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Hawke The Coward


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#126
wikkedjoker

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I go there and hold open recruitment and get a Nun and a killer. . . . And yet the all powerful Hawke, hero of the entire next game is setting there doing what exactly?

I mean how did this conversation go.

Gray Worden: Okay I’ve got a
Nun, a Prince, a Witch, a Dog and a guy who murdered the  farmers that
saved his life, simply because he couldn’t find his sword after he woke
up.

Anyone else, how about you the guy in the armor with the
spear, what did your application say your name was again?

Oh, yes
Hawke.

Hawke: Yeah never mind about joining you, I’m just going
to chill hear, and do absolutely nothing. It doesn’t really matter
because I’ll be the fully voice acted Hero of the next game, you know
because I‘m Ninja like that.

Yeah sure I wont fight an Arch
Demon, or anything God like, but I’m sure that I’ll have some kind of
epic quest, after all my story spans 10 years.  Maybe I’ll follow up on
the bastard child that you and this witch will have. I know it wont mean
anything with ME following up on it, after all why should I give a
flying ****? But it will be closure for the player’s, I mean really they
don’t need YOU for emotional closure, I mean Who would want to see the
plots and plot holes resolved by the guy who started the adventure. No
one wants to see that, no one want to see the journey of a character
they invested so much in come full circle. I mean that would almost make
since.

So you go on your quest and I’ll stay her and protect
Lothering, and by protect I mean **** out and head to the Free Marshes, a
place ware I’ll embark on a not so noble quest to gain power. . . .

Gray Warden. . . . . . .

Modifié par wikkedjoker, 11 juillet 2010 - 11:03 .


#127
Kalcalan

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AllThatJazz wrote...



If Hawke DOES leave Lothering for
cowardly reasons, then hooray! A chance at complex motivations and a
redemptive storyline, where Hawke throws herself constantly into near
suicidal situations to compensate for that moment of weakness when she
ran.



I'd relish the chance to play a character who doesn't start
out as the epitome of heroism, but instead as someone pretty normal who
gradually learns how to be a hero.



Plus, how is this really
different from DA:O? As I recall, all of the Origins ended with a sort
of Hobson's Choice. Yeah, my Human Noble could have stayed at her
parents' side and been murdered by Howe's men, but chose instead to
escape with Duncan.




Complexity is good.  I've been trying to
advocate the point that a past act of cowardice can be a great way to
flesh out Hawke.

Regarding the Human Noble comparison I'd like to

point out that the major difference so far is that the Cousland
character stayed and fought Loghain, Howe and the Blight. Of course we
don't know for sure about Hawke's motivations yet but it's a good idea
to stress the analogy.



AbounI wrote...

My theory:
Perhaps Hawke has been asked
to leave Lothering for delivering a message to Kirkwall.Just a
messenger, not a coward.A message talking about the coming Blight, and
the Loghain's intentions.The Free Marchs is known to be the breadbasket
of Thedas, so it's easy to imagine there's a lot of commercial roads,
specially with Ferelden.
Bringing this message to Kirkwall will make
him an important person, who allows the Free Marches to take political
decisions, and to unite and prepare against these threats.


It's
an interesting hypothesis and it's refreshing to read some new input in
the thread that is not utterly dismissive but an attempt at coming up
with another possible explanation. A messenger
has a vital mission but is not required to fight. Not to mention that
it can be very dangerous.

The reason why I decided to post in
this thread was because of the phrasing of what has been posted at
gameinformer. The information we have makes it clear that it was a
conscious decision on Hawke's part. Whether or not he was on a mission
that took him away from Ferelden is unclear right now but the messenger
idea has some merits (although I like the idea of a cowardly start
leading to atonement and redemption).


yummysoap wrote...

There's nothing cowardly about trying to face an enemy you have absolutely no chance of defeating. There's plenty stupid, though.


It could be argued that heroism is defined by the willingness to do one's duty no matter what the circumstances are.

