171 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalcalan]

night0205 wrote...

So... I find it funny that people are calling Hawke a coward from escaping Lothering before it was destroyed... But... Isn't that exactly what Warden did in Origins? Warden and his group left Lothering to find help against the Blight, because they couldn't fight the blight without that help. They knew that the blight was coming to Lothering, that was just obvious. They knew Lothering was going to be destroyed. And instead of staying, Warden left in order to find help and also not to get killed. So why is everyone so hard on Hawke?

I think people just like to be negative. Especially when they have no idea what happened, yet... 

I think you may be missing a point:

"However, rather than stay and fight the darkspawn menace, Hawke flees
Ferelden and heads north."

They stated this quite clearly. It is doubtful that Hawke would have been a child at the time if fighting was considered to be a possibility.

People criticise Hawke for being a coward, not because he fled Lothering but because he fled Ferelden... Look at it this way, Hawke could have enlisted with Denerim or Redcliffe forces and taken part in the fight to defend his/her homeland but Hawke didn't.

So it means that Hawke valued his/her safety more than duty towards Ferelden. That paints an interesting picture. Of course if Hawke fails to take part in the defense of Ferelden it make him/her a more interesting character because it is a flaw in the classic heroic type.

Hence, the game may allow some focus on Hawke's "failure" to stick around and fight for his country. That character is not a born hero but has the potential to become one. His "cowardice" can be seen as adding to Hawke's personality actually as it makes the protagonist a believable character. What some posters call a "sensible" decision is certainly not a grand heroic gesture and that is an interesting way to get started...

The way I see it (given what we know at the moment which I reckon isn't much) either Hawke can live up to this start and become some sort of Machiavellian character (rising to power no matter what the price is) or become a true hero who tries his/her best to make up for abandoning his homeland to the Blight and yearns to atone this past failure.

In any case that can only bring more depth to the character. I for one don't mind playing a coward, as I find such characters much more interesting than knights in shiny armours.

[Gill Kaiser]

Why would you fight if you have no home or family to protect? If you have the means to escape a Blight, why wouldn't you take it?

[Kalcalan]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Why would you fight if you have no home or family to protect? If you have the means to escape a Blight, why wouldn't you take it?

Do we know for a fact that there are no Hawke relatives in Ferelden?

In war time would you run away to a neutral country, enlist in the army or join the resistance/freedom fighters?

If you do run away it means that you don't care about the fate of your homeland (especially if you are able and trained in warfare). If that doesn't make Hawke a coward that certainly makes Hawke a very pragmatic fellow (i.e. clearly not an idealist and that is what most heroic types are in general).

I'm warming up to the idea of playing a character who doesn't care about king and country and just looks out for himself. That should prove interesting...

[Dick Delaware]

AlexXIV wrote...

Might be he has own, story-related, reasons to leave Ferelden, just like the Warden left Lothering. Someone who didn't know what the Warden and company were up to could have called them cowards for leaving as well. I just hope Bioware thought about it enough to make this part of the story not look cowardly. I'd hate to stop playing and deleting the game after 10 minute playtime.

So what if he was a "coward"? That's an interesting angle too. Man, it beats the hell out of the generic toughguys we see all the time. Hawke was from Lothering, sees the tension in the air and he knows Lothering is screwed and nobody is going to help. So like many people in Lothering did (or tried to) he leaves and becomes a refugee for a couple of years with nothing to his name and living in terrible hardship, until finally managing to make some success and money for himself. But the past is still in his head and it's not going away.

If it's something like this, then that's pretty damn cool. It's a really realistic way of dealing with things and it describes what life is often like for REAL refugees who come to America. Their homeland is at war, their friends and family are dying, then they head off somewhere else barely managing to scrounge together a living. That's some heavy sh*t right there.

You call a guy like that cowardly, and that's absurd. You might as well call that cab driver who escaped being hacked to death with machetes in Rwanda or a girl who didn't want to get raped by Serb militias cowards too. 

