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[CLime]

(Contains spoilers for various other BioWare games.)

We already know DA2 is going to change or remove several features present in DA:O.  The eponymous Origins are out, for one.  The character's background and race are both set, as is his or her name.  Also out is the voiceless protagonist and full dialogue menu system used in DA:O, as well as past BioWare titles like Jade Empire and KotOR, in favor of a fully voiced menu wheel like the one used in Mass Effect  The media that has been released so far, sparse as it is, has focused exclusively on Hawke, the new player character- a stark constrast to DA:O's campaign, which focused much more on the game world and the player companions early on, and avoided characterizing the PC outside of the Sacred Ashes trailer.

As with any changes to a beloved franchise, these announcements have stirred whispers of dissent among some factions of the player base, concern that the protagonist is becoming "Shepardized," essentially inhibiting the player's ability to characterize him or her by predetermining large portions of his or her past and personality.  Fans would certainly have a right to complain about this kind of homogenization- not everyone who enjoys one BioWare franchise enjoys all the others.  I don't feel fans need to worry yet, however.  At this point, there's little suggesting DA2 will recieve the full Mass Effect treatment, and just as much pointing to even more potential for characterization than its predecessor.

The biggest check against the Shepard-Hawke comparison, and the best thing to help worried roleplayers get a god night's sleep, is the difference in the two franchises.  From the very beginning, or near to it, Mass Effect was planned out as Shepard's Trilogy.  BioWare knew the would be making three games, and that all three games would star the same character.  They wanted players to be able to follow the story of "their Shepard" as he battles to save the galaxy, but they also had to maintain some consistency across all three games.  For every game, there would certain checkpoints Shepard would have to cross.  Shepard could choose to save or abandon the council at the end of ME1, but he also had to defeat Saren and Sovereign- he couldn't pull a Darth Revan and become a villain himself.  BioWare allows the player a good bit of freedom while fulfilling major plot objectives, but ultimately they need to be sure that no matter what decisions Shepard makes, he'll be able to conquer whatever ultimate evil is lurking at the end of ME3.  We still have very little information on DA2, but what we do have thus far suggests that the single game will follow Hawke's story to relative completion, and thus not be bound quite so strictly as our Vanderloo-inspired friend.

Take a look at the Five Facts About Hawke from Game Informer if you haven't already, stickied on this same forum.  With the first four, it's understandable that some parties would believe Hawke is indeed being modeled on Shepard; fully voiced, preset to human, partly defined history and location.  The fifth, however, throws a wrench in the conspiracy machine: DA2 will follow ten years of Hawke's life, with the player determining Hawke's "history, relationships, and regrets...all in service to answering the larger question: Who is the Champion of Kirkwall?"  The ten years detail should be the first to jump out.  It implies, among other things, the lack of an central urgent threat that the player must solve, differing from both the Reapers in ME and the Blight in DA:O.  Instead, the fifth fact promises, it will be the protagonist who provides the impetus for the narrative.  No doubt there will still be Big Problems to solve and bosses to vanquish, but it sounds more like DA2 will be broken up into smaller chapters, with Hawke solving one problem, then the game jumping ahead a few months or years to witness the effects of the player's choices, both on the protagonist and his or her surroundings.  That's a lot to read into a blurb, I'll admit, but it's no more than the doomsayers who predict DA2 being no more than Shepard running around with qunari instead of krogans.

In fact, all the talk of a decade-long saga following the path of the protagonist gives me hope for something, the one thing that's been sorely lacking from BioWare's title's in the last five years: full spectrum morality.  Mass Effect has its Paragon and Renegade, but together they only comprise half of a DnD alignment chart- you pick between Lawful and Chaotic, but you're still always Good.  Jade Empire was BioWare's last game to actually allow the player to be evil (or Closed Fist, in game terminology) right to the end.  In fact, the evil ending was arguably the best one- the player vanquishes the big bad and installs him or herself as supreme ruler, enjoying a long and prosperous reign as an invincible god-king.  If DA2 allows Hawke to be anything other than the savior of the land, it will diverge even further from Mass Effect than its predecessor.  Sure, Origins let you be a pretty bad dude in certain situations, whether through poisoning the Ashes of Andraste, killing Arl Eamon's son or wife, purging the Circle of Mages or slaughering the Dalish Elves, but you could never become a tyrant after ending the Blight.

