46 réponses à ce sujet

[TMZuk]

So, what is it about the little information released so far, that makes me annoyed and irritated with Bioware? Simple; in spite of all the technological advances, that could make CRPG's more akin to PnP RPG's, in terms of freedom and creativity, Bioware opt for going in the opposite direction.

Bioware has for the past decade been doing that, making their games ever more confined, linear, and with no real choises. DA.O was a step back towards a more oldfashioned style. Even though the story was still linear, the gameplay full of console-stuff such as "achievements", and there was far to much mindless hack'n slash, it had some moral ambigeous choices to be made and some freedom in character creation with the Origins system.

There's a rather clear definition on the term RPG. An RPG is a game
where you take on the role of another persona, created by you, and guides him or her
through a world designed by one or more GM's, in a manner that suits
you. The concept was invented by two nerds back in the sixties, David
Arneson and Gary Gygax. They published a small booklet called Chainmail,
and from that Dungeons and Dragons was created, and after that, all
other RPG's.

In the eighties the first attempts at creating CRPG's was made, all extremely limited by the lack of computing power. In the nineties machines starts to appear, which makes sizeable worlds with freedom of movment possible. Bethesda's Daggerfall was mindboggling in '95, through it's sheer size and total free gameplay. (Sandbox).

However, the weakness of a game as Daggerfall was that in order to achieve this, the gameplay became repetitive and increasingly boring. So when Bioware released Baldur's Gate something new in CRPG's was created, a more restricted world, with emphasis on a strong storyline. (Storydriven) There was, however, still freedom to explore, freedom to create your own characters, lots and lots of gameplay outside the main story, and the ability to continue the tale of your characters so long as the series was continued. It was a huge success, and bestowed eternal fame on Bioware. They'd found the delicate balance between storytelling and freedom.

But, instead of continuing along that path, exploiting the increasing power of the hardware, to create MORE freedom, combined with a powerful tale, they have instead opted to create ever more restricted games. And with ME they create their first game, where you have no real choises anymore. It is no longer an RPG, it is an adventure game, much like the old Alone in the Dark games. All emphasis is on storytelling, rather than roleplaying.

With DA.O the hope was created that we'd see a return to the freedom enjoyed in the BG series, and we created, enjoyed and worshiped our own heroic characters, whom, albeit restricted by their origin, still had enough difference that each playthrough was different. While the game certainly do not have the durability of BG and especially BG2, it was till worth seeing all the different origins. The fact that each beginning was different made each playthrough feel different.

But DA2 is clearly a step away from that. Our old characters are dropped on the floor and we have to play Hawke, and Hawke is a refugee from Lotheringen, and even if he can be female, all the franchise and media clearly indicates that she will still be a he, just like in ME2, where the developers didn't even care making a different set of animations for FemShep. We don't have the choice when we wish to talk to our companions, but have to look for a treelog in the wilderness to have a "deep" conversation with whomever.

This is not an RPG. This is an action-adventure, just like ME and especially ME2. And I don't want to play Hawke, I want to play the characters I created in DA.O, to see how and where they will eventually end. All this was what I expected from DA2. If Bioware had this in mind, they should have provided proper closure on our characters. Now, all I can do is shrug and move on to something else, because, quite frankly, I don't give a toss about Hawke. He is your character, not mine, just like Shepard. And while the ME games are fun to play through once, they have no replay-value, what so ever.

The voiceacting is another jarring thing, I find almost unbearable. I have never ben able to play through ME2 as a male, and it was a struggle in ME1, because I find the male VA so utterly flat and uninspiring. The female VA is much better, IMO, but still, ever so often I cringe my toes, because of the manner something is said. It is once more something that belongs in an adventure game, not in an RPG, because it breaks the immersion, and causes irritation, when you feel the fool just don't want to present the mood, you yourself wish for. The problem in DA:O was not that the protagonist was silent, but that his or her face was blank. If it had displayed emotions and reactions, everything would have been fine.

