102 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gill Kaiser wrote...
By this same logic, DA:O was the Warden's story, "not ours". The only difference (besides the lack of race options, as I said) is that we now have a set surname rather than a title.

But you had a lot more control over who and what that Warden is. You chose his / her race, background and with no VA, also what kind of personality / mannerisms he / she had (unless you susbcribe to the literalist school of thought that takes dialogue options literally and refuses to imagine the Warden saying it any differently, which I do not subscribe to).
 
No one is saying that DA:O gave us complete freedom, it's just not possible. But it sure as hell gave us a lot more control over our characters and their personalities. I have 5 Origins characters, each are extremily different in terms of personality in my mind (and with no VA, it helps me imagine it better). And I just can't do the same for ME. In ME, I play either angry Shepard or nice and boring Shepard. That's it. The RP valus is thus not the same.

Not saying ME is a bad game, but I would have expected DA2 to follow its origins more, instead of going to the ME route.

[Gegenlicht]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Perhaps I misspoke then. What I meant to say was that, with Dragon Age Origins, there was no "canon Warden". You could essentially create "yourself" to place in the story. Every decision presented gave off the impression that YOU were making the decision, YOU were influencing the story, simply because there was no set main character to play as: in essence, YOU were the main character.

Making Hawke the main character destroys this feeling. In essence, Bioware is saying, "Hey, here's OUR character. Now you have to play as him/her." They've even voiced the character, and stated that its HAWKE'S story.

Not seeing it. The DA:O character is picked from a number of multiple choice options. Two for Dwarves, three for Elves and two for Humans, times two for gender nets you 14 different basic characters with which to play the game, which each only affected the game in half a dozen instances beyond the prologue at best. You don't have the full set of choices you'd get in a tabletop game. You can't decide to play a character that was raised to become a Templar like Alistair, or who joined the Chantry like Leiliana, or a peasant who found a magical sword while plowing and decided that was fate's way of telling him he should become a warrior.

You can make that claim after the fact, but the game doesn't support it at any instance. The only choices you ever had were those programmed into the game. There were a lot of them, certainly, and there's no reason that level of choice can't be in 'DA2' as well, but you never really had the freedom to do everything you wanted. Like kill all Templars and burn all Chantries in the game to the ground because you decide your Mage justly hates the blighters.

If 'DA2' is a game in the ME mold, you'll be locked into the last name, but you'll still be able to customize your visuals and make your own choices along the way. People have mentioned Planescape: Torment. I'll add KOTOR. You could decide on your visuals and class in that game, everything else was locked in. But the choices you made in that game had major implications for how the story panned out.

[Hulk Hsieh]

Traditional RPGs doesn't usually have multiple origins to select from.

It is creatred in TOEE and borrowed in DA:O and made better.

It is a very new feature that Bioware experimented once.

[FlyinElk212]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...
By this same logic, DA:O was the Warden's story, "not ours". The only difference (besides the lack of race options, as I said) is that we now have a set surname rather than a title.

But you had a lot more control over who and what that Warden is. You chose his / her race, background and with no VA, also what kind of personality / mannerisms he / she had (unless you susbcribe to the literalist school of thought that takes dialogue options literally and refuses to imagine the Warden saying it any differently, which I do not subscribe to).
 
No one is saying that DA:O gave us complete freedom, it's just not possible. But it sure as hell gave us a lot more control over our characters and their personalities. I have 5 Origins characters, each are extremily different in terms of personality in my mind (and with no VA, it helps me imagine it better). And I just can't do the same for ME. In ME, I play either angry Shepard or nice and boring Shepard. That's it. The RP valus is thus not the same.

Not saying ME is a bad game, but I would have expected DA2 to follow its origins more, instead of going to the ME route.

I couldn't have stated this better myself.

I'd just like to add that, from a psychological standpoint, it's not so much that it was "my story", I suppose. We were forced into the Warden pathline. However, since I wasn't given a "Hawke" to play as, it was still me. I was the main character that made those decisions that ultimately defeated the Blight. That feeling of individuality, of "my choices", and not "me choosing what Hawke decides", will be missed.