In short, fans of all the roleplaying DA:O offered have the option of being optimistic rather than pessimistic, hoping that the enhanced focus on the player character and his or her personal saga will allow for greater manueverability and more avenues for characerization.  With what we know so far, this is at least as possible as any alternative.

Epilogue: In case you're the type who's not content without an axe to grind, this final list is for you.  You can resume your Shepard-Hawke comparison rants when all or most of these conditions are met:
-Hawke becomes the sole face of DA2
-Hawke's face is exactly the same in all DA2 media
-Said face is revealed to be a custom texture that looks much better than anything you can cook up in the character builder
-The "ten years" promise is met by an hour-long introduction with Young Hawke followed by the game's only time leap to rest-of-the-game Adult Hawke, Fallout 3-style
-Hawke is announced to be voiced by Mark Meer. (He does a great Keith Morrison impression.)

Until then, history suggests that BioWare knows what they're doing.  The changes one person fears will ruin the franchise may turn out to unlock its hidden potential.

[Kijin]

Excellent post. Everything you wrote is spot on, but I imagine it's not going to stop the doomsayers at all, I'm afraid. Their reactions are more emotional, then logical it seems.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Thanks for an intelligent, thoughtful post

A few quibbles--I doubt Hawke will become the sole face of DA2. Hell, even Sheploo had to share the spotlight, and we've already seen concept art of the woman with white hair...whom I assume has to be important if she made it onto the cover alongside Hawke.

Now that you mention the fifth point on Hawke, the whole "Who is the Champion of Kirkwall" thing reminds me kind of PS:T. Who is the Nameless One? What can change the nature of a man? That whole schtick. And that's not a bad thing. DA:O did not have the intense focus on a personal story; it was about the Blight, ultimately, as evidenced by how poorly things could turn out for the unfortunate Warden. Having a very personal journey could be really cool.  The DA series is the story of a world, not one individual.  DA:O was the story of one important event in the world.  DA2 could very well be the story of one pivotal person.  Sounds kinda cool.

Also, if either Mark Meer or Jennifer Hale voices the protagonist, I'ma have a hard time playing.  I love Hale, don't get me wrong, but every time I hear her voice now, I think Shepard.  Or sometimes Avatar Kyoshi or Bastila.  We need fresh voices.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 10 juillet 2010 - 05:46 .

[CruserBoii]

I love you for this thread.

Everything you've said is right, and I think most of these people need to wait for information before jumping to their conclusions.

[Felfenix]

All the whining morons will just TL;DR. Great post though, OP. You definitely get it.

[MoMan313]

I SWEAR if they so much as DITCH the import character option...

I'm going to start a riot against Bioware....



WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT TO PLAYING ALL INTO THE ORIGINS IF THEY WERE GOING TO SCARP IT?!?!



Perhaps we ARE jumping to conclusions.. but if this turns out to be as the sole new face of DA... Im snapping..

[Noir201]

Good post, just most of the problems is with people (including myself) is the lack of a FaQ with anwsers to some of this dip feed info, bioware has made great games, but since awakening and some very poor dlc content, plus number of other stuff, fans are asking questions.

Also alot of the modders who know a thing or two about these type of games, know that with some of the info, it not going to be like DA:O, and a simple anwser to one question, toolset yes or no? isn't getting anwsered.

It's simple things like that, with alittle feedback, can fix alot of the rage on the forums.

[angelgaidin]

MoMan313 wrote...

