102 réponses à ce sujet

[Luke Bioware]

Really D:? That surprises me, but luckily I said 'think'.

E: Noviere speaks the truth!

Modifié par Luke Bioware, 10 juillet 2010 - 12:13 .

[Merci357]

Just because it's also released on PS3, maybe?

[CaseyPreston]

Mass Effect is a lot better story wise

[SithLordExarKun]

Rogue Unit wrote...

I thought it was bad when Bioware announced your LI from ME1 would be cameos. They've said little to nothing but that there will be a dialogue wheel and are getting death threats, claims that they dont care about fans, and threats of not buying the game (We all know how true the last one is)

I hope Bioware studios are bomb-safe.

Some of these fans are seriously pathetic. I swear its even worse than the PC fanboy outrage on the MW2 forums last november.

[Luke Bioware]

Yeah. I'm almost ashamed to be a true blooded BioWare fanboy. I just let 'em do their thing and perhaps whine after I played something.

[-Semper-]

Luke Bioware wrote...

What was sucky about it? Would it make you feel better if you could read line for line what She- Hawke is going to say?

seems like you are no oldschool crpg player. if you would be then you should have recognized how voiced player characters are limiting the dialogues. you will get less options to choose from and the dialogues will be shorter. now this works with a action rpg like diablo or mass effect but never with such a massive beast like baldurs gate, planescape and so on - to voice all the lines will definitely bust your budget.

it's not so much about hearing a voice or that the voice will not fit to your character at all but the limitations. take a look at leliana's song. there you can feel bad dialogues and almost no options. now if they could not get a 2h dlc right then most fans are feared to death what will happen to a whole 60h game.

Modifié par -Semper-, 10 juillet 2010 - 12:31 .

[Luke Bioware]

-Semper- wrote...

Luke Bioware wrote...

What was sucky about it? Would it make you feel better if you could read line for line what She- Hawke is going to say?

seems like you are no oldschool crpg player. if you would be then you should have recognized how voiced player characters are limiting the dialogues. you will get less options to choose from and the dialogues will be shorter. now this works with a action rpg like diablo or mass effect but never with such a massive beast like baldurs gate, planescape and so on - to voice all the lines will definitely bust your budget.

it's not so much about hearing a voice or that the voice will not fit to your character at all but the limitations. take a look at leliana's song. there you can feel bad dialogues and almost no options. now if they could not get a 2h dlc right then most fans are feared to death what will happen to a whole 60h game.

Seems like you didn't read all my posts here . I am a massive Baldur's Gate, Planescape and Knights fan for instance. I love those games, but do not agree with your point. Since Knights all different choices result in the same limited pool of answers you mostly hear. If you say something mean, it usually adds a disgruntled line and after that it reverts back to the original path. Wow... How immersive .

Modifié par Luke Bioware, 10 juillet 2010 - 12:53 .

[Sirsmirkalot]

I think full text will be a thing of the past before long. All games
will be voiced and the conversation system designed around that. Using a
dialog wheel greatly speeds up interactions, especially in scenes that
go on for a while. The ME wheel may need some modification for DA2 but
in principle it should work. Just make the options clearer.

Making full scentences clearer when you're limited to one or two words seems highly improbable to me. And it speeding up interactions is nonsense.

Full text isn't outdated. It's simply differant by that it provides more information.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 10 juillet 2010 - 12:56 .

[Layn]

when i refer to ME i usually refer to things that happened in my game as "Shepard did this and that" while with Dragon age i say "MY warden did this and that" and even "I did this and that".

I was just completely immersed in the game.
i know you don't understand, you won't understand because you don't immerse yourself the same way i do.
as i've said before:
Mass Effect was like watching it.
Dragon Age was like living it.

i do like the former and it was an intense experience, but Dragon Age to me was something very different and so much more. I wanted more of that experience, specially because it's so rare nowadays, but it seems i will not find it as i expected in Dragon Age 2, as it was changed in favor of a cinematic experience i did not ask for.

and the problem with the dialogue wheel? Shepard ends up saying stuff that i never intended, forcing me to choose only the paragon option (which doesnt always say what i wanted either) to make sure that Shepard doesn't start punching people against my will.

Modifié par Crrash, 10 juillet 2010 - 01:00 .

[Sirsmirkalot]

Noviere wrote...
I don't get what control you lose. Do you
mean that you don't know exactly what words your character is going to
say? What if it had a traditional dialogue tree like DAO, but the man
character was fully voiced?

With control I mean what exact actions and wording my character is going to use. Image if I tell someone to turn off his alarm clock and he smashes it to pieces, he then basically did what I asked him to do. You can ofcourse go into detail and open up another wheel that states how you want him to turn it off, on which tone, ect... , but that just makes it unmanageable for developers and cumbersome for the user if you're going to do it for everything.

It's not a matter of patience, for
me. I've been playing CRPGs since Ultima 3 -- I am used to reading text.
I just find it a lot more engaging and immersive when my character
speaks, instead of staring blankly at the NPC she's supposed to be
chatting with.

I never said I was against VO, just the dialogue wheel.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 10 juillet 2010 - 01:14 .

[Lenyth]

Wheel please. I enjoyed the conversation wheel in Mass Effect and I think it would do well in Dragon Age. I believe that it brings more life to your character, hearing the emotion in their voice.

I'm not understanding why people are againt just the wheel. It's the exact same thing as the dialogue format in Origins...but in wheel form.

You can't please everyone I guess.

Anyway, it's not our choice, it's Bioware's.

[iTomes]

i think we should strictly seperate dieloque wheel and ME, for ME had nor "real" dialoques. we should propably look how other games (like Alphe Protocol) handled the dialoque wheel^^

[CybAnt1]

seems like you are no oldschool crpg player. if you would be then you should have recognized how voiced player characters are limiting the dialogues. 