[Jonp382]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Traditional RPGs doesn't usually have multiple origins to select from.
It is creatred in TOEE and borrowed in DA:O and made better.
It is a very new feature that Bioware experimented once.

KotOR and Mass Effect also have origins. Dragon Age is just the only one that has you play part of it out.

[FlyinElk212]

Gegenlicht wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Perhaps I misspoke then. What I meant to say was that, with Dragon Age Origins, there was no "canon Warden". You could essentially create "yourself" to place in the story. Every decision presented gave off the impression that YOU were making the decision, YOU were influencing the story, simply because there was no set main character to play as: in essence, YOU were the main character.

Making Hawke the main character destroys this feeling. In essence, Bioware is saying, "Hey, here's OUR character. Now you have to play as him/her." They've even voiced the character, and stated that its HAWKE'S story.

Not seeing it. The DA:O character is picked from a number of multiple choice options. Two for Dwarves, three for Elves and two for Humans, times two for gender nets you 14 different basic characters with which to play the game, which each only affected the game in half a dozen instances beyond the prologue at best. You don't have the full set of choices you'd get in a tabletop game. You can't decide to play a character that was raised to become a Templar like Alistair, or who joined the Chantry like Leiliana, or a peasant who found a magical sword while plowing and decided that was fate's way of telling him he should become a warrior.

You can make that claim after the fact, but the game doesn't support it at any instance. The only choices you ever had were those programmed into the game. There were a lot of them, certainly, and there's no reason that level of choice can't be in 'DA2' as well, but you never really had the freedom to do everything you wanted. Like kill all Templars and burn all Chantries in the game to the ground because you decide your Mage justly hates the blighters.

If 'DA2' is a game in the ME mold, you'll be locked into the last name, but you'll still be able to customize your visuals and make your own choices along the way. People have mentioned Planescape: Torment. I'll add KOTOR. You could decide on your visuals and class in that game, everything else was locked in. But the choices you made in that game had major implications for how the story panned out.

While you're absolutely right, I think it's a little unrealistic to believe that Bioware can have that many choices in a videogame. There's a limit to everything, and Bioware could only work with so much. Even though we were pushed towards an overall Warden story, Bioware did an excellent job in giving us a variety of options, options that supported the feeling that WE were making the decisions to help end the Blight. I guess I'm simply upset that now, it's no longer OUR decisions. It's our choice for what Hawke decides.

I know I'm sort of repeating myself, but I just wanted to clarify. Yes, I have no doubt that Bioware can still give us a variety of options, and make it so we can have our own, unique version of Hawke's story, but that's just my point. It's still "Hawke's story, Hawke's decisions". No longer "our Warden's".

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 10 juillet 2010 - 01:51 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

Jonp382 wrote...

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Traditional RPGs doesn't usually have multiple origins to select from.
It is creatred in TOEE and borrowed in DA:O and made better.
It is a very new feature that Bioware experimented once.

KotOR and Mass Effect also have origins. Dragon Age is just the only one that has you play part of it out.

In KotoR the origins is a big lie and doesn't have gameplay impacts.
In ME it affects one mission and nothing else.
In BG.... well, you are raised by Gorion and grows up with Imoen.
In JE....you are the disciple of Master Li.

If you mean the super shallow origins like Kotor and ME, maybe DA2 will have something like it.

[Jonp382]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Traditional RPGs doesn't usually have multiple origins to select from.
It is creatred in TOEE and borrowed in DA:O and made better.
It is a very new feature that Bioware experimented once.

KotOR and Mass Effect also have origins. Dragon Age is just the only one that has you play part of it out.

In KotoR the origins is a big lie and doesn't have gameplay impacts.

True that is it a lie, but to say it has no effect on the gameplay isn't entirely true. What your origin is determines your class and it also has potential for role-playing. Would you expect a soldier to think the same as a scoundrel?

In ME it affects one mission and nothing else.