I SWEAR if they so much as DITCH the import character option...
I'm going to start a riot against Bioware....

WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT TO PLAYING ALL INTO THE ORIGINS IF THEY WERE GOING TO SCARP IT?!?!

Perhaps we ARE jumping to conclusions.. but if this turns out to be as the sole new face of DA... Im snapping..

When did they ever confirm importing characters?  That post-game save might just be to make sure your big decisions get carried over.  Even if you don't play as your Warden, it would be rather jarring if your Warden crowned Anora but in DA2, Hawke hears about Ferelden's king, Alistair.  I don't ever recall hearing about character importing in anything but DA:A.

[Felfenix]

MoMan313 wrote...

I SWEAR if they so much as DITCH the import character option...
I'm going to start a riot against Bioware....

WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT TO PLAYING ALL INTO THE ORIGINS IF THEY WERE GOING TO SCARP IT?!?!

Perhaps we ARE jumping to conclusions.. but if this turns out to be as the sole new face of DA... Im snapping..

This isn't an expansion, nor is it Mass Effect where every game has to revolve around one character and event.

The POINT of playing Origins was to play an enjoyable game. The same "point" of playing any game. The origins were for the origin of the Warden in DAO. Not every game in the world has to import. Considering DA2 takes place in a totally distant part of Thedas, I don't see what the point would be in importing. From the sound of things, with the game taking place over a 10 year period, it sounds like the entire game will be the "origin" of the Champion of Kirkwall. Instead of the "depth" of your character being explored in some cheap 10 minute, origin, you'll develop your character throughout the course of the game, spanning 10 years.

[Felfenix]

angelgaidin wrote...

MoMan313 wrote...

I SWEAR if they so much as DITCH the import character option...
I'm going to start a riot against Bioware....

WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT TO PLAYING ALL INTO THE ORIGINS IF THEY WERE GOING TO SCARP IT?!?!

Perhaps we ARE jumping to conclusions.. but if this turns out to be as the sole new face of DA... Im snapping..

When did they ever confirm importing characters?  That post-game save might just be to make sure your big decisions get carried over.  Even if you don't play as your Warden, it would be rather jarring if your Warden crowned Anora but in DA2, Hawke hears about Ferelden's king, Alistair.  I don't ever recall hearing about character importing in anything but DA:A.

The post-game saves are for DAO expansions. Fortunately, DA2 doesn't take place in Ferelden, so Bioware can easily sidestep your "But who rules Ferelden?" issue.

Modifié par Felfenix, 10 juillet 2010 - 06:18 .

[Anathemic]

CLime wrote...

(Contains spoilers for various other BioWare games.)

We already know DA2 is going to change or remove several features present in DA:O.  The eponymous Origins are out, for one.  The character's background and race are both set, as is his or her name.  Also out is the voiceless protagonist and full dialogue menu system used in DA:O, as well as past BioWare titles like Jade Empire and KotOR, in favor of a fully voiced menu wheel like the one used in Mass Effect  The media that has been released so far, sparse as it is, has focused exclusively on Hawke, the new player character- a stark constrast to DA:O's campaign, which focused much more on the game world and the player companions early on, and avoided characterizing the PC outside of the Sacred Ashes trailer.

As with any changes to a beloved franchise, these announcements have stirred whispers of dissent among some factions of the player base, concern that the protagonist is becoming "Shepardized," essentially inhibiting the player's ability to characterize him or her by predetermining large portions of his or her past and personality.  Fans would certainly have a right to complain about this kind of homogenization- not everyone who enjoys one BioWare franchise enjoys all the others.  I don't feel fans need to worry yet, however.  At this point, there's little suggesting DA2 will recieve the full Mass Effect treatment, and just as much pointing to even more potential for characterization than its predecessor.