Perhaps things will change as more information is released - so kindly provided in a magazine you cannot buy in my country - but I'm hard pressed to see what could possible make me consider this game something to look forward too, let alone a step forward in the history of CRPG's.

[Arttis]

Can you sum it all up so I am not reading a history lecture?

[term8]

Correct me if i'm wrong but TMZuk is saying:



RPG's were originally about freedom... but got too repetitive



Baluder's Gate: reduced freedom but added story!= awesome good times



Bioware continued to effectively balance freedom and story until... dun dun dun ME

which was totally story: no freedom



DA:O brought back FREEDOM!!! as well as story and bam winning combo



but DA: 2 looks to sacrifice freedom in name of story OP is sad



also added a bit about voice acting at the end that YOU (arttis) should read...



gosh i know why they are switching the dialog system now.. for fans like you arttis ha ha... i mean no offense on a light hearted joke

[BLunted]

TMZuk wrote...

So, what is it about the little information released so far, that makes me annoyed and irritated with Bioware? Simple; in spite of all the technological advances, that could make CRPG's more akin to PnP RPG's, in terms of freedom and creativity, Bioware opt for going in the opposite direction.

Bioware has for the past decade been doing that, making their games ever more confined, linear, and with no real choises. DA.O was a step back towards a more oldfashioned style. Even though the story was still linear, the gameplay full of console-stuff such as "achievements", and there was far to much mindless hack'n slash, it had some moral ambigeous choices to be made and some freedom in character creation with the Origins system.

There's a rather clear definition on the term RPG. An RPG is a game
where you take on the role of another persona, created by you, and guides him or her
through a world designed by one or more GM's, in a manner that suits
you. The concept was invented by two nerds back in the sixties, David
Arneson and Gary Gygax. They published a small booklet called Chainmail,
and from that Dungeons and Dragons was created, and after that, all
other RPG's.

In the eighties the first attempts at creating CRPG's was made, all extremely limited by the lack of computing power. In the nineties machines starts to appear, which makes sizeable worlds with freedom of movment possible. Bethesda's Daggerfall was mindboggling in '95, through it's sheer size and total free gameplay. (Sandbox).

However, the weakness of a game as Daggerfall was that in order to achieve this, the gameplay became repetitive and increasingly boring. So when Bioware released Baldur's Gate something new in CRPG's was created, a more restricted world, with emphasis on a strong storyline. (Storydriven) There was, however, still freedom to explore, freedom to create your own characters, lots and lots of gameplay outside the main story, and the ability to continue the tale of your characters so long as the series was continued. It was a huge success, and bestowed eternal fame on Bioware. They'd found the delicate balance between storytelling and freedom.

But, instead of continuing along that path, exploiting the increasing power of the hardware, to create MORE freedom, combined with a powerful tale, they have instead opted to create ever more restricted games. And with ME they create their first game, where you have no real choises anymore. It is no longer an RPG, it is an adventure game, much like the old Alone in the Dark games. All emphasis is on storytelling, rather than roleplaying.

With DA.O the hope was created that we'd see a return to the freedom enjoyed in the BG series, and we created, enjoyed and worshiped our own heroic characters, whom, albeit restricted by their origin, still had enough difference that each playthrough was different. While the game certainly do not have the durability of BG and especially BG2, it was till worth seeing all the different origins. The fact that each beginning was different made each playthrough feel different.

But DA2 is clearly a step away from that. Our old characters are dropped on the floor and we have to play Hawke, and Hawke is a refugee from Lotheringen, and even if he can be female, all the franchise and media clearly indicates that she will still be a he, just like in ME2, where the developers didn't even care making a different set of animations for FemShep. We don't have the choice when we wish to talk to our companions, but have to look for a treelog in the wilderness to have a "deep" conversation with whomever.

