46 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyinElk212]

Good post, OP. I agree with the majority of what you said. Bioware creating another third person narrative, when they are STILL CURRENTLY WORKING on another series that's a third person narrative, makes absolutely no sense to me, especially since their fans loved how Dragon Age Origins could truly be THEIR game! Not this "Hawke" d0uchebag's game....

While I am happy that they decided to make a sort of "direct" sequel as opposed to their previous rumor, "centuries in the future", I am infuriated with how they've handled the gameplay mechanic behind it. Possibly seeing old friends and old choices in DA2 is nice, but I really would have preferred the game to remain as "our story".

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 10 juillet 2010 - 01:14 .

[ioruweroulfdkjsf]

my problem with DA2: EVERYTHING!

just leave the game alone, it was fine the way it was. why do you have to **** with it and make it into a ME game. If i wanted to play ME, I would've bought the game. i want dragon age! and this is no sequel because it has nothing to do with the freaking prequel!!!!!!!! holy **** you people are stupid at bioware!!!!

[kansadoom]

ioruweroulfdkjsf wrote...

my problem with DA2: EVERYTHING!
just leave the game alone, it was fine the way it was. why do you have to **** with it and make it into a ME game. If i wanted to play ME, I would've bought the game. i want dragon age! and this is no sequel because it has nothing to do with the freaking prequel!!!!!!!! holy **** you people are stupid at bioware!!!!

But whats the point of the sequal if you dont have change?

[alickar]

becaus u put opinions on verry little info we have so please stop

[Faust1979]

I can't believe all the complaining in the post. Dragon Age Origins was awesome yes but why bother keeping the same play style around and just adding a new story? Why should I buy the second game? I might as well stick with the original if it doesn't try and do something different. I hope I love playing both games and I hope Dragon age 2 will be a game I love playing over and over again.

[AlanC9]

TMZuk wrote...
This is not an RPG.

Back that up with something. Anything. Predetermined protagonists go back very far in RPGs. 

[AlanC9]

TMZuk wrote...
 And while the ME games are fun to play through once, they have no replay-value, what so ever.

Utterly false, unless you meant to say they have no replay-value for TMZuk.

[MartinJHolm]

AlanC9 wrote...

TMZuk wrote...
This is not an RPG.

Back that up with something. Anything. Predetermined protagonists go back very far in RPGs. 

Can't think of any Bioware RPG's that work that way (and I mean fantasy couldn't care less about sci-fi).

---

And stop calling people whiners, the ONLY way people can show that they don't like the direction is if people tell it and I find the people complaining here do it in a constructive way so I wouldn't consider it whining.

[AlanC9]

Not all RPGs come from Bioware, silly.

And I haven't called anyone a whiner. Whining doesn't bother me. It just shows someone cares. Stupidity, on the other hand....

Edit: I guess that was addressed at someone else

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:18 .

[MartinJHolm]

Ofc they aren't but we're talking Bioware here.



And I didn't say you called anyone a whiner notice that I split it off.

[AlanC9]

Right, missed the splitter.



TMZuk said that DA2 "is not an RPG." Not "isn't the sort of RPG Bioware typically does," but "isn't an RPG," full stop. You may be talking about Bio games only, but he isn't.

[Ryzaki]

Anyone other than me finding it funny how BW slammed JRPGs for being linear and then proceed to do the same thing? Hypocrisy much?

[MartinJHolm]

AlanC9 wrote...

Right, missed the splitter.

TMZuk
said that DA2 "is not an RPG." Not "isn't the sort of RPG Bioware
typically does," but "isn't an RPG," full stop. You may be talking about
Bio games only, but he isn't.

Again I will go with the "Spiritual successor of BG" - I realize this is a "new" game but you wouldn't really expect it to be so different.
--
A lot of people liked DA because there is barely any games around like that anyone, now we are going to be stuck "playing a movie" with the next edition. I just don't like that and I want to express that and don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to - I personally also always "go after" whiners but only when there is a good reason to.

Modifié par MartinJHolm, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:33 .

[AlanC9]

Martin, you can go ahead and express that all you want. That's what the board is for. But backing TMZuk's absurd and historically incorrect definition of what RPG means simply is not the way to do it.

[NKKKK]

CrAWLIIINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG INNNNNNNNNNNNN MY SKIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNN THESE WOUNDSSSSSSSSSSSSS THEY WILLLLLLLLL NOT HEALLLLLLLLLLLLL

Modifié par NKKKK, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:44 .

[stylepoints]

I don't get why you guys think DA:O was free in any way, it wasn't. If you don't want to play the games bioware wants to make then don't. Go play ultima online. Or better yet, EVE online.