Now, in The Lord of the Rings for instance (as I'm pretty sure everyone knows the story) if the people from Gondor and Rohan turned their backs and fled, Minas Tirith would have fallen. They all knew they were fighting a fight they could not possibly win without literally a miracle, or a series of miracles (like for instance the death of the Nâzgul, the Witch-King). You could point out that in the Moria, Gandalf ran away from the Balrog. But he sacrificed himself to allow his companions to escape. Some of them might have been willing to make a stand but they had a greater mission to accomplish and couldn't allow Frodo to be captured.

What I'm trying to say here is that there is wisdom in the live to fight another day thing (what many characters did in the origins in DAO and what they all do in Lothering) but there's a major difference between living in order to be able to fight and living in order to just run away and escape.

If indeed we learn that Hawke in Lothering was nothing more than a glorified peasant (which doesn't make for a heroic start but that is interesting in itself) then it's fair to assume that Hawke was overwhelmed by the task at hand and the phrase that I've quoted at least twice in this thread states that Hawke had a choice between fighting and leaving and that Hawke decided to leave Ferelden (and not just Lothering).

#128
Dick Delaware

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You know, I'd rather that the PC's motivations for escaping Ferelden be kept murky. I'd rather it be something for the PC to decide than for it to be definitively "Hawke left because he was a coward" or "Hawke left because his grandma in The Free Marches was sick".



Seriously, if they do it like KotOR II with The Exile's reasons for coming back to be sentenced, or to flesh out why she decided to unleash genocide on Malachor V, it would be much better. It keeps things in the player's hands, plus it makes sappy melodrama much less likely with the "Hawke was a coward and now he has to redeem himself!!!" story. You should be able to play that angle if you want, but it shouldn't be the only angle you get.



Maybe I think Hawke just didn't give a f*ck about Ferelden. I know in my Origins playthroughs, I really didn't either.

#129
biomag

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Right it was that bright to stay there. A horde is coming and no one to face them except for those stupid enough to stay there. Don't get me wrong, but fighting that battle is stupid as there was no point in that. So I won't call him a coward based on that ridiculous short amount of info we have. It would be just jealous childish whining that I can't play my own character...

#130
wwwwowwww

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So surviving is cowardly now?

He survived an incursion into his town where most everyone was killed, why waste your life to take out a handfull? He made his way to wherever he is now, you don't know the reasons that drove him there.

How is any of this cowardly?

#131
wikkedjoker

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biomag wrote...

Right it was that bright to stay there. A horde is coming and no one to face them except for those stupid enough to stay there. Don't get me wrong, but fighting that battle is stupid as there was no point in that. So I won't call him a coward based on that ridiculous short amount of info we have. It would be just jealous childish whining that I can't play my own character...


I don't think people are calling him a coward because he left, when everything was going to hell. I think people are calling him a coward because he's this, at least capable warrior, and he does NOTHING.

The Bandit, the Darkspawn. Hell the Gray Wardens where there holding open recruiting, and we can't do better than a Ninja Nun, and a killer who kill people because he woke up and could not find his little sword, and yet the Hero of the next game is setting in the pub next to me, playing tidally-winks with wankers cramp, doing nothing. . . REALLY? 

Modifié par wikkedjoker, 11 juillet 2010 - 11:36 .


#132
Kalcalan

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wikkedjoker wrote...

I don't think people are calling him a coward because he left, when everything was going to hell. I think people are calling him a coward because he's this, at least capable warrior, and he does NOTHING.


That is the very reason why it looks cowardly. It is stated that Hawke chose not to fight thereby implying that Hawke would have been able to fight (and make a difference).

Unless we learn that Hawke was indeed a kid or a helpless peasant it seems that there is at least some ground for seeing him as being a coward (and don't get me wrong that is an interesting take on the character and one that allows for more depth -I don't care much for knights in shiny armours).

I don't get why people are so adamant about him being helpless as he is supposed to be the hero of DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.

#133
wwwwowwww

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Kalcalan wrote...

wikkedjoker wrote...