The biggest check against the Shepard-Hawke comparison, and the best thing to help worried roleplayers get a god night's sleep, is the difference in the two franchises.  From the very beginning, or near to it, Mass Effect was planned out as Shepard's Trilogy.  BioWare knew the would be making three games, and that all three games would star the same character.  They wanted players to be able to follow the story of "their Shepard" as he battles to save the galaxy, but they also had to maintain some consistency across all three games.  For every game, there would certain checkpoints Shepard would have to cross.  Shepard could choose to save or abandon the council at the end of ME1, but he also had to defeat Saren and Sovereign- he couldn't pull a Darth Revan and become a villain himself.  BioWare allows the player a good bit of freedom while fulfilling major plot objectives, but ultimately they need to be sure that no matter what decisions Shepard makes, he'll be able to conquer whatever ultimate evil is lurking at the end of ME3.  We still have very little information on DA2, but what we do have thus far suggests that the single game will follow Hawke's story to relative completion, and thus not be bound quite so strictly as our Vanderloo-inspired friend.

Take a look at the Five Facts About Hawke from Game Informer if you haven't already, stickied on this same forum.  With the first four, it's understandable that some parties would believe Hawke is indeed being modeled on Shepard; fully voiced, preset to human, partly defined history and location.  The fifth, however, throws a wrench in the conspiracy machine: DA2 will follow ten years of Hawke's life, with the player determining Hawke's "history, relationships, and regrets...all in service to answering the larger question: Who is the Champion of Kirkwall?"  The ten years detail should be the first to jump out.  It implies, among other things, the lack of an central urgent threat that the player must solve, differing from both the Reapers in ME and the Blight in DA:O.  Instead, the fifth fact promises, it will be the protagonist who provides the impetus for the narrative.  No doubt there will still be Big Problems to solve and bosses to vanquish, but it sounds more like DA2 will be broken up into smaller chapters, with Hawke solving one problem, then the game jumping ahead a few months or years to witness the effects of the player's choices, both on the protagonist and his or her surroundings.  That's a lot to read into a blurb, I'll admit, but it's no more than the doomsayers who predict DA2 being no more than Shepard running around with qunari instead of krogans.

In fact, all the talk of a decade-long saga following the path of the protagonist gives me hope for something, the one thing that's been sorely lacking from BioWare's title's in the last five years: full spectrum morality.  Mass Effect has its Paragon and Renegade, but together they only comprise half of a DnD alignment chart- you pick between Lawful and Chaotic, but you're still always Good.  Jade Empire was BioWare's last game to actually allow the player to be evil (or Closed Fist, in game terminology) right to the end.  In fact, the evil ending was arguably the best one- the player vanquishes the big bad and installs him or herself as supreme ruler, enjoying a long and prosperous reign as an invincible god-king.  If DA2 allows Hawke to be anything other than the savior of the land, it will diverge even further from Mass Effect than its predecessor.  Sure, Origins let you be a pretty bad dude in certain situations, whether through poisoning the Ashes of Andraste, killing Arl Eamon's son or wife, purging the Circle of Mages or slaughering the Dalish Elves, but you could never become a tyrant after ending the Blight.

In short, fans of all the roleplaying DA:O offered have the option of being optimistic rather than pessimistic, hoping that the enhanced focus on the player character and his or her personal saga will allow for greater manueverability and more avenues for characerization.  With what we know so far, this is at least as possible as any alternative.

Epilogue: In case you're the type who's not content without an axe to grind, this final list is for you.  You can resume your Shepard-Hawke comparison rants when all or most of these conditions are met:
-Hawke becomes the sole face of DA2
-Hawke's face is exactly the same in all DA2 media
-Said face is revealed to be a custom texture that looks much better than anything you can cook up in the character builder
-The "ten years" promise is met by an hour-long introduction with Young Hawke followed by the game's only time leap to rest-of-the-game Adult Hawke, Fallout 3-style
-Hawke is announced to be voiced by Mark Meer. (He does a great Keith Morrison impression.)

