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[Arttis]

I am sure some nice woman gave him a ride.

I think i saw somewhere that hinted we may play as a child.Do not know for sure though.

[phaonica]

It has also been said: "Hawke didn't just survive the blight...he escaped it"

What is the difference between someone who survives and someone who escapes?

Both are doing something to save one's own life, but IMO surviving implies necessity while escaping implies a choice.

Or to say it another way: "He didn't just live through the Blight... He Ran Away from it."

And again, to clarify, I'm only referring to his leaving Ferelden, not Lothering.

Edit: And to further clarify, I believe that this is ONE potential reason for him leaving Ferelden, but not the ONLY one. Obviously. We only have so much to work with.

Modifié par phaonica, 11 juillet 2010 - 12:17 .

[In Exile]

This whole "duty to Ferelden" nonsense is exactly what bothered me about DA:O. It is constantly forced on you that you have to care about stoping the Blight; even if you drag your feet at the begining and say you're perfectly happy with making it someone elses problem, you get forced into this anyway and get railroaded into "Rawr, I'm a Grey Warden let's stop the blight!"



Dialogue options force you to refer to yourself as a Grey Warden. There is absolutely no option to say you never wanted to join in the first place and that the Warden's can go screw themselves once Ferelden is done.



So frankly, the fact that Hawke doesn't care about the country he is a serf in isn't particularly indicative of cowardice; it could be indicative of just not being patriotic and prefering that darkspawn don't feast on his insides.

[In Exile]

phaonica wrote...

It has also been said: "Hawke didn't just survive the blight...he escaped it"

What is the difference between someone who survives and someone who escapes?

Both are doing something to save one's own life, but IMO surviving implies necessity while escaping implies a choice.

Or to say it another way: "He didn't just live through the Blight... He Ran Away from it."

And again, to clarify, I'm only referring to his leaving Ferelden, not Lothering.

But that's absolutely false. We could as easily say:

Or to say it another way: "He didn't just live through the Blight... He Didn't Care About it."

Hawke could very well be an opportunistic rogue, and not exactly see the greater virtue in having darkspawn feast on his flesh. Self-interest is not the same thing as bravery, and a lack of patriotism isn't cowardice.

[Heavenblade]

I find that a lot of people have this "nation state" mindset, and disregard the quasi-feudal nature of the world we play in. In a feudal (or semi-feudalistic) society, peasant life is the same anywhere. You work your land and give a portion to whoever lets you stick around your land (or if you are free, defends your land). Ferelden doesn't even have a strict serfdom system, so it's not like Hawke is obligated to stick it out on his land. History is full of mass migrations of people. Mainly farmers and such who migrate under pressure from either environmental catastrophe (crop ruination) or physical threat (marauding nomads who live off pillage)



The entire history and landscape of modern Europe is due from one group of people supplanting another as lands change hands under mass migrations and political upheavals. Perhaps Hawke isn't alone in his leaving Ferelden, and there is an entire large immigrant community in kirkwall of various Fereldens who decided that life sucked at home.

[phaonica]

In Exile wrote...

This whole "duty to Ferelden" nonsense is exactly what bothered me about DA:O. It is constantly forced on you that you have to care about stoping the Blight; even if you drag your feet at the begining and say you're perfectly happy with making it someone elses problem, you get forced into this anyway and get railroaded into "Rawr, I'm a Grey Warden let's stop the blight!"

Dialogue options force you to refer to yourself as a Grey Warden. There is absolutely no option to say you never wanted to join in the first place and that the Warden's can go screw themselves once Ferelden is done.

It's really easy to play a Warden who doesn't care. You get to Ostagar, you say "Forget this", and your character runs away. You turn off the game and play something else. Or start a new game with a character that cares.

So frankly, the fact that Hawke doesn't care about the country he is a serf in isn't particularly indicative of cowardice; it could be indicative of just not being patriotic and prefering that darkspawn don't feast on his insides.

Any of those could be true. He might not be patriotic. He might be scared. He might be a coward. We don't know. Any of them could be valid.

[phaonica]

In Exile wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It has also been said: "Hawke didn't just survive the blight...he escaped it"

What is the difference between someone who survives and someone who escapes?