I don't think people are calling him a coward because he left, when everything was going to hell. I think people are calling him a coward because he's this, at least capable warrior, and he does NOTHING.


That is the very reason why it looks cowardly. It is stated that Hawke chose not to fight thereby implying that Hawke would have been able to fight (and make a difference).

Unless we learn that Hawke was indeed a kid or a helpless peasant it seems that there is at least some ground for seeing him as being a coward (and don't get me wrong that is an interesting take on the character and one that allows for more depth -I don't care much for knights in shiny armours).

I don't get why people are so adamant about him being helpless as he is supposed to be the hero of DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.


What could he do? Seriously. The town is overrunn by darkspawn to stay and fight is to commit suicide. There were a handful of templars there and the rest were peasants that = slaughter. Better to live and fight another day, self preservation over suicide is not cowardly.

#134
wikkedjoker

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Kalcalan wrote...

wikkedjoker wrote...

I don't think people are calling him a coward because he left, when everything was going to hell. I think people are calling him a coward because he's this, at least capable warrior, and he does NOTHING.


That is the very reason why it looks cowardly. It is stated that Hawke chose not to fight thereby implying that Hawke would have been able to fight (and make a difference).

Unless we learn that Hawke was indeed a kid or a helpless peasant it seems that there is at least some ground for seeing him as being a coward (and don't get me wrong that is an interesting take on the character and one that allows for more depth -I don't care much for knights in shiny armours).

I don't get why people are so adamant about him being helpless as he is supposed to be the hero of DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.


Unless there's extenuating circumstances, like you said. Than I see him less of a coward and more of a ******.

Yeah I'm capable of joining the Grey Warden and helping out BUT, I wont. I mean even to the basics of Yeah I'm capable of stopping the bandit, but really whats in it for me.

Than in Dragon Age 2 he starts the quest for power. . . I just get the impression that  this guy is not a good guy, maybe not a bad one, but defiantly not a hero.  

#135
wikkedjoker

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wwwwowwww wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...

wikkedjoker wrote...

I don't think people are calling him a coward because he left, when everything was going to hell. I think people are calling him a coward because he's this, at least capable warrior, and he does NOTHING.


That is the very reason why it looks cowardly. It is stated that Hawke chose not to fight thereby implying that Hawke would have been able to fight (and make a difference).

Unless we learn that Hawke was indeed a kid or a helpless peasant it seems that there is at least some ground for seeing him as being a coward (and don't get me wrong that is an interesting take on the character and one that allows for more depth -I don't care much for knights in shiny armours).

I don't get why people are so adamant about him being helpless as he is supposed to be the hero of DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.


What could he do? Seriously. The town is overrunn by darkspawn to stay and fight is to commit suicide. There were a handful of templars there and the rest were peasants that = slaughter. Better to live and fight another day, self preservation over suicide is not cowardly.

Um, well joining the Gray Wardens open recruitment, when we were recruiting Ninja Nun and our lovable pet Sten. 

I mean ****, Blights coming, they know form the past how bad they can be, and they know, there's no out running it, unless someone stops it, this could be a 10-30 year ordeal.

And if this guy's really the Hero, he's suppose to be than he would have joined, unless there was extensive circumstances, like I said before.

 

#136
yummysoap

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Bleh, coward or not. I find it funny that this topic managed to gather six pages worth of ridiculous argument based on a character we know next to nothing about. I'll instinctively defend poor old Hawke because I just see a lot of people damning him for not being the Warden. I mean, you guys are calling him a ****** now based on one sentence of promotional material (and, hey, we all saw the promos for Origins)



So how about this. PC Cousland basically fled from Howe's men in his origin. A few of the dialogue options is the typical "I will die beside you fighting Howe's men" and that ilk, to which Mommy, daddy and duncan will all call you an idiot. I suspect it'll be very similar for old Hawke.

#137
wikkedjoker

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yummysoap wrote...

