55 réponses à ce sujet

[Maverick827]

Jonp382 wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...

I'm not sure - we don't know how predefined Hawke is yet.

He/she's a human. He's a refugee from Lothering. He's to be the champion of Kirkwall, he has a pre-determined voice.

"He/she is a human or an elf.  He is a mage from the Circle Tower.  He is to be the next Grey Warden, he has one of five voices but it doesn't matter at all."

[Anathemic]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I get the feeling you're missing my point somewhat.  Both games have pre-defined characters on one level or another, and I've never been one to see how voice acting or a dialogue wheel eliminates immersion. 

Trust me told, my only real gripe with Dragon Age (besides the occasionally clunky combat) was that my character would stand around like a mute idiot during emotional/intense moments.  For me, that's what ruins immersion.

It's better that guiding/steering a preset character to make the story, with no VO I can rolepaly myself in doing that chracter's voice, the dialogue wheel limits that choice (come on, how much dialogue can you put on the wheel without an 'Investigate' option?)
Dragon Age: Origins I lived the story
Mass Effect 1 and 2, I watched the story

[Jaduggar]

Anathemic wrote...

I stopped there, if you want to debate over it fine, but we all love RPG's and what does RPG stand for? Role-playing Game. Go ahead if you want to insult RP by using words like 'pretend' or 'make-believe' your voice wont' be heard.

Again, you're really not getting it.

We are all fine to be immersed into the game and take on the role. In fact, that's the damn point, but if there has been no recoil whatsoever, and no options to reveal the impact that our actions have had, then where is the evidence of anything ever having happened?

There is no where in the game that our origin did anything to our character.
We don't speak of it.
We don't hear of it.

That's not immersive.

[JeanLuc761]

Anathemic wrote...
It's better that guiding/steering a preset character to make the story, with no VO I can rolepaly myself in doing that chracter's voice, the dialogue wheel limits that choice (come on, how much dialogue can you put on the wheel without an 'Investigate' option?)
Dragon Age: Origins I lived the story
Mass Effect 1 and 2, I watched the story

I'd argue it's just a difference in preference then, so I won't really debate that with you.  For me, I have extreme difficulty in inventing a voice for mute protagonists.  Regardless, I'm able to "live" both Dragon Age and Mass Effect, just in somewhat different ways. 

[Jaduggar]

Anathemic wrote...

It's better that guiding/steering a preset character to make the story, with no VO I can rolepaly myself in doing that chracter's voice, the dialogue wheel limits that choice (come on, how much dialogue can you put on the wheel without an 'Investigate' option?)
Dragon Age: Origins I lived the story
Mass Effect 1 and 2, I watched the story

Again, play Planescape: Torment, and then return to this thread if you still have an argument.

[Anathemic]

Jaduggar wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I stopped there, if you want to debate over it fine, but we all love RPG's and what does RPG stand for? Role-playing Game. Go ahead if you want to insult RP by using words like 'pretend' or 'make-believe' your voice wont' be heard.

Again, you're really not getting it.

We are all fine to be immersed into the game and take on the role. In fact, that's the damn point, but if there has been no recoil whatsoever, and no options to reveal the impact that our actions have had, then where is the evidence of anything ever having happened?

There is no where in the game that our origin did anything to our character.
We don't speak of it.
We don't hear of it.

That's not immersive.

I'm a city or dalish elf I am a second-grade citizen who is looked down upon by humans
I'm a human noble, my famiyl was killed, and now have a reason to go after Howe (one of the main enemies)
I'm a mage, I am feared by many and looked down upon by the Chantry and their templars
(Dwarves Origins I haven't played, but you get the idea)
Our origin stories defined who we were, I don't see why you say we don't hear of it or speak of it.

[Leafs43]

Anathemic wrote...

I'm a city or dalish elf I am a second-grade citizen who is looked down upon by humans
I'm a human noble, my famiyl was killed, and now have a reason to go after Howe (one of the main enemies)
I'm a mage, I am feared by many and looked down upon by the Chantry and their templars
(Dwarves Origins I haven't played, but you get the idea)
Our origin stories defined who we were, I don't see why you say we don't hear of it or speak of it.

Technically the guy you quoted is right.


The only thing that choosing a race did was add a few dialog quips here and there.  It did absolutely nothing to change the outcome of the game.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Jaduggar wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

First of all: Mass Effect didn't have Origin stories.  It had little text blurbs you could pick for yourself that ultimately didn't matter beyond a couple of sidequest and a few dialogue lines.  Secondly, class choice in Dragon age had far more depth than in ME2.  In ME2 you pick the class that you want to play based off the promotional videos and that's all there is to it.  That class doesn't really change at all going form the beginning to the end of the game.  In Dragon Age, your class "grows" with you.  You start out and can pick some basic skills but then it's entirely up for you how you play that class.  Specializations further define how you play that class.  2 rogue's can play the game drastically differently from each other, 2 vanguard's cannot.

