So I was playing Leliana's song and it dawned on me this is playing exactly how DA 2 is sounding like its going to be.
Leliana was a fully voiced PC, and while we couldnt edit her apperance, race or name unlike Hawke its essentially the same. The story is based around Leliana, as is Hawkes story, Bioware has said Hawke is the center and the driving force, and it seemed to work great in Leliana's song. Of course, Lelaina's song is also a personal story, and didnt focus on companions much as DA2 is going to be with hawke, albiet with DA 2 we'll probaly have more from the companions, but the idea is there.
So Im wondering if anyone of the self proclaimed DA 2 haters, also hated Leliana's Song. Because it was a pretty good DLC, and does nothing to make me think DA 2 would be bad, so Im thinking if people enjoyed this DLC, then they should stop whining because it means DA 2 is going to be good too, and with alot more customization albiet without race choice.
Leliana's Song is like DA2
Débuté par
LenaMarie
, juil. 10 2010 07:31
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 07:40
SirOccam
-
- Members
- 2 645 messages
I thought Leliana's Song was decent, and her actual spoken lines weren't as wildly divergent from the paraphrased stuff as ME was at times, but I just wish there were more options available. Lots of them were only 2 or 3, and many of the ones with more were of the basic formula of 2-3 that didn't advance the conversation, then 1 that did after you heard all you wanted.
In DAO it was less clear what was going to advance the conversation and what wasn't. Although it could be frustrating at times when a question you wanted to ask disappeared before you had a chance to ask it, I felt like it reflected an actual conversation pretty well.
In DAO it was less clear what was going to advance the conversation and what wasn't. Although it could be frustrating at times when a question you wanted to ask disappeared before you had a chance to ask it, I felt like it reflected an actual conversation pretty well.
#3
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 02:18
LenaMarie
-
- Members
- 413 messages
I think people should trust bioware, Leliana's song was good and wasnt as 'painful' as haters made that cinematic approach to be, and it was just a DLC. Apply it to a large scale thing as a full blown game and Im sure Bioware will refine the presentation in DA2 to be surpass Leliana's Song.
#4
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 02:21
Helena Tylena
-
- Members
- 1 237 messages
I'm pretty certain Leli's Song was a try-out of sorts for DA2, and they'll build on that. If they do, and do it properly, I'll enjoy Miss Hawke's adventures.
#5
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 02:22
OriginsIsBest
-
- Members
- 696 messages
No, I hate the Mass effect dialog. whats the point on your Character saying something comepletely different to what it says on screen?
Would it not just be better to actually say what it said on screen!
Would it not just be better to actually say what it said on screen!
#6
Posté 10 juillet 2010 - 02:24
Gill Kaiser
-
- Members
- 6 061 messages
It seems like DA2 will have elements of Mass Effect / Leliana's Song (speech system), and Awakenings (party conversation mechanics)
#7
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 03:05
LenaMarie
-
- Members
- 413 messages
The Speech thing in Lelianas Song wasnt bad, Leliana said pretty much what the choice I picked was, it certainly wasnt as bad as it is in Mass Effect. So far I havent heard anyone say Leli's song was bad, which means they'll probaly enjoy DA2 regardless of the changes.
#8
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 03:14
epoch_
-
- Members
- 8 916 messages
Gill Kaiser wrote...
and Awakenings (party conversation mechanics)
I've been paying pretty close attention to dev posts, and I haven't heard anything like this.
#9
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 03:45
ITSSEXYTIME
-
- Members
- 1 201 messages
I enjoyed Leliana's Song, but you're wrong in assuming that I would like to play a full game with the same system.
Leliana's Song is fine in the format it is in for two major reasons:
Firstly, Leliana is an established character I already know and care about. I don't play Leliana's Song to roleplay as her, I play it to learn more about her. I learned about her based on how she responded to the world around her. This works for DLC or even small segments of the game, but you can create an entire game around it because in order for it to be compelling it has to add on to an existing character; considering Hawke is an all new character we do not know this approach is nowhere near as interesting: you're learning about someone you have no reason to care about yet.
And secondly, Leliana's Song was a very linear format. You could choose different dialog options but ultimately your dialog choices had no effect on both the story presented by the DLC or Leliana's growth as a character. Essentially, the dialog choices existed to display different aspects of Leliana's personality. Picking a more aggressive or angry response served to illustrate what Leliana is like when she's angry to the player: while conversely in DA:O it would server to state to the game world that the player character is angry.