However, like I said, details are still a little murky, so it still might suck. But if it's a more intimate, personal angle that the few details so far have been hinting at, it might be something special.

[SpiderFan1217]

Sersly? People are calling him a coward? If I had a dollar for every videogame where the main character ran away from (or executed a tactical retreat from) the villian I'd be rich. It's not cowardice to run from the Blight. It's common sense. Also, why all the Hawke hate. It's an ammusing surname.

[Felfenix]

Apparently any man or woman who doesn't enlist in a nation's military during war, are dishonorable cowards. All those refugees of wars around the world IRL? People on these forums think they're disgusting cowards, apparently, with no conceivable justification other than cowardice. I thought you complainers were supposed to be imaginative and able to roleplay different characters and choices.

[Dick Delaware]

Felfenix, this is what we call "armchair quarterbacking".

[Kalcalan]

Dick Delaware wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Might be he has own, story-related, reasons to leave Ferelden, just like the Warden left Lothering. Someone who didn't know what the Warden and company were up to could have called them cowards for leaving as well. I just hope Bioware thought about it enough to make this part of the story not look cowardly. I'd hate to stop playing and deleting the game after 10 minute playtime.

So what if he was a "coward"? That's an interesting angle too. Man, it beats the hell out of the generic toughguys we see all the time. Hawke was from Lothering, sees the tension in the air and he knows Lothering is screwed and nobody is going to help. So like many people in Lothering did (or tried to) he leaves and becomes a refugee for a couple of years with nothing to his name and living in terrible hardship, until finally managing to make some success and money for himself. But the past is still in his head and it's not going away.

If it's something like this, then that's pretty damn cool. It's a really realistic way of dealing with things and it describes what life is often like for REAL refugees who come to America. Their homeland is at war, their friends and family are dying, then they head off somewhere else barely managing to scrounge together a living. That's some heavy sh*t right there.

You call a guy like that cowardly, and that's absurd. You might as well call that cab driver who escaped being hacked to death with machetes in Rwanda or a girl who didn't want to get raped by Serb militias cowards too. 

However, like I said, details are still a little murky, so it still might suck. But if it's a more intimate, personal angle that the few details so far have been hinting at, it might be something special.

I wouldn't go as far as listing Hawke among victims. Don't forget that Hawke is a Warrior, a Mage or a Rogue and not some random helpless guy. It would be hard to believe that a guy who is well trained in combat (I guess it's safe to assume that Hawke will receive some sort of martial training at one point or another) would be so helpless.

The only explanation that would justify his fleeing Ferelden would be for Hawke to be totally untrained and inexperienced at that point and thus unable to take part in the defense of Ferelden. But even then, many who stood at Redcliffe or Denerim were not trained fighters and they still gave their lives to defend their homes.

Moving from being a helpless victim to becoming a Champion and the "most important character in Thedas" is hardly believable but the story arc can be epic.

Just like in the City Elf Origin in DAO, in which you start as a lowly Elf in an Alienage and become first a Grey Warden and later the saviour of Ferelden.

[Kalcalan]

Felfenix wrote...

Apparently any man or woman who doesn't enlist in a nation's military during war, are dishonorable cowards. All those refugees of wars around the world IRL? People on these forums think they're disgusting cowards, apparently, with no conceivable justification other than cowardice. I thought you complainers were supposed to be imaginative and able to roleplay different characters and choices.

What about a guy trained as a military man deserting the army in time of war?

A Warrior is not a random refugee. If Hawke actually trained as a Warrior before Lothering then he is at the very least a deserter.

[Kalcalan]

Maiq the Liar wrote...

Last stands are "a lack of imagination or the last refuge of an incompetent commander."

M'aiq thinks that running is a perfectly acceptable option when facing a Darkspawn horde.

Running away from Lothering is a sensible decision, running away from Ferelden is evading one's responsibilities or duty towards Ferelden.

