55 réponses à ce sujet

[rooky91]

The following is a quote from an interview with Ray Muzyka from IGN. The interview is oldish but it does say this...

“IGN: Will there be gay relationships for the male Shepard? Here at IGN we've heard a lot of positive feedback from the inclusion of gay relationships in Dragon Age; compare that with the somewhat conspicuous absence of them from the first Mass Effect, especially with the chance for a lesbian relationship.

Ray Muzyka: Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional.

We're not saying that one approach is better than the other. In our previous games, as we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did in Baldur's Gate and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But that's by choice.

It's first person versus third person narrative, and the types of choices you get to make within that are related to that, whether you've got a pre-defined character or a wide-open character. Some of our games have been wide open, and some have been more constrained, and we'll probably continue both kinds of character development in the future. "

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/106/1066954p2.html

So with the structure of Dragon Age taking on a Third Person Narrative, will we lose some of this freedom?

Modifié par rooky91, 10 juillet 2010 - 01:53 .

[Lord_Saulot]

I'm not sure - we don't know how predefined Hawke is yet.

[Gill Kaiser]

Not necessarily, because Bioware might say that Hawke is a free love kind of guy. Just because they envisioned Shepard as a straight soldier doesn't mean squat, since Hawke is a different character. The precident for homosexual relationships in this franchise has already been set, so I'm not sure they'd squander that.

[Jonp382]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

I'm not sure - we don't know how predefined Hawke is yet.

He/she's a human. He's a refugee from Lothering. He's to be the champion of Kirkwall, he has a pre-determined voice.

[Giltspur]

Hopefully not. This is the sort of thing I'd like to see devs react to: differences in vision for Dragon Age in regards to Mass Effect. On the one hand, they could be moving towards an on-rails ME story. Or they could be keeping the current Dragon Age feel with a set character. What do I mean? Well, if your human character has a lot different paths he can take and the consequences of his decision alter the game, it's not an on-rails story and it can still be *your* character.



There are more decisions in RP than what race you want to be. No RPG allows you to make every decision. All RPG's have restrictions that you have to work with because they are all ultimately collaborations between the writer's rules and the gamer working within those constraints.



So Dragon Age may still have its core vision in tact. We're only aware of a freedom that's been taken away. But if there are sufficient other freedoms it isn't necessarily a net loss.

[Lord_Saulot]

Jonp382 wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...

I'm not sure - we don't know how predefined Hawke is yet.

He/she's a human. He's a refugee from Lothering. He's to be the champion of Kirkwall, he has a pre-determined voice.

Yes.  If that is the extent of his predefinition, then there will be many other things that are ours to choose during the course of the game.  Or he might be more predefined.  I don't really know.  But its still possible that you might get more meaningful choices on how to impact the game than even in Origins - its also possible that within the "refugee" background, there will be room for choices on who he is and how he got there, as refugees can be any sort of person.

[MaaZeus]

Giltspur wrote...

Hopefully not. This is the sort of thing I'd like to see devs react to: differences in vision for Dragon Age in regards to Mass Effect. On the one hand, they could be moving towards an on-rails ME story. Or they could be keeping the current Dragon Age feel with a set character. What do I mean? Well, if your human character has a lot different paths he can take and the consequences of his decision alter the game, it's not an on-rails story and it can still be *your* character.

There are more decisions in RP than what race you want to be. No RPG allows you to make every decision. All RPG's have restrictions that you have to work with because they are all ultimately collaborations between the writer's rules and the gamer working within those constraints.

So Dragon Age may still have its core vision in tact. We're only aware of a freedom that's been taken away. But if there are sufficient other freedoms it isn't necessarily a net loss.

Indeed. Compared to DA:O DA2 will only have one "origins" story, you are a dude/gal from Loithering and his/her last name is Hawke. Rest should be open, like his class, his personality and so on. Unless Bioware botches this up very badly, it still should be "your" character and you can shape him/her just like you could in DA:O or other RPGs in history.


So no, Pre-defined does not mean less freedom other than less choices in of your beginning. But beginning is not the whole game.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 10 juillet 2010 - 02:03 .