Leliana's Song was enjoyable, but it wasn't roleplaying. Similarly, DA2 won't have role playing in it: it will have the story of Mike Hawke, and I'm sure it will be a well-told and engaging story. However unlike DA:O, I won't be able to come back to it after completing it and playing it for hours and hours and still enjoy the game. The difference is that when I replay DA:O I'm experiencing the game world from a different character, and the choices I make in that game world allow me to define who that character is. Once I see the story of Mike Hawke, the only reason to replay the game may be to see content you missed the first time around, try seeing how the world reacts to Mike Hawke when he's more of a dick, or trying out a different class.
The disappointment for me stems from the fact that I was hoping for a new game world to create characters in. I was hoping for a new roleplaying sandbox essentially, and instead I'm getting an already finished sand castle. (but I can put some flags in it and carve out a couple of windows!)
Leliana's Song is fine in the format it is in for two major reasons:
Firstly, Leliana is an established character I already know and care about. I don't play Leliana's Song to roleplay as her, I play it to learn more about her. I learned about her based on how she responded to the world around her. This works for DLC or even small segments of the game, but you can create an entire game around it because in order for it to be compelling it has to add on to an existing character; considering Hawke is an all new character we do not know this approach is nowhere near as interesting: you're learning about someone you have no reason to care about yet.
And secondly, Leliana's Song was a very linear format. You could choose different dialog options but ultimately your dialog choices had no effect on both the story presented by the DLC or Leliana's growth as a character. Essentially, the dialog choices existed to display different aspects of Leliana's personality. Picking a more aggressive or angry response served to illustrate what Leliana is like when she's angry to the player: while conversely in DA:O it would server to state to the game world that the player character is angry.
Leliana's Song was enjoyable, but it wasn't roleplaying. Similarly, DA2 won't have role playing in it: it will have the story of Mike Hawke, and I'm sure it will be a well-told and engaging story. However unlike DA:O, I won't be able to come back to it after completing it and playing it for hours and hours and still enjoy the game. The difference is that when I replay DA:O I'm experiencing the game world from a different character, and the choices I make in that game world allow me to define who that character is. Once I see the story of Mike Hawke, the only reason to replay the game may be to see content you missed the first time around, try seeing how the world reacts to Mike Hawke when he's more of a dick, or trying out a different class.
The disappointment for me stems from the fact that I was hoping for a new game world to create characters in. I was hoping for a new roleplaying sandbox essentially, and instead I'm getting an already finished sand castle. (but I can put some flags in it and carve out a couple of windows!)
#10
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:04
Lucy Glitter
-
- Members
- 4 996 messages
I want to DL Lel's Song now. Just to get a taste of DA2.
#11
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:08
Brockololly
-
- Members
- 9 032 messages
It may be similar in the sense that Leliana's Song is a third person narrative, but from what I've gathered, DA2 uses a dialogue wheel with paraphrasing and emotion/tone indicators. The dialogue in Leliana's Song was still the tree structure, just with the paraphrasing- similar to how the dialogue worked if you take Morrigan into the Fade to rescue Connor in Origins.
#12
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:10
BlackyBlack
-
- Members
- 656 messages
The problem with the ME dialogue system is that half the time what I choose and what Shepard says is completely different. I say: AI is dangerous, he says: Destroy all AI since I hate them!
The best way to solve this problem is to make something like right click the dialogue option and box pops out that displays the full response your character is going to say
The best way to solve this problem is to make something like right click the dialogue option and box pops out that displays the full response your character is going to say
#13
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:11
Mary Kirby
-
- BioWare Employees
-
- 722 messages
Brockololly wrote...
It may be similar in the sense that Leliana's Song is a third person narrative, but from what I've gathered, DA2 uses a dialogue wheel with paraphrasing and emotion/tone indicators. The dialogue in Leliana's Song was still the tree structure, just with the paraphrasing- similar to how the dialogue worked if you take Morrigan into the Fade to rescue Connor in Origins.
I don't mean to be tearing aside the curtain and revealing the little man pulling levers or anything, but you do realize that the Mass Effect wheel is still just a dialogue list with a big 'ole circle stuck next to it, right? Arranging it vertically or curving it a little bit with sort of a graphical doodad doesn't actually change it from being a list of choices.