Both are doing something to save one's own life, but IMO surviving implies necessity while escaping implies a choice.

Or to say it another way: "He didn't just live through the Blight... He Ran Away from it."

And again, to clarify, I'm only referring to his leaving Ferelden, not Lothering.

But that's absolutely false. We could as easily say:

Or to say it another way: "He didn't just live through the Blight... He Didn't Care About it."

Hawke could very well be an opportunistic rogue, and not exactly see the greater virtue in having darkspawn feast on his flesh. Self-interest is not the same thing as bravery, and a lack of patriotism isn't cowardice.

There are lots of possible reasons why he left. I'm not saying that "here are my reasons why I think Hawke is a coward". I'm saying "here are my reasons why his being a coward is a possible reason he left." Are you saying that, from the information we have gathered so far, that there is *no possible way* that cowardice was a reason Hawke left?

[phaonica]

Heavenblade wrote...

I find that a lot of people have this "nation state" mindset, and disregard the quasi-feudal nature of the world we play in. In a feudal (or semi-feudalistic) society, peasant life is the same anywhere. You work your land and give a portion to whoever lets you stick around your land (or if you are free, defends your land). Ferelden doesn't even have a strict serfdom system, so it's not like Hawke is obligated to stick it out on his land. History is full of mass migrations of people. Mainly farmers and such who migrate under pressure from either environmental catastrophe (crop ruination) or physical threat (marauding nomads who live off pillage)

The setting is quasi-feudal, but it is also fantasy-feudal. More often than not, the object of story-driven video games games is "save the world" and by extention, I assume the character I am playing cares about the world/home s/he is predetermined to save. Only under the right circumstances would I refer to that as patriotism.

[In Exile]

phaonica wrote...
It's really easy to play a Warden who doesn't care. You get to Ostagar, you say "Forget this", and your character runs away. You turn off the game and play something else. Or start a new game with a character that cares.

You misunderstand. What I am saying is that you can be reasonably convinced to help Ferelden defeat the blight during the conversation with Alistair and Flemeth. They give you great reasons why failing to stop the blight would be a catastrophe, including the fact that the Grey Wardens could very well fail to stop it if it grows to large by the time they learn of it.

The issue is after. If you agree that it is prudent to save Ferelden, not because you want to be a Grey Warden, or empathize with their cause, or care about their sacrifice, but simply because it is the most reasonable course of action given the circumstances, you are then forced into choosing dialogue that identifies you as a Grey Warden.

Take talking to Wynne - the most neutral option you have is "Why does it have to mean anything?" when she asks you what it means to you to be a Grey Warden, but "I don't want to be a Grey Warden, I don't call myself such, and once we save Ferelden I'm done with them," is never an option. I am saying that you are forced to choose dialogue contrary to what you might want in a character. Which is how people complain about Hawke in the first place. But that is not here nor there, and that's not the debate I think

Any of those could be true. He might not be patriotic. He might be scared. He might be a coward. We don't know. Any of them could be valid.

Right, so why the fixation on the fact that Hawke could be a coward, and how dare he abandon Ferelden?

I'm going to wager that your intent is to effectively say you would not be able to attach yourself to a character who could do that becuase those aren't the sort of backgrounds you create... but then that's the same as my issue with having to be a Grey Warden in a way I fundamentally refuse to be.

[In Exile]

phaonica wrote...
There are lots of possible reasons why he left. I'm not saying that "here are my reasons why I think Hawke is a coward". I'm saying "here are my reasons why his being a coward is a possible reason he left." Are you saying that, from the information we have gathered so far, that there is *no possible way* that cowardice was a reason Hawke left?

No. I am saying there is no possible reason to assume that Hawke was a coward.

[Kalcalan]

Is Hawke just an average Joe? Or is he something more? A
warrior trained in the service of a lord couldn't just run away. It
would mean dishonour at the very least.

I guess the people who insist that Hawke is a regular guy will probably enjoy playing him as an archmage...



