has anyone considered the fact that maybe while creating origins bioware already knew what story they had in the works for the next game? so the actual destruction of lothering might have been left out just to make it more dramatic in this game? maybe thats just the ramblings of a mad man but it is a possibility.
Hawke The Coward
Débuté par
night0205
, juil. 10 2010 07:40
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#152
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 03:05
jaikss
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Ulicus wrote...
Though I'm pretty sure Sten was supposed to have killed everyone he attacked.
Unless Im thinking of something else (which is very possible,has been a while)when you talk to the revered mother of lothering about the qunaris crime she does say there was a young child who hid and survived the carnage caused by the qunari.
#153
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 03:10
whinnie
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that is correct, their was one child who survived...but we dont know how old he was so he may be too young to have the option of even being considered to fight so the whole decided to run instead of fight thing may not fit.jaikss wrote...
Ulicus wrote...
Though I'm pretty sure Sten was supposed to have killed everyone he attacked.
Unless I'm thinking of something else (which is very possible,has been a while)when you talk to the revered mother of lothering about the qunaris crime she does say there was a young child who hid and survived the carnage caused by the qunari.
but it would be a very interesting twist if we meet sten again (I'm sure he was supposedly venturing north)
#154
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 03:19
Ulicus
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Oh, interesting....jaikss wrote...
Ulicus wrote...
Though I'm pretty sure Sten was supposed to have killed everyone he attacked.
Unless Im thinking of something else (which is very possible,has been a while)when you talk to the revered mother of lothering about the qunaris crime she does say there was a young child who hid and survived the carnage caused by the qunari.
#155
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 03:34
Terastar
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Leliana was in Lothering for two years before we came along if I remember right. So I would think she would have came across this Hawke person.
Also Nathaniel Howe was in the Free Marches during the time that we are saving Ferelden so he is likely as not to have known about this Hawke person.
Maybe Nathaniel stopped over in Lothering on his way to the free marches and talked to Hawke even asking Hawke to come and join them. At the time Hawke refused and stayed in Lothering until the darkspawn came so then Hawke left and went to hook up with Nathaniel's group.
Just a thought.
Also Nathaniel Howe was in the Free Marches during the time that we are saving Ferelden so he is likely as not to have known about this Hawke person.
Maybe Nathaniel stopped over in Lothering on his way to the free marches and talked to Hawke even asking Hawke to come and join them. At the time Hawke refused and stayed in Lothering until the darkspawn came so then Hawke left and went to hook up with Nathaniel's group.
Just a thought.
#156
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 03:45
KennethAFTopp
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I am really hoping it's a little bit more murky, where the player can decide the reasons and such for Hawke fleeing, otherwise where's the roleplay?
I mean, then we're just playing Bioware Hawke.
Even in the ME I kinda felt I could play a Shepard I wanted to play, except for one thing that bastard was a little obsessed with those douchebag humans.
I mean, then we're just playing Bioware Hawke.
Even in the ME I kinda felt I could play a Shepard I wanted to play, except for one thing that bastard was a little obsessed with those douchebag humans.
#157
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 04:14
CHRiTTeR
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Eveyone who stayed died... If you're going to call him a coward at least call him a smart one.
If you are facing a pack of hungry wolves and there is no way you can defeat them... are you a coward if you run for your life and survive?
If you are facing a pack of hungry wolves and there is no way you can defeat them... are you a coward if you run for your life and survive?
Modifié par CHRiTTeR, 11 juillet 2010 - 04:15 .
#158
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 04:23
CHRiTTeR
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whinnie wrote...
has anyone considered the fact that maybe while creating origins bioware already knew what story they had in the works for the next game? so the actual destruction of lothering might have been left out just to make it more dramatic in this game? maybe thats just the ramblings of a mad man but it is a possibility.
Yes, this is almost certainly the case.
These games are huge and take a lot of work to create. It is verry unlikely they just started working on it after DAO & DAA were done. The release is too close for that or they have a team that doesnt need sleep and has no social life at all... Omg, bioware is actually located in some underground cave dungeon where inprisoned programmers and artists are forced to work like crazy on games... until they drop on the floor, begging for water but only getting whipped over and over because they need to produce more DLC!
