99 réponses à ce sujet

[zahra]

LPPrince wrote...

zahra wrote...

Jeeeeeeeeez why is everyone so touchy nowadays. Every post turns into some sort of personal argument instead of a calm discussion. 

Welcome to the Bioware forums pre-game release, and enjoy your stay.

Oh, how cheery. 

[IronVanguard]

I know how we can cover the VO costs.



Let me do it! I have a terrible voice, but I'm cheap! Just the cost of the flight, and some living expenses, and some DA memorabilia, and DA:2.

[thisisdell]

I agree. I want an option to listen to a Codex while I am playing the game. Like Bioshock. I missed a lot of stuff I am sure. Because I was playing the game, not reading a book.

[Trooper Guy1]

thisisdell wrote...

I agree. I want an option to listen to a Codex while I am playing the game. Like Bioshock. I missed a lot of stuff I am sure. Because I was playing the game, not reading a book.

It is still interesting to read the lore that they worked really hard on. Though I guess for some people it is too hard to read and it "taeks uapz mah tiemh huwo waunts to red?"

[Trooper Guy1]

Trooper Guy1 wrote...

thisisdell wrote...

I agree. I want an option to listen to a Codex while I am playing the game. Like Bioshock. I missed a lot of stuff I am sure. Because I was playing the game, not reading a book.

It is still interesting to read the lore that they worked really hard on. Though I guess for some people it is too hard to read and it "taeks uapz mah tiemh huwo waunts to red?"

Actually you know what they might aswell since they want to cater to a wider audience.

[Mdfitz]

i dont read very fast so im all for it

[soteria]

Ok, fine, so you say it's a huge waste because you and a few other people agree that it's a waste. Well what about those who disagree? What about those who say the exact opposite, and that their experience would be hugely enhanced by an audio codex? Their opinion is just as valid as yours.

So what if it costs money? Every single feature in any game costs money. And for every feature, in every game, I'm sure you can find a few people who will agree that feature "xxx" was a waste and doesn't make sense, and that they would have done things differently had they been in charge.

And once again, you have nothing more to say than, "why not?" As for opinions being equally valid, sure.  Assume there's three groups of people, though:  those that want the feature, those that hate it, and those that won't read the codex either way/just don't care.  If all three groups are of similar size, then the people who wouldn't read or wouldn't enjoy a voiced codex outnumber the others 2:1.  Not that game are designed by democracy, but it doesn't make much sense to add a feature only a small portion of your audience will enjoy while others hate it.

You still have yet to even begin to address why a voiced codex is even appropriate in this setting.

So, that's 20 hours at a going rate of $1000 per 4-hour session (or $250.00 per hour) = $5,000

Now, you might say $5k is a lot for just one guy for only 20 hours of work, and compared to most of us you'd be right. My guess is that DA:O's low level QA testers probably didn't make much over $20k for a whole year's worth of work.

But now consider that you've got a product pulling in over $100,000,000 and suddenly $5k doesn't seem like so much, even if you have over 200 people working on the project (which Bioware did).

I really don't care about the numbers much--they're more or less irrelevant to my point--but you're ignoring a lot of costs, including localization and editing costs. Presumably these games are voiced in *every* language the game is released in, yes? So add the sound engineer's time, which isn't cheap, and multiply it by the number of languages.

You're completely ignoring the concept of a budget. Resources come from somewhere--they can't just magically come up with a random sum of money and throw it at the game. Your $5,000 (or whatever) was $5,000 taken away from some other project. Maybe it's money they could have spent on producing a more accurate manual or better tooltips or another guy doing QA and finding bugs for a few days. Money is finite--even if EA/Bioware figures they're going to make however much profit off a game, they're not going to say, "Well, it's going to be successful, so why not spend a few grand here and there." That would cut into their profit even if the game didn't have a certain budget.

Modifié par soteria, 14 juillet 2010 - 08:20 .

[KOKitten]

I disliked the talking Codex in ME2.  I can read the Codex faster than listening to it and the narrator's voice was boring.  I muted it everytime and read the entries.

I don't care if there is a talking Codex in DA2 as long as you can still read it.  I'll just mute it again.

[atheelogos]

Wonderllama4 wrote...

