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[CLime]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Two, actually. Looking after my newborn, and staving off sleep deprivation.

Congrats! Hope little Hawke Shepard Laidlaw is doing well.

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

One of my favorite moments in my career, actually. Those outtakes where written by Luke Kristjanson (who has written for just about every game we've made, and recently took pen to hand to write for Leliana's Song), in real time.

He was putting them together as we wrapped some of the last sessions, sending them to me to look over and then pass on to the voice actors who had some spare studio time to kill The total turn-around time from written to recorded was about 30 minutes. Given how tired we all were at the end of Jade, I'm still stunned at how funny Luke made those on such short notice.

"I don't want to get typecast as a dangerous loner, you know? Speaking of which, check me out this summer in Dangerous Loner 9..." - Sagazious Zu.

That's cool anecdote, thanks.  It caught me totally off-guard at the time, which just made it funnier.  Water's Edge: The Beach Razor Nightmare really was a classic coming of age story.  I had forgotten about the bits with Henpecked Hou and his wife, but those were great too.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

This is, in fact, why we use paraphrases on our dialog wheels, yes. Well reasoned.

I thought so.

Unfortunately, it breaks roleplaying.  Please stop doing it.

Do you see how it breaks roleplaying?  We're routinely surprised (and often shocked and appalled) by what our characters are saying.  It's unconscionable.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 12 juillet 2010 - 06:45 .

[Deviija]

Hopefully with DA2's intent tags (putting adjectives/descriptors in next to the paraphrases to help explain what meaning - or perhaps action - the paraphrase is trying to convey) will help with that, Sylvius. Of course, if I'm still choosing 'This interview is over! (determined)' and still punching out reporters from out of nowhere, then yes, it's a problem.

[Vaeliorin]

Deviija wrote...
Hopefully with DA2's intent tags (putting adjectives/descriptors in next to the paraphrases to help explain what meaning - or perhaps action - the paraphrase is trying to convey) will help with that, Sylvius. Of course, if I'm still choosing 'This interview is over! (determined)' and still punching out reporters from out of nowhere, then yes, it's a problem.

I'd be almost satisfied if I didn't end up flirting with a subordinate when I was thinking I was telling her that it would help me out if she'd go do what she was just talking about doing.  Also, not threatening law enforcement with a "paragon" choice.

But no...I hate the dialogue wheel.  The tone bit might make it tolerable, but it's still an awful mechanic for a role-playing game.

[Morroian]

Addai67 wrote...
We're already told that Hawke starts out as a human refugee in Lothering and becomes Champion of Kirkwall.

It sounds like to me that we're losing the blank slate and still being told all starting places and outcomes are equivalent.

We aren't actually told he becomes the Champion of Kirkwall, from whats been said the actual champion of Kirkwall is something of a mystery.

You've said elsewhere that you liked DAO for its literary feel, well it sounds to me like DA2 is taking this a step further, the description of the game sounds even more literary with devices like a flashback structure and a focus on choices and consequences.

Sure with a fully voiced character you'll be slightly more removed from the main character but you'll still get to create the character and customise it, albeit within the restrictions of being human. It sounds like the player will also get to dictate the main characters characterisation  during the game more than in DAO. 

[Deviija]

Vaeliorin wrote...

But no...I hate the dialogue wheel.  The tone bit might make it tolerable, but it's still an awful mechanic for a role-playing game.

That I do not dispute.  It is a terrible mechanic and one that I do not enjoy.  However, there will be no Paragon/Renegade/Neutral alignment format in DA2.  It will simply be a list of choices (paraphrased with intent descriptors) on a wheel format, which -- as Mary Kirby has said -- is no different than if we had a screen with a numerical list of dialogue choices on it.  They are both still lists and are offering choice variety.  Or so the devs have assured me/us.  

And there will be factors in how Hawke's personality will come across and be formed.  What those are, I do not know, but it sounds that tone/inflection/personality can change somewhat in delivery in the game.  I'll need to hear more about this first, of course.  

A lot of wait and see right now.

Modifié par Deviija, 12 juillet 2010 - 07:42 .

[Xandurpein]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Deviija wrote...
Hopefully with DA2's intent tags (putting adjectives/descriptors in next to the paraphrases to help explain what meaning - or perhaps action - the paraphrase is trying to convey) will help with that, Sylvius. Of course, if I'm still choosing 'This interview is over! (determined)' and still punching out reporters from out of nowhere, then yes, it's a problem.

I'd be almost satisfied if I didn't end up flirting with a subordinate when I was thinking I was telling her that it would help me out if she'd go do what she was just talking about doing.  Also, not threatening law enforcement with a "paragon" choice.

But no...I hate the dialogue wheel.  The tone bit might make it tolerable, but it's still an awful mechanic for a role-playing game.