#159
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 04:29
In Exile
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[quote]phaonica wrote...
To be perfectly fair, I imagine there are those who adopt exactly that stance "I don't want to roleplay a coward and they're making me", and that stance is being used by them as an argument against VOs. You've said that you couldn't really play a Warden that wanted to get out of the job ASAP, either, so being pigeonholed into a role is not the VOs fault. That makes sense.
[/quote]
Don't get me wrong - I get the sentiment. The issue is quite simply that I don't believe that VO is the cause. To put it another way - it is not the fact that Hawke has VO that makes you potentially railroaded into a coward; it is the fact that the writers have written a story where Hawke could conceivably only be a coward.
[quote]I don't think it's any further a leap to say "Hawke might have been a
farmer" than "Hawke might have been a fighter". We have no proof either
way. Right now all we have is various interpretations of marketing
buzzwords. One is as equally unproven, and therefor potentially valid,
as the other. [/quote]
I happen to agree. My point is, as before, that these are equivalent positions since there is no evidence to favour one versus the other, so to say that Hawke is a coward at this point is as justifies as to say Hawke is a teenager versus an adult... which is unjustified in either case.
[quote]wikkedjoker wrote...
I go there and hold open recruitment and get a Nun and a killer. . . .
And yet the all powerful Hawke, hero of the entire next game is setting
there doing what exactly?[/quote]
Leliana is a bard and an assassin, and Sten is a solider trained from birth. Hawke, the point is, isn't all powerful at Lothering. If Hawke becomes a hero but starts as a coward, I would think the whole story is the story of a redemption. If anything, it could be circumstantial that he becomes the Hero of Kirkwall, and Hawke could have the option of always believing he does not deserve the fame.
[quote]
The Bandit, the Darkspawn. Hell the Gray Wardens where there holding
open recruiting, and we can't do better than a Ninja Nun, and a killer
who kill people because he woke up and could not find his little sword,
and yet the Hero of the next game is setting in the pub next to me,
playing tidally-winks with wankers cramp, doing nothing. . . REALLY? [/quote]
Now you're daring to railroad my game? My Grey Warden was not openly recruiting, going around telling people he was a Grey Warden. He made it very clear to both Leliana and to the bartender that he was not['/b] a Warden, and never openly identified as such unless forced to.
So the fact that [b]you want to rant against Hawke is well and good, but don't pretend that the very virtue you want to espouse, the open-ended gameplay of DA:O, meant that Hawke had to join the army.
Not to mention, again that we have no idea how competent Hawke was and both Sten and Leliana were hardened veterans.
[quote] Dick Delaware wrote....
Seriously, if they do it like KotOR II with The Exile's reasons for
coming back to be sentenced, or to flesh out why she decided to unleash
genocide on Malachor V, it would be much better. [/quote]
.... But they didn 't do that. They out and out said that the reason the Exile left the force was because of cowardice. Malchor V is kept up in the air and they try to give you several motivations for coming back.. but you are forced into motives in that game.
[quote]Kalkalan wrote... [/quote]
I don't get why people are so adamant about him being helpless as he
is supposed to be the hero of DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.[/quote]
I know this is an incredibly, amazing mental leap for you to make... but it is within the realm of possibility he had the capability to fight as a peasant levy and not a trained solider and OMG, over the course of 10 years he could actually learn to fight.
I know, absolutely shocking that people can start from nothing, knowing noting, and learn and become great. Good thing we in the real world know that we're born ready-to-go with all our knowledge, and certainly don't spend two decades sending our children to places specialized for teaching them things.
To be perfectly fair, I imagine there are those who adopt exactly that stance "I don't want to roleplay a coward and they're making me", and that stance is being used by them as an argument against VOs. You've said that you couldn't really play a Warden that wanted to get out of the job ASAP, either, so being pigeonholed into a role is not the VOs fault. That makes sense.
[/quote]
Don't get me wrong - I get the sentiment. The issue is quite simply that I don't believe that VO is the cause. To put it another way - it is not the fact that Hawke has VO that makes you potentially railroaded into a coward; it is the fact that the writers have written a story where Hawke could conceivably only be a coward.
