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Good communication between gamers and games industry professionals. And Is striving for a healthy gaming culture is an exercise in futility?


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#1
Firky

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Hi All,

Remember the days when you’d write Lord British a letter in Runic and he’d write you one back? Communication between gamers and games industry professionals has always been exciting. As a 31 year old lifelong gamer who has, over the last few years, also had the opportunity to be employed as a freelancer in the games industry, I’m really aware of how gamers and games industry professionals communicate with one another, from both sides of the fence.

I came to this forum to tell the design team how much I enjoyed Dragon Age and how excited I am to learn about Dragon Age 2 but I couldn’t quite find the right place to post a comment. I thought I’d start a thread in the hopes some people might join me in sharing the love/anticipation while also having a dialogue about communication between gamers and games industry professionals. There are heaps of really positive posters around here and lots of really funny threads so I hope I haven’t misjudged the mood.

Here are three questions I’d like to ask to stimulate
discussion. (Feel free to add relevant questions.)

Is it OK to suggest/ask/demand things be included in a
sequel?

Is it OK to guess what a developer/publisher might be
thinking?

Is there a right/wrong way to criticise the game?

Also, another question based on later discussion - Is striving for a healthy gaming
culture is an exercise in futility?

Here is my contribution to the discussion.

Is it OK to suggest/ask/demand things be included in a sequel? Personally, I lean towards trusting the developers. They can’t provide everything for everyone but I do trust that they are putting a lot of thought into finding the best possible balance. And, sure, I want to know what happened to Morrigan. But I trust that, however, they continue the story, I’ll still enjoy it. And loose threads are good too, in a maddening kind of way.

Is it OK to guess what a developer/publisher might be thinking? Do we really know that such and such a publisher is trying to rush the poor downtrodden design team to make an inferior product quickly? Do we really think that designers these days are less passionate than an 80s backyard programmer/writer doing his solo thing? Our best guess may be correct but there is a very good chance that it isn’t. Having some insight now into how the games industry works from the inside, I’m surprised by how often otherwise perfectly logical speculation is wrong.

Is there a right/wrong way to criticise the game? I have to admit that I posted on another forum several months ago that I thought [Dragon Age NPC] was “poorly written”. After greater reflection, and mucking around with the Toolset and conversation editor, I’ve come to the conclusion that this was an unfair thing to say. I do occasionally get really immersed in a game and start throwing around emotionally driven criticism, like a lot of gamers. The NPC wasn’t poorly written though, I just “like” some of the other NPCs better. Also, although us gamers seem to think that writing for games is easy, because we’ve played so many, when you actually get your hands dirty, it’s really hard to do. So for me anyway, I’m going to criticise sparingly and carefully choose unemotional terminology.

 

Here is the feedback that I originally came to post. Thank you for this game/series. I consider it to be excellent value for money. I am totally intrigued by the qunari and the whole elf+human = human idea. So many implications! I had lots of fun playing the game and combat on the harder difficulties gave my brain a work out. I thought I would be disappointed having a party of only four but I grew to appreciate that choosing who to leave behind is as important as who you choose to take. Thanks again. I love the DA2 screenshot with the long bridge. Excited!

Modifié par Firky, 11 juillet 2010 - 11:09 .


#2
Firky

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OK, Guess I did misjudge the mood. (Or I just blithered on too long.)



Oh well. I think it's important. I'll give it one bump and let it die. (Promise.)

#3
Arttis

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I say people should be able to say whatever they feel like.


#4
Guest_gamerm_*

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Richard Garriot was awesome and miss origin UO is dead to me.

#5
Firky

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Arttis wrote...

I say people should be able to say whatever they feel like.


Well, sure. We all love free speech.

But what's the point of framing stuff in a way that's going to be ignored or potentially hurtful/stressful?

#6
Mary Kirby

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Firky, we always appreciate feedback, positive or negative, that is expressed in a reasonable manner.



Just... please don't send it to us in Runic. Or Qunari. Either one will make us cry.

#7
Arttis

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Mary Kirby wrote...

Firky, we always appreciate feedback, positive or negative, that is expressed in a reasonable manner.

Just... please don't send it to us in Runic. Or Qunari. Either one will make us cry.

what does qunari look like exactly?

#8
Arttis

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Firky wrote...

Arttis wrote...

I say people should be able to say whatever they feel like.


Well, sure. We all love free speech.

But what's the point of framing stuff in a way that's going to be ignored or potentially hurtful/stressful?

i say being ignored is a good thing.
of course many would disaggree

#9
SDNcN

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Mary Kirby wrote...

Firky, we always appreciate feedback, positive or negative, that is expressed in a reasonable manner.