Bleh, coward or not. I find it funny that this topic managed to gather six pages worth of ridiculous argument based on a character we know next to nothing about. I'll instinctively defend poor old Hawke because I just see a lot of people damning him for not being the Warden. I mean, you guys are calling him a ****** now based on one sentence of promotional material (and, hey, we all saw the promos for Origins)

So how about this. PC Cousland basically fled from Howe's men in his origin. A few of the dialogue options is the typical "I will die beside you fighting Howe's men" and that ilk, to which Mommy, daddy and duncan will all call you an idiot. I suspect it'll be very similar for old Hawke.


Um, you know if you didn't pick that origin he out right dies.

#138
Kalcalan

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wwwwowwww wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...

wikkedjoker
wrote...

I don't think people are calling him a coward because
he left, when everything was going to hell. I think people are calling
him a coward because he's this, at least capable warrior, and he does
NOTHING.


That is the very reason why it looks
cowardly. It is stated that Hawke chose not to fight thereby
implying that Hawke would have been able to fight (and make a
difference).

Unless we learn that Hawke was indeed a kid or a
helpless peasant it seems that there is at least some ground for seeing
him as being a coward (and don't get me wrong that is an interesting
take on the character and one that allows for more depth -I don't care
much for knights in shiny armours).

I don't get why people are so
adamant about him being helpless as he is supposed to be the hero of
DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.


What
could he do? Seriously. The town is overrunn by darkspawn to stay and
fight is to commit suicide. There were a handful of templars there and
the rest were peasants that = slaughter. Better to live and fight
another day, self preservation over suicide is not cowardly.


I've
already said that there was nothing wrong to live to fight
another day but that to live to run away was a different matter
(especially considering that fighting was definitely a possibility -and
I base this statement on the information at gameinformer).

Of
course, there is nothing cowardly about leaving Lothering when it can't
be defended from the Horde. It is the leaving Ferelden part that can be
construed as being cowardly.

wikkedjoker wrote...

Than in Dragon Age 2 he starts the quest for power. . . I just get the impression that  this guy is not a good guy, maybe not a bad one, but defiantly not a hero.  


IMO there is nothing wrong with playing a character who is more of an antihero or shall we say a Machiavellian type. I would enjoy playing a power hungry Hawke setting out to carve his own dominion in the world of Thedas.

#139
AllThatJazz

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Like others have said, we don't know his motivations yet. Cousland child was hardly defenceless at the beginning (having fought her way through loads of Howe's men already); yet she still left with Duncan - fear for her own life? Desire for revenge at a later date? Just doing what mum and dad told her? Feelings of duty to help with the darkspawn threat on the wider scale rather than just fight a lost cause here and now? Any and all of these apply, and most could equally apply to Hawke.



Cousland did stick around with the Grey Wardens, true, but then presumably Hawke sticks around to fight some nasties at some point otherwise would seem difficult for her to become 'Champion of Kirkwall'. Can't see heroic stature happening if she spends the entire game running

in the opposite direction to anything that looks dangerous (as much as I would love to see this lol). 'IS THAT A NUG? MAKER'S BALLS, LOOK AT THE TEETH ON THAT THING! RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!'



I wouldn't object to cowardice as a motivation, but solid pragmatism seems more likely given the suicidal nature of any stand taken at Lothering.








#140
yummysoap

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wikkedjoker wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

Bleh, coward or not. I find it funny that this topic managed to gather six pages worth of ridiculous argument based on a character we know next to nothing about. I'll instinctively defend poor old Hawke because I just see a lot of people damning him for not being the Warden. I mean, you guys are calling him a ****** now based on one sentence of promotional material (and, hey, we all saw the promos for Origins)

So how about this. PC Cousland basically fled from Howe's men in his origin. A few of the dialogue options is the typical "I will die beside you fighting Howe's men" and that ilk, to which Mommy, daddy and duncan will all call you an idiot. I suspect it'll be very similar for old Hawke.


Um, you know if you didn't pick that origin he out right dies.


Um, what exactly is your point? I'm saying that the option to be the brave rash hero with a completely reckless disregard for life is there, but that you're ultimately pressured into fleeing with Duncan. I'm saying that could very well be the case with Hawke, and that I'd be very surprised if it wasn't. Dialogue options still exist for the chap - he's not going to wet the bed of his own accord unless the player chooses the wussiest option he can.