#14
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:15
ashez2ashes
-
- Members
- 253 messages
ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
The disappointment for me stems from the fact that I was hoping for a new game world to create characters in. I was hoping for a new roleplaying sandbox essentially, and instead I'm getting an already finished sand castle. (but I can put some flags in it and carve out a couple of windows!)
YES. THIS. You have eloquently summarized my disparate thoughts. Thank you.
#15
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:16
WingsandRings
-
- Members
- 424 messages
Mary Kirby wrote...
Brockololly wrote...
It may be similar in the sense that Leliana's Song is a third person narrative, but from what I've gathered, DA2 uses a dialogue wheel with paraphrasing and emotion/tone indicators. The dialogue in Leliana's Song was still the tree structure, just with the paraphrasing- similar to how the dialogue worked if you take Morrigan into the Fade to rescue Connor in Origins.
I don't mean to be tearing aside the curtain and revealing the little man pulling levers or anything, but you do realize that the Mass Effect wheel is still just a dialogue list with a big 'ole circle stuck next to it, right? Arranging it vertically or curving it a little bit with sort of a graphical doodad doesn't actually change it from being a list of choices.
Heh. Nice.
#16
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:17
Addai
-
- Members
- 25 850 messages
Leliana's voice and persona are like nails on a chalkboard, so I haven't bought the DLC and don't plan on doing so.LenaMarie wrote...
So I was playing Leliana's song and it dawned on me this is playing exactly how DA 2 is sounding like its going to be.
Leliana was a fully voiced PC, and while we couldnt edit her apperance, race or name unlike Hawke its essentially the same. The story is based around Leliana, as is Hawkes story, Bioware has said Hawke is the center and the driving force, and it seemed to work great in Leliana's song. Of course, Lelaina's song is also a personal story, and didnt focus on companions much as DA2 is going to be with hawke, albiet with DA 2 we'll probaly have more from the companions, but the idea is there.
So Im wondering if anyone of the self proclaimed DA 2 haters, also hated Leliana's Song. Because it was a pretty good DLC, and does nothing to make me think DA 2 would be bad, so Im thinking if people enjoyed this DLC, then they should stop whining because it means DA 2 is going to be good too, and with alot more customization albiet without race choice.
I didn't have quite as strong a reaction to the female Shepard, but still didn't like the butch persona I was forced into. I gave it a college try, a few different times, and tried a male Shepard even though I don't like playing male characters. Finally I gave up and the game collects dust. The story never grabbed me and spaceship stuff is not my favorite, but the voice thing was the real killer. We never bought ME2.
So yes, I'm very skeptical of the new system and the voiced PC was the worst news I heard coming out of the announcement. A game can be super awesome, but if you hate the voice that comes out of the speakers when you choose your responses, what are you supposed to do? Find something else to spend your money on.
#17
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:27
SmokePants
-
- Members
- 1 121 messages
No, it would be redundant. You are manipulating your character and the response is the payoff. If you knew, word for word, what the response would be, most people would save themselves 5 seconds and skipp through, making the exercise pointless.OriginsIsBest wrote...
No, I hate the Mass effect dialog. whats the point on your Character saying something comepletely different to what it says on screen?
Would it not just be better to actually say what it said on screen!
Bioware knew very early on that saying exactly what was on the screen prior to saying it, was just plain awkward.
#18
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:28
Brockololly
-
- Members
- 9 032 messages
Mary Kirby wrote...
Brockololly wrote...
It may be similar in the sense that Leliana's Song is a third person narrative, but from what I've gathered, DA2 uses a dialogue wheel with paraphrasing and emotion/tone indicators. The dialogue in Leliana's Song was still the tree structure, just with the paraphrasing- similar to how the dialogue worked if you take Morrigan into the Fade to rescue Connor in Origins.
I don't mean to be tearing aside the curtain and revealing the little man pulling levers or anything, but you do realize that the Mass Effect wheel is still just a dialogue list with a big 'ole circle stuck next to it, right? Arranging it vertically or curving it a little bit with sort of a graphical doodad doesn't actually change it from being a list of choices.
Oh, I have no problem with how the dialogue is visually structured- list, circle, throw it in a fancy rotating dodecahedron for all I care:wizard:
Correct me if I'm wrong though, but I was just thinking the layout in Leliana's Song is different than what we'll have in DA2, since DA2 also has the little tone/emotion indicator thingy in addition to the paraphrasing blurb, right? Even if behind the scenes it all boils down to one big list.
