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[Gimmemocha]

Soooo... Alistair's whiny and immature, vs. Loghain who killed his king, murdered Gray Wardens, got hundreds of soldiers killed, sold people into slavery, hired assassins to kill you...



Yeah, tough choice there.

[Bagsabbis]

Gimmemocha wrote...

Soooo... Alistair's whiny and immature, vs. Loghain who killed his king, murdered Gray Wardens, got hundreds of soldiers killed, sold people into slavery, hired assassins to kill you...

Yeah, tough choice there.

It's not a popularity contest though.  It's about who would you rather send to kill an Arch-demon.  Someone who is going to tell it jokes and cry on its shoulder; or someone who will do whatever it takes to kill it (even if that means sacrificing baby kittens!)?

[syllogi]

Bagsabbis wrote...
It's not a popularity contest though.  It's about who would you rather send to kill an Arch-demon.  Someone who is going to tell it jokes and cry on its shoulder; or someone who will do whatever it takes to kill it (even if that means sacrificing baby kittens!)?

But...Loghain has done everything possible up to the point that you defeat him in the duel in order to prevent YOU from doing your duty as a Grey Warden to stop the Blight.  There is NO indication, up to that point, that Loghain would suddenly be willing to do whatever it takes to stop the Blight.  All he wants is vengeance on Orlais, and he has commited atrocities, treason, and put Ferelden in grave danger to do so. 

I'd rather have the normal, slightly whiny guy, who collects action figures and wants Wynne to mend his shirts, who sees the duty of a Grey Warden as an honor and a privilege, on my side in the final battle, than the psychotic, treasonous, single mindedly murderous, unrepentant slaver, who only is joining me because he was defeated, and would have killed ALL Grey Wardens if he had not been, next to me.

Guess I'm just not "hardcore" like Loghain fans, right???

[Layn]

heck i'd imagine Loghain would be crazy enough to think he could tame the archdemon and use it against orlais.

[Nosuchluck]

To be fair Loghan is just a poorly written character. They pretty much tried to make him everything, the crazy evil guy, the leader trying to do everything for his people and a war hero. The problem is he comes across as just the Crazy evil guy more than the other two. The game just doesn't take time to explain his decisions or justify them, half the stuff he does just doesn't seem to make that much sense, especially when half the time he doesn't even seem to care about the Blight.

[Layn]

Nosuchluck wrote...

To be fair Loghan is just a poorly written character. They pretty much tried to make him everything, the crazy evil guy, the leader trying to do everything for his people and a war hero. The problem is he comes across as just the Crazy evil guy more than the other two. The game just doesn't take time to explain his decisions or justify them, half the stuff he does just doesn't seem to make that much sense, especially when half the time he doesn't even seem to care about the Blight.

what blight? there is no blight! darkspawn walking around ferelden? BAH! HUMBUG! FEAR ORLAIS!!!

[Nosuchluck]

I even supported Loghan being a grey warden thinking I would get some really cool dialogue explaining why exactly he did what he did. Sadly, all I really got was "I did it because I had to." That explanation just doesn't cut it, sorry bud.

[apantoliani]

Bagsabbis wrote...

Gimmemocha wrote...

Soooo... Alistair's whiny and immature, vs. Loghain who killed his king, murdered Gray Wardens, got hundreds of soldiers killed, sold people into slavery, hired assassins to kill you...

Yeah, tough choice there.

It's not a popularity contest though.  It's about who would you rather send to kill an Arch-demon.  Someone who is going to tell it jokes and cry on its shoulder; or someone who will do whatever it takes to kill it (even if that means sacrificing baby kittens!)?

Alistair spends most of the game stuffing his shield rather violently into the faces of various critters, I'm fairly certain he'll stuff it into the Archdemon's face. Maybe even if a kitten is sitting on it's head. Another way to look at it, is Loghain fought men, the Orlesian empire. The grey wardens fight demented figments that are shaped after men that come from the stuff of nightmares. I didn't see him facing down Hespith or a Broodmother.

Loghain might crap his pants. Unlikely, but wouldn't have surprised me. I'm not saying one or the other would be good in combat, my point is just that when it comes to the actual fighting, both would get it done making it a silly argument point. 

