118 réponses à ce sujet

[RazorrX]

I killed Loghain, will kill him again this run through, may spare him on next.



Loghain is irrational because in first book the witch tells Maric that Loghain will betray him, each time worse than the last. Then she told him there was a blight coming but that he (Maric) would not live to see it. In the second Book Maric tells him about the blight and her prediction. Loghain tells Maric "There will NOT be a Blight." or something to that effect.



So to Loghain there is no blight. There can not be a blight. If the blight is real, the prediction that he is a traitor is real. He is not a traitor, so the blight can not be real . . .



Then he plots and has Calian killed (Because he wants to allow Orlais to send help). It is for the best of Ferelden, got to keep it safe. Loghain hates Orlais. Hates it with every fiber of his being. Fears that allowing even 1 soldier from there into Ferelden sets Ferelden up for another Occupation. IF there were a way to direct the blight (which is not a real blight because he is not a traitor) to Orlais he would.



But that is a betrayl to Maric AND Ferelden. He has Maric's child killed. It can be argued that he betrayed Maric with Rowan, He betrayed Maric by failing to tell him about how Katriel had turned on her masters, etc.



Near the end he realizes what he has done, and how the witch was right, but it is too late.



So is he worthy of redemption by being a grey warden?



After selling my people into slavery . . . nope.

[Poubo]

One of the toughest decisions i have had to make in any game, especially after reading both books. Alistair is so much like Maric it's unbelievable, in fact i felt like a Loghain figure throughout.



To me, Loghain was a hero that deserved a chance at redemption, while Alistair wasn't thinking clearly at all, the fact that he would abandon everything over this was shameful, I chose to let Loghain live and Alistair left. In the end i still think it's the best outcome.



While I believe some of Loghains actions could not be justified, he was a better man than Alistair.



@ Razorrx



How does Loghain betray Maric with Rowan, Maric cheated on his betrothed and Loghain gave up the woman he loved so Maric could have a queen. While I liked Katriel, she almost cost Ferelden it's freedom and a lot of good men died including Rowans father because of her.

[benmue]

How can people say logain who plotted to have nearly everyone killed and put into slavery a better man than alistair?

[GmanFresh]

my first play i killed him because i was playing the heroic noble but know im playing a evil dwarf so im saving him

Modifié par GmanFresh, 10 novembre 2009 - 06:11 .

[Andros_Hanarak]

benmue wrote...

How can people say logain who plotted to have nearly everyone killed and put into slavery a better man than alistair?

I found Alistair to be a likable character. In fact, I liked all the playable characters. But to me Loghain has to die and be beheaded for what he did in "defense" of his country. I can understand he might find Cailan childish. I think Cailan was a great ruler. He probably knew he had to act like a fool so that his troops had a high morale and what does Loghain do. "Oh lets get rid of the king and the Grey Wardens in one stroke." Sorry pal, your head will roll on all my origin runs LOL!

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Poubo wrote...
How does Loghain betray Maric with Rowan,

He has sex with Rowan... Rowan, Maric's fiancee.
Yeah, that's a betrayal, whether Maric was sleeping with Katriel at the same time or not.
Yeah, Maric betrayed Rowan, Rowan betrayed Maric, and Loghain betrayed Maric.

[RazorrX]

Poubo wrote...

@ Razorrx

How does Loghain betray Maric with Rowan, Maric cheated on his betrothed and Loghain gave up the woman he loved so Maric could have a queen. While I liked Katriel, she almost cost Ferelden it's freedom and a lot of good men died including Rowans father because of her.

She was in a legal arrangement to marry Maric when Loghain slept with her. 

He used her to plot against Katriel (Even She sees this at the end).  

He keeps her away from Maric when he does his big Katriel reveal in order to prevent her from telliing Maric everything, thus ensuring that he would get the outcome he wanted.

It does not matter that Maric was sleeping with Katriel, Rowan was welcome to sleep with whoever - just should not have been Loghain (Freinds do not do that).

[Poubo]

benmue wrote...

How can people say logain who plotted to have nearly everyone killed and put into slavery a better man than alistair?

because he helped free Feralden from occupation, he had lost many things in his own life that did make him do rash things, but he believed he was doing the best for his country.

Alistair went against a senior grey warden, he wanted the throne for personal vengeance. the death of Loghain served no-one and Loghain himself admitted he was wrong and that he wanted to make-up for it.

at the end of the day its down to perspective, I wanted Alistair and Anora to marry for the sake of the country and Loghain to live (being of noble origin I supported the crown but couldn't kill the hero who helped liberate my country).

[Poubo]

RazorrX wrote...

Poubo wrote...