That came with the fact that the combat in Dragon Age was horribly unbalanced and favored certain classes over others.

I played through Mass Effect three times, twice on the most difficult setting.
Each playthrough felt completely different. Each one required the same about of planning.

And by the way?
Mass Effect also has more classes than DA:O, so you also need to take that into consideration.

Six balanced to three who are only balanced under certain conditions.

And how the hell did any of the origins matter in the long run?
You got to pretend they shaped your character in some format? It didn't change the game at all unless you returned to the place of your specific origin.

That's what?
Four whole hours of your origin being given place in your 50-hour journey?

Some classes were more powerful than others in Dragon Age that much is true, but all 3 classes could playthrough any difficulty quite competently.

Mass Effect's classes were distinct from each other: but they didn't develop at all beyond the first hour.  A vanguard played the same in the first hour as it did in the last.

In DA:O I could play:

Sword and Shield Warrior Tank
Sword and Shield Warrior DPS
Dual Wielding Warrior Tank
Dual Wielding Warrior DPS
2 Hander Tank
2 hander DPS
Archery Warrior
Dual Wielding Rogue DPS
Dual Wielding Rogue Backstabbing (Focus on eliminating key targets rather than just getting high attackspeed)
Archery Rogue (Differs from Warrior as you can use Stealth in combination with it)
Mage Healer/Buffer
Mage DPS
Mage Debuffing
Mage AoE/Crowd Control
Mage Shapeshifter (Different playstyle than other Mages)
Mage Arcane Warrior (Different playstyle than other Mages)


And of course, most of these classes could be changed based on specializations.  Specializations open up new avenues of play, such as a Blood Mage using his own life to fuel spells or a Ranger using pets to tank.

As for Origins:  Origins mattered for one major reason.  Roleplaying Perspective.  The events in my character Origin story not only change how I look at related story events in the main game (Such as a Dwarf Noble returning to Orzammar compared to a Mage whose never been there) but they also help define my characters views on the world.  My City Elf is going to be more sympathetic to the plights of the Alienage than my Human Noble.  Origins shape your perspective of the game world, and open up plenty of roleplaying possibilities.

In mass effect because you do not experience the events of your "origins" really all they are is an idea.  I know I only ever picked Sole Survivor because I enjoyed the side quest it involved on the citadel more than the others.  (Plus I quite liked the idea of my Shepard being a broken individual yet hiding it from the world)

Whether or not I'm a Sole Survivor or a War Hero doesn't change my opinion on the gameworld though.  Even if I pick Sole Survivor and know that Batarians were the ones who caused those events, as the player I'm not going to care because I didn't see the Batarians do that; I can only read about it or hear my Shepard refer to it once in a while. (Even then, since Batarians didn't show up till the ME1 DLC it didn't much matter what I thought of them until ME2)

[ArcanistLibram]

It's not like the freedom of DAO's format meant all that much. I honestly cannot think of a single decision in the game that had anywhere near the impact of Shepard meeting Wrex again on Tuchanka if you talked him down on Virmire.

[Jaduggar]

Anathemic wrote...

I'm a city or dalish elf I am a second-grade citizen who is looked down upon by humans
I'm a human noble, my famiyl was killed, and now have a reason to go after Howe (one of the main enemies)
I'm a mage, I am feared by many and looked down upon by the Chantry and their templars
(Dwarves Origins I haven't played, but you get the idea)
Our origin stories defined who we were, I don't see why you say we don't hear of it or speak of it.

I'm a human refugee, I was forced from my birthplace by the darkspawn and forced to survive under my own in the lands of the north.

[Anathemic]

Jaduggar wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I'm a city or dalish elf I am a second-grade citizen who is looked down upon by humans
I'm a human noble, my famiyl was killed, and now have a reason to go after Howe (one of the main enemies)
I'm a mage, I am feared by many and looked down upon by the Chantry and their templars
(Dwarves Origins I haven't played, but you get the idea)
Our origin stories defined who we were, I don't see why you say we don't hear of it or speak of it.

I'm a human refugee, I was forced from my birthplace by the darkspawn and forced to survive under my own in the lands of the north.

And that's the only origin... in the whole game and..