Remember what Alistair says about running away?

Of course Hawke may well have considered that he/she didn't owe anything to Ferelden. But that is not heroic and in the end the idea in itself is refreshing.

[Kalcalan]

Double post.

Modifié par Kalcalan, 10 juillet 2010 - 09:56 .

[Riona45]

Anathemic wrote...

Hawke is doing it for survival, he's not defeating the Blight, and plus Hawke is a stupid surname

And Hawke is going to be a completely preset character with NO room for choice or customization (they haven't said that, but deep down in our hearts, we know it's true).  And fully-voiced.  And an eater of babies, and that's terrible.

[L33TDAWG]

errant_knight wrote...

night0205 wrote...

So... I find it funny that people are calling Hawke a coward from escaping Lothering before it was destroyed... But... Isn't that exactly what Warden did in Origins? Warden and his group left Lothering to find help against the Blight, because they couldn't fight the blight without that help. They knew that the blight was coming to Lothering, that was just obvious. They knew Lothering was going to be destroyed. And instead of staying, Warden left in order to find help and also not to get killed. So why is everyone so hard on Hawke?

I think people just like to be negative. Especially when they have no idea what happened, yet... 

Maybe because he/she fled the country rather than attempt to fight in a more defensible place? Maybe Hawke will have a reason that makes it understandable, like [redacted because this is a non-spoilers forum], but the reason better be pretty darn compelling, or it looks like he/she just abandoned his/her country.

I'd give Sten a cookie (giving him the reason for liking them)

[Jimmy Fury]

Kalcalan wrote...
Running away from Lothering is a sensible decision, running away from Ferelden is evading one's responsibilities or duty towards Ferelden.

Remember what Alistair says about running away?

Of course Hawke may well have considered that he/she didn't owe anything to Ferelden. But that is not heroic and in the end the idea in itself is refreshing.

Who says Hawke has any responsibility or duty to ferelden? Perhaps s/he was Chasind from the wilds (remember the ones argueing with the guard?). If so s/he's an outcast to the people of Ferelden and owes them nothing.

Or perhaps Hawke was escorting others out of harms way. If, as the official info suggests, s/he was "able bodied" enough to be able to fight (note: this does not mean an adult or a warrior, in an emergency anyone who can swing a sword is able bodied enough to fight including adolescents) then perhaps someone put him/her in charge of leading others to safety.

Or maybe something happened in Lothering that made Hawke hate Ferelden. Loghain's men were there afterall...

I could keep going for daaaays about potentially heroic  or at least not-cowardly reasons to get out but I'll stop there.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:30 .

[iTomes]

but why would hawke help ferelden if ferelden abandoned lothering? why fightening for a country that didn't try to help the refugees instead of fightening some childish civil war?

[RunCDFirst]

Maybe Hawke is so overcome with guilt from abandoning Lothering to the horde that he/she tries to redeem their past actions by rising as the Champion of Kirkwall and beyond.

[Felfenix]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...
Running away from Lothering is a sensible decision, running away from Ferelden is evading one's responsibilities or duty towards Ferelden.

Remember what Alistair says about running away?

Of course Hawke may well have considered that he/she didn't owe anything to Ferelden. But that is not heroic and in the end the idea in itself is refreshing.

Who says Hawke has any responsibility or duty to ferelden? Perhaps s/he was Chasind from the wilds (remember the ones argueing with the guard?). If so s/he's an outcast to the people of Ferelden and owes them nothing.

Or perhaps Hawke was escorting others out of harms way. If, as the official info suggests, s/he was "able bodied" enough to be able to fight (note: this does not mean an adult or a warrior, in an emergency anyone who can swing a sword is able bodied enough to fight including adolescents) then perhaps someone put him/her in charge of leading others to safety.

Or maybe something happened in Lothering that made Hawke hate Ferelden. Loghain's men were there afterall...