Just... please don't send it to us in Runic. Or Qunari. Either one will make us cry.


Is there really a written form of Qunari?

If so it's time to head off to some Trek conventions and show those dirty Klingons the way of the Qun.

#10
Firky

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Arttis wrote...

what does qunari look like exactly?


I would also like to know that.


Mary Kirby wrote...

Firky, we always appreciate feedback,
positive or negative, that is expressed in a reasonable manner.

Just...
please don't send it to us in Runic. Or Qunari. Either one will make us
cry.


That's good to hear. I worry about you guys sometimes. (But, like I said in my OP, there are a LOT of positive - and funny - posts around here too.)

#11
Zerthus

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Mary Kirby wrote...

Firky, we always appreciate feedback, positive or negative, that is expressed in a reasonable manner.

Just... please don't send it to us in Runic. Or Qunari. Either one will make us cry.



Just because you said that I feel the need to master the speaking and writing of the entire Qunari language. Then cosplay a Qunari and totally pwn all other Quanris at a con with my awesome Qunari-ness. >.>

Anyone other than me wish we could play as Qunari main char? >///<

#12
Kalfear

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I miss the old Bioware days honestly.



Back when the good doctors were in charge, the information flowed fast and correctly!



I at one point tried to run my own gaming information site and NWN was coming out. 1 email and I got 30 questions answered with out a bat of a eye!



And they were real answers, none of this put off till later stuff.



I really miss the open communications between gamers and game companies.



Now its all a business for the magazines and how much ad space you buy for a good rating!



Well I dont want to buy those magazines, fact im willing to buy the game and expansion and some DLC should be enough that company can answer questions with in reason!



I think Bioware could easily answer the 3 biggest concerns on the forum right now, this instance and put so many at ease or flip side drive many away!



Lets face it, whats being asked about how much influencee will ME2 design have on this game pretty easy to answer. Simple lots or little to none.



I suspect the answer lots and hense the unwillingness to calm the forum down to be honest!



But yes, I miss the old days of having open lines of communication with the game developers!

#13
Firky

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@ Kalfear Thanks for a decent reply to my topic which was bombing severely (by which I mean, please don't see this as me hassling you...)

Following my second question "Is it OK to guess what a developer/publisher might be
thinking?" I'm also wondering if gamers sometimes assume too much.

How do you know that ... "Now its all a business for the magazines and how much ad space you buy for a good rating!"

As a games journalist (which is my freelance gig), them's fighting words. (Which I mean in the most respectful, non-agressive way.)

EDIT: I've reviewed games for a print magazine for 3 years and no-one has ever told me what score to give or anything like that. I am entirely unaware of what is being advertised in a mag. I just play the game, research it carefully and make a decision myself. I think you just pinpointed a really big misconception.

Modifié par Firky, 10 juillet 2010 - 05:35 .


#14
David Gaider

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Firky wrote...
Is it OK to suggest/ask/demand things be included in a
sequel?

Suggest and ask? Of course. Demand? Well, I guess that depends on your sense of entitlement.

We're always willing to entertain suggestions, so long as people realize we're going to decide for ourselves in the end. Those suggestions will be listened to based on their merit-- as well as how they're presented. It's a strange internet fallacy that suggests it doesn't matter how a point is made, that only being right matters. I don't know about anyone else, but if someone were to come into my office and scream at me and then poop on my desk I probably wouldn't care how good their point was. Communication is about more than just expressing opinions at each other.

Is it OK to guess what a developer/publisher might be thinking?


Why wouldn't this be okay? I'm not sure you'll be right, but it might be an interesting exercise to try. Being second-guessed kind of comes with the territory.

Is there a right/wrong way to criticise the game?


Personally? If I'm about to criticize someone I always try to find something good to tell them as well... or at least try to be as constructive as I can. I find people are more willing to listen that way. Like I said above, it would be wrong to think that developers are beholden to listen to anyone's opinion... your contribution here depends entirely on what you make of it.

Not that everyone comes here to contribute, or to make their criticism count for anything more than venting their anger/disappointment. And that's fine, I suppose. But if you intend for your criticism to be treated seriously by anyone (developers or other fans alike) you should make an effort to express it in the same way you'd wish it would be expressed to yourself.

#15
ITSSEXYTIME

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Well i'm sure if Bioware wasn't binded by Marketing's chains they would be more than happy to put our worries to rest with some awesome information. I think the main wall between dev to community communication is stuff like NDA's and marketing trying to gradually build up hype and excitement over time. It doesn't help that the community overanalyzes every word they say

looking for hidden meaning.