[TheRealIncarnal]

No, Loghain would make a great Warden at this time because he's going to do everything he can to stop the Blight before Orlais becomes involved. That's clearly a powerful motivation for him.

[Bagsabbis]

TeenZombie wrote...

But...Loghain has done everything possible up to the point that you defeat him in the duel in order to prevent YOU from doing your duty as a Grey Warden to stop the Blight.  There is NO indication, up to that point, that Loghain would suddenly be willing to do whatever it takes to stop the Blight.  All he wants is vengeance on Orlais, and he has commited atrocities, treason, and put Ferelden in grave danger to do so. 

I'd rather have the normal, slightly whiny guy, who collects action figures and wants Wynne to mend his shirts, who sees the duty of a Grey Warden as an honor and a privilege, on my side in the final battle, than the psychotic, treasonous, single mindedly murderous, unrepentant slaver, who only is joining me because he was defeated, and would have killed ALL Grey Wardens if he had not been, next to me.

Guess I'm just not "hardcore" like Loghain fans, right???

That's where my reading of the situation differs from yours.  I don't think that Loghain has done everything he can to block you.  Howe though has.  It was he who brought in the Antivan Crows.  I think it is he that organised the poisoning of Arl Eamon though (that's just my opinion though).  For me, Loghain has been more intent on trying to bring the Bannorn into line, and formulating a strategy on how to defeat an unfocused army of Darkspawn whilst maintaining a sufficient show of strength towards the Orlesians.

Loghain doesn't actually believe it is a blight.  He also believes that the Grey Wardens were previously instrumental in plotting against Feralden, which lead to the Orlesians invading.  He still feels they are a cover for the Orlesians and are trying to con everyone into weakening Feralden's borders to allow the Orlesians to take advantage.  He starts to realise his error later on, but by then it's too late.

Don't get me wrong, I am not exonerating him or anything.  If he did not truly know what Howe was up to, then it is only because he chose to turn a blind eye to it.  But just because fell so far in pursuit of his goals doesn't mean that he is any less passionate about protecting his country from the Arch-demon once it becomes clear to him that that is what they truly face.

I also don't get the argument that Alistair is just upholding the honour and privilege of being a Grey Warden.  These are not some sort of saints that ride around rescuing fair maidens and doing heroic deeds of good.  If they were, then they wouldn't need the rite of conscription!  After all, there are plenty of vain-glorious knights who would see it as an honour to join their ranks.  However, leaders like Duncan know that they in fact need those who have the resolve to put the defeat of the Darkspawn above their own personal honour.  The Grey Wardens task themselves with defeating blights at ANY cost.  

I'm not sure what it is that makes my opinions (or any other so-called Loghain supporter) more "hardcore" than others.  Truth be told I would prefer to take both Loghain and Alistair to increase the chances of success.  It is in fact Alistair that forces the issue, by throwing down the 'it's him or me' ultimatum.  Which begs the question: just how honourable is someone who is prepared to turn his back on fighting to save the world over a matter of principle?  Or is his pride more important than being a Grey Warden and defeating the blight?

Only your character can answer that - and that to me is one of the joys of role-playing games 

[Bagsabbis]

apantoliani wrote...

<snip>I'm not saying one or the other would be good in combat, my point is just that when it comes to the actual fighting, both would get it done making it a silly argument point. 

Yet one is a proven leader and battlefield commander.  A brilliant strategist.  A  military genius. 

The other has spent his life running away from responsibility.  So wracked with indecision he defers to you as being a more viable leader.  Combat ability is not the only determining factor here.

[syllogi]

Bagsabbis wrote...
That's where my reading of the situation differs from yours.  I don't think that Loghain has done everything he can to block you.  Howe though has.  It was he who brought in the Antivan Crows.  I think it is he that organised the poisoning of Arl Eamon though (that's just my opinion though).  For me, Loghain has been more intent on trying to bring the Bannorn into line, and formulating a strategy on how to defeat an unfocused army of Darkspawn whilst maintaining a sufficient show of strength towards the Orlesians.