Think about Murdock in
Redcliffe, he is not a warrior but more like a regular guy but he serves
his lord nevertheless by defending the village and if he doesn't die he
ends up
fighting the Blight.

So is Hawke more "average" than Murdock?
Probably not, but the main difference may be that he is not under any
sort of allegiance or that he simply doesn't care.

Heavenblade wrote...

I find that a lot of people have this
"nation state" mindset, and disregard the quasi-feudal nature of the
world we play in. In a feudal (or semi-feudalistic) society, peasant
life is the same anywhere. You work your land and give a portion to
whoever lets you stick around your land (or if you are free, defends
your land). Ferelden doesn't even have a strict serfdom system, so it's
not like Hawke is obligated to stick it out on his land. History is full
of mass migrations of people. Mainly farmers and such who migrate under
pressure from either environmental catastrophe (crop ruination) or
physical threat (marauding nomads who live off pillage)

The
entire history and landscape of modern Europe is due from one group of
people supplanting another as lands change hands under mass migrations
and political upheavals. Perhaps Hawke isn't alone in his leaving
Ferelden, and there is an entire large immigrant community in kirkwall
of various Fereldens who decided that life sucked at home.

That's quite
right to put things back into perspective although it could be argued that there is a strong national sense in Ferelden due to the long fight against the Orlesians.

Now in such a society a man that doesn't fit in is a nobody. So perhaps that is the explanation here. Perhaps Hawke doesn't fit in Fereldan society and as an outcast he has no reasons to risk his neck. If anything it is not a grand heroic start but that will probably make up for a much more interesting character development nevertheless.

phaonica wrote...

It has also been said: "Hawke didn't just survive the blight...he escaped it"

What is the difference between someone who survives and someone who escapes?

Both are doing something to save one's own life, but IMO surviving implies necessity while escaping implies a choice.

Or to say it another way: "He didn't just live through the Blight... He Ran Away from it."

And again, to clarify, I'm only referring to his leaving Ferelden, not Lothering.

Edit: And to further clarify, I believe that this is ONE potential reason for him leaving Ferelden, but not the ONLY one. Obviously. We only have so much to work with.

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with this distinction. To escape makes Hawke a fugitive, not a fighter.

[Kalcalan]

In Exile wrote...

phaonica wrote...
There are lots of possible reasons why he left. I'm not saying that "here are my reasons why I think Hawke is a coward". I'm saying "here are my reasons why his being a coward is a possible reason he left." Are you saying that, from the information we have gathered so far, that there is *no possible way* that cowardice was a reason Hawke left?

No. I am saying there is no possible reason to assume that Hawke was a coward.

It's rather hard to back up such a strong assertion (at least for now given the information we have) considering he/she is said to actually escape and flee Ferelden...

I understand it's problematic to have a "hero" running away but it only makes him/her more interesting.

Modifié par Kalcalan, 11 juillet 2010 - 01:01 .

[Heimdall]

I have an idea, how about we play Lothering at the beginning and Bioware lets us decide why hawke leaves.



Does he run away out of fear? Does he have a more noble reason? Did he try to stay but get conked out by a Templar who puts his unconscious body on the wagon of a fleeing family?

[WingsandRings]

night0205 wrote...

It would be cool if Hawke was the family that Sten killed.

BWAAAA this this this.

I would also like it if Hawke began the story (or at least escaped Lothering) as a young teenager....or maybe he/she left as a child.  That might explain why Hawke can be a mage -- templars just hadn't discovered his/her powers yet.

[In Exile]

Kalcalan wrote...

It's rather hard to back up such a strong assertion (at least for now given the information we have) considering he/she is said to actually escape and flee Ferelden...

I understand it's problematic to have a "hero" running away but it only makes him/her more interesting.

I simply do not equate escape and flee with cowardice. In the same way that people tend not to associate staying with suicidal tendencies.

It is possible that Hawke is powerless as opposed to a coward. Like I said before: dirt farming is not something that is particularly useful in fighting darkspawn. If Hawke was a solider, if he had some kind of martial training, then yeah - I would agree that escaping and fleeing would be equivalent to cowardice. But from what we know about Hawke, he is a refugee. Soliders are typically not refered to as such, so I stand my claim: there is no reason to suppose cowardice, based on what we know.