But regarding the tone/emotion thingamajig, does each dialogue blurb only have one emotion tied to it? For instance, if I want to tell Epic Hawke's sidekick to oh, "Shut up!" would there be potentially different emotions/tones tied to that one dialogue, like maybe a seriously angry "Shut up!" or a more dismissive, playful "Shut up." Did that make sense?
Modifié par Brockololly, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:33 .
#19
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:33
marquiseondore
-
- Members
- 1 293 messages
Mary Kirby wrote...
Brockololly wrote...
It may be similar in the sense that Leliana's Song is a third person narrative, but from what I've gathered, DA2 uses a dialogue wheel with paraphrasing and emotion/tone indicators. The dialogue in Leliana's Song was still the tree structure, just with the paraphrasing- similar to how the dialogue worked if you take Morrigan into the Fade to rescue Connor in Origins.
I don't mean to be tearing aside the curtain and revealing the little man pulling levers or anything, but you do realize that the Mass Effect wheel is still just a dialogue list with a big 'ole circle stuck next to it, right? Arranging it vertically or curving it a little bit with sort of a graphical doodad doesn't actually change it from being a list of choices.
True. However I preferred to read the choices and pick. You knew what you were going to say, plus had a good laugh reading the others you didn't.
DAO:
1) Straight and noble Answer
2) Answer
3) Answer
4) Smart Ass comment
5) Douchebag response
Even though it would be redunant to pick your response and hear it repeated, I still prefer this.
#20
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:34
LenaMarie
-
- Members
- 413 messages
Well I guess theres no getting around hating the VO, I mean I thought Leliana had a pretty voice so it was easy for me to listen to her and get absorbed in her Story, Same as Ms. Shepard. I found Female Shep's voice actually pretty sexy, so I enjoyed that voice speaking for my character.
However I disagree with no roleplaying, just because a character is voiced, in ME, you can play Shepard as a total ass, and the characters will react to it, hell some people can end up dead as a result, you can also play it neutral or goody goody, thats roleplaying right there.
I think however, these days most people find it inexcusible for a game not to have spoken Dialogue, while the Old School crowd might disagree, I think Bioware has to go for the crowd that'll give them the most money.
I'll admit to be very slightly skeptical, but trusting of Bioware, but after playing Leli's song, personally so long as I can get behind the Actress playing Ms. Hawke, Story and drama isnt a big deal, Bioware knows how to craft a good story, so I dont think anyone should worry about that aspect, I can really dig the style, and I played Baldur's Gate myself and enjoyed it back in the day.
Thanks to a Bio employee too for clarifying Wheels and Dialogue Trees, I thought it was probably the same thing too but I didnt know for sure.
However I disagree with no roleplaying, just because a character is voiced, in ME, you can play Shepard as a total ass, and the characters will react to it, hell some people can end up dead as a result, you can also play it neutral or goody goody, thats roleplaying right there.
I think however, these days most people find it inexcusible for a game not to have spoken Dialogue, while the Old School crowd might disagree, I think Bioware has to go for the crowd that'll give them the most money.
I'll admit to be very slightly skeptical, but trusting of Bioware, but after playing Leli's song, personally so long as I can get behind the Actress playing Ms. Hawke, Story and drama isnt a big deal, Bioware knows how to craft a good story, so I dont think anyone should worry about that aspect, I can really dig the style, and I played Baldur's Gate myself and enjoyed it back in the day.
Thanks to a Bio employee too for clarifying Wheels and Dialogue Trees, I thought it was probably the same thing too but I didnt know for sure.
#21
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:35
David Gaider
-
- BioWare Employees
-
- 4 514 messages
Yes, DA2's interface is different from Leliana's Song-- we have the indicator thingy, as well as access to sub-menus (a la ME's investigation hubs).Brockololly wrote...
Correct me if I'm wrong though, but I was just thinking the layout in Leliana's Song is different than what we'll have in DA2, since DA2 also has the little tone/emotion indicator thingy in addition to the paraphrasing blurb, right? Even if behind the scenes it all boils down to one big list.
But regarding the tone/emotion thingamajig, does each dialogue blurb only have one emotion tied to it? For instance, if I want to tell Epic Hawke's sidekick to oh, "Shut up!" would there be potentially different emotions/tones tied to that one dialogue, like maybe a seriously angry "Shut up!" or a more dismissive, light hearted "Shut up." Did that make sense?