Stop thinking that bioware wants to make the exact type of game you want. Enjoy the games they make for what they are, they have never been that open ended.

Modifié par stylepoints, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:23 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

OP: Bioware already pretty much created the pinnacle of the virtual P&P experience in Neverwinter Nights which allowed you to create modules for your friends and run them like you were the DM of a table P&P group. Frankly, it works so well it doesn't need any improvement. You should look into that. Also, if you think DA:O allowed any more freedom than their past several games back to BG2, well... it frankly wasn't.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:44 .

[PendragonV]

Trollll!

[Gatt9]

AlanC9 wrote...

TMZuk wrote...
This is not an RPG.

Back that up with something. Anything. Predetermined protagonists go back very far in RPGs. 

This is correct.

Taking on the Role of a predetermined character is RPG.

I'm sure OP is aware of Dragonlance,  which historically was the first story driven series of modules that placed the players in the Roles of pre-determined protagonists,  and spawned Fantasy's most prolific and longest running series of novels.  This an easy 5 years prior to the first CRPG.

In fact,  1st edition D&D had a number of modules that placed a player in a pre-determined Role. 

The key factor is that all skill be derived from the character,  not the player,  that defines what is an RPG.  The act of taking on a Role is variable,  it can be either pre-determined or player generated as the situation and campaign warrant.

[biomag]

...I always forget the RPGs are all about tweaking and exploiting the ruleset to create an uber character... and to be a real RPG there must be hundreds of classes and races because it must be as difficult as possible, because replay value = trail & fail on the path to a perfect character... as playing the character according to his character (not skills, my dears) is also possible at ME 1 & 2, DA:O, NWN2, BG... they all have the same replay value. Maybe DAO a little more, as you can see the 1 hour origin first (not that it would make any changes to the game, except for 1 or 2 NPC that remember you).





Basically all complaints on this board about game X being not an RPG is about too little freedom to choose. At the same time bringing up BG 2 and DA:O as great examples of freedom... yeah, I all remember that time I played BG 2 and I went the same path no matter what class, except for those big choices: 1. what class playing = what house with quest you get, 2. thieves or vampires, who will help me?, 3. ship (leading to underdark) or (directly) underdark?... wow, what freedom of choice... ME really can't be compared to that... and DAO? Yeah, the already mentioned legendary 1 hour of origin gameplay with nearly no effect on the later game and the mighty decision what army you want to support you at the end...oh oh oh, I forgot, Ailastair or Logan... WOW...





I loved all those games, but people here only see what they want to see. ME may not give you the freedom to choose among 10 different lines (all with the same effect), but I never felt a bigger connection to a character than my Shepard. BG 2 was a game I played often but I hated the D&D setting. I hated those restricted classes, I hated the monsters (horrible design) and I hated their antiquated rule set. The whole replay value was based on the choice who to take with you to learn more about them. You didn't had any big difference or freedom in that game contrary to what people keep claiming here. The whole freedom was tweaking classes and that doesn't make the story or character any better. The big decisions with DA:O are just to be seen at the end, too. Maybe a little adversity within your party earlier on, but taking a closer look ME 1&2 are pretty similar to DA:O when it comes to decisions and effects.

[BallaZs]

TMZuk wrote...

So, what is it about the little information released so far, that makes me annoyed and irritated with Bioware? Simple; in spite of all the technological advances, that could make CRPG's more akin to PnP RPG's, in terms of freedom and creativity, Bioware opt for going in the opposite direction.

Bioware has for the past decade been doing that, making their games ever more confined, linear, and with no real choises. DA.O was a step back towards a more oldfashioned style. Even though the story was still linear, the gameplay full of console-stuff such as "achievements", and there was far to much mindless hack'n slash, it had some moral ambigeous choices to be made and some freedom in character creation with the Origins system.

There's a rather clear definition on the term RPG. An RPG is a game
where you take on the role of another persona, created by you, and guides him or her
through a world designed by one or more GM's, in a manner that suits
you. The concept was invented by two nerds back in the sixties, David
Arneson and Gary Gygax. They published a small booklet called Chainmail,
and from that Dungeons and Dragons was created, and after that, all
other RPG's.

In the eighties the first attempts at creating CRPG's was made, all extremely limited by the lack of computing power. In the nineties machines starts to appear, which makes sizeable worlds with freedom of movment possible. Bethesda's Daggerfall was mindboggling in '95, through it's sheer size and total free gameplay. (Sandbox).

However, the weakness of a game as Daggerfall was that in order to achieve this, the gameplay became repetitive and increasingly boring. So when Bioware released Baldur's Gate something new in CRPG's was created, a more restricted world, with emphasis on a strong storyline. (Storydriven) There was, however, still freedom to explore, freedom to create your own characters, lots and lots of gameplay outside the main story, and the ability to continue the tale of your characters so long as the series was continued. It was a huge success, and bestowed eternal fame on Bioware. They'd found the delicate balance between storytelling and freedom.