Howe could not have brought in the Antivan Crows without Loghain's support.  Howe did NOT organize the poisoning of Arl Eamon, Jowan clearly says that Loghain was the man he talked to, and he recognizes him from a portrait.  I did not see him formulating any plans, other than the ones relating to killing all Grey Wardens, killing his king, and killing half the army.  I didn't see him express legitimate concern over the darkspawn at any point.

Bagsabbis wrote...
Loghain doesn't actually believe it is a blight.  He also believes that the Grey Wardens were previously instrumental in plotting against Feralden, which lead to the Orlesians invading.  He still feels they are a cover for the Orlesians and are trying to con everyone into weakening Feralden's borders to allow the Orlesians to take advantage.  He starts to realise his error later on, but by then it's too late.

When does he recognize his error?  Please point out any scene in the game BEFORE dueling him where he shows any recognition of the threat of the Blight.  I did not see anything leading to this conclusion.

Bagsabbis wrote...
Don't get me wrong, I am not exonerating him or anything.  If he did not truly know what Howe was up to, then it is only because he chose to turn a blind eye to it.  But just because fell so far in pursuit of his goals doesn't mean that he is any less passionate about protecting his country from the Arch-demon once it becomes clear to him that that is what they truly face.

When does the game show him realizing that the Archdemon is a problem?  The fact is, he is never shown having this realization.  He may have it after the fact, but at the Landsmeet and beforehand, there is NO cognizance.  The guy is just ker-azzzy.

Bagsabbis wrote...
I also don't get the argument that Alistair is just upholding the honour and privilege of being a Grey Warden.  These are not some sort of saints that ride around rescuing fair maidens and doing heroic deeds of good.  If they were, then they wouldn't need the rite of conscription!  After all, there are plenty of vain-glorious knights who would see it as an honour to join their ranks.  However, leaders like Duncan know that they in fact need those who have the resolve to put the defeat of the Darkspawn above their own personal honour.  The Grey Wardens task themselves with defeating blights at ANY cost.

So because the Grey Wardens have the Right of Conscription, they should have no honor, and bring unrepentant traitors and slavers into the fold?  And why is Loghain so important to ending the Blight?  He's not.  He is another mustache-twirling villain to take down, before the Landsmeet.  There is NO reason given by the game to think that this is a good idea.

Bagsabbis wrote...
I'm not sure what it is that makes my opinions (or any other so-called Loghain supporter) more "hardcore" than others.  Truth be told I would prefer to take both Loghain and Alistair to increase the chances of success.  It is in fact Alistair that forces the issue, by throwing down the 'it's him or me' ultimatum.  Which begs the question: just how honourable is someone who is prepared to turn his back on fighting to save the world over a matter of principle?  Or is his pride more important than being a Grey Warden and defeating the blight?

I would have preferred to have the option to have both also, or just put Loghain in jail until the Blight is dealt with.  But that wasn't an option, so the next best option, the most moral, logical, and sensible option, based on the information given to my character before the Landsmeet, is to kill him and get it over with.  I understand why people are upset that Alistair creates the ultimatum, but it is reasonable and expected, if you know his character.  It's not pride, it's everything he stands for.  Yes, he is idealistic, but again, I would prefer to stand with the idealistic young guy than the psycho bent on destruction of everything I stand for.  That's the basic choice you are given at the Landsmeet.

It would have been great if we could have a "time out" at that point, to ask Riordan what brand of crack he's smoking to suggest such a thing, and then maybe Alistair and my character would have a reason to consider sparing Loghain.  Or showing Loghain having a change of heart before the duel -- that would have been compelling and would have garnered some sympathy.  But based on everything we know about Loghain at that point, there is no reason to think that he would have this sudden change of heart, or that he would be such a great help to our cause that it would be worth risking another civil war (at best!) or sabotage of our plans by bringing along Loghain.

Bagsabbis wrote...
Only your character can answer that - and that to me is one of the joys of role-playing games 

True, but I do wish that the choice was harder to make...from my point of view, I cannot see any good reason to take Loghain over Alistair.

[Layn]

Bagsabbis wrote...