We would put a different indicator thingy on each option, if we thought it different enough to warrant it. If I were to wrote those examples you name as two different options, I'd make sure to differentiate them a little more and make sure they not only had the proper indicator thingy but also a non-confusing paraphrase. In essence, however, it's less different than working with a regular PC choice list than I thought it would be... and we've also no paragon/renegade axis to tie ourselves to. Choices are just choices.
Which is to say that it's easier to show than explain. You'll see what we mean eventually.
#22
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:39
Mary Kirby
-
- BioWare Employees
-
- 722 messages
Brockololly wrote...
Oh, I have no problem with how the dialogue is visually structured- list, circle, throw it in a fancy rotating dodecahedron for all I care:wizard:
Correct me if I'm wrong though, but I was just thinking the layout in Leliana's Song is different than what we'll have in DA2, since DA2 also has the little tone/emotion indicator thingy in addition to the paraphrasing blurb, right? Even if behind the scenes it all boils down to one big list.
But regarding the tone/emotion thingamajig, does each dialogue blurb only have one emotion tied to it? For instance, if I want to tell Epic Hawke's sidekick to oh, "Shut up!" would there be potentially different emotions/tones tied to that one dialogue, like maybe a seriously angry "Shut up!" or a more dismissive, light hearted "Shut up." Did that make sense?
Yeah, Leliana's Song didn't get the graphical doodad. And there are some other differences. Leliana is a much more defined character than Hawke is, for starters.
Edit: Ninjaed by Gaider. Drat!
Modifié par Mary Kirby, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:40 .
#23
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:40
marquiseondore
-
- Members
- 1 293 messages
LenaMarie wrote...
Well I guess theres no getting around hating the VO, I mean I thought Leliana had a pretty voice so it was easy for me to listen to her and get absorbed in her Story, Same as Ms. Shepard. I found Female Shep's voice actually pretty sexy, so I enjoyed that voice speaking for my character.
However I disagree with no roleplaying, just because a character is voiced, in ME, you can play Shepard as a total ass, and the characters will react to it, hell some people can end up dead as a result, you can also play it neutral or goody goody, thats roleplaying right there.
I think however, these days most people find it inexcusible for a game not to have spoken Dialogue, while the Old School crowd might disagree, I think Bioware has to go for the crowd that'll give them the most money.
I'll admit to be very slightly skeptical, but trusting of Bioware, but after playing Leli's song, personally so long as I can get behind the Actress playing Ms. Hawke, Story and drama isnt a big deal, Bioware knows how to craft a good story, so I dont think anyone should worry about that aspect, I can really dig the style, and I played Baldur's Gate myself and enjoyed it back in the day.
Thanks to a Bio employee too for clarifying Wheels and Dialogue Trees, I thought it was probably the same thing too but I didnt know for sure.
Same I don't mind the VO. As long as Lady Hawke isn't voiced by the same actress who did the voice of Isolde. I don't want my ears to bleed.
#24
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:41
Brockololly
-
- Members
- 9 032 messages
David Gaider wrote...
We would put a different indicator thingy on each option, if we thought it different enough to warrant it. If I were to wrote those examples you name as two different options, I'd make sure to differentiate them a little more and make sure they not only had the proper indicator thingy but also a non-confusing paraphrase. In essence, however, it's less different than working with a regular PC choice list than I thought it would be... and we've also no paragon/renegade axis to tie ourselves to. Choices are just choices.
Which is to say that it's easier to show than explain. You'll see what we mean eventually.
I 'm looking forward to the emotion/tone indictaor as there were times in Origins when I thought I was picking a sort of good natured ribbing response making fun of Alistair, when in reality the dialogue may have been said as if the PC was a genuine jerk, making Alistair all moody.
But one other thing, obviously there won't be paragon/renegade choices, but what about dialogue that only opens up based on cunning or persuade or intimidation? Are those aspects still around?
Modifié par Brockololly, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:42 .
#25
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:44
adneate
-
- Members
- 2 970 messages
Brockololly wrote...
But one other thing, obviously there won't be a paragon/renegade choices, but what about dialogue that only opens up based on cunning or persuade or intimidation? Are those aspects still around?
I'd add to this specialization and class based options if I'm a Spirit Healer and I'm talking to someone who is injured shouldn't I have the option to you know heal them? I bugged me to no end that when talking to Brother Genitivi my Healer had to bandage him up and not heal him with my magic.