@ Razorrx

How does Loghain betray Maric with Rowan, Maric cheated on his betrothed and Loghain gave up the woman he loved so Maric could have a queen. While I liked Katriel, she almost cost Ferelden it's freedom and a lot of good men died including Rowans father because of her.

She was in a legal arrangement to marry Maric when Loghain slept with her. 

He used her to plot against Katriel (Even She sees this at the end).  

He keeps her away from Maric when he does his big Katriel reveal in order to prevent her from telliing Maric everything, thus ensuring that he would get the outcome he wanted.

It does not matter that Maric was sleeping with Katriel, Rowan was welcome to sleep with whoever - just should not have been Loghain (Freinds do not do that).

Loghain may have been manipulative in some ways, yes, but who isnt. Katriel almost brought the rebellion to an end, she didnt care for Ferelden, only her wants and needs. she only turned on her masters to save Marics life and only did it after the main army was destroyed.

Maric didn't even love Rowan until after Katriels death. Where as Loghain did, are you saying that love isn't as important as friendship? Loghain always did what needed to be done and his hatred toward Orlais was not unfounded. They had occupied and slaughtered countless people of his country, including his own family...

*2nd book SPOILERS*

... they even tried to capture Maric again and help the darkspawn take over Thedas! 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

He helped liberate the kingdom of Ferelden in a completely separate war. That does not make him a good person. especially in this game. Regardless of his past "heroics" (he was still a self-righteous jackass back then too), he did despicable things in this game. Alistair had every right to demand Loghain's execution, and Loghain had no right to sell his own kingdom's people into slavery under the arrogant assumption it was best for said kingdom.



He's a self-serving tyrant, regardless of how much he tries to convince people he's serving Ferelden. He was serving himself to try and stop Orlais, the people who raped his mother. That's his driving factor for everything in both the books and the game. He deserves more deaths than can be granted.



Alistair's "going against a senior Warden" is a small point, especially given Alistair's emotional state at the time. That's Alistair's ONLY fault. Loghain has way more faults and way more crimes against him.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Poubo wrote...
*2nd book SPOILERS*

... they even tried to capture Maric again and help the darkspawn take over Thedas! 

You do realize that Loghain was completely guessing there, right? And he happened to be right, but he assaulted the Circle Tower on a hunch for the sole reason that the First Enchanter was Orlesian. He said himself that he didn't know Maric was there, only that he "knew" Orlais would try to betray him. He got lucky; that wasn't heroic, nor was it in any way right if you look at it from his point of view and not the omniscient view of the reader.

[Vilegrim]

benmue wrote...

How can people say logain who plotted to have nearly everyone killed and put into slavery a better man than alistair?

because he has the balls to do what needs to be done and not whine about it.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Vilegrim wrote...

because he has the balls to do what needs to be done and not whine about it.

He has the balls to do what he personally feels is right, regardless of who it affects and how it affects them. That's not an admirable trait. That's a tyrannical one. But, hey, I guess some people like tyrants. They're "edgier" and usually therefore "cooler" to some people.

[RazorrX]

He is a traitor.



There I said it.



The witch said it.



David Gaider said it.

David Gaider wrote...



It's interesting. "He will betray you, each time worse than the last." In my mind, the bigger crime for Loghain is that he kill *Rowan's* son -- but Loghain is definitely capable of that kind of blindness when it comes to doing what he thinks is best.

[MightySword]

edit: double post

Modifié par MightySword, 10 novembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[MightySword]

Before I say anything, I didn't read the book so all of my impression and opinion are from what I can see in the game.

To me, in the game Loghain is not a very good writen character. A common plot twist in many writing is that to orchastrated a misunderstanding about a certain character and pull a turn at the end to suprise the player. Either lead the player to believe that character a saint but turn out to be evil at the end, or misdirect the player to think such character a villian but turn out to be a hero. Now I'm not sure if that's the intend purpose of the writer with Loghain "in this game", but that's certainly how I see his character.

This kind of plot twist sometime sucess, sometime fail, and I think Loghain falls into the latter. Usually to success in this kind of twist there are needed of hidden, but rational motives that the player/reader can agree to. There are so much irrationality behind Loghain's action in the game that the final "I'm doing it for the best of Ferelden" just simply doesn't click for me. It feels like the writing tried too hard to make the player believe Loghain is a bad character that it crossed the threshold for the twist to be able to turn around and make him a believable good guy, for me at least. Of course, like I said this only applied if this is the intend role for Loghain character. I can be wrong

As for the Landmeet I weighted my decision a bit differently, and "completely base on the avatar's role playing respective", instead of base on what I think as a player (hardcore RP here). Since I gonna marry Arona and see that she still cares about her father, I spare him, that's the only thing affect my decision. I mean ... do you really want to execute your father in law, it feels like there will be some consequence later. And then there are still some who support Loghain, so imagine, the Queen married the guy who executed a war hero and become king ... somehow I think that just set the state for a civil war sometime later.