Actually, it has an effect on paragon and renegade. If Mass Effect were a fully fledged role-playing game, it too would make a good excuse for certain ways of thinking on Shepard's part. It's admittedly not that big of a deal for this type of game but BioWare did play around with it.

[Bitterfoam]

I've a similar question to the TC's:



Why is it people feel the need to cry about how the sky is falling when they see one change they apparently do not like?

[Hulk Hsieh]

Jonp382 wrote...
True that is it a lie, but to say it has no effect on the gameplay isn't entirely true. What your origin is determines your class and it also has potential for role-playing. Would you expect a soldier to think the same as a scoundrel?

Actually, it has an effect on paragon and renegade. If Mass Effect were a fully fledged role-playing game, it too would make a good excuse for certain ways of thinking on Shepard's part. It's admittedly not that big of a deal for this type of game but BioWare did play around with it.

If the origins would affect the thinking and paragon/renegade, it should be shown in game.
The dialog tone doesn't change between soldier and scoundrel.
The ruthless origin of ME doesn't give you high starting renegade value.

[Gegenlicht]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

I know I'm sort of repeating myself, but I just wanted to clarify. Yes, I have no doubt that Bioware can still give us a variety of options, and make it so we can have our own, unique version of Hawke's story, but that's just my point. It's still "Hawke's story, Hawke's decisions". No longer "our Warden's".

...I think this would all be a lot easier if they hadn't decided to name the character 'Hawke'. If his last name was more neutral or even generic, or if the character went by a nickname that gave no indication as to his identity, it wouldn't be such a sore thumb.

Mind you, you're well within your rights to be unhappy. I come from tabletop gaming, and I miss being able to have ideas of my own rather than go with what the game designers offer me. I'm sure we've all been there. There's a problem, you're given three solutions, and immediately you come up with an even better solution that you can't pick because it's not in the game. Since that's not possible, I've resigned myself to accept the lack of choice in computer games, and try to see it more as an interactive novel or movie. I can still get immersed if it's well done. Mass Effect was a game I had no troubles immersing myself in, for example, and I felt that to some extent, I could make the character mine.

And something else I wanted to talk about earlier but forgot about. Dragon Age is a franchise. The designers aren't necessarily being stupid in trying out different formats. DA:O was the classic party format in the vein of the SSI games, BG, IDW etc. It was miles more advanced than those games, hybridizing into the KOTOR setup. 'DA2' seems to owe more to non-party based designs like the Elder Scrolls games, though DA:O already took all the necessary hints from that one.

On the storytelling level, 'DA2' also doesn't seem to be as grand as DA:O. Again, I think it's fair they're looking at different options. But the '2' hurts them in this case. This isn't so much a continuation as it is a spinoff. If the game was called DA: Hawke's Story or whatever, there'd be less expectations to see a game in the DA:O mold and less initial disappointment.


In other words, their marketing department dropped the ball. Insert claim on how I think they should hire me and at any rate, all marketing department and companies should hire linguists and the like who are aware of the implications of the stuff they're actually saying and not just throwing around fuzzy polls and flowcharts without context.


On the upside, Bioware seem intent on putting out Dragon Age games for a long time to come. I'm sure there will be games in the future that are closer to DA:O and the things you want out of a game. I'm pretty certain that depending on the story to be told, the exact representation of the next games will change accordingly. Hell, maybe we'll get a strategy game out of them one day. Imagine the backlash. 

[Jonp382]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

The dialog tone doesn't change between soldier and scoundrel.

The character is not limited to one dialog choice the vast majority of the time.

The ruthless origin of ME doesn't give you high starting renegade value.

No. IIRC it affords you additional gained points when using renegade.

[FlyinElk212]

Gegenlicht wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

I know I'm sort of repeating myself, but I just wanted to clarify. Yes, I have no doubt that Bioware can still give us a variety of options, and make it so we can have our own, unique version of Hawke's story, but that's just my point. It's still "Hawke's story, Hawke's decisions". No longer "our Warden's".

...I think this would all be a lot easier if they hadn't decided to name the character 'Hawke'. If his last name was more neutral or even generic, or if the character went by a nickname that gave no indication as to his identity, it wouldn't be such a sore thumb.