#16
Kalfear

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how I know is its pretty common knowledge for number of years now some web sites sell their reveiws! ex- Workers from those sites have come out and said so! Do they have agendas? Of course they do but any look at why some games get 10s and others get 7s and, well personally I beleive the stories!



No proff, just seems pretty obvious when you play a game and its bugging out every 30 minutes yet some 3 letter website said game is 100% complete and bug free. Put two and two togather and you get 4 everytime!



As for assumptions. Sure as players we assume to much. Im just as guilty as the next guy.



But heres the thing, I HATED, absolutely loathed Mass Effect 2. It wasnt the game I promised (on multiple occations), it wasnt the game they said they were designing.



So I have that stuck in my mind already.



Then Bioware comes out and tells me DA2 is this this and this which reads as a press release for ME2 and included in that press release is multiple ME2 designs which IMO are NOT improvements over the original DA:O design.



How do you not take the next logical step? Assumption? Yes, most definately but its a educated assumption based on released information.



Best way to avoid those assumptions, release FULL information explaning things, not a sentance here and a sentance there for people to fill in with assumptions!



As for freelance. I have all the respect for freelance writers. I refuse to read gaming websites anymore because of the pay for ad space issue. I read freelance writers who actually play the full game before giving it a 10/10 score! LOL, and Ive yet to see a freelancer give any of these 10/10. 9.5/10 games scores that high after they play them.



Coincidence? You tell me :)

#17
Arttis

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Did you guys steal my idea about the half blade half handle and calling it a spear idea?

Please do not tell me your also gonna have it use the 2h weapon tree...although it would be nice to have my idea heard and used.Then again i love being ignored.Aw man can not decide.

#18
Firky

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@ Kalfear. Fair enough. I can only tell my experience - that I've never been asked to review a game favourably. Also, I've never given a 10/10 but I will when the opportunity arises.



@ David Gaider. Thankyou.

#19
Deviija

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Indeed, quality communication and decorum and constructive critique are key. The devs (particularly the writing team for the Dragon Age franchise) have always been very interactive and involved with us forumites. It is something I have never taken for granted. Tis a very rare thing to be able to interact on such a personal level with the people making the games.

#20
Antiuna

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I think it's fine to ask for something to be placed in a game, demanding is sort of pompous. I agree with you, Firky, on this point, I believe.



You can't really stop from guessing what they're planning, it sort of just happens. Is it OK to assume that your guess is correct - probably not. We make the guesses based off all sorts of random crap already in our heads, so unless its an exceptionally well-informed guess, you may be wrong! (hell you may be wrong even if it is well-informed) Ramble. I think some of the crying from assumption is interesting, it really does let us think about "what made me like ME vs. DA, what do I want to have preserved from DA?"



On communication: I'm still impressed with BioWare's forums. I'd almost make the exception of the TOR forums, but I think there is more dev/mod participation there that on other MMO's I've followed. The fact that devs make posts, and in us lay folk's threads, makes me happy (Hello BW devs! I <3 you all).

#21
Jimmy Fury

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David Gaider wrote...
but if someone were to come into my office and scream at me and then poop on my desk I probably wouldn't care how good their point was. Communication is about more than just expressing opinions at each other.

Jimmy Fury's List of Ways to convince Gaider to do things:
1: Ask Politely.
2: Draw up a detailed and logically sound argument for my point complete with references
3: Go into his office screaming and poop on his desk
4: Cupcakes!

Thanks!

To the OP and totally on topic.: I'd agree with others that asking questions and speculating is fine. I do get very bothered by people who claim their speculations are cold hard facts though. But then I'm a stickler for logical arguments and I will chomp on logical fallacy like a hungry gator at a puppy mill.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 10 juillet 2010 - 05:52 .


#22
Jestina

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He's getting all psychologist on you. In fact it sound almost like the psychologist I go to. :) If i'm going to get paddled, I don't want it cushioned.

#23
RunCDFirst

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David Gaider wrote...
 I don't know about anyone else, but if someone were to come into my office and scream at me and then poop on my desk I probably wouldn't care how good their point was.


Even if they drove all the way out to Edmonton to do it?

#24
phaonica

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Jimmy Fury wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
but if someone were to come into my office and scream at me and then poop on my desk I probably wouldn't care how good their point was. Communication is about more than just expressing opinions at each other.

Jimmy Fury's List of Ways to convince Gaider to do things:
1: Ask Politely.
2: Draw up a detailed and logically sound argument for my point complete with references
3: Go into his office screaming and poop on his desk
4: Cupcakes!

Thanks!


Posted Image LOL

#25
Jestina

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Do I need a Visa to get into Canada?