:15 .

[RunCDFirst]

Spear-Thrower wrote...

Dialog wheel is better than reading through five large sentences just to determine which one sounds best. What you're really doing is choosing the 'tone' of conversations and more words only give the illusion of greater choice. if you break the responses down they'd probably fall into set categories: nice response, indifferent, nasty, evil, sarcastic, etc.

That said, the wheel should offer more than simple "yes, no, I'm gonna kill you" options.

This is why I suggest the Alpha Protocol dialogue wheel. It cuts the pretense of allowing the player control the conversation.

[Hulk Hsieh]

Just play Song of Leiliana DLC to determine if you like the ME dialog system in DA.

While there isn't a wheel in the DLC, it does have the "select intention => voiced sentence" feature.

[MoMan313]

VO, yes, scarping the original story that came WITH DA:O HELL NO!!



Wheel... WTF IS THIS?!?



WHAT HAVE YOU DONE BIOWARE?!

[BroBear Berbil]

I'm fine with the wheel. Outcomes were largely in the same in Origins - it's the conversations that matter. So long as there's plenty of substance and different paths that might reveal different details I don't see the problem.

[errant_knight]

Anathemic wrote...

In addition to full VO <_< for the character of Hawke, our dialogue system is now that of Mass Effect's!

"Dragon Age II uses a conversation system similar to Mass Effect's,
where players select paraphrased versions of the dialogue from a wheel.
An icon in the middle of the wheel even illustrates the line's basic
intent (like aggressive or sarcastice), so you can focus more on the
interaction rather than reading and analyzing your dialogue choices."

quote from the GI issue

This was what I've been hearing, but I didn't know where that was coming from. That's terrible news. Dang. Everything I hear just gets worse.

[Noir201]

Why alot of the modders are up in arms about this info, no dev is giving a anwser to this yet, i won't blow my top till i see it real black and white yet tho.

[errant_knight]

OnionXI wrote...

I'm fine with the wheel. Outcomes were largely in the same in Origins - it's the conversations that matter. So long as there's plenty of substance and different paths that might reveal different details I don't see the problem.

No, the outcomes weren't the same, because you could say different things to different affect. You could choose what you wanted to say. With this, all you can choose is an attitude. Thinking about what you wanted to say was an important part of conversation. In fact it's hard to feel like you're really having a conversation if you're surprised by your own words. You can't roleplay Sheppard, you can only steer him/her.

Modifié par errant_knight, 10 juillet 2010 - 06:24 .

[errant_knight]

Solostran85 wrote...

Why Bioware? Most people like the DAO dialogue system better. Anyway DA2 sounds like a major let down. I wont even bother with it.

Why is the big question. I think it must all be aimed at decreasing conversation and dialogue choices to save money on voice acting. Otherwise, this makes no sense. They tried to decrease it in Awakening, and even more so with this. And yet, all the conversation was what appealed to many most about the game. It, and the freedom to control when and how you conversed with your companions made it feel like a real journey with real people. it set Dragon Age apart from other games in terms of involvement. And yet it's gone.

Modifié par errant_knight, 10 juillet 2010 - 06:29 .

[yiasmin]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Just play Song of Leiliana DLC to determine if you like the ME dialog system in DA.
While there isn't a wheel in the DLC, it does have the "select intention => voiced sentence" feature.

I haven't played Mass Effect and never will, so I don't know but my problem in Leliana's Song was that what options you chose often resulted in lines of dialogue that didn't have much to do with the option chosen. But I doubt DA2 will railroad you in the same way.
I was worried about DA:O when it was delayed for consoles, but I was wrong, so hopefully it'll be the same again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Please make this optional, BioWare. We can't roleplay if our characters are going to behave unpredictably.

If you're going to make DA2 a third-person narrative like Mass Effect is instad of first-person like DAO (I believe it was Ray Muzyka who first drew the distinction in an interview), I'm forced to ask under what circumstances we'll be given a first-person narrative again.

[Jahay]

Its now officially Dragon Effect 2, I don't care what anyone else says, unless they change it.

[RunCDFirst]

yiasmin wrote...
I haven't played Mass Effect and never will, so I don't know but my problem in Leliana's Song was that what options you chose often resulted in lines of dialogue that didn't have much to do with the option chosen.  

This is exactly what happens in Mass Effect. Most times it's just quirky and amusing. Sometimes the actual spoken dialogue is wildly off from the player option that the two might as well just be involved in separate conversations.

[Sylvius the Mad]

errant_knight wrote...

Why is the big question. I think it must all be aimed at decreasing conversation and dialogue choices to save money on voice acting.

If that's the goal, why are they voicing the PC?  Why are they fully voicing all the NPCs?

If voice-over's costs are so excessive that they force compromises in other design areas, then they should abandon voice-over.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RunCDFirst wrote...

This is exactly what happens in Mass Effect. Most times it's just quirky and amusing. Sometimes the actual spoken dialogue is wildly off from the player option that the two might as well just be involved in separate conversations.

This is exactly what happens in Mass Effect.  You might select an option that is phrased as a question, only to see Shepard not even ask a question, but instead make an assertion that you actually believe to be false (and thus never would have selected given the chance to avoid it).

Plus, even when the spoken line was short enough that it could have been displayed on the wheel, it wasn't.  Ever.  So either Mass Effect's dialogue wheel was implemented terribly, or its core intent was to be obfuscatory and inhibit roleplaying.

[term8]

andar91 wrote...

 I've never actually played Mass Effect 1/2, but I understand the concept of the wheel and while I would prefer to see what I'm going to say before hand, i hardly think it kills the game. As long as I can get involved in the story I'll be happy.

You would think.. i too shared your optimism before i dove into ME, and i got through it because of story.. but only because of story.  it was the little things that made me hate the wheel... for instance i always regret some dialog choices i make for the character so i reload and try different ones.. on A LOT of instance in ME two or more of the dialog responses resulted in shepard saying exactly the same thing... so i was like: why have those options on the wheel at all? I can understand if you have multiple options on a voiceless character that result in the same npc response.. because these things can happen... but having multiple options on a wheel of choice that are no choice at all is insulting!!!...

Long story short... the story in ME2 was not enough to allow me to overcome my hatred of the wheel (and impersonal, horribly voice acted shepard) and thus i never completed the game and will not be purchasing ME3.. no matter how BA the story is going to be ... i'll wait for the movie