Fixed: Hawke is a human refugee, Hawke was forced from his/her birthplace by the darkspawn
and forced to survive under his/her own in the lands of the north.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Jaduggar wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I'm a city or dalish elf I am a second-grade citizen who is looked down upon by humans
I'm a human noble, my famiyl was killed, and now have a reason to go after Howe (one of the main enemies)
I'm a mage, I am feared by many and looked down upon by the Chantry and their templars
(Dwarves Origins I haven't played, but you get the idea)
Our origin stories defined who we were, I don't see why you say we don't hear of it or speak of it.

I'm a human refugee, I was forced from my birthplace by the darkspawn and forced to survive under my own in the lands of the north.

And you have no option of being anything else.  It kills replayability.

[JeanLuc761]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Jaduggar wrote...
I'm a human refugee, I was forced from my birthplace by the darkspawn and forced to survive under my own in the lands of the north.

And you have no option of being anything else.  It kills replayability.

I don't see how, at least not easily.  The origin stories in DA:O made a big difference for the introduction of the game, but the endgame was still almost exactly the same, and the journey was barely different.  It's the choices you make during the course of the game that really make the game replayable for me.  Mass Effect has extremely high replay value even though Shepard is still basically the same person every time you start.

[MaaZeus]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Jaduggar wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I'm a city or dalish elf I am a second-grade citizen who is looked down upon by humans
I'm a human noble, my famiyl was killed, and now have a reason to go after Howe (one of the main enemies)
I'm a mage, I am feared by many and looked down upon by the Chantry and their templars
(Dwarves Origins I haven't played, but you get the idea)
Our origin stories defined who we were, I don't see why you say we don't hear of it or speak of it.

I'm a human refugee, I was forced from my birthplace by the darkspawn and forced to survive under my own in the lands of the north.

And you have no option of being anything else.  It kills replayability.

What the hell? Does the fixed origin immidietly mean that rest of the story and how it progresses is fixed? Again, go play Planescape Torment, The Witcher and so on. Hell, even Mass Effect had replay value despite its rather fixed progress, as you could be 100% different person and the world shaped around that.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:07 .

[Anathemic]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I don't see how, at least not easily.  The origin stories in DA:O made a big difference for the introduction of the game, but the endgame was still almost exactly the same, and the journey was barely different.  It's the choices you make during the course of the game that really make the game replayable for me.  Mass Effect has extremely high replay value even though Shepard is still basically the same person every time you start.

Mass Effect replayability: I'm Shepard, again, and again, and again
Dragon Age: Origins replayability: I can be a dwarf noble, dalish elf, city elf, etc.

Sure the journey may not be different looking at it from a linear view, but to really make yourself different, it's immersion, roleplaying, you can make your character different each time, the journey doesn't make the character, you do.

[JeanLuc761]

Anathemic wrote...
Mass Effect replayability: I'm Shepard, again, and again, and again
Dragon Age: Origins replayability: I can be a dwarf noble, dalish elf, city elf, etc.

Sure the journey may not be different looking at it from a linear view, but to really make yourself different, it's immersion, roleplaying, you can make your character different each time, the journey doesn't make the character, you do.

While it's true that "I am Shepard again and again", Dragon Age can easily be equated to "I'm a Grey Warden again and again." 

The origin stories differ, as does my physical appearance (obviously), but the journey is still the same.

[Jaduggar]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Some classes were more powerful than others in Dragon Age that much is true, but all 3 classes could playthrough any difficulty quite competently.

Mass Effect's classes were distinct from each other: but they didn't develop at all beyond the first hour.  A vanguard played the same in the first hour as it did in the last.

In DA:O I could play:

Sword and Shield Warrior Tank - You start as tank, become even more of a tank.
Sword and Shield Warrior DPS - I'm not even sure this exists.
Dual Wielding Warrior Tank - You start out dealing combos and pumping potions, become better at dealing combos and people start to miss you more often.
Dual Wielding Warrior DPS - You start out dealing combos, end up dealing more combos.
2 Hander Tank - same as S&S tank
2 hander DPS - Is this possible (Again, I only played on the two highest difficulties. Sten would fall easily in battle even as a tank)?
Archery Warrior - Unuseable at higher difficulties.
Dual Wielding Rogue DPS - Same as Dual Wielding Warrior Tank.
Dual Wielding Rogue Backstabbing (Focus on eliminating key targets rather than just getting high attackspeed) - I never used this so I can't comment on it.
Archery Rogue (Differs from Warrior as you can use Stealth in combination with it) - Again I stayed away from rogues.
Mages - Stop listing them individually, you cannot be one specific type of mage. In order to help your argument: Mages are the most versaitle class that are ever evolving into different malleable assets for the team.