I can see why Bioware wants to go with the dialogue wheel. D Gaider explained it quite well. you can create more life like situations where people snap back and forth at each toher. Looking at Mass Effect, conversations can be to flow in a more cinematic (terrribly overused word, I know) way.

It must be very tempting from an author's perspective, to be able to write such conversations. It allows the author to pour more varied emotions into the game. I do fear however that it will give the author more tools at the expense of the player.

In the end it does break the spell for some of us. It doesn't matter that it's all an illussion. It doesn't matter that I only choose among pre-programmed responses. The point is that when I hit the button and choose a conversation line in DA I know exactly what I have said and all my focus is on the other character's response. 

When I sit and listen to my character's voiced acted repsonse and even get surprised by what he says, that is when I become a spectator to my own character and the spell that let's me believe that the my character really is me, is just lost. There is no way I can feel that the PC is me in a conversation, when I sit and observe what he says.

I can understand that this is not a concern for everyone. I can understand that many think that the trade off is worth it and they think that the gains in making it a third person RPG makes it up. Maybe I'm just a minority.

But I do feel that something important is lost to me if Bioware starts to make Dragon Age third person RPG too. Mass Effect was brilliant, but it was Shepard's story. Dragon Age felt like MY story. The more I think on it, the more I realize that it was the way I could focus only on the other characters words is what made the difference. 

I'm sure as hell not going to join some stupid boycott. I loved Mass Effect too, and I am open to the fact that I may be a minority, or that Bioware wants to explore the possibilities of a third person RPG for artistic reasons, rather than just commercial ones, as some of the more vocal protesters assume. But I reserve the right to be a little sad all the same.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 12 juillet 2010 - 08:41 .

[StingingVelvet]

The fact that combat is said to be largely unchanged pretty much makes Dragon Age still a tactical RPG with stat-based combat. That was the only thing I was worried about.



Making the story more like Mass Effect presentation wise is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. Both games offer roughly the same choice and consequence level, which is to say not as deep as many other RPG companies do it, but good enough.

[Xandurpein]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Making the story more like Mass Effect presentation wise is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. Both games offer roughly the same choice and consequence level, which is to say not as deep as many other RPG companies do it, but good enough.

Out of curiosity. What games offer deeper choices and consequences than Dragon Age? Unless I mistake myself, you and I probably disagree on that. 

[Rogue Unit]

Xandurpein wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

Making the story more like Mass Effect presentation wise is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. Both games offer roughly the same choice and consequence level, which is to say not as deep as many other RPG companies do it, but good enough.

Out of curiosity. What games offer deeper choices and consequences than Dragon Age? Unless I mistake myself, you and I probably disagree on that. 

Were ME choices not just as "deep" as DA:O?

Norveria: Kill Rachni Queen/ Let her live
Dalish evles: Kill elves/ Dont kill elves ( Either by breaking the curse or killing all the werewolves.)

Dawrves: Keep Anvil of Void/Detroy Anvil
Feros: Wipe the colony out/Save colonisy

Landsmeet: Kill Loghain/Dont kill him and lose Alistair
Virmire: Kill Ashley/ Keep Kaiden and vice versa.

There always the illusion of choice but when it come down to it - You did a mission and at the end you decide to be the "good" guy or "bad guy.

[Hulk Hsieh]

Of course DA2 won't be ME2.

It will be closer to ME1+ME2+ME3.

[Xandurpein]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

Making the story more like Mass Effect presentation wise is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. Both games offer roughly the same choice and consequence level, which is to say not as deep as many other RPG companies do it, but good enough.

Out of curiosity. What games offer deeper choices and consequences than Dragon Age? Unless I mistake myself, you and I probably disagree on that. 

Were ME choices not just as "deep" as DA:O?

Norveria: Kill Rachni Queen/ Let her live
Dalish evles: Kill elves/ Dont kill elves ( Either by breaking the curse or killing all the werewolves.)

Dawrves: Keep Anvil of Void/Detroy Anvil
Feros: Wipe the colony out/Save colonisy

Landsmeet: Kill Loghain/Dont kill him and lose Alistair
Virmire: Kill Ashley/ Keep Kaiden and vice versa.

There always the illusion of choice but when it come down to it - You did a mission and at the end you decide to be the "good" guy or "bad guy.

I agree Rogue Unit, but StingingVelvet refers to  games by other developers that supposedly offers deeper choices and  and consequences and since I haven't played one I consider doing that, I was curious what was meant.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 12 juillet 2010 - 11:09 .

[StingingVelvet]

Xandurpein wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

Making the story more like Mass Effect presentation wise is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. Both games offer roughly the same choice and consequence level, which is to say not as deep as many other RPG companies do it, but good enough.

Out of curiosity. What games offer deeper choices and consequences than Dragon Age? Unless I mistake myself, you and I probably disagree on that. 