Until then, history suggests that BioWare knows what they're doing.  The changes one person fears will ruin the franchise may turn out to unlock its hidden potential.

No, I can handle VO to an extent (probally not) and maybe.. nvm dialogue wheel is a nono, but this, is this confirmed anywhere? I do not want to have Hawke sound EXACTLY like Shepard.

[RunCDFirst]

We are aware that every origin had a preset surname right? At least this time, I feel, the game will actually use it.

[Kijin]

No, he's saying that you can ONLY resume your Shepard-Hawke comparisons only if the list at the bottom of his post is true.

[Felfenix]

Anathemic wrote...

No, I can handle VO to an extent (probally not) and maybe.. nvm dialogue wheel is a nono, but this, is this confirmed anywhere? I do not want to have Hawke sound EXACTLY like Shepard.

If you read what you were quoting, you'd see he said, basically, that the haters can freely compare Shepard and Hawke only if the conditions he listed are met, meaning, they can start complaining "Hawke=Shepard" IF Mark Meer turned out to be his VA, but he's not, so they should sit tight and not get worked up over assumptions. You know what they say about assumptions.

[GN-Lelldorianx]

Nice analysis and good interpretations of Bioware's past. I'm not one to commit my mind to anything like this until further in the development (or more likely, PR) cycle, but still nice to think it's all true!

[Ahzrei]

Much love OP. A bit long winded, but you said something that needed to be said.

Kijin wrote...

Excellent post. Everything you wrote is spot on, but I imagine it's not going to stop the doomsayers at all, I'm afraid. Their reactions are more emotional, then logical it seems.

It wont stop the doomsayers at all. I doubt they'd stop crying havok long enough to read it. It's pretty long.


EDIT: Also, people have a right to cry havok, whether or not it's reasonable, and whether or not they meet your conditions.

Modifié par Ahzrei, 10 juillet 2010 - 06:24 .

[angelgaidin]

Felfenix wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

MoMan313 wrote...

I SWEAR if they so much as DITCH the import character option...
I'm going to start a riot against Bioware....

WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT TO PLAYING ALL INTO THE ORIGINS IF THEY WERE GOING TO SCARP IT?!?!

Perhaps we ARE jumping to conclusions.. but if this turns out to be as the sole new face of DA... Im snapping..

When did they ever confirm importing characters?  That post-game save might just be to make sure your big decisions get carried over.  Even if you don't play as your Warden, it would be rather jarring if your Warden crowned Anora but in DA2, Hawke hears about Ferelden's king, Alistair.  I don't ever recall hearing about character importing in anything but DA:A.

The post-game saves are for DAO expansions. Fortunately, DA2 doesn't take place in Ferelden, so Bioware can easily sidestep your "But who rules Ferelden?" issue.

I meant it as an example.  If you clash with Ferelden forces, it may become important.  Regardless, I feel like all of DA:O and DA:A's big decisions will be mentioned in codex entries for DA2, at the least.

[Anathemic]

Felfenix wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

No, I can handle VO to an extent (probally not) and maybe.. nvm dialogue wheel is a nono, but this, is this confirmed anywhere? I do not want to have Hawke sound EXACTLY like Shepard.

If you read what you were quoting, you'd see he said, basically, that the haters can freely compare Shepard and Hawke only if the conditions he listed are met, meaning, they can start complaining "Hawke=Shepard" IF Mark Meer turned out to be his VA, but he's not, so they should sit tight and not get worked up over assumptions. You know what they say about assumptions.

Ahh thank you, I read it through too fast, I was thrown off by the Epilogue meaning a 'summary'

[Kijin]

Heh, you're probably right Ahzrei. As far as I'm concerned, this thread should be stickied.

[Felfenix]

Anathemic wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

No, I can handle VO to an extent (probally not) and maybe.. nvm dialogue wheel is a nono, but this, is this confirmed anywhere? I do not want to have Hawke sound EXACTLY like Shepard.