#141
whinnie

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wikkedjoker wrote...

Unless there's extenuating circumstances, like you said. Than I see him less of a coward and more of a ******.

Yeah I'm capable of joining the Grey Warden and helping out BUT, I wont. I mean even to the basics of Yeah I'm capable of stopping the bandit, but really whats in it for me.

Than in Dragon Age 2 he starts the quest for power. . . I just get the impression that  this guy is not a good guy, maybe not a bad one, but defiantly not a hero.  



i think that makes for a more interesting story...i dont want to once again take on the role of a hero that does everything right and saves the day, i want some internal conflict to really make me think about the decisions i make during the game, i dont want to be some evil guy just destroying the world for no reason but personal gain, but i dont mind letting a few bits off it burn on the way.

#142
wikkedjoker

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Kalcalan wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...

wikkedjoker
wrote...

I don't think people are calling him a coward because
he left, when everything was going to hell. I think people are calling
him a coward because he's this, at least capable warrior, and he does
NOTHING.


That is the very reason why it looks
cowardly. It is stated that Hawke chose not to fight thereby
implying that Hawke would have been able to fight (and make a
difference).

Unless we learn that Hawke was indeed a kid or a
helpless peasant it seems that there is at least some ground for seeing
him as being a coward (and don't get me wrong that is an interesting
take on the character and one that allows for more depth -I don't care
much for knights in shiny armours).

I don't get why people are so
adamant about him being helpless as he is supposed to be the hero of
DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.


What
could he do? Seriously. The town is overrunn by darkspawn to stay and
fight is to commit suicide. There were a handful of templars there and
the rest were peasants that = slaughter. Better to live and fight
another day, self preservation over suicide is not cowardly.


I've
already said that there was nothing wrong to live to fight
another day but that to live to run away was a different matter
(especially considering that fighting was definitely a possibility -and
I base this statement on the information at gameinformer).

Of
course, there is nothing cowardly about leaving Lothering when it can't
be defended from the Horde. It is the leaving Ferelden part that can be
construed as being cowardly.

wikkedjoker wrote...

Than in Dragon Age 2 he starts the quest for power. . . I just get the impression that  this guy is not a good guy, maybe not a bad one, but defiantly not a hero.  


IMO there is nothing wrong with playing a character who is more of an antihero or shall we say a Machiavellian type. I would enjoy playing a power hungry Hawke setting out to carve his own dominion in the world of Thedas.


Lol Right?
I've always love the Evil vs Bigger Evil myself, like Riddick.

I think this biggest problem is Lothering.  Anyone with a brain would get the hell out of doge when a hoard of creatures that just want you, and everyone around dead, with no real reason other than;

"Hello Evil." is coming.

But we spent WAY too much time in Lothering, and really did see everything it had to offer, this is a continuity error, at best.




:devil:

#143
Hulk Hsieh

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Maybe Hawke needs to protect the other refugee from Lothering to a safe place.

We just don't know the detail.

#144
wikkedjoker

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yummysoap wrote...

wikkedjoker wrote...

yummysoap wrote...

Bleh, coward or not. I find it funny that this topic managed to gather six pages worth of ridiculous argument based on a character we know next to nothing about. I'll instinctively defend poor old Hawke because I just see a lot of people damning him for not being the Warden. I mean, you guys are calling him a ****** now based on one sentence of promotional material (and, hey, we all saw the promos for Origins)

So how about this. PC Cousland basically fled from Howe's men in his origin. A few of the dialogue options is the typical "I will die beside you fighting Howe's men" and that ilk, to which Mommy, daddy and duncan will all call you an idiot. I suspect it'll be very similar for old Hawke.


Um, you know if you didn't pick that origin he out right dies.