Alistair's action suprise me, but it really makes me realize what Arona said about him is right, Alistair is good at fighting the darkspawn and that's the only thing he's good at. As a human noble, I set out 2 goals: bring Farelden back to its feet and restore the Warden order. Arona simply proved she's better at realizing those then Alistair. So he can go a drink somewhere.

Modifié par MightySword, 10 novembre 2009 - 07:09 .

[Poubo]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

He helped liberate the kingdom of Ferelden in a completely separate war. That does not make him a good person. especially in this game. Regardless of his past "heroics" (he was still a self-righteous jackass back then too), he did despicable things in this game. Alistair had every right to demand Loghain's execution, and Loghain had no right to sell his own kingdom's people into slavery under the arrogant assumption it was best for said kingdom.

He's a self-serving tyrant, regardless of how much he tries to convince people he's serving Ferelden. He was serving himself to try and stop Orlais, the people who raped his mother. That's his driving factor for everything in both the books and the game. He deserves more deaths than can be granted.

Alistair's "going against a senior Warden" is a small point, especially given Alistair's emotional state at the time. That's Alistair's ONLY fault. Loghain has way more faults and way more crimes against him.

you cant just wipe away the past, it may have been a different war but its still a part of his character, his persona, it affected my judgement in an rp sense due to my nobility. EVERY HERO IS ANOTHER MANS VILLAIN! why do people not see this?

i dont want to get in to a politcal discussion on these forums by comparing real life scenarios in to it all, so keeping to the game AND ITS HISTORY. Loghain did more for his country than Alistair ever did. unfortunately i dont know why he sold slaves, i disagree with that completely, but i think that was more Arl Howe than anyone else.

He was paranoid yes, but who could blame him after everything he's been through? I try to think of it as this:

If I had gone through everything he had, would i be any different?

[Ace Attorney]

Just wondering, can you marry if you're NOT a human?



I'm a commoner Dwarven Rogue

[Reiella]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Just wondering, can you marry if you're NOT a human?

I'm a commoner Dwarven Rogue

Nope.  Can't marry as a Human Mage either, ya gotta be human noble.

I guess it can almost make up for how ridiculously short the human noble origin story was.

[KnightofPhoenix]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Just wondering, can you marry if you're NOT a human?

I'm a commoner Dwarven Rogue

That's a double negative lol. You are a dwarf and a commoner.

[Ace Attorney]

****, it would have been awesome for a commoner casteless Dwarf, "banished" from Dwarven society, to rise and rule a Human kingdom. That would have put a dent in the morale of the rest of the Dwarven race.



Anyway, what options does a Dwarven commoner have at Landsmeet?

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The slavery was 100% Loghain. He talks about it himself.

And, if you didn't notice, I didn't wipe away his past. I directly referenced it, in fact. He was once a hero. I know this. People respect him. I know this too. But just because he was once a hero, or once did heroic things, does not mean he deserves any mercy for his crimes in the actual game. The notion of granting him leniency because of his reputation is irresponsible. Even Anora knows Loghain must answer for his crimes.

Was his paranoia justified? That's a personal judgment call. I say no, since Orlais had nothing to do with the Blight and nothing to do with the current civil war that Loghain himself caused out of his fear. What he did was at best completely irresponsible and misguided, and at worst regicide and tyranny.

As a man, Loghain has done nothing but what he thought was right. He didn't care about anyone else, regardless of how many times he tried to say he did it all for Ferelden. He did it all for himself, to shape Ferelden to what he wanted. His actions in the book were cowardly and selfish. He wanted nothing to do with the official rebellion until his father died and it became personal. He tried to run away in the middle of that rebellion just so he could go and bury his father. That's selfish. Yeah, Maric convinced him to stay, but his intentions were clear. Then he slept with Maric's fiancee, forced Maric to kill the woman he loved through sheer fear-mongering over his own personal hatred for Orlais, and tried to rule through the king on pretty much every occasion while ignoring his wife and daughter.

I blame him for his own actions, whether the rape and murder of his mother was a justifiable catalyst or not. Just because you can understand why he's paranoid doesn't mean what he did is in any way right.