Off the top of my head, Alpha Protocol, Morrowind and a ton of older games like Fallout, Arcanum and Planescape.  Also Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines.

The Witcher maybe... that's about on par with Dragon Age.

Bioware usually has choices matter for small snippets of dialogue or cutscenes later on, but few that effect gameplay and the overall story like those games do.

[KethWolfheart]

Xandurpein wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...

Deviija wrote...
Hopefully with DA2's intent tags (putting adjectives/descriptors in next to the paraphrases to help explain what meaning - or perhaps action - the paraphrase is trying to convey) will help with that, Sylvius. Of course, if I'm still choosing 'This interview is over! (determined)' and still punching out reporters from out of nowhere, then yes, it's a problem.

I'd be almost satisfied if I didn't end up flirting with a subordinate when I was thinking I was telling her that it would help me out if she'd go do what she was just talking about doing.  Also, not threatening law enforcement with a "paragon" choice.

But no...I hate the dialogue wheel.  The tone bit might make it tolerable, but it's still an awful mechanic for a role-playing game.

I can see why Bioware wants to go with the dialogue wheel. D Gaider explained it quite well. you can create more life like situations where people snap back and forth at each toher. Looking at Mass Effect, conversations can be to flow in a more cinematic (terrribly overused word, I know) way.

It must be very tempting from an author's perspective, to be able to write such conversations. It allows the author to pour more varied emotions into the game. I do fear however that it will give the author more tools at the expense of the player.

In the end it does break the spell for some of us. It doesn't matter that it's all an illussion. It doesn't matter that I only choose among pre-programmed responses. The point is that when I hit the button and choose a conversation line in DA I know exactly what I have said and all my focus is on the other character's response. 

When I sit and listen to my character's voiced acted repsonse and even get surprised by what he says, that is when I become a spectator to my own character and the spell that let's me believe that the my character really is me, is just lost. There is no way I can feel that the PC is me in a conversation, when I sit and observe what he says.

I can understand that this is not a concern for everyone. I can understand that many think that the trade off is worth it and they think that the gains in making it a third person RPG makes it up. Maybe I'm just a minority.

But I do feel that something important is lost to me if Bioware starts to make Dragon Age third person RPG too. Mass Effect was brilliant, but it was Shepard's story. Dragon Age felt like MY story. The more I think on it, the more I realize that it was the way I could focus only on the other characters words is what made the difference. 

I'm sure as hell not going to join some stupid boycott. I loved Mass Effect too, and I am open to the fact that I may be a minority, or that Bioware wants to explore the possibilities of a third person RPG for artistic reasons, rather than just commercial ones, as some of the more vocal protesters assume. But I reserve the right to be a little sad all the same.

This is exactly how I feel see it - especially in the VO/wheel creating a watching effect versus being effect.  I am very excited for DA2 no question.  But I also feel a little sad as it is a step away from being your character to watching your character - and either people get that or they don't.  I am still eager to play but I am feeling some nostolgia for even the illusion of being closer to being my character versus watching (and yes directing and guiding) one.  There is no getting around the fact that having one character (Hawke) is more limiting than having many - although there are certainly payoffs to having one character as well, such as a more focused story.  Hawke can still be adopted as "your" character
and even the voice over can be adopted - it just requires a different approach.  Of you can just skip that angle and just enjoy playing the game more as a movie you get to direct.  Still I prefer a bit more choice.

Regardless I am very interested to see what developments and news will come over the next year and to try out this approach. 

Thanks to all the devs and writers who have been posted - a lot of my initial worries have been removed or held at bay and I appreciate getting at least some updates of reassurance.  Certainly Bioware has a repuation for good games and have built up a lot of credibility and trust over time so I am willing to hope for the best out of them.

[Tooneyman]

and this is why it is!

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...
When I sit and listen to my character's voiced acted repsonse and even get surprised by what he says, that is when I become a spectator to my own character and the spell that let's me believe that the my character really is me, is just lost. There is no way I can feel that the PC is me in a conversation, when I sit and observe what he says.

And I don't understand why people would want to watch a slow, badly animated movie with constant interruptions.

[DPB]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Out of curiosity. What games offer deeper choices and consequences than Dragon Age? Unless I mistake myself, you and I probably disagree on that. 

Off the top of my head, Alpha Protocol, Morrowind and a ton of older games like Fallout, Arcanum and Planescape.  Also Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines.

The Witcher maybe... that's about on par with Dragon Age.

Bioware usually has choices matter for small snippets of dialogue or cutscenes later on, but few that effect gameplay and the overall story like those games do.

What choices were there to make in Morrowind? The only one I remember was choosing which Great House to join. You could join various other factions and guilds but it didn't seem to actually affect anything other the disposition of NPCs, most of which were little more than walking databases anyway. I thought that one of the biggest problems with that game was that it was so static.