Mind you, you're well within your rights to be unhappy. I come from tabletop gaming, and I miss being able to have ideas of my own rather than go with what the game designers offer me. I'm sure we've all been there. There's a problem, you're given three solutions, and immediately you come up with an even better solution that you can't pick because it's not in the game. Since that's not possible, I've resigned myself to accept the lack of choice in computer games, and try to see it more as an interactive novel or movie. I can still get immersed if it's well done. Mass Effect was a game I had no troubles immersing myself in, for example, and I felt that to some extent, I could make the character mine.

And something else I wanted to talk about earlier but forgot about. Dragon Age is a franchise. The designers aren't necessarily being stupid in trying out different formats. DA:O was the classic party format in the vein of the SSI games, BG, IDW etc. It was miles more advanced than those games, hybridizing into the KOTOR setup. 'DA2' seems to owe more to non-party based designs like the Elder Scrolls games, though DA:O already took all the necessary hints from that one.

On the storytelling level, 'DA2' also doesn't seem to be as grand as DA:O. Again, I think it's fair they're looking at different options. But the '2' hurts them in this case. This isn't so much a continuation as it is a spinoff. If the game was called DA: Hawke's Story or whatever, there'd be less expectations to see a game in the DA:O mold and less initial disappointment.


In other words, their marketing department dropped the ball. Insert claim on how I think they should hire me and at any rate, all marketing department and companies should hire linguists and the like who are aware of the implications of the stuff they're actually saying and not just throwing around fuzzy polls and flowcharts without context.


On the upside, Bioware seem intent on putting out Dragon Age games for a long time to come. I'm sure there will be games in the future that are closer to DA:O and the things you want out of a game. I'm pretty certain that depending on the story to be told, the exact representation of the next games will change accordingly. Hell, maybe we'll get a strategy game out of them one day. Imagine the backlash. 

Hahaha--excellent read, my friend. Pretty sure that Bioware's marketing department should hire you as a consultant. And you bring up a fair point-- Dragon Age is a franchise as well, and needs to consider its options in differentiating games.

I just hope Bioware knows what it's doing...

[Wizbane]

What if.



Dragon Age 2 now calls for the "what if".



Here it is: what if Bioware wasn't launching the SW license with a MMORPG? Would the Dragon Age product identity have been developed in a totally different way (other than the already planned for another game, Mass Effect *cough*, way)?



So far I get a too strong "loose ends" effect from the various products: DA:O, DA:O AW ("expansion"? not by a mile), stand-alone DLCs, DA:O toolset, 2 books (want more, they were the good start...), patching progress (what is this?), shirts and papercutters (wtf'?), official wiki and social site (where's my vault?)..... a big mess. DA:2 just adds to it.



Spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate with a toolset without the limits of a licensed ruleset... where are thou?



SW has killed the budget, marketing guys are making the rest.



Oh, but the money will come. I, for one, will gladly buy DA:2. Too bad Origins wasn't a start, just an episode. Hawke... I'm reminiscent of spin-offs of popular tv series... the feeling is never the same.

[AlanC9]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...
The ruthless origin of ME doesn't give you high starting renegade value.

It does give you a small bonus, though, and War Hero gives some Paragon points.

[Gegenlicht]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Hahaha--excellent read, my friend. Pretty sure that Bioware's marketing department should hire you as a consultant. And you bring up a fair point-- Dragon Age is a franchise as well, and needs to consider its options in differentiating games.

I just hope Bioware knows what it's doing...

Why, thank you, I aim to please, though my thoughts aren't even one hundred percent settled on the matter. I am unhappy with some decisions, but I also know that I had a lot of fun with a couple of games that offered even less choice than ME levels. The Witcher comes to mind outside of Bioware's games, though the combat mechanic was a bit silly.

On another thought that just came to mind, I also guess it's a lot easier to make a 'tighter' game than allow for the amount of moddability that DA:O allowed for. Or at least you can put your resources elsewhere. When DA:O was first released, I remember being rather unhappy with the look of it. Mostly because I expected people to look on par with Mass Effect, but, stylistical differences aside, they ended up seeming much cruder.