I don't see why Alistair even comes into play here. Duncan was very important to Alistair, and Loghain killed him. Being a Grey Warden was Alistair's saving grace and made his life better, and Loghain tried to kill all the Grey Wardens. Loghain sold his own kingdom's citizens into slavery, he tried to poison the nobility of his own kingdom including the brother of his once-beloved Rowan, and he essentially committed regicide. You ask if I can blame Loghain for his paranoia after all he's been through, but can you blame Alistair wanting Loghain to pay for his crimes after all Alistair's been through?

Alistair is by far the better man. He has no crimes against him, even if you think his outburst at the Landsmeet was wrong. Loghain has all kinds of crimes and wrongs under his belt, and they can't be ignored simply because he led the charge at the River Dane.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 10 novembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[owl208]

The problem with Loghain is the classic hero tragedy.



It's where a revered hero falls.

If a hero commits a heinous crime, should it go unpunished?

Is death warranted if the crime is severe enough?

If the crime is heinous, is redemption possible?



Sometimes it is a far great punishment to live with the knowledge of your crime than it is to die because of it, but that's coming from someone who is still living....



What an awesome game this is to make us actually think and ponder!!!!

[RazorrX]

*applauds* I agree Mystranna.

[Poubo]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

The slavery was 100% Loghain. He talks about it himself.

And, if you didn't notice, I didn't wipe away his past. I directly referenced it, in fact. He was once a hero. I know this. People respect him. I know this too. But just because he was once a hero, or once did heroic things, does not mean he deserves any mercy for his crimes in the actual game. The notion of granting him leniency because of his reputation is irresponsible. Even Anora knows Loghain must answer for his crimes.

Was his paranoia justified? That's a personal judgment call. I say no, since Orlais had nothing to do with the Blight and nothing to do with the current civil war that Loghain himself caused out of his fear. What he did was at best completely irresponsible and misguided, and at worst regicide and tyranny.

As a man, Loghain has done nothing but what he thought was right. He didn't care about anyone else, regardless of how many times he tried to say he did it all for Ferelden. He did it all for himself, to shape Ferelden to what he wanted. His actions in the book were cowardly and selfish. He wanted nothing to do with the official rebellion until his father died and it became personal. He tried to run away in the middle of that rebellion just so he could go and bury his father. That's selfish. Yeah, Maric convinced him to stay, but his intentions were clear. Then he slept with Maric's fiancee, forced Maric to kill the woman he loved through sheer fear-mongering over his own personal hatred for Orlais, and tried to rule through the king on pretty much every occasion while ignoring his wife and daughter.

I blame him for his own actions, whether the rape and murder of his mother was a justifiable catalyst or not. Just because you can understand why he's paranoid doesn't mean what he did is in any way right.

I don't see why Alistair even comes into play here. Duncan was very important to Alistair, and Loghain killed him. Being a Grey Warden was Alistair's saving grace and made his life better, and Loghain tried to kill all the Grey Wardens. Loghain sold his own kingdom's citizens into slavery, he tried to poison the nobility of his own kingdom including the brother of his once-beloved Rowan, and he essentially committed regicide. You ask if I can blame Loghain for his paranoia after all he's been through, but can you blame Alistair wanting Loghain to pay for his crimes after all Alistair's been through?

Alistair is by far the better man. He has no crimes against him, even if you think his outburst at the Landsmeet was wrong. Loghain has all kinds of crimes and wrongs under his belt, and they can't be ignored simply because he led the charge at the River Dane.

ill answer bit by bit, first off, slavery was wrong, i don't know why he did this, i never found an explanation either, considering most of his personal troops during the war were elves (if i remember right).

leniency? quoting Alistair "Joining the grey wardens should be an honour". yet throughout the calling they all hated being grey wardens, and even Duncan himself was a murderer who was able to survive the joining, he earned his redemption why cant anyone else? He had been recruited as punishment!

i didn't say Loghain shouldnt pay for his crimes, but he had 50% chance of living through the joining, if Alistair had gone through with that and then listened to the othe Warden, Loghain would still die, at least let him die with a little dignity. Just because someone does 1 thing good doesnt make them a good person, just because someone does a few things bad / evil, doesnt make them a horrific tyrant.

he slept with Marics Fiancee when Maric was sleeping with Katriel, at that point it doesnt matter, Maric wasn't planning on marrying Maric at that point anyway! If anything Maric was the bad person, putting himself infront of everyone else. if it wasn't for Loghain, Maric wouldn't have been able to become king!

by comparing crimes, it's like comparing a child to a fully grown adult, Loghain is like 50? where as Alistair is maybe 20 something? A lot can happen in that space of time. Alistair was only doing what was best for himself, hence why he would walk away from the grey wardens and the blight if loghain lived. even if it was temporarily.

Who knows how deep Orlais were in this mess, i mean they bargained with the Darkspawn once before, why not again?