[Selerz]

I would like to become one of the highest nobles, in charge of my small land making hundreds of decisions, choose a wife, choose heir and stuff that would be awesome. And of course i would be a tyrant.

[Nerevar-as]

Xandurpein wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

Making the story more like Mass Effect presentation wise is a GOOD thing, in my opinion. Both games offer roughly the same choice and consequence level, which is to say not as deep as many other RPG companies do it, but good enough.

Out of curiosity. What games offer deeper choices and consequences than Dragon Age? Unless I mistake myself, you and I probably disagree on that. 

The Witcher is the only one I can think about, besides being the only non BW game with export game to the sequel. Most decisions there were not world shaping, though. Hope to see more influence in gameplay and character interaction than in ME2.
For DA2 I just hope they don´t screw the Origins characters who may reapear. I.e. I don´t want a possible Morrigan romance if she ended in love with the Warden. Also that the 10 years thing doen´t imply an even more linear game.

[Addai]

druid126 wrote...
Even when you had a voiceless character in DA:O and you selected a block of text to regurgitate it was written a specific way and with a specific tone in mind. That's why you could say things that sounded like jokes to you that the NPC got entirely ticked off about. Your character still had tone that you couldn't control, short of not choosing that particular response. What's the difference between this new system and the old? *You* couldn't hear the tone of your character. Now you can. You can hear lines delivered the way they were intended. If you don't want to hear tone then just delete the audio files.

That's not how I saw the old system.  Sure, sometimes NPCs misunderstood, but that's how life works.  It actually adds to the experience, for me, to have NPCs reacting in unpredictable ways.

What I do not like is the idea that my PC is going to react in an unpredictable way.  Granted, I'm going to be giving the PC a general cue on how to react, but Hawke is still going to go off and do what he's going to do and say what he's going to say, whether I like it or not.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 juillet 2010 - 08:23 .

[Addai]

Morroian wrote...
You've said elsewhere that you liked DAO for its literary feel, well it sounds to me like DA2 is taking this a step further, the description of the game sounds even more literary with devices like a flashback structure and a focus on choices and consequences.

I'm contrasting literary with the much ballyhooed "cinematic" experience, where I don't really have to think about what my character is saying, I just have to point in a direction and then sit back to watch him do his thing.  Also with the idea of having a more pre-defined character rather than more of a blank slate.  My previous gaming experience is almost completely limited to text RPG.  DAO gave me a very similar experience of creating a character, building backstory, and fleshing her out, using the in-game more as cues that inspired my mental story rather than babysitting me along the way.

[Talof]

It was a great post, well thought out and orginized.  However the simple fact that origins and race choice are gone plus you don't even get to fully name your character has already ruined it for me.  Its no longer a game about your character and his place in the story, Its biowares character that you will shape a future for.  Its not an rpg when you play a character you didn't really create.  I want a hero that I chose not that was chosen for me thats why regardless of what other features have yet to be revealed this game has already been scratched from my list.

[Nighteye2]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

CLime wrote...
My guess is that BioWare isn't trying to deprive the player of information or prescience, but rather that the wheel is a necessary side effect of the conversion to a voiced PC.  It would be odd, not to mention a bit boring, for the player to
read a line once then have to listen to their character say the same line again, especially when the voice didn't match with how the player expected it would sound.  With shorter dialogue summaries in place of transcriptions, the actual voice acting will seem fresher, and the VO's reading won't clash with the player's quite as much.

This is, in fact, why we use paraphrases on our dialog wheels, yes. Well reasoned.

Yet the clash of the VO saying something you did not intend because you weren't able to read it beforehand is much, much worse - creating a lot of unwanted distance between the player and the PC. <_<

[Tsuga C]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

This is, in fact, why we use paraphrases on our dialog wheels, yes. Well reasoned.

I thought so.

Unfortunately, it breaks roleplaying.  Please stop doing it.

Do you see how it breaks roleplaying?  We're routinely surprised (and often shocked and appalled) by what our characters are saying.  It's unconscionable.

Once again, Sylvius is the steadfast voice of reason.  One has to wonder what sort of feedback EAWare received to have chosen this route and from whom it was received... 

[IronVanguard]

Now, it is true that it will be limited in how you start. One race, two genders, three classes.

Now, while we lose choice there, we can't be positive we've completely lost choice: we just lost it in one area, and currently I'm hoping we gain it in others. I don't think we've lost choice, just modified the choices available. So yes, we do have to be Hawke, but it's still your Hawke, and his Hawke, and her Hawke, and yes, Mike Hawke. All completely different Hawkes.



Changing from a list to a wheel doesn't necessarily mean all the bad things people say it does. So far, just sounds like it looks snazzier. May limit you to six choices, but it's rare to have more then that in DA:O anyways. It's a change of presentation, not substance.



The voice I can't really justify.