I'd still like to see the story and our character from Origins to be followed up on, and not in the half-assed vein of Awakening which reduced your companions to one-liners. I'd rather give up voices than full-fledged interactions. Chatting with Morrigan, Sten, Leiliana, Oghren, Shale and of course Morrigan (yeah I know, but I do adore her so) was at times more fun than bothering with chasing after quests for me.

At any rate, it's Bioware. I've never felt I wasn't getting my money's worth from their games, unlike some of the competition.

[AlanC9]

Wizbane wrote...
So far I get a too strong "loose ends" effect from the various products: DA:O, DA:O AW ("expansion"? not by a mile), stand-alone DLCs, DA:O toolset, 2 books (want more, they were the good start...), patching progress (what is this?), shirts and papercutters (wtf'?), official wiki and social site (where's my vault?)..... a big mess. DA:2 just adds to it.

Spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate with a toolset without the limits of a licensed ruleset... where are thou?

SW has killed the budget, marketing guys are making the rest.

So much idiocy here I can't take it all on. For starters, Bioware never had anything to do with the Vault, patching is proceeding at a completely normal pace for Bioware, and different projects have, you know, different budgets. Unless Bio just isn't big enough to handle ME, DA, and TOR at the same time, which is unlikely with EA behind them.

[sydranark]

forget the end of bioware as a traditional rpg creator.... dragon age 2 is the end of the world and existence as we know it.

[sydranark]

LOLjk ppl r overreacting

[Wizbane]

AlanC9 wrote...

Wizbane wrote...
So far I get a too strong "loose ends" effect from the various products: DA:O, DA:O AW ("expansion"? not by a mile), stand-alone DLCs, DA:O toolset, 2 books (want more, they were the good start...), patching progress (what is this?), shirts and papercutters (wtf'?), official wiki and social site (where's my vault?)..... a big mess. DA:2 just adds to it.

Spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate with a toolset without the limits of a licensed ruleset... where are thou?

SW has killed the budget, marketing guys are making the rest.

So much idiocy here I can't take it all on. For starters, Bioware never had anything to do with the Vault, patching is proceeding at a completely normal pace for Bioware, and different projects have, you know, different budgets. Unless Bio just isn't big enough to handle ME, DA, and TOR at the same time, which is unlikely with EA behind them.

I posted my feelings about how DA PI is being handled. You posted... "idiocy"?

Well thanks, and goodbye AlanC9.

[Wizbane]

AlanC9 wrote...

Hulk Hsieh wrote...
The ruthless origin of ME doesn't give you high starting renegade value.

It does give you a small bonus, though, and War Hero gives some Paragon points.

And let's not forget your contribution to the original topic.

[Merci357]

Gegenlicht wrote...
Why, thank you, I aim to please, though my thoughts aren't even one hundred percent settled on the matter. I am unhappy with some decisions, but I also know that I had a lot of fun with a couple of games that offered even less choice than ME levels. The Witcher comes to mind outside of Bioware's games, though the combat mechanic was a bit silly.

Well, there is no game (no book, no movie, for that matter) where I'm 100% happy with everything. If I had the last say, some things were definitely different, everywhere. Sadly no one asked me...  - Of course I'm unhappy with some decisions, no game is tailored just for me. And, honestly, if I had to design my own game, I'd likely realise I had to compromise somewhere, for whatever reason. So, I try to take games for what they are, and don't go overly religious about them. If they don't appeal me at all, I don't get them - otherwise I'm quite sure DA2 will likely be an enjoyable game. Would I have done things differently? Again, sure. But I don't let that get into my way.

On another thought that just came to mind, I also guess it's a lot easier to make a 'tighter' game than allow for the amount of moddability that DA:O allowed for. Or at least you can put your resources elsewhere. When DA:O was first released, I remember being rather unhappy with the look of it. Mostly because I expected people to look on par with Mass Effect, but, stylistical differences aside, they ended up seeming much cruder.