[ChuckNorris18]

check your grammar and spelling sir, I don't think pre-definded is a word.

[rooky91]

ChuckNorris18 wrote...

check your grammar and spelling sir, I don't think pre-definded is a word.

I honestly don't care, stay on topic

[ChuckNorris18]

okay then, We know were going to have a customizable character but with a preset origin race and voice, but we have another whole 10 years in game to define who our character becomes, how other people react to him, and how he shapes Kirkwall and maybe even the whole dragon age world. That doesn't sound too predefined to me.

[JeanLuc761]

All RPG's are pre-defined to one extent or another, simply due to constraint in dialogue choices and game limitations.  The level of definition varies from game to game.  Since it's a popular comparison, let's look at Commander Shepard vs. Your Origins Hero:

Commander Shepard:
- Choice of gender (2)
- Choice of origin (3)
- Choice of background (3)
- Choice of class (6)
- Choice of appearance (limited, but fairly diverse)
- Choose what your character says by using paraphrased "impulse tags" for smooth and lifelike conversation.
- Voice acted player character.
- Follow a fairly linear, yet epic story while determining how both your character and your allies develop.

Dragon Age Origins Hero:
- Choice of race (3)
- Choice of gender (2)
- Choice of class (3)
- Choice of origin (1-2 depending on race/class)
- Choice of apperance (very diverse)
- Choose what your character says using pre-defined responses (varied, but still limited)
- No voice acting for player character; can imagine voice if you wish.
- Follow a fairly linear, yet epic story while determining how both your character and your allies develop.

All considered, the two games are fairly similar as far as heroes go.  Dragon Age has a little more customization in terms of who your character is (and way more in the stats/armor area, but that's unimportant in my opinion). 

In my opinion, the people acting like Dragon Age taking a couple of cues from Mass Effect is somehow a disaster is just a blatant and unwarranted overreaction.

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 10 juillet 2010 - 02:24 .

[Revya]

Because it will only have one Origin the narrative will flow better.



Unlike the DA:O where after the Origins you only got flaver tex.

The game will be good and we will have Freedom and we will also so have a personal story (no kill the BIG BAD)



Finally from what I gather we will be able to import some DA:O stuff, thus Hawk will here about your exploits during the Blight.

[jennamarae]

rooky91 wrote...
So with the structure of Dragon Age taking on a Third Person Narrative, will we lose some of this freedom?

It's pretty obvious that we will. Maybe not all of it, but we're losing a lot of the freedom that we have in DAO. When something is pre-defined, it's unchangable. In DAO your character's personality is undefined when you start the game. Yeah there are set backgrounds, but you're still given the choice of how they affect you. Your casteless dwarf could rebel against their station in life and long for more or they could just accept it as the way things are. Your Dalish elf could despise all of humanity for events of the past, or be more open-minded and realize the actions of those in the past are not necessarily the same as those of the humans alive today.

It's the same for all the other origins. The origins might be the same for two characters, but they could react to it differently and it didn't necessarily shape their personalities the same way each time. I had a dwarf noble who was shocked and dismayed to find out what her brothers were capable of and another who respected their ability to play the game and held no hard-feelings towards them. I had an elven mage who was completely loyal to the Circle, even after being forced to leave because she was forced to help Jowan when she didn't want to. I had another who hated that she was trapped in the Circle and jumped at the chance to help her friend get out and was thrilled she was given an opportinity to leave. The situation was the same, but their reaction to it and the way it shaped their personalities was completely different.

Where did that difference come from? Choice. While playing the game I was my character. Each choice, each conversation, even each action built upon the ones before it to shape the personality of my character. Everything that was said or done happened because I wanted it to based on my characters personality. In ME and ME2? Not so much. I gave Shepard direction, yes. But I didn't control what she said really. I'd try to say something nice and she'd say something different that came across as "I don't really care. Leave or I'll punch you in the nose." I can't even count how many times I'd be sitting here thinking "That's not what I wanted you to say. And that's not how I wanted you to say it. Here I am trying to be nice and you're just being an ass..."