Here's the thing people are not getting. Obviously, a voiced protagonist doesn't have to use a dialogue wheel; they used the traditional 1. 2. 3. system for Leliana's Song, and Leliana was fully voiced. But: of course, that was short, it was a DlC, not a full game. 

However, there's no doubt about it, fully voiced dialogue means less dialogue options, given a game's budget and time constraints, it has to. Obviously, that's something that might bother fans at the outset, but it's not what I see as the key issue. 

The thing about the wheel -- is it seems to pre-determine your choices and pre-cue your responses. Why should I be told which response is aggressive and which is friendly? It's pretty obvious when you read them. 

"Deekin, you are a pathetic wretch who can't sing worth a damn" is the unfriendly response
"Deekin, you are an inspiration to the party with your kobold warbling" is the friendly one

Why should I have a wheel which "cues" and tells me which is unfriendly or friendly, either by position on the wheel, color, or icon? Simple, the only purpose for this is to speed things along, so I don't have to read the dialogue, and just choose whatever response sets the "tone" I prefer. If the left side of the wheel is friendly and I always want to boost approval by always choosing friendly, I can just tell my twitchy brain to twitch left everytime the wheel pops up. 

It is removing yet another aspect of thought from the game in order to hasten and make faster the pacing - now even the dialogue is becoming more 'action-ized'. 

I understand Origins occasionally embedded "bracketized" clues into some dialogue to make clear its nature. To tell someone a lie it often said [Lie]. If the statement was meant to Intimidate it said [Intimidate]. But here's the point; the bracketized cue was optional and available, it wasn't present in every dialogue tree.

The wheel is going to tell us everytime, without having to read it, which statements/dialogue are aggressive, which are friendly, etc. Now we don't even have to read and think about the statements we're about to utter, we just select a portion of the wheel. Plus it looks like what I saw in Leliana's Song, and how it seems to work in Mass Effect: the wheel doesn't even contain what you're about to say, just a short phrase, so you never really know the full line you're about to say. This DOES move you from playing the character to watching the character more; it does. 

People who don't realize how this fundamentally changes the nature of the game don't get it. This may work in Mass Effect, which fine everyone acknowledges is a RPG-action/shooter hybrid. Some liked the hybridization, and some didn't. I'm tired of waging that argument: but Dragon Age was not also meant to be a hybrid, so why is it adopting this system?

[Sirsmirkalot]

It is removing yet another aspect of thought from the game in order to hasten and make faster the pacing

Is it really becomming faster though? It's not like you get an instant feedback of what you selected. You still need to either read the subtitles or listen for the complete VO to finish to find out how you reacted.

[CybAnt1]

What's becoming faster and more twitch-like/instinctive is the process of *selecting your response*; I understand that listening to the line still takes time.

[Bugzehat]

ME has plenty of dialogue options, often five plus an "investigate further". The problem with ME's dialogue wheel really is, for me, that it's fundamentally determined by the morality system -- you can only really be niceShep or nastyShep and the game punishes you for trying to play a more nuanced character. Devs have already confirmed that there's no morality system in DA2, which will restrain the dialogue choices a lot less. I really think we're going to have quite a lot of freedom in the dialogue system, calm down people!

Modifié par Bugzehat, 10 juillet 2010 - 01:32 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

You guys really should play Leiliana's Song if you haven't, it demostrates what ME dialog system will be like in DA.

[Estel78]

I'm with the thread starter. ME's dialog system worked just fine, actually i preferred it to DAO's, more cinematic and immersive, more fluid.



I also don't get the complaints that you didn't know beforehand exactly what Shepard will say. So what! I don't need to know every word, i had a pretty good idea what he was about to say by reading the cues.

[TheConfidenceMan]

The response wheel is one of the worst conventions to come along in a while. It limits the number of your possible responses/questions, categorizes them into extremes for you so subtle differences are nonexistent, and often the actual response doesn't jive with the shorthand tone presented.



It's a stupid tradeoff for a more "cinematic" experience.

[Hulk Hsieh]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

The response wheel is one of the worst conventions to come along in a while. It limits the number of your possible responses/questions, categorizes them into extremes for you so subtle differences are nonexistent, and often the actual response doesn't jive with the shorthand tone presented.

It's a stupid tradeoff for a more "cinematic" experience.

Wheel limiting the numbers of questions?
You mean Bioware haven't beening useing the infamous 3-options dialog systems before the wheel comes?

[-Semper-]

Luke Bioware wrote...

Seems like you didn't read all my posts here . I am a massive Baldur's Gate, Planescape and Knights fan for instance. I love those games, but do not agree with your point. Since Knights all different choices result in the same limited pool of answers you mostly hear. If you say something mean, it usually adds a disgruntled line and after that it reverts back to the original path. Wow... How immersive .

that's bad design and have nothing to do with voiced or unvoiced lines. to add voices defintely limits dialgoues. i don't like the wheel in mass effect because of the dull and short dialogues! this also happens to the last dlc bioware published. it feels totally plain... also the wheel sets the feeling that you are just reacting to what is said. you give away the control of the dialogue to the npc. also switching to different dialogue branches is sloppy - that's why there are so few branches within mass effect.

[Gaxhung]

-Semper- wrote...
that's bad design and have nothing to do with voiced or unvoiced lines. to add voices defintely limits dialgoues. i don't like the wheel in mass effect because of the dull and short dialogues! ...

In DAO even though it feels like there are more options, we actually have limited choices. Can we align with Loghain and lead Fereldan into civil war and a full blight? It is an illussion of choice. Of course I've only seen youtube videos of ME2.