This is not an RPG. This is an action-adventure, just like ME and especially ME2. And I don't want to play Hawke, I want to play the characters I created in DA.O, to see how and where they will eventually end. All this was what I expected from DA2. If Bioware had this in mind, they should have provided proper closure on our characters. Now, all I can do is shrug and move on to something else, because, quite frankly, I don't give a toss about Hawke. He is your character, not mine, just like Shepard. And while the ME games are fun to play through once, they have no replay-value, what so ever.

The voiceacting is another jarring thing, I find almost unbearable. I have never ben able to play through ME2 as a male, and it was a struggle in ME1, because I find the male VA so utterly flat and uninspiring. The female VA is much better, IMO, but still, ever so often I cringe my toes, because of the manner something is said. It is once more something that belongs in an adventure game, not in an RPG, because it breaks the immersion, and causes irritation, when you feel the fool just don't want to present the mood, you yourself wish for. The problem in DA:O was not that the protagonist was silent, but that his or her face was blank. If it had displayed emotions and reactions, everything would have been fine.

Perhaps things will change as more information is released - so kindly provided in a magazine you cannot buy in my country - but I'm hard pressed to see what could possible make me consider this game something to look forward too, let alone a step forward in the history of CRPG's.

I agree. Even though we have not heard that much so far, I just for the life of me cannot understand the logic behind some of the changes. They had the winning formula with Origins and they just had to start fooking with it(Awakenings). What they should have been doing was trying to figure out how to EXPAND on the origins experience, not water it down like a cheap drink at happy hour.

Actually, I have a good idea as to why they are watering it down...Remember, Origins was well into development before EA came along and as well as Origins sold, I would be curious to know exactly how profitable it was for the studio. Origins must have been a herculean undertaking and suspect that EA expects more bang for their buck, profit margin wise.

I suspect DA2 will be a fantastic RENTAL.

[term8]

That makes a lot of sense BLunted: your speculation as to reasons behind DA:2

[Leafs43]

If you want a return to the BG series, start making mods for BG.



Until then, you are a slave to Bioware's creative team.

[Gambient]

Ok, I am SICK of all these hate threads, especially considering how little information we have on this game.



Stop trolling.

[term8]

Gambient wrote...

Ok, I am SICK of all these hate threads, especially considering how little information we have on this game.

Stop trolling.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions no? people make uninformed decisions and assumptions all the time this is what the internet is for..... so on this thread wouldn't you be the troll... simply avoid hate threads if you do not want to hear all the negativity ha ha

[Gaddmeister]

Very good post, TMZuk (although your name reminds me of Tazok, whom I'm not too fond of)! I actually read the whole thing! 

But at least it's good to know what's to expect from the game. It's true that some freedom is needed for good replay value, so maybe DA2 isn't a worthy day 1 purchase for me. I think I'll at least have to read a couple of reviews and comments in this forum.

I have to be honest though, I love the ME franchise. I actually played through ME1 ten times and ME2 three times so far. So who knows, maybe DA2 will have an awesome story with great gameplay? If so, I won't be disappointed despite it not being an RPG by your definition.

Modifié par Gaddmeister, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:36 .

[BLunted]

Gambient wrote...

Ok, I am SICK of all these hate threads, especially considering how little information we have on this game.

Stop trolling.

Here is some more info from the upcoming GameInformer. Doesn't look promising:

Dragon Age II details

[Maniac600]

I wouldn't mind the rants if they weren't looking like something that came out of the Library of Congress....



TONE IT DOWN A TAD, EH?

[term8]

^read post number three: it's the dialog wheel version of the op

[SirOccam]

Nice post, well-written and thoughtful. But I disagree with a lot of it.

I don't think all the RPGs need to be put on the same line and "tracked" to determine the state of the RPG in the future. I don't think all these games are meant to epitomize "RPG." Different games call for different levels of freedom.

Mass Effect has way less freedom than DA:O, but it fits for that game. It's a more narrowly-focused game, and is more cinematic than DA:O or many other RPGs. DA:O was very wide open because the whole point of the game was the Origins. Without a lot of freedom, the idea of these unique origins and the different ways they affect the game would never have worked.