Yeah, VO's are great in that your character doesn't just stand there during a conversation but actions can be tied to dialog options without requiring a voice actor. For me it doesn't add to the experience to have a VO when I feel so removed from the game I might as well be watching a movie. I don't play rpg's to feel like I'm watching a movie, I play them so I can feel like I'm part of what's going on. I like having the illusion that what I choose to say and/or do affects the gameworld in some way. I'm aware that's it's just an illusion and that my choices have limited affect based on the confines of the game. Doesn't matter though, I still like the illusion. Adding a VO to the main-character in DA2 means it won't be my character anymore. It'll be someone else's character that I'm playing with for a while.

[Kalcalan]

From what we know so far (from gameinformer), Hawke is a coward who fled Ferelden during the Blight when the Grey Warden and Alistair made a stand:

"However, rather than stay and fight the darkspawn menace, Hawke flees Ferelden and heads north."

Hawke didn't stay to try and defend his/her homeland. He/she didn't make his/her way to Denerim or Redcliffe to help in the fight against the Blight.

It means that if you want your Hawke to be a "hero" then you have to accept the fact that Hawke ran away and that it is an act of cowardice he/she is going to have to live with.

Modifié par Kalcalan, 10 juillet 2010 - 03:27 .

[Zanderat]

rooky91 wrote...

The following is a quote from an interview with Ray Muzyka from IGN. The interview is oldish but it does say this...

“IGN: Will there be gay relationships for the male Shepard? Here at IGN we've heard a lot of positive feedback from the inclusion of gay relationships in Dragon Age; compare that with the somewhat conspicuous absence of them from the first Mass Effect, especially with the chance for a lesbian relationship.

Ray Muzyka: Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional.

We're not saying that one approach is better than the other. In our previous games, as we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did in Baldur's Gate and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But that's by choice.

It's first person versus third person narrative, and the types of choices you get to make within that are related to that, whether you've got a pre-defined character or a wide-open character. Some of our games have been wide open, and some have been more constrained, and we'll probably continue both kinds of character development in the future. "

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/106/1066954p2.html

So with the structure of Dragon Age taking on a Third Person Narrative, will we lose some of this freedom?

Well, since it is obvious that they either lied or worse backed down to EA pressure, I would have to say yes.

Modifié par Zanderat, 10 juillet 2010 - 06:10 .

[Anathemic]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

All RPG's are pre-defined to one extent or another, simply due to constraint in dialogue choices and game limitations.  The level of definition varies from game to game.  Since it's a popular comparison, let's look at Commander Shepard vs. Your Origins Hero:

Commander Shepard:
- Choice of gender (2)
- Choice of origin (3)
- Choice of background (3)
- Choice of class (6)
- Choice of appearance (limited, but fairly diverse)
- Choose what your character says by using paraphrased "impulse tags" for smooth and lifelike conversation.
- Voice acted player character.
- Follow a fairly linear, yet epic story while determining how both your character and your allies develop.

Dragon Age Origins Hero:
- Choice of race (3)
- Choice of gender (2)
- Choice of class (3)
- Choice of origin (1-2 depending on race/class)
- Choice of apperance (very diverse)
- Choose what your character says using pre-defined responses (varied, but still limited)
- No voice acting for player character; can imagine voice if you wish.
- Follow a fairly linear, yet epic story while determining how both your character and your allies develop.

All considered, the two games are fairly similar as far as heroes go.  Dragon Age has a little more customization in terms of who your character is (and way more in the stats/armor area, but that's unimportant in my opinion). 

In my opinion, the people acting like Dragon Age taking a couple of cues from Mass Effect is somehow a disaster is just a blatant and unwarranted overreaction.

There were more origins than 1-2: mage, dwarf commoner, dwarf noble, human noble, city elf, dalish elf
And don't forget the moral compass
Mass Effect
Paragon
Neutral
Renegade

Dragon Age
Positive
Neutral
Negative
Sarcastic
Evil
Heroic
Determined
Pessimistic
Optimistic
Ruthless
Cunning
Persuasive
Intimidate
Intelligence
Caring/Loving
Do i need to speak more?