I figure, if we're going to take the dialogue wheel from Mass Effect, we might as well take the Codex system too! I admit I don't read a lot of the codex entries from Dragon Age, but I would certainly listen to them if I could. Duncan's VA should be the narrator. or Brother Genitivi, since he writes most of the stuff

If they were able to make that happen I would love it. If not then its okay I wouldn't have a heart attack or anything but it would be a very nice option.

[dielveio]

The VA from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy should be codex VO.

[GodWood]

I hope they just make the text bigger.

[Vaeliorin]

Vlainstrike wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...
Honestly...I'd much rather have the $5k or whatever it might cost spent on a single hairstyle (or even another tattoo/different eyebrows/anything) other than being spent on what has to be one of the most annoying features I've ever encountered in a game.

And seriously...who can't eat a sandwich and read at the same time?

Again with the false dilemma.  Guess what - you can have tattoos, hairstyles AND an audio codex all at the same time! Holy crap! Who woulda thunk it...? /yawn

And if it's annoying for you, that's why you make it optional.  That way those that don't like it don't have to use it.

Why is it so hard to understand that more options would make the game better overall?  Or maybe we should just nix every feature every time a few people say they find it annoying. 

Some people are perfectly happy playing text only RPG's, so I guess DA2 should just cut out all the graphics, music & voice acting, because all that money could be spent on writers.

Um...what false dilemma?  I'm simply stating that I'd prefer that they spent whatever money they might spend on voicing the codex on a single additional hairstyle/tattoo/whatever because those things would actually be of use to everyone, unlike a voiced codex, which annoys quite a lot of people apparently.

So...that would be a strawman, not a false dilemma. 

Anyway, more options that are good for everyone are better than more options that are annoying to many and aren't particularly beneficial to anyone who doesn't hate reading (and I'm never willing to cater to people who don't want to read, sorry.)

Also, text-based RPGs are awesome.

[Vlainstrike]

soteria wrote...
And once again, you have nothing more to say than, "why not?" As for opinions being equally valid, sure.  Assume there's three groups of people, though:  those that want the feature, those that hate it, and those that won't read the codex either way/just don't care.  If all three groups are of similar size, then the people who wouldn't read or wouldn't enjoy a voiced codex outnumber the others 2:1.  Not that game are designed by democracy, but it doesn't make much sense to add a feature only a small portion of your audience will enjoy while others hate it.

Actually, I've said considerably more than 'why not'. And wow - that last paragraph of yours is filled with a whole lot of 'if's' and assumptions based on nothing, but you're right about one thing - games are most certainly not a democracy, and thank God for that; I shudder to think what games would degenerate into if that were so.  Even if it were a democracy, this thread is not even close to the kind of representative sample it would take to affirm the statistics you just made up.

soteria wrote...
You still have yet to even begin to address why a voiced codex is even appropriate in this setting.

You seem to be under the impression that I am somehow obligated to to satisfy some mysterious set of criteria that you made up that will justify my desire for an audio codex.  Well I've got news for you - this isn't a Bioware/EA boardroom; I'm not here trying to convince a bunch of money crunchers to allocate more funds into some pet project. I'm not even trying to get you to want what I want, but I certainly don't need to meet your standards in order to validate my opinion on what I like in a game.

soteria wrote...
I really don't care about the numbers much--they're more or less irrelevant to my point--but you're ignoring a lot of costs, including localization and editing costs. Presumably these games are voiced in *every* language the game is released in, yes? So add the sound engineer's time, which isn't cheap, and multiply it by the number of languages.
You're completely ignoring the concept of a budget. Resources come from somewhere--they can't just magically come up with a random sum of money and throw it at the game. Your $5,000 (or whatever) was $5,000 taken away from some other project. Maybe it's money they could have spent on producing a more accurate manual or better tooltips or another guy doing QA and finding bugs for a few days. Money is finite--even if EA/Bioware figures they're going to make however much profit off a game, they're not going to say, "Well, it's going to be successful, so why not spend a few grand here and there." That would cut into their profit even if the game didn't have a certain budget.

Well, for someone who claims they don't care about the numbers you certainly have alot to say about them.  Regardless of your self contradiction, I'm not ignoring the budget or the costs.  The argument has been put forth by several people that adding a voice actor for the codex would simply be far too costly to implement and so I put forth some actual figures to support my contention that this is not the case, and that whatever costs people were imagining are far greater than what it would actually cost in reality, and to then compare those figures against the budgets of other blockbuster-style productions. 