I could keep going for daaaays about potentially heroic  or at least not-cowardly reasons to get out but I'll stop there.

No, apparently he's a coward, and anyone who doesn't think so is closed minded with no imagination. Refugees in a dark age setting wouldn't need an escort, nor would someone who's maybe at best decently capable with a sword have a family and want to take them far away, or any other possibility. Nope. He must be a coward. No excuse. Every able bodied male and female must stay to fight, or so I hear.

[iTomes]

Felfenix wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...
Running away from Lothering is a sensible decision, running away from Ferelden is evading one's responsibilities or duty towards Ferelden.

Remember what Alistair says about running away?

Of course Hawke may well have considered that he/she didn't owe anything to Ferelden. But that is not heroic and in the end the idea in itself is refreshing.

Who says Hawke has any responsibility or duty to ferelden? Perhaps s/he was Chasind from the wilds (remember the ones argueing with the guard?). If so s/he's an outcast to the people of Ferelden and owes them nothing.

Or perhaps Hawke was escorting others out of harms way. If, as the official info suggests, s/he was "able bodied" enough to be able to fight (note: this does not mean an adult or a warrior, in an emergency anyone who can swing a sword is able bodied enough to fight including adolescents) then perhaps someone put him/her in charge of leading others to safety.

Or maybe something happened in Lothering that made Hawke hate Ferelden. Loghain's men were there afterall...

I could keep going for daaaays about potentially heroic  or at least not-cowardly reasons to get out but I'll stop there.

No, apparently he's a coward, and anyone who doesn't think so is closed minded with no imagination. Refugees in a dark age setting wouldn't need an escort, nor would someone who's maybe at best decently capable with a sword have a family and want to take them far away, or any other possibility. Nope. He must be a coward. No excuse. Every able bodied male and female must stay to fight, or so I hear.

remember: when Hawke left "to stay and fight" ment fightening the bannorn/loghain not the darkspawn. why the hell should hawke do that?

[Felfenix]

iTomes wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...
Running away from Lothering is a sensible decision, running away from Ferelden is evading one's responsibilities or duty towards Ferelden.

Remember what Alistair says about running away?

Of course Hawke may well have considered that he/she didn't owe anything to Ferelden. But that is not heroic and in the end the idea in itself is refreshing.

Who says Hawke has any responsibility or duty to ferelden? Perhaps s/he was Chasind from the wilds (remember the ones argueing with the guard?). If so s/he's an outcast to the people of Ferelden and owes them nothing.

Or perhaps Hawke was escorting others out of harms way. If, as the official info suggests, s/he was "able bodied" enough to be able to fight (note: this does not mean an adult or a warrior, in an emergency anyone who can swing a sword is able bodied enough to fight including adolescents) then perhaps someone put him/her in charge of leading others to safety.

Or maybe something happened in Lothering that made Hawke hate Ferelden. Loghain's men were there afterall...

I could keep going for daaaays about potentially heroic  or at least not-cowardly reasons to get out but I'll stop there.

No, apparently he's a coward, and anyone who doesn't think so is closed minded with no imagination. Refugees in a dark age setting wouldn't need an escort, nor would someone who's maybe at best decently capable with a sword have a family and want to take them far away, or any other possibility. Nope. He must be a coward. No excuse. Every able bodied male and female must stay to fight, or so I hear.

remember: when Hawke left "to stay and fight" ment fightening the bannorn/loghain not the darkspawn. why the hell should hawke do that?

I'm being sarcastic.

[iTomes]

Felfenix wrote...

iTomes wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...
Running away from Lothering is a sensible decision, running away from Ferelden is evading one's responsibilities or duty towards Ferelden.

Remember what Alistair says about running away?

Of course Hawke may well have considered that he/she didn't owe anything to Ferelden. But that is not heroic and in the end the idea in itself is refreshing.