We have to make pretty strong presumptions about Hawke, including his age in Lothering.

[Riona45]

In Exile wrote...

Right, so why the fixation on the fact that Hawke could be a coward, and how dare he abandon Ferelden?

I'm going to wager that your intent is to effectively say you would not be able to attach yourself to a character who could do that becuase those aren't the sort of backgrounds you create... but then that's the same as my issue with having to be a Grey Warden in a way I fundamentally refuse to be.

It's all about hating on a character we only know a tiny bit about.

[lunarknightmage]

geez...........why are we all jumping to conclusions when we have....what.....a short paragraph of information?



I think it's too premature to call Hawke a coward, at this point. We simply don't have enough information.

[phaonica]

In Exile wrote...

Take talking to Wynne - the most neutral option you have is "Why does it have to mean anything?" when she asks you what it means to you to be a Grey Warden, but "I don't want to be a Grey Warden, I don't call myself such, and once we save Ferelden I'm done with them," is never an option. I am saying that you are forced to choose dialogue contrary to what you might want in a character. Which is how people complain about Hawke in the first place. But that is not here nor there, and that's not the debate I think

Ah, understood. I haven't played a Warden that way, so I didn't know.

Right, so why the fixation on the fact that Hawke could be a coward, and how dare he abandon Ferelden?

Because people assume that if someone accepts that Hawke might have left Ferelden as an act of cowardice, it's only because they're haters.

Why the fixation on defending him from the accusations?

I'm going to wager that your intent is to effectively say you would not be able to attach yourself to a character who could do that becuase those aren't the sort of backgrounds you create... but then that's the same as my issue with having to be a Grey Warden in a way I fundamentally refuse to be.

For me, I'm perfectly willing to accept Hawke having left Ferelden for cowardly reasons.

No. I am saying there is no possible reason to assume that Hawke was a coward.

Well, I disagree.

Perhaps to you, the term "refugee" implies a possible powerlessness. To me, the terms "instead of staying and fighting" implies that he was capable of fighting and choose not to. Why did he choose not to? Who knows? Maybe he was just a coward?

I'm not saying your theory is wrong and mine is right. I just don't get why this is an unacceptable theory.

Modifié par phaonica, 11 juillet 2010 - 01:51 .

[In Exile]

[quote]phaonica wrote...
Because people assume that if someone accepts that Hawke might have left Ferelden as an act of cowardice, it's only because they're haters.

Why the fixation on defending him from the accusations? [/quote]

Because I'm a huge fan of VO, and think it's a major step forward for RPGs. Constantly debating the issue, I've come to expect a lot of insidous back door arguments that all lead to VO being bad... so I was expecting the "Hawke is a coward" argument to really be, "I don't want to roleplay a coward and they're making me," so that would be the motivation for "VO is bad and destroys RPGs".

I apologize for ascribing motive that was not yours.

[quote]
For me, I'm perfectly willing to accept Hawke having left Ferelden for cowardly reasons. [/quote]

Right, which is why I retract that and apologize. See above.

[quote]Well, I disagree.

Perhaps to you, the term "refugee" implies a possible powerlessness. To me, the terms "instead of staying and fighting" implies that he was capable of fighting and choose not to. Why did he choose not to? Who knows? Maybe he was just a coward?[/quote]

I would say there are different degrees of fighting, and that peasants technically fought but were more accurately meat shields for the knights and trained soliders/mages.

My impression was that Hawke was young but old enough to be a peasant levy, and left instead of becoming a peasant levy in Ferelden. This isn't really being a coward, but is being a refugee.

Of course, it is possible that Hawke is some other case than this; all I am saying is that you need to make heavy assumptions about Hawke before you can claim he is a coward.

For example, to draw the decision he was capable of fighting, I would think you're assuming he is something more than a farmer that never before held a sword of fighting age, which is technically someone capable of figthing in Ferelden.

[quote[I'm not saying your theory is wrong and mine is right. I just don't get why this is an unacceptable theory.[/quote]

Like I said above: because I feel it's a theory that looks toward an agenda. That aside, because I think it requires pressuposing too much about Hawke.