Yet one is a proven leader and battlefield commander.  A brilliant strategist.  A  military genius. 

The other has spent his life running away from responsibility.  So wracked with indecision he defers to you as being a more viable leader.  Combat ability is not the only determining factor here.

one is the awesome vampire Kain

the other is funny and my characters love interest

it was so hard to choose

[Behindyounow]

I chose Loghain, and had Alistair executed. The last thing I need is an heir to the throne coming to replace me.

That, and becoming a Grey warden seems like a fitting punishment to me.

Modifié par Behindyounow, 04 décembre 2009 - 09:04 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Whatever one's opinion of Loghain's crimes or actions, Alistair demanding that he be killed no matter what, even when Riordan says that there are compelling reasons to have as many Grey Wardens as possible available to fight the Archdemon is damning, and shows he is putting his personal vengeance and sense of justice above the Grey Warden philosophy of defeating the Blight at all costs. Worse, if you choose to let Loghain live, Alistair actually abandons you and the fight, essentially saying 'screw the nation and everyone in it, if I can't get my revenge you can live or die without my help.'

Loghain, on the other hand, would make an excellent Grey Warden. In the course of the game, the only person more dedicated to victory, no matter the cost, is Branka. That is what Grey Wardens do, and Alistair has failed to learn the lesson Duncan taught from the very beginning: "Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary to end the Blight."

[DMTyrisis]

I still can't really reconcile Loghain in the game and Loghain in the book. I've only read the first book, I dunno if he's in the second at all, but there seemed to be a huge disconnect in personality between them.

I agree totally on this.  Loghain in the first book is torn between following his father's orders and and his personal hatreds.  By the end of the book, Loghain has matters of the heart to hate Maric over also, but by then he was torn by duty.  It made for a very interesting character.

In the game, I kept waiting to find out how Loghain fell so far from grace.  I never really found out though.  They just kind of skipped right over it.  Even if he hated Cailen, his call to duty that is described in the books would not have allowed him to turn his back on the battle in Ostagar.

I think they missed out big on Loghain.  In my second play through, I am going to save him.  Maybe I will get more info then.

[gadlaw]

Gimmemocha wrote...

Soooo... Alistair's whiny and immature, vs. Loghain who killed his king, murdered Gray Wardens, got hundreds of soldiers killed, sold people into slavery, hired assassins to kill you...

Yeah, tough choice there.

Exactly my thoughts. And as for Alistair being whiny and immature - dude was right there fighting with my character the whole way. Let's see, guy that had my back or crazy guy who killed, enslaved and  betrayed everyone he ever had contact with.  Seems clear cut to me.

[gadlaw]

Gimmemocha wrote...

Soooo... Alistair's whiny and immature, vs. Loghain who killed his king, murdered Gray Wardens, got hundreds of soldiers killed, sold people into slavery, hired assassins to kill you...

Yeah, tough choice there.

Exactly my thoughts. And as for Alistair being whiny and immature - dude was right there fighting with my character the whole way. Let's see, guy that had my back or crazy guy who killed, enslaved and  betrayed everyone he ever had contact with.  Seems clear cut to me.

[Korva]

I didn't find the choice hard. Alistair is a friend, almost like a little brother. Loghain committed Maker knows how many atrocities or let his arsekissers commit them. Justice is way overdue for him, past hero or no. I did feel a twinge of pity when he went from "screeching bastard" to "dignified acceptance" and bid Anora farewell, though. The choice of who gets the throne was a bit harder, but I just don't trust Anora. Maybe I'll talk her and Alistair into marriage in a future game and see how it works out for them and Ferelden.

[Galad22]

Alistair is loyal friend and good and kind man if little whiny.

Loghain on the other hand is monster who killed his king half of the Fereldan army and all grey wardens on ferelden, moron also sold elves to slavery to finance his self started civil war against bannorn just because they didn't agree with him. Not to mention he tortured his opponents, and poisoned Eamon and got rid of Couslands.

Seriously man has done so much bad for fereldan at that point he is far more than traitor, as some poetess said Traitor is the word but it is not strong enough. Some say he is tactical genius, well what sort of tactical genius starts a civil war when real enemy is attacking and pillaging south of the country. He might have freed Ferelden, but thanks to him ferelden is almost no more at the end of the game.