And of course, most of these classes could be changed based on specializations.  Specializations open up new avenues of play, such as a Blood Mage using his own life to fuel spells or a Ranger using pets to tank.

Eh, not really. They add new skills, sure, but they only started to change the play style in Awakenings.

As for Origins:  Origins mattered for one major reason.  Roleplaying Perspective.  The events in my character Origin story not only change how I look at related story events in the main game (Such as a Dwarf Noble returning to Orzammar compared to a Mage whose never been there) but they also help define my characters views on the world.  My City Elf is going to be more sympathetic to the plights of the Alienage than my Human Noble.  Origins shape your perspective of the game world, and open up plenty of roleplaying possibilities.

Like I said, these only play into the picture when you return to your home.
If you could provide a solid example outside of that, then you'd be speaking a language I can understand.

In mass effect because you do not experience the events of your "origins" really all they are is an idea.  I know I only ever picked Sole Survivor because I enjoyed the side quest it involved on the citadel more than the others.  (Plus I quite liked the idea of my Shepard being a broken individual yet hiding it from the world)

Mass Effect origins came into play for even a smaller amount of time than the ones in DA:O, there's no argument about that. But, again, that's not really saying much.

Whether or not I'm a Sole Survivor or a War Hero doesn't change my opinion on the gameworld though.  Even if I pick Sole Survivor and know that Batarians were the ones who caused those events, as the player I'm not going to care because I didn't see the Batarians do that; I can only read about it or hear my Shepard refer to it once in a while. (Even then, since Batarians didn't show up till the ME1 DLC it didn't much matter what I thought of them until ME2)

What I enjoyed about Mass Effect 2 is that you can shape some of your decisions around the world you've become a part of. I really liked the part where you basically had to choose whether or not the Krogans were going to be able to breed again in the future. I had to think outside of myself, outside what had happened to me in the past.

You're history didn't matter so much as did the person you were shaping into now.

[Felfenix]

Hawke should be a predefined homosexual.

Also, where the hell are people getting the idea that this will have ME2 combat?

Modifié par Felfenix, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:17 .

[Dave of Canada]

Leafs43 wrote...

Technically the guy you quoted is right.


The only thing that choosing a race did was add a few dialog quips here and there.  It did absolutely nothing to change the outcome of the game.

But helped define who your character was, I let the Origin stories flow and how my character would react to it. For example, a Dwarf Noble could roleplay that all he's doing in Orzammar is to teach Bhelen a lesson and while he was generally a nice guy - he was after Bhelen's throat.

[Jaduggar]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

And you have no option of being anything else.  It kills replayability.

Alright, I can see how that would kill it for some people.

But what would you rather have?

One playthrough where the narrative is extremely focused on the player and brings everything back to a personal level about the person you are shaping yourself to become?

Or three playthroughs where the narrative only focuses on you when it's necessary, and who you become doesn't matter so much as what you want to happen to the world?

Modifié par Jaduggar, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:21 .

[Dave of Canada]

Jaduggar wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

I'm a human refugee, I was forced from my birthplace by the darkspawn and forced to survive under my own in the lands of the north.

And you have no option of being anything else.  It kills replayability.

Alright, I can see how that would kill it for some people.

But what would you rather have?

One playthrough where the narrative is extremely focused on the player and brings everything back to a personal level about the person you are shaping yourself to become?

Or three playthroughs where the narrative only focuses on you when it's necessary, and who you become doesn't matter so much as what you want to happen to the world?

IMO, replayability.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:21 .

[Jaduggar]

Dave of Canada wrote...
IMO, replayability.

And that's why I want to hit you over the head with a little bit of Kafka.
:3

EDIT:
And sorry for making you quote that.
I took an ugly stick to the format, there.

Modifié par Jaduggar, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:25 .

[Anathemic]

Jaduggar wrote...

Alright, I can see how that would kill it for some people.

But what would you rather have?

One playthrough where the narrative is extremely focused on the player and brings everything back to a personal level about the person you are shaping yourself to become?

Or three playthroughs where the narrative only focuses on you when it's necessary, and who you become doesn't matter so much as what you want to happen to the world?

Rather have replayability oh and...

Fixed: One playthrough where the narrative is extremely focused on Hawke and brings everything back to a personal level about the person you are shaping for Hawke to become?

Modifié par Anathemic, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:26 .

[Jaduggar]

Anathemic, are you Gordon Freeman, or is Gordon Freeman Gordon Freeman?

EDIT:
"Rather have replayability..."

I feel like you're going back on your word.

Modifié par Jaduggar, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:32 .

[Anathemic]

Gordon Freeman is Gordan Freeman, and please that's not even a RPG, more like a shooter