[Fishy]

Kalcalan wrote...

From what we know so far (from gameinformer), Hawke is a coward who fled Ferelden during the Blight when the Grey Warden and Alistair made a stand:

"However, rather than stay and fight the darkspawn menace, Hawke flees Ferelden and heads north."

Hawke didn't stay to try and defend his/her homeland. He/she didn't make his/her way to Denerim or Redcliffe to help in the fight against the Blight.

It means that if you want your Hawke to be a "hero" then you have to accept the fact that Hawke ran away and that it is an act of cowardice he/she is going to have to live with.

and your cousland he's a coward for leaving his father and mother to die.
After seing the screenshot and heard that hawke will become the greatest Hero of thedas.I realy doubt he's a coward.

No i think he's just very intelligent.

Modifié par Suprez30, 10 juillet 2010 - 06:23 .

[JeanLuc761]

Anathemic wrote...
There were more origins than 1-2: mage, dwarf commoner, dwarf noble, human noble, city elf, dalish elf
And don't forget the moral compass
Mass Effect
Paragon
Neutral
Renegade

Dragon Age
Positive
Neutral
Negative
Sarcastic
Evil
Heroic
Determined
Pessimistic
Optimistic
Ruthless
Cunning
Persuasive
Intimidate
Intelligence
Caring/Loving
Do i need to speak more?

You need to speak more if you're trying to prove a point here.  For the classes, there are a lot of them BUT I was simply saying 1-2 per class/race (which is certainly the case).
I definitely agree that the "morality" system in Dragon Age is infinitely better, but there's no indication that's going away either.

[Anathemic]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

You need to speak more if you're trying to prove a point here.  For the classes, there are a lot of them BUT I was simply saying 1-2 per class/race (which is certainly the case).
I definitely agree that the "morality" system in Dragon Age is infinitely better, but there's no indication that's going away either.

With the combination of a pre-determined character, VO, and dialogue wheel, the moral compass is being restricted, there is no immersion whilst all you can do is guide/steer the main character.

[Leafs43]

Anathemic wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

All RPG's are pre-defined to one extent or another, simply due to constraint in dialogue choices and game limitations.  The level of definition varies from game to game.  Since it's a popular comparison, let's look at Commander Shepard vs. Your Origins Hero:

Commander Shepard:
- Choice of gender (2)
- Choice of origin (3)
- Choice of background (3)
- Choice of class (6)
- Choice of appearance (limited, but fairly diverse)
- Choose what your character says by using paraphrased "impulse tags" for smooth and lifelike conversation.
- Voice acted player character.
- Follow a fairly linear, yet epic story while determining how both your character and your allies develop.

Dragon Age Origins Hero:
- Choice of race (3)
- Choice of gender (2)
- Choice of class (3)
- Choice of origin (1-2 depending on race/class)
- Choice of apperance (very diverse)
- Choose what your character says using pre-defined responses (varied, but still limited)
- No voice acting for player character; can imagine voice if you wish.
- Follow a fairly linear, yet epic story while determining how both your character and your allies develop.

All considered, the two games are fairly similar as far as heroes go.  Dragon Age has a little more customization in terms of who your character is (and way more in the stats/armor area, but that's unimportant in my opinion). 

In my opinion, the people acting like Dragon Age taking a couple of cues from Mass Effect is somehow a disaster is just a blatant and unwarranted overreaction.

There were more origins than 1-2: mage, dwarf commoner, dwarf noble, human noble, city elf, dalish elf
And don't forget the moral compass
Mass Effect
Paragon
Neutral
Renegade

Dragon Age
Good
Neutral
Evil

Fixed.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

All RPG's are pre-defined to one extent or another, simply due to constraint in dialogue choices and game limitations.  The level of definition varies from game to game.  Since it's a popular comparison, let's look at Commander Shepard vs. Your Origins Hero:
*snip*

First of all: Mass Effect didn't have Origin stories.  It had little text blurbs you could pick for yourself that ultimately didn't matter beyond a couple of sidequest and a few dialogue lines.  Secondly, class choice in Dragon age had far more depth than in ME2.  In ME2 you pick the class that you want to play based off the promotional videos and that's all there is to it.  That class doesn't really change at all going form the beginning to the end of the game.  In Dragon Age, your class "grows" with you.  You start out and can pick some basic skills but then it's entirely up for you how you play that class.  Specializations further define how you play that class.  2 rogue's can play the game drastically differently from each other, 2 vanguard's cannot.