I will never ever let that moron live unless I happen to play completely corrupt evil warden who don't particularly care about anything.

So no it is not an hard decision.

[Layn]

Galad22 wrote...

Alistair is loyal friend and good and kind man if little whiny.

Loghain on the other hand is monster who killed his king half of the Fereldan army and all grey wardens on ferelden, moron also sold elves to slavery to finance his self started civil war against bannorn just because they didn't agree with him. Not to mention he tortured his opponents, and poisoned Eamon and got rid of Couslands.

the choice was do we kill loghain or not? the warden could not know that alistair would storm out. Yes Loghain is a traitor and has the blood of many on his hands, but fact is he is more useful fighting the darkspawn and dying by their hands than dying there by our hands. My warden only let alistair execute loghain because I knew that alistair would run away otherwise

Galad22 wrote...
Seriously man has done so much bad for fereldan at that point he is far more than traitor, as some poetess said Traitor is the word but it is not strong enough. Some say he is tactical genius, well what sort of tactical genius starts a civil war when real enemy is attacking and pillaging south of the country. He might have freed Ferelden, but thanks to him ferelden is almost no more at the end of the game.

he didn't believe it to be a blight. he was still fighting his war against orlais. and a couple of unoirganized darkspawn weren't the bigger enemy for him. He tried to convince Cailan and Duncan of how stupid their plan was and couldn't, so he decided to play along and then save the men he could command from dying in a less important battle. In the end he saw the blight growing and tried to get all the leaders of ferelden to get to defeat the darkspawn without resorting to help from their biggest enemy. Then the warden and his/her band of "traitors" came along, challenged his rule, dividing once again the people of ferelden and risking again civil war, and killed him.
not defending Loghain, just trying to think what Loghain was thinking. He IS a tactical genius. He just didn't realize the true size of the darkspawn threat and doesn't like it when people don't play along with his plan

[Galad22]

Crrash wrote...

He tried to convince Cailan and Duncan of how stupid their plan was and couldn't, so he decided to play along and then save the men he could command from dying in a less important battle. In the end he saw the blight growing and tried to get all the leaders of ferelden to get to defeat the darkspawn without resorting to help from their biggest enemy. Then the warden and his/her band of "traitors" came along, challenged his rule, dividing once again the people of ferelden and risking again civil war, and killed him.
not defending Loghain, just trying to think what Loghain was thinking. He IS a tactical genius. He just didn't realize the true size of the darkspawn threat and doesn't like it when people don't play along with his plan

You are aware that Ostagar was Loghains own plan, yes? It was not Cailan's and Duncans plan.

And Cailan suggested that they wait Orlais troops, which Loghain himself shot down. This doesn't actually make that much sense because they were the ones being attacked, so how can they wait for reinforcements, but anyway Loghain refused this.

And warden and his/her band of traitors are not first to challenge his rule, whole bannorn demanded that he steps down from the regency, we also have option to ask him to stand with us when we go to ferelden with Eamon and he refuses us.

In my opinion tactical geniuses would try to unite country in these sort of situation not make whole country hate them. If you ask to listen any rumors in game you hear that there are revolts all over and Loghain murders Banns because they don't do as he says.

[Layn]

Galad22 wrote...

You are aware that Ostagar was Loghains own plan, yes? It was not Cailan's and Duncans plan.

But loghain wasn't interested at fighting at Ostagar, even if he planned it. Duncan said they had to send the army there, Cailan got all "oooh grey wardens" and agreed to it and Loghain had to follow.

Galad22 wrote...
And warden and his/her band of traitors are not first to challenge his rule, whole bannorn demanded that he steps down from the regency, we also have option to ask him to stand with us when we go to ferelden with Eamon and he refuses us.