Yup, crude is a good description. Then again, I just close my Eyes and remember me playing SSI gold box games two decades ago, we certainly have gone quite far from there. The graphics where good enough, they didn't break the game.

I'd still like to see the story and our character from Origins to be followed up on, and not in the half-assed vein of Awakening which reduced your companions to one-liners. I'd rather give up voices than full-fledged interactions. Chatting with Morrigan, Sten, Leiliana, Oghren, Shale and of course Morrigan (yeah I know, but I do adore her so) was at times more fun than bothering with chasing after quests for me.

Well, I'd rather reduce the number of companions, and have meaningful dialogue (and dialogue progression) with them, then the situation in ME2 (can it wait? I'm in the middle of some calibrations...).

At any rate, it's Bioware. I've never felt I wasn't getting my money's worth from their games, unlike some of the competition.

That's why I'm confident I'll at least enjoy DA2. Past games, like for me Jade Empire, weren't always huge hits I still hold in high regards. However, even with JE I had two nice playthroughs. I don't expect any less now - and that's still good value for my money.

[Ninjatroll]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ninjatroll wrote...
This is not a story about how you save the world. This is a story about YOU. How is that not a RPG.

No, this is a story about Hawke, whom we direct.

And it is an RPG in the sense we assume Hawke's role. But compared to Origins where we have much more say in our characters origins / backgrounds and personality, that's a downgrade.

Have you played Planescape: Torment? A game that is superior to DA:O in roleplaying possibilities and force you to play "The nameless one". The origins storys didn't change that much anyway. A few dialogues here and there. They all basicly ended in "You are forced into becoming a Grey Warden, and pulled away from your home and life as you know it, unable to return".

Sure it would be nice to have them, but before we know the reasoning behind forcing the players to be human it's hard to argue about it. The fact that the game is about who hawke is rather than saving the world yet again is enough for me to have faith that bioware made the correct choise. Less choise in who you begin the game as, give the deveolopers more resources to give choises about who you'll become during the game, something that (too me atleast) makes roleplaying and replayability a lot more rewarding.

Modifié par Ninjatroll, 10 juillet 2010 - 03:16 .

[TheMadCat]

I'm not going to write anything off yet, but it's been evident for a while now that they've slowly been pulling away from what can be considered the traditional RPG genre. For monetary reasons it's the best move they could make, though they dug themselves in such a hole by using these incredibly bloated budgets along side poor allocation. Still, it's just a fact of reality and we in the old guard need to accept that has a fact of reality. Either we adapt or we simply move on to other companies still thriving in the niche, a small insignificant and unimportant fraction of their sales.

[Gegenlicht]

Merci357 wrote...

Yup, crude is a good description. Then again, I just close my Eyes and remember me playing SSI gold box games two decades ago, we certainly have gone quite far from there. The graphics where good enough, they didn't break the game.

Oh yes, they were good enough, and once you get a hold of the Editor, you can actually do some pretty cool-looking characters, even without extra textures and stuff. 90% of hair released by Modders, while I appreciate their efforts, looks like stupid anime hair, alas.

And I remember the SSI games. I did like the little journals that came with those games. Best form of copy protection, moreso than the code wheel, I thought at the time. Of course, DA:O did exactly that with its Codex entries, just in an in-game form. In fact I always felt like BG took a lot of its inspiration from those games. While they were far more loose on the story end, the basic formula of, say, Curse of the Azure Bonds, is exactly the same as the one for DA:O, right down to the map you use to travel from main plot chapter area to main plot chapter area, with some extra areas and sidequests strewn along the path. Goes to show how good those games were in basic design, I guess.

Well, I'd rather reduce the number of companions, and have meaningful dialogue (and dialogue progression) with them, then the situation in ME2 (can it wait? I'm in the middle of some calibrations...).

No argument there. But the progression in that regard as I see it is DA:O > ME > ME2 -> DA:O-AW. The only thing I found redeeming about the 'conversations' in that game was clicking on the kitten. Again and again and again.