Well, it just so happens that DA2 is more narrowly-focused than DA:O. You might prefer the more widely-focused games, but that doesn't mean that all RPGs have to be such. From how it sounds, there'll still be plenty of choices to make and ways to distinguish your character, but choosing a race isn't one of them this time around.

Dragon Age: Origins was a great game. My favorite RPG ever, in fact. But Mass Effect 2 is also a great game. They are very different games, in scope and style and setting. But that doesn't mean that they are not both great for what they are.

[Gambient]

BLunted wrote...

Gambient wrote...

Ok, I am SICK of all these hate threads, especially considering how little information we have on this game.

Stop trolling.

Here is some more info from the upcoming GameInformer. Doesn't look promising:

Dragon Age II details

Thanks for the link, I haven't read up on that yet. While I do admit some of the changes do sound too good, I think that everyone is complaining too much. What sounds bad on paper might actually work when you play, so long as you give this game the chance. I'm not gonna be quick to judge.

Modifié par Gambient, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:51 .

[MoMan313]

"But DA2 is clearly a step away from that. Our old characters are dropped on the floor and we have to play Hawke, and Hawke is a refugee from Lotheringen, and even if he can be female, all the franchise and media clearly indicates that she will still be a he, just like in ME2, where the developers didn't even care making a different set of animations for FemShep. We don't have the choice when we wish to talk to our companions, but have to look for a treelog in the wilderness to have a "deep" conversation with whomever"



NAILED IT!!



This is not an RPG. This is an action-adventure, just like ME and especially ME2. And I don't want to play Hawke, I want to play the characters I created in DA.O, to see how and where they will eventually end. All this was what I expected from DA2. If Bioware had this in mind, they should have provided proper closure on our characters. Now, all I can do is shrug and move on to something else, because, quite frankly, I don't give a toss about Hawke. He is your character, not mine, just like Shepard. And while the ME games are fun to play through once, they have no replay-value, what so ever.



OMFG!!! no truer words were spoken!!!



I mean.. [watch out swear fest coming up] HOW THE **** DO THEY THINK THIS HAS ANYTHIG TO DO WITH DAO?!?!?



this isn't a sequel, this is crap they want us to buy and call it a sequel..



I WANT to see what happened to my companions.. AND MY WARDEN!!

And those who sacrificed themselves at the archdemon, let them create a hawke person or whatever in the new character creation, WITH other RACES.



honestly.. WHAT THE F^*& BIOWARE?!



T_T I trusted you!

[Sabariel]

Gambient wrote...

Ok, I am SICK of all these hate threads, especially considering how little information we have on this game.

Stop trolling.

Someone posting things you care not to read is not trolling

Modifié par Sabariel, 10 juillet 2010 - 09:09 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Actually, good point. If you add dialogue wheel to GoW3 it still will be an action.

[MartinJHolm]

Bah, guess I won't be bothering with DA2 then, sound absolutely like a kick in the nuts to longtime Bioware fans.

[OriginsIsBest]

MartinJHolm wrote...

Bah, guess I won't be bothering with DA2 then, sound absolutely like a kick in the nuts to longtime Bioware fans.

Yeah, I cant believe Bioware is actually going though with this. Doesnt matter anyway they have took away so much from origins now, I dont want to play Dragon age 2.

[Melra]

DA2 will be the best Dragon Age ever made. 

Modifié par Melrache, 10 juillet 2010 - 12:03 .

[thenemesis77]

Melrache wrote...

DA2 will be the best Dragon Age ever made. 

Now that is funny, I think it will be a major setback for both EA and BIOWARE. When you are doing so well with a product, don't fix whats not needed. It's odd to say but I will say it, I almost think they are out to destory this game and part 2 will help them do just that. THe reason they are out to make this game this way, is it's fast and cheap and well we all know what you get when you want fast and cheap, pure crap. I wish they would have taken the next 3 to 4 years to make a great game like DAO and in that time we could have got DLC and some Expansions, that would have be the right road to go down.