So it's not that it's unacceptable, but rather that it's currently unacceptable because of the degree of conjecture required.

[phaonica]

In Exile wrote...
Because I'm a huge fan of VO, and think it's a major step forward for RPGs. Constantly debating the issue, I've come to expect a lot of insidous back door arguments that all lead to VO being bad... so I was expecting the "Hawke is a coward" argument to really be, "I don't want to roleplay a coward and they're making me," so that would be the motivation for "VO is bad and destroys RPGs".

I apologize for ascribing motive that was not yours.

To be perfectly fair, I imagine there are those who adopt exactly that stance "I don't want to roleplay a coward and they're making me", and that stance is being used by them as an argument against VOs. You've said that you couldn't really play a Warden that wanted to get out of the job ASAP, either, so being pigeonholed into a role is not the VOs fault. That makes sense.

For example, to draw the decision he was capable of fighting, I would think you're assuming he is something more than a farmer that never before held a sword of fighting age, which is technically someone capable of figthing in Ferelden.

...

I think it requires pressuposing too much about Hawke. So it's not that it's unacceptable, but rather that it's currently unacceptable because of the degree of conjecture required.

I don't think it's any further a leap to say "Hawke might have been a farmer" than "Hawke might have been a fighter". We have no proof either way. Right now all we have is various interpretations of marketing buzzwords. One is as equally unproven, and therefor potentially valid, as the other. 

I'm not saying your theory is wrong and mine is right. I just don't get why this is an unacceptable theory

Like I said above: because I feel it's a theory that looks toward an agenda.

Fair enough.  
I think you are probably right about it being unfairly used as an argument against the VOs. But I don't think that it is a completely unfounded theory.

[Thresh the Qunari]

he runs away from fights so yes he is a coward

[AllThatJazz]

If Hawke DOES leave Lothering for cowardly reasons, then hooray! A chance at complex motivations and a redemptive storyline, where Hawke throws herself constantly into near suicidal situations to compensate for that moment of weakness when she ran.



I'd relish the chance to play a character who doesn't start out as the epitome of heroism, but instead as someone pretty normal who gradually learns how to be a hero.



Plus, how is this really different from DA:O? As I recall, all of the Origins ended with a sort of Hobson's Choice. Yeah, my Human Noble could have stayed at her parents' side and been murdered by Howe's men, but chose instead to escape with Duncan.

[AbounI]

My theory:

Perhaps Hawke has been asked to leave Lothering for delivering a message to Kirkwall.Just a messenger, not a coward.A message talking about the coming Blight, and the Loghain's intentions.The Free Marchs is known to be the breadbasket of Thedas, so it's easy to imagine there's a lot of commercial roads, specially with Ferelden.

Bringing this message to Kirkwall will make him an important person, who allows the Free Marches to take political decisions, and to unite and prepare against these threats.

[yummysoap]

There's nothing cowardly about trying to face an enemy you have absolutely no chance of defeating. There's plenty stupid, though.

[Dick Delaware]

In Exile wrote...

This whole "duty to Ferelden" nonsense is exactly what bothered me about DA:O. It is constantly forced on you that you have to care about stoping the Blight; even if you drag your feet at the begining and say you're perfectly happy with making it someone elses problem, you get forced into this anyway and get railroaded into "Rawr, I'm a Grey Warden let's stop the blight!"

Dialogue options force you to refer to yourself as a Grey Warden. There is absolutely no option to say you never wanted to join in the first place and that the Warden's can go screw themselves once Ferelden is done.

So frankly, the fact that Hawke doesn't care about the country he is a serf in isn't particularly indicative of cowardice; it could be indicative of just not being patriotic and prefering that darkspawn don't feast on his insides.

Agree completely. A big problem in the original game is that you never really had reasons about why you specifically should care about Ferelden. The country itself was pretty bland - you've seen places like that done in countless games, fantasy books, movies, etc. Yeah, I'd prefer a more open-ended approach, but the problem here isn't so much the railroading, it's giving me reasons about why I, personally, should care about this terrible threat.