Unfortunatley Bioware hasn't released their actual budget (which you seem to believe was some absolutely set in stone inflexible number) for the first Dragon Age, but I believe some level of inference can be reasonably made based on several factors, including the high scope & quality of the game, the number and variety of staff & actors, the time in development, and comparisons to the published budgets of similar caliber titles (as found in the top 10 list I posted). Given these factors my guess is that the game cost somewhere between 10-50 million dollars - an admitedly large range to be sure, but even if it only cost 10million, then 5k, 10k, even 20k is chump change by comparison if that money goes towards enhancing Bioware's overall vision and marketability of the game.

When you start looking at some real data on how much it probably cost to make this game it becomes ludicrous to even suggest that simply adding one more voice actor would somehow break the budget. Have you seen the crazy number of voice actors Bioware used for this game? And several of the lead roles were A-list (if not B-list) talent.

Yes there are other costs in voice recording besides just paying the actor, but I don't believe even for a second that these costs are anywhere near what it costs to put people like Kate Mulgrew, Tim Curry, Simon Templeman, or Tim Russ in the game. Dragon Age had over 130 voice actors, and I'm supposed to believe that just one more guy would have put them over the edge budget-wise?

Not gonna happen.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:28 .

[Kalfear]

Trooper Guy1 wrote...

thisisdell wrote...

I agree. I want an option to listen to a Codex while I am playing the game. Like Bioshock. I missed a lot of stuff I am sure. Because I was playing the game, not reading a book.

It is still interesting to read the lore that they worked really hard on. Though I guess for some people it is too hard to read and it "taeks uapz mah tiemh huwo waunts to red?"

Actually smart guy, I find READING more then a few sentances at a time online hurts my eyes!

I missed ALOT of the codex from the first game cause I just cant read that much small letter typeing on my computer screen.

I dont read online books either, I buy the real things.
Id love VO for the codex because reading that amount on a computer screen hurts my eyes.

Ive played like 7 games of DA:O now so Ive picked up a fair amount of the codex just from seeing biuts and peices but im sure im still missing out on a good bluk portion of it.

[Vlainstrike]

dbl post - ffs, doesn't this forum have a delet post button?

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:12 .

[Demx]

The codex would probably be a lot smaller if it talked.

[soteria]

Actually, I've said considerably more than 'why not'. And wow - that last paragraph of yours is filled with a whole lot of 'if's' and assumptions based on nothing,

It's a reasonable assumption and a single if. A single "if" isn't a "whole lot of if's" last I checked, and the assumption that some people will be for a feature, others against it, and others won't care seems perfectly reasonable to me. In the absence of data, assuming all the groups are of equal size is the fairest thing I can think of to do. Feel free to dispute that--or don't. Scoffing is easier.

You seem to be under the impression that I am somehow obligated to to satisfy some mysterious set of criteria that justifies my desire for an audio codex. Well I've got news for you - this isn't a Bioware/EA boardroom; I'm not here trying to convince a bunch of money crunchers to allocate more funds into some pet project. I don't need to meet your standards in order to validate my opinion on what I like in a game.

You seem to be confused about why I'm here. Who ever said I even cared what your opinion was or thought you were under some obligation to reply to an argument? Your unwillingness or inability to respond to the argument merely lowers my opinion of you, but I can't imagine you care about that, do you? This is a forum on the internet. Last time I checked, we were having some kind of discussion, and I think the *normal* thing to do in a debate or any conversation is to respond to points that the other person makes.

I'll try again: You still have yet to even begin to address why a voiced codex is even appropriate in this setting. I happen to like guns in video games, but I'm not asking for them to be added to the weapons in Dragon Age because they wouldn't make sense. Neither would a voiced codex.

Well, for someone who claims they don't care about the numbers you certainly have alot to say about them. Regardless of your self contradiction, I'm not ignoring the budget or the costs. The argument has been put forth by several people that adding a voice actor for the codex would simply be far too costly to implement and so I put forth some actual figures to support my contention that this is not the case, and that whatever costs people were imagining are far greater than what it actually would cost in reality when compared to the budgets of other blockbuster-style productions.

There are several misunderstanding in this paragraph. First, I don't care about the specific numbers. If they spent $5 on this, I'd still think it was too much--spend the $5 on something else. I only pointed out the problem with your numbers because you seemed to care about their accuracy--maybe I was wrong, but since you took the time to go back and edit your calculations, I thought that was a reasonable assumption. Second, I'm not arguing now and never have argued that Bioware can't afford to do it. In fact, I corrected you last time you said that. I think the money should be spent on something else.