[Jaduggar]

Anathemic wrote...

With the combination of a pre-determined character, VO, and dialogue wheel, the moral compass is being restricted, there is no immersion whilst all you can do is guide/steer the main character.

Have you not played Planescape: Torment?

God damn...

[Jaduggar]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

First of all: Mass Effect didn't have Origin stories.  It had little text blurbs you could pick for yourself that ultimately didn't matter beyond a couple of sidequest and a few dialogue lines.  Secondly, class choice in Dragon age had far more depth than in ME2.  In ME2 you pick the class that you want to play based off the promotional videos and that's all there is to it.  That class doesn't really change at all going form the beginning to the end of the game.  In Dragon Age, your class "grows" with you.  You start out and can pick some basic skills but then it's entirely up for you how you play that class.  Specializations further define how you play that class.  2 rogue's can play the game drastically differently from each other, 2 vanguard's cannot.

That came with the fact that the combat in Dragon Age was horribly unbalanced and favored certain classes over others.

I played through Mass Effect three times, twice on the most difficult setting.
Each playthrough felt completely different. Each one required the same about of planning.

And by the way?
Mass Effect also has more classes than DA:O, so you also need to take that into consideration.

Six balanced to three who are only balanced under certain conditions.

And how the hell did any of the origins matter in the long run?
You got to pretend they shaped your character in some format? It didn't change the game at all unless you returned to the place of your specific origin.

That's what?
Four whole hours of your origin being given place in your 50-hour journey?

[Anathemic]

Jaduggar wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

First of all: Mass Effect didn't have Origin stories.  It had little text blurbs you could pick for yourself that ultimately didn't matter beyond a couple of sidequest and a few dialogue lines.  Secondly, class choice in Dragon age had far more depth than in ME2.  In ME2 you pick the class that you want to play based off the promotional videos and that's all there is to it.  That class doesn't really change at all going form the beginning to the end of the game.  In Dragon Age, your class "grows" with you.  You start out and can pick some basic skills but then it's entirely up for you how you play that class.  Specializations further define how you play that class.  2 rogue's can play the game drastically differently from each other, 2 vanguard's cannot.

That came with the fact that the combat in Dragon Age was horribly unbalanced and favored certain classes over others.

I played through Mass Effect three times, twice on the most difficult setting.
Each playthrough felt completely different. Each one required the same about of planning.

And by the way?
Mass Effect also has more classes than DA:O, so you also need to take that into consideration.

Six balanced to three who are only balanced under certain conditions.

And how the hell did any of the origins matter in the long run?
You got to pretend they shaped your character in some format? It didn't change the game at all unless you returned to the place of your specific origin.

That's what?
Four whole hours of your origin being given place in your 50-hour journey?

I stopped there, if you want to debate over it fine, but we all love RPG's and what does RPG stand for? Role-playing Game. Go ahead if you want to insult RP by using words like 'pretend' or 'make-believe' your voice wont' be heard.

[JeanLuc761]

Anathemic wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

You need to speak more if you're trying to prove a point here.  For the classes, there are a lot of them BUT I was simply saying 1-2 per class/race (which is certainly the case).
I definitely agree that the "morality" system in Dragon Age is infinitely better, but there's no indication that's going away either.

With the combination of a pre-determined character, VO, and dialogue wheel, the moral compass is being restricted, there is no immersion whilst all you can do is guide/steer the main character.

I get the feeling you're missing my point somewhat.  Both games have pre-defined characters on one level or another, and I've never been one to see how voice acting or a dialogue wheel eliminates immersion. 

Trust me told, my only real gripe with Dragon Age (besides the occasionally clunky combat) was that my character would stand around like a mute idiot during emotional/intense moments.  For me, that's what ruins immersion.