If you read what you were quoting, you'd see he said, basically, that the haters can freely compare Shepard and Hawke only if the conditions he listed are met, meaning, they can start complaining "Hawke=Shepard" IF Mark Meer turned out to be his VA, but he's not, so they should sit tight and not get worked up over assumptions. You know what they say about assumptions.

Ahh thank you, I read it through too fast, I was thrown off by the Epilogue meaning a 'summary'

Yeah, I had to read that part over a couple times myself. XD

[The Blue bird]

MoMan313 wrote...

I SWEAR if they so much as DITCH the import character option...(you're playing as Hawke, that simple)
I'm going to start a riot against Bioware....(No you won't)

WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT TO PLAYING ALL INTO THE ORIGINS IF THEY WERE GOING TO SCARP IT?!?!

Perhaps we ARE jumping to conclusions.. but if this turns out to be as the sole new face of DA... Im snapping..(Fair enough, then I wish you well on your road to mental recovery if that is indeed the case)

I dunno, for the same reason you play every other game. For the enjoyment aspect.

Plus this has been stated a few times on the boards. The reason Origins is in the name refers to the in-game origins (obviously) & the origin of the Dragon Age franchise. Origins being the game that introduces us to the whole world and how the lives of six, fairly broad, archetypes in this world play out. Both amongst their peers and how the world, at large, treats them. Dragon Age was never intended to be the story of the Warden.

[Maniac600]

I'm not worried about DA2 being a fantasy ME 2, I'm worried that ME 2's success will dictate what changes are made to DA2.



What works with one series may not necessarily work with another. And while I trust Bioware not to make this mistake, these changes leave a nasty aftertaste in my mouth concerning the future of Bioware games. I truly hope that Voice Acted Main characters won't become the norm for this company, as so many games before have been excellent without them.



ME 1 and 2 was a breath of fresh air and shook things up with more action, voiced dialogue and a set main character. I had no problems with this. But it doesn't mean I want every Bioware game to be made the same way.



Perhaps I'm just barking at the moon, but that's my two cents...

[PsychoYoshi]

Although the cynic in me is forcing me to err more on the side of "DA2 is inheriting too much from ME", this is an excellent post. I especially like the fourth paragraph, and the timespan probably will allow for more dramatic consequences to appear from player actions. If the timespan is episodic, I'd say that's even better...that would signal to me that you'd be able to re-unite with some of the original cast later in the game (or, at the very least, you can see some ramifications of actions that you took in DA1). That would be significantly more palatable for me.

I'm currently pessimistic, but I'm not discounting the game until I get more info--I made that mistake with Paper Mario a long time ago.

[Maniac600]

PsychoYoshi wrote...

Although the cynic in me is forcing me to err more on the side of "DA2 is inheriting too much from ME", this is an excellent post. I especially like the fourth paragraph, and the timespan probably will allow for more dramatic consequences to appear from player actions. If the timespan is episodic, I'd say that's even better...that would signal to me that you'd be able to re-unite with some of the original cast later in the game (or, at the very least, you can see some ramifications of actions that you took in DA1). That would be significantly more palatable for me.

I'm currently pessimistic, but I'm not discounting the game until I get more info--I made that mistake with Paper Mario a long time ago.

Mmm, indeed, the good thing about pessimism is rather low standards; impressions are relatively easy for people like you and me.

While the dialogue system allegedly being implemented into DA 2 is very similar to the ME 1/2 one, it apparently has been significantly revamped, which actually makes me rather happy.

Indeed, the timespan given does leave plenty of room for gameplay, while DA: O was rather constricted (i.e. get an army together before Denerim is levelled). Hopefully they draw the game out and use this long period to its full potential.

[Mike Laidlaw]

A decade of history does offer a lot of potential, doesn't it? You could tell a mighty deep story in that period of time.



Perhaps we shall do just that!