Um, what exactly is your point? I'm saying that the option to be the brave rash hero with a completely reckless disregard for life is there, but that you're ultimately pressured into fleeing with Duncan. I'm saying that could very well be the case with Hawke, and that I'd be very surprised if it wasn't. Dialogue options still exist for the chap - he's not going to wet the bed of his own accord unless the player chooses the wussiest option he can.

Well my point was, if you didn't pick Cousland he stayed and fought, and
died retrospectively he only becomes a 'coward' when we play as him, take of that what you will.  

#145
Kalcalan

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whinnie wrote...

wikkedjoker wrote...

Unless there's extenuating circumstances, like you said. Than I see him less of a coward and more of a ******.

Yeah I'm capable of joining the Grey Warden and helping out BUT, I wont. I mean even to the basics of Yeah I'm capable of stopping the bandit, but really whats in it for me.

Than in Dragon Age 2 he starts the quest for power. . . I just get the impression that  this guy is not a good guy, maybe not a bad one, but defiantly not a hero.  



i think that makes for a more interesting story...i dont want to once again take on the role of a hero that does everything right and saves the day, i want some internal conflict to really make me think about the decisions i make during the game, i dont want to be some evil guy just destroying the world for no reason but personal gain, but i dont mind letting a few bits off it burn on the way.


Exactly.

A pragmatist/Machiavellian character doesn't consider himself/herself to be evil. In many cases evil is a pointless philosophical notion and morality an impediment.

The point that there is no "ancient evil" acting as an antagonist in DA2 is refreshing.

#146
Dick Delaware

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Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Maybe Hawke needs to protect the other refugee from Lothering to a safe place.
We just don't know the detail.


I'd rather those details be kept open to interpretation. If you want to play a PC who left for altruistic reasons, there should be dialogue options and hopefully scenarios that support that. Likewise, if you want to play someone that escaped in order to cover their own ass, there should also be dialogue options that let you play that angle to.

It would be best if you are given a series of events, but the specifics of which aren't TOO detailed. Enough for you to know what happened, but also not enough for the game to choose a reason for you. The whole  "haunted by his past and wants to redeem himself from cowardice" angle is OK, but it's tricky because if done poorly it could come off as angsty JRPG melodrama. Also it restricts the player in terms of role-playing.

#147
Rogue Unit

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A human noble flees Castle Highever. Would that be considered cowardice. No. Howe's forces the had the obvious advantage.
Hawke leaving Ferelden. Cowardice? No. Everyone thought the Wardens were gone and the army lost. There was no way Hawke and a handful of templars could battle the horde and even hope to win.
Loghain abandoning the King and his army was a cowardice act. Though he was say otherwise.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 11 juillet 2010 - 01:21 .


#148
Zephee

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i think it's great that he just ran away. that's what i would have done. i'm sick of playing the big huge hero who saves the world from evil in the span of a couple months to a year, it's getting a bit tired.

#149
jaikss

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night0205 wrote...

It would be cool if Hawke was the family that Sten killed.


"the only one who survived the carnage was a young child hiding in a ..."

Oh my ..

#150
Ulicus

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Siradix wrote...

Drasill wrote...

Wasn't Hawke just a kid during that time?


Probably not. Most likely we will have to play the part of escaping from Lothering.

Which is awesome! Not getting to see the destruction of Lothering in a cutscene was one of the big dropped balls of Dragon Age. I love the fact that DA2 is -- at least in part -- going to take place concurrently with the first game as it will allow them to actually show us more of the Blight that, to be honest, always felt a bit nonexistant in the first game.

I know "defeating it before it even began" is part of the point... but it was supposed to have ravaged Ferelden and, for the most part, we never really got a sense of that.

And, I know there are some people who are upset about not being to play the Warden again... but I get the feeling that our DA characters may well end up looking far more heroic from someone else's perspective.

Additionally: Linking Hawke to the farmers slain by Sten would be a cool move (as would be linking him to the farmers who tried to collect the bounty on the Wardens). Though I'm pretty sure Sten was supposed to have killed everyone he attacked.

Modifié par Ulicus, 11 juillet 2010 - 02:55 .