But, instead of continuing along that path, exploiting the increasing power of the hardware, to create MORE freedom, combined with a powerful tale, they have instead opted to create ever more restricted games. And with ME they create their first game, where you have no real choises anymore. It is no longer an RPG, it is an adventure game, much like the old Alone in the Dark games. All emphasis is on storytelling, rather than roleplaying.

With DA.O the hope was created that we'd see a return to the freedom enjoyed in the BG series, and we created, enjoyed and worshiped our own heroic characters, whom, albeit restricted by their origin, still had enough difference that each playthrough was different. While the game certainly do not have the durability of BG and especially BG2, it was till worth seeing all the different origins. The fact that each beginning was different made each playthrough feel different.

But DA2 is clearly a step away from that. Our old characters are dropped on the floor and we have to play Hawke, and Hawke is a refugee from Lotheringen, and even if he can be female, all the franchise and media clearly indicates that she will still be a he, just like in ME2, where the developers didn't even care making a different set of animations for FemShep. We don't have the choice when we wish to talk to our companions, but have to look for a treelog in the wilderness to have a "deep" conversation with whomever.

This is not an RPG. This is an action-adventure, just like ME and especially ME2. And I don't want to play Hawke, I want to play the characters I created in DA.O, to see how and where they will eventually end. All this was what I expected from DA2. If Bioware had this in mind, they should have provided proper closure on our characters. Now, all I can do is shrug and move on to something else, because, quite frankly, I don't give a toss about Hawke. He is your character, not mine, just like Shepard. And while the ME games are fun to play through once, they have no replay-value, what so ever.

The voiceacting is another jarring thing, I find almost unbearable. I have never ben able to play through ME2 as a male, and it was a struggle in ME1, because I find the male VA so utterly flat and uninspiring. The female VA is much better, IMO, but still, ever so often I cringe my toes, because of the manner something is said. It is once more something that belongs in an adventure game, not in an RPG, because it breaks the immersion, and causes irritation, when you feel the fool just don't want to present the mood, you yourself wish for. The problem in DA:O was not that the protagonist was silent, but that his or her face was blank. If it had displayed emotions and reactions, everything would have been fine.

Perhaps things will change as more information is released - so kindly provided in a magazine you cannot buy in my country - but I'm hard pressed to see what could possible make me consider this game something to look forward too, let alone a step forward in the history of CRPG's.

U are upset because u r stuck in the world of DAO.
Can't u imagine a brand new story with epic tale, new companions, new adventures? -> Sounds horrible, doesnt it?
It sounds like that u want DA:O back.
Be open minded and don't judge DA2 with this few info u have.
How the hell do u know that we won't have the chance to talk with our companions anytime? Whining about something which is based on a bored idiot's goosip.

[yummysoap]

Guys, I can understand a bit of the outrage, but what else was the Warden really going to do that justified an entire new game? His story was basically over, whatever he's doing now was a very vague little scribble of text, none of which provided any particular interest to warrant an entire new game based on him. The best you could hope for is something like Awakening, where he's just a Warden errand boy fixing up problems relating to darkspawn. Again.

I'm not at all surprised the Warden's been lain to rest, I'm happy for the old boy. I have my concerns about being strictly human, but I'll wait to see it for myself before jumping down Bioware's throats.

EDIT: To clarify, the Warden is one of three races and six backgrounds with a whole lot of possible things he could be doing by the end of the game, including being dead. With that, you cannot choose the route of a "personal narrative that relates to the player character", especially considering the Warden was barely ever given a chance to show any proper emotion regarding his past, his feelings, etc. He was the least characterised of the entire group faced against the Blight, and though it let the player make his own story for him in his head (which is great!), Bioware just can't follow up on that without being capable of the supernatural.

Bioware also couldn't have gone the Origins route, which had the overlaying Theme of the Blight and gathering allies against a common cause. That worked well in Origins, because it provided little need for extensive characterisation of the PC, and it gave every player a strict motivation that they can work towards. Obviously, though, the Blight has ended, and a new game based on defeating a terrifying enemy that will overrun the countryside that all must unite against the new, previously unheard of enemy is weak. WEAK, I tell you!

I'm not saying that this can do no wrong, but I think there's some very good reasons Bioware chose to go down this road. The road may well turn out to be a massive trainwreck disaster, but until I see it for myself I'm not going to start on with this ****. People seem to be desparate for the same game with a "2" stamped on the box.

Modifié par yummysoap, 11 juillet 2010 - 10:11 .