[Astatine]

SirOccam wrote...

Nice post, well-written and thoughtful. But I disagree with a lot of it.
I don't think all the RPGs need to be put on the same line and "tracked" to determine the state of the RPG in the future. I don't think all these games are meant to epitomize "RPG." Different games call for different levels of freedom.
Mass Effect has way less freedom than DA:O, but it fits for that game. It's a more narrowly-focused game, and is more cinematic than DA:O or many other RPGs. DA:O was very wide open because the whole point of the game was the Origins. Without a lot of freedom, the idea of these unique origins and the different ways they affect the game would never have worked.
Well, it just so happens that DA2 is more narrowly-focused than DA:O. You might prefer the more widely-focused games, but that doesn't mean that all RPGs have to be such. From how it sounds, there'll still be plenty of choices to make and ways to distinguish your character, but choosing a race isn't one of them this time around.
Dragon Age: Origins was a great game. My favorite RPG ever, in fact. But Mass Effect 2 is also a great game. They are very different games, in scope and style and setting. But that doesn't mean that they are not both great for what they are.

Yes, but this is a sequel to Dragon Age.  And whilst there are always new and changed things the basic premise of "sequel" is "more of the same", no?  I want DA2 to have as much freedom in character creation and roleplaying as DA:O did, and not be constrained, ME-style, down a simple choice between two opposites (Paragon/Renegade) with your character's class and background affecting the roleplaying virtually not at all (the background choices you made in ME basically triggered a couple of lines from NPCs and that was it).  However well realised that simple choice might be.

I'm with the ranters here.  Us Dragon Age fans want a sequel pitched at us, but so far it's all been MassEffectisation.  At least there's a good chance this is another misfire by the marketing department and the game itself will keep much of the spirit of the original: it's not like the DA:O marketing was terribly representative of the game, was it (Marilyn Manson trailer anyone?  Constant emphasis on Morrigan's boobs?!)

[Melra]

thenemesis77 wrote...

Melrache wrote...

DA2 will be the best Dragon Age ever made. 

Now that is funny, I think it will be a major setback for both EA and BIOWARE. When you are doing so well with a product, don't fix whats not needed. It's odd to say but I will say it, I almost think they are out to destory this game and part 2 will help them do just that. THe reason they are out to make this game this way, is it's fast and cheap and well we all know what you get when you want fast and cheap, pure crap. I wish they would have taken the next 3 to 4 years to make a great game like DAO and in that time we could have got DLC and some Expansions, that would have be the right road to go down.

I wasn't trying to be funny, that's just what I think. I find the constant whining hilarious. BioWare has done well so far, I have no reason expect any less from it in the future. 

[Layn]

there are two kinds of freedom. The freedom of maing the character truly yours and the freedom to do whatever you want. The former is DA:O the latter is ...mh bethesda games. i dont like the latter and its complete lack of focus (morrowind was sorta nice though)

[The Blue bird]

TMZuk wrote...

Epic snip-age

Okay I'm a man of little time (presumable as I post on forums) so if I'm reiteratting someone else's point I owe you my eternal soul (Mint Condition! Never been out of the package)

So your problem is that this game isn't Dragon Age: Origins II: Electric Boogaloo (Also it has two :'s). Wow, that's original (So's hypocritical humour ). The developers never claimed that it would be, nor is it (ironically) like Mass Effect. It is the stroy of the land , not of the Warden. And yes I know Mass Effect didn't start this but still...

Also the industry (which is what it is now, there's no denying that), lake all industries must move forward. Am I upset that there was no follow up to the characters in The Warriors or Platoon? (my favourite movies)
No.
Because that's were the story ended. Yes there were loose ends, that's what imaginations (and the remainder of the two years of DLC promised) are for

P.S. Damn, I use way too many brackets

Modifié par The Blue bird, 10 juillet 2010 - 01:07 .