Who says Hawke has any responsibility or duty to ferelden? Perhaps s/he was Chasind from the wilds (remember the ones argueing with the guard?). If so s/he's an outcast to the people of Ferelden and owes them nothing.

Or perhaps Hawke was escorting others out of harms way. If, as the official info suggests, s/he was "able bodied" enough to be able to fight (note: this does not mean an adult or a warrior, in an emergency anyone who can swing a sword is able bodied enough to fight including adolescents) then perhaps someone put him/her in charge of leading others to safety.

Or maybe something happened in Lothering that made Hawke hate Ferelden. Loghain's men were there afterall...

I could keep going for daaaays about potentially heroic  or at least not-cowardly reasons to get out but I'll stop there.

No, apparently he's a coward, and anyone who doesn't think so is closed minded with no imagination. Refugees in a dark age setting wouldn't need an escort, nor would someone who's maybe at best decently capable with a sword have a family and want to take them far away, or any other possibility. Nope. He must be a coward. No excuse. Every able bodied male and female must stay to fight, or so I hear.

remember: when Hawke left "to stay and fight" ment fightening the bannorn/loghain not the darkspawn. why the hell should hawke do that?

I'm being sarcastic.

i know.

[Dick Delaware]

Uh... money's a good reason, for one. Maybe Hawke figured it wasn't worth it to stick around for some extra cash if it meant getting his skull crushed against a wall by an ogre. Can't say I blame him.



Look man, there are a ton of reasons why someone would flee a war that they think would result in a high probability of having them killed. It's not rocket science.

[Jimmy Fury]

Felfenix wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...
Running away from Lothering is a sensible decision, running away from Ferelden is evading one's responsibilities or duty towards Ferelden.

Remember what Alistair says about running away?

Of course Hawke may well have considered that he/she didn't owe anything to Ferelden. But that is not heroic and in the end the idea in itself is refreshing.

Who says Hawke has any responsibility or duty to ferelden? Perhaps s/he was Chasind from the wilds (remember the ones argueing with the guard?). If so s/he's an outcast to the people of Ferelden and owes them nothing.

Or perhaps Hawke was escorting others out of harms way. If, as the official info suggests, s/he was "able bodied" enough to be able to fight (note: this does not mean an adult or a warrior, in an emergency anyone who can swing a sword is able bodied enough to fight including adolescents) then perhaps someone put him/her in charge of leading others to safety.

Or maybe something happened in Lothering that made Hawke hate Ferelden. Loghain's men were there afterall...

I could keep going for daaaays about potentially heroic  or at least not-cowardly reasons to get out but I'll stop there.

No, apparently he's a coward, and anyone who doesn't think so is closed minded with no imagination. Refugees in a dark age setting wouldn't need an escort, nor would someone who's maybe at best decently capable with a sword have a family and want to take them far away, or any other possibility. Nope. He must be a coward. No excuse. Every able bodied male and female must stay to fight, or so I hear.

HA! so the Chantry sisters ARE a bunch of cowards.
I knew it... buncha whiney nuns...

[Felfenix]

Dick Delaware wrote...

Uh... money's a good reason, for one. Maybe Hawke figured it wasn't worth it to stick around for some extra cash if it meant getting his skull crushed against a wall by an ogre. Can't say I blame him.

Look man, there are a ton of reasons why someone would flee a war that they think would result in a high probability of having them killed. It's not rocket science.

Not just killed... The best thing the Darkspawn can do to you is kill you.

[Dick Delaware]

Felfenix wrote...
Not just killed... The best thing the Darkspawn can do to you is kill you.

Good point. I forgot, Hawke could be a woman. Well, that makes things much worse for her.

Look, you guys should be thrilled that we might be playing a character that maybe has some deeper motivations than defending their country bravely and smiting evil. The fact that this character's motivations might also be really murky and open to interpretation gives you a lot of role-playing leeway too, as I mentioned in my post on the previous page. If anything, this is good news.