Is this the third or fourth time you've just waved away the idea of a budget? Like I said, I don't care about the *specific* numbers. You can make up any number you want for the actual costs or Bioware's budget. The fact is, any money they spend on *one* aspect of the game is money they could have spent on *another*. That's not an idea I made up--Bioware representatives have pointed this out in the past in response to requests for this feature or that. It baffles me why you would keep going on about how Bioware can afford this feature when I've never even tried to say they can't.

And finally... "5k, 10k, even 20k is chump change by comparison if that money goes towards enhancing Bioware's overall vision and marketability of the game." Seriously? A voiced codex? Yeah, *that's* something they can really use in their marketing.

[snfonseka]

Wonderllama4 wrote...

I figure, if we're going to take the dialogue wheel from Mass Effect, we might as well take the Codex system too! I admit I don't read a lot of the codex entries from Dragon Age, but I would certainly listen to them if I could. Duncan's VA should be the narrator. or Brother Genitivi, since he writes most of the stuff

Not for all, for the most important ones.

[Malanek]

Uneeded cost and bloat IMO.

[Vlainstrike]

soteria wrote...
You seem to be confused about why I'm here. Who ever said I even cared what your opinion was or thought you were under some obligation to reply to an argument? Your unwillingness or inability to respond to the argument merely lowers my opinion of you, but I can't imagine you care about that, do you? This is a forum on the internet. Last time I checked, we were having some kind of discussion, and I think the *normal* thing to do in a debate or any conversation is to respond to points that the other person makes.
I'll try again: You still have yet to even begin to address why a voiced codex is even appropriate in this setting. I happen to like guns in video games, but I'm not asking for them to be added to the weapons in Dragon Age because they wouldn't make sense. Neither would a voiced codex.

The following line implies that you want/care/need/desire/are interested in... (I honestly don't care how you phrase it) some response to this item which you believe is relevant to the topic of this thread, a thread which is about people wanting (or not wanting) an audio codex: 

soteria wrote...
You still have yet to even begin to address why a voiced codex is even appropriate in this setting.

My assumption is that you want me to answer that because it will give you some grounds to unleash whatever argument you've got stored up about why you think an audio codex would not be appropriate in this setting, and my response to that is: who cares?

I could sit here and give all sorts of reasons about how audio narration is an effective and commonly used device used to convey otherwise tedious exposition in various mediums including video games.  But why would I even want to do that? What's my motivation in this thread?  What is the relevance?  It is certainly not going to change my opinion about wanting that feature in Dragon Age.

If you want to get carried away with some tangent that I find irrelevant and ultimatley has no effect on my opinion, you certainly don't need me as a jumping off point. Knock yourslef out.

And no, I don't really give a crap what your opinion is of me.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:01 .

[soteria]

Well, if you're not here to discuss the issue, goodness knows why you've bothered to type up so many long posts about it. Why would you do that? What's your motivation in this thread? You tell me. You're here already--it's not as though I'm trying to draw you into some debate you're not already in.

I bring up the issue of setting because frankly I don't think you have any kind of response to it or you would have already posted it.

[Vlainstrike]

soteria wrote...
I bring up the issue of setting because frankly I don't think you have any kind of response to it or you would have already posted it.

Oh, well then, in order to help you fill in the blanks, I will offer some alternative possibilities as to why I haven't responded to your incessant preoccupation with the effects of an optional audio codex on setting: 

I don't care.
I don't believe it is relevant in this case.
A discussion on setting will not change my opinion.

(edit: here's another one - I can already envision how both sides of that entire discussion would play out and the concept bores me because when it's over we would both end up right back where we started - with you thinking the audio codex is inappropriate to the setting and me thinking that while you are free to have that opinion, the inclusion of an optional on/off feature negates any issue that like minded people might have with it)

Did I mention I don't care?

But don't let that stop you from telling everyone why you think an optional audio codex would destroy the setting.  Perhaps somebody else will care.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 15 juillet 2010 - 05:24 .

[HTTP 404]

I dont know why people are so adamantly against voice over codex. jeez. they could have a toggle button to turn off the voice or hit mute. does it really affect you if there is voice over? spending 5 grand or even 10 grand for someone to do the voice over work is a drop in the bucket.





On another note, where's a good place to buy a High Horse for me to ride on?