In my opinion tactical geniuses would try to unite country in these sort of situation not make whole country hate them. If you ask to listen any rumors in game you hear that there are revolts all over and Loghain murders Banns because they don't do as he says.

of course not, but he was trying to get the country under
his rule, so he can fight what he wants the way he wants. since he
couldn't convince them Arl Howe suggested to loghain to kill them.
of course he refuses to follow the warden and eamon. He wants to command the army, since he thinks everyone else is incapable of good tactical decisions

[johnbgardner]

Let's look at several events in my game as a dwarven noble:
1. Loghain's expression at seeing the beacon lit at Ostagar made me think he was surprised.  Seemed to me he didn't expect the beacon would have been lit.  After all, it was his men that were manning the tower and he opposed the suggestion that Grey Wardens be sent to ensure the beacon got lit.  It wasn't until the beacon was actually lit that he actually ordered his men to retreat.  I think he needed the excuse that the signal was never sent so he could be held blameless in the defeat at Ostagar.  Whether he ordered his men to not light the beacon or he knew darkspawn had a way into the tower is uncertain, but I'm pretty sure he didn't expect the beacon to be lit.
2. At Lothering, it becomes clear he has ordered the extermination of all Grey Wardens, as he left soldiers there to deal with any of them that survived Ostagar.  Subsequent encounters and conversations confirm this.
3.  Loghain hires an apostate to poison Arl Eamon, a very popular noble in command of a decent size army of knights and soldiers.  We don't know at that time if Arl Eamon actively opposed Loghain but Bann Teagan expressed his doubts about Loghain's version of events at Ostagar.  Dealing with an apostate, however, seems to me that Loghain has no intention of cultivating the support of the Circle of Magi.
4.  At the gates of Orzammar, Loghain's messenger is arrogant and disrespectful to the dwarven guard.  The messenger comes across as uncaring of the dwarven situation, just demanding warriors to support Loghain.
An ambassador such as this is not conducive to acquiring willing support from the dwarves, probably alienating the dwarves instead.
5.  Loghain is shown to have sold elves into slavery in Tevinter.  I would say that would be unlikely to garner support from any elves in Ferelden.
6.  Loghain, through Howe, kidnapped and tortured other various nobles and their kin in Denerim.
7.  Loghain set a trap for any Grey Warden supporters in Denerim.

So, let's see....
Of the four groups of peoples present in Ferelden, nobles, magi, dwarves, and elves, he has sabotaged and/or alienated...ALL of them.  Whereas my character managed to recruit all of them to his cause.
   In the Landsmeet I had to duel Loghain and his comment at the time was that the duel was to determine which of us was to lead the armies against the darkspawn.  Reputed tactical and strategic genius or not, Loghain, in my humble opinion, did everything WRONG in preparing Ferelden for the battle with the darkspawn, doing everything possible to weaken Ferelden in its hour of need, whereas my character united all of the various factions and was held in high regard by all of them.  Which one of us should lead the armies?  Hmmmm....
   As to who should be king/queen...until the Archdemon is defeated it is immaterial.  If there are only darksapwn left who cares who holds the throne?  My character really couldn't care less who became the king or queen afterwards, my main goal was to defeat the Archdemon and to that end I could see only one choice as to who would lead the armies against it.  Loghain or myself...the answer was crystal clear to me.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sparing Loghain was never an option for me. He is a perfect example of the "dangerous patriot"who still lives with the spectre of past monsters in the present, and ends up destroying the very country he supposedly loves to. And remember, he didn't just betray the Cailian and the Grey Wardens. His betrayal ended up in the full scale slaughter of half of Ferelden's forces. Men and women who would be the very ones fighting this Orelsian boggey-man if it ever came around. Which is even worse, because it is these soldiers, who trusted him as a revered war hero and man of honor, and he basically left them to become lunch for the darkspawn because of his own petty paranoia.



Not to mention he gave his blessings to the Tevinter Imperium, a foriegn power that was far more wicked than Orlais, free reign in his kingdom to murder and enslave people to fund his twisted brand of "patriotism".



So, I must politely disagree, that Alistair is acting irrationally when you decide to let the sad bastard live and join the wardens. Though for Alistair, it's more personal, I would think it even more irrational if he just shrugged it off. Loghain can have redemption on the end of the blade.



Remember, Hitler was a war hero too, and considered a "patriot".