[quote]I don't think it's any further a leap to say "Hawke might have been a
farmer" than "Hawke might have been a fighter". We have no proof either
way. Right now all we have is various interpretations of marketing
buzzwords. One is as equally unproven, and therefor potentially valid,
as the other. [/quote]
I happen to agree. My point is, as before, that these are equivalent positions since there is no evidence to favour one versus the other, so to say that Hawke is a coward at this point is as justifies as to say Hawke is a teenager versus an adult... which is unjustified in either case.
[quote]wikkedjoker wrote...
I go there and hold open recruitment and get a Nun and a killer. . . .
And yet the all powerful Hawke, hero of the entire next game is setting
there doing what exactly?[/quote]
Leliana is a bard and an assassin, and Sten is a solider trained from birth. Hawke, the point is, isn't all powerful at Lothering. If Hawke becomes a hero but starts as a coward, I would think the whole story is the story of a redemption. If anything, it could be circumstantial that he becomes the Hero of Kirkwall, and Hawke could have the option of always believing he does not deserve the fame.
[quote]
The Bandit, the Darkspawn. Hell the Gray Wardens where there holding
open recruiting, and we can't do better than a Ninja Nun, and a killer
who kill people because he woke up and could not find his little sword,
and yet the Hero of the next game is setting in the pub next to me,
playing tidally-winks with wankers cramp, doing nothing. . . REALLY? [/quote]
Now you're daring to railroad my game? My Grey Warden was not openly recruiting, going around telling people he was a Grey Warden. He made it very clear to both Leliana and to the bartender that he was not['/b] a Warden, and never openly identified as such unless forced to.
So the fact that [b]you want to rant against Hawke is well and good, but don't pretend that the very virtue you want to espouse, the open-ended gameplay of DA:O, meant that Hawke had to join the army.
Not to mention, again that we have no idea how competent Hawke was and both Sten and Leliana were hardened veterans.
[quote] Dick Delaware wrote....
Seriously, if they do it like KotOR II with The Exile's reasons for
coming back to be sentenced, or to flesh out why she decided to unleash
genocide on Malachor V, it would be much better. [/quote]
.... But they didn 't do that. They out and out said that the reason the Exile left the force was because of cowardice. Malchor V is kept up in the air and they try to give you several motivations for coming back.. but you are forced into motives in that game.
[quote]Kalkalan wrote... [/quote]
I don't get why people are so adamant about him being helpless as he
is supposed to be the hero of DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.[/quote]
I know this is an incredibly, amazing mental leap for you to make... but it is within the realm of possibility he had the capability to fight as a peasant levy and not a trained solider and OMG, over the course of 10 years he could actually learn to fight.
I know, absolutely shocking that people can start from nothing, knowing noting, and learn and become great. Good thing we in the real world know that we're born ready-to-go with all our knowledge, and certainly don't spend two decades sending our children to places specialized for teaching them things.
#160
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:00
RinpocheSchnozberry
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I'm telling you this right now: Hawke is the kid from the bridge is Lothering.
It is a true face. Hawke is the BRIDGE to DA2.
It is a true face. Hawke is the BRIDGE to DA2.
#161
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 05:00
mopotter
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night0205 wrote...
So... I find it funny that people are calling Hawke a coward from escaping Lothering before it was destroyed... But... Isn't that exactly what Warden did in Origins? Warden and his group left Lothering to find help against the Blight, because they couldn't fight the blight without that help. They knew that the blight was coming to Lothering, that was just obvious. They knew Lothering was going to be destroyed. And instead of staying, Warden left in order to find help and also not to get killed. So why is everyone so hard on Hawke?
I think people just like to be negative. Especially when they have no idea what happened, yet...
I tend to agree. Also I don't think we know enough. Hawke may be trying to help a family or some kids, or a group of people escape and to stay and fight would doom them all. Or conscripted to deliver a message that had to be delivered. And finally if Hawke was alone and panicked at seeing a gazillion demonspawns coming, I would probably run also. Until we know more,I think referring to Hawke as a coward is a bit extreme.
#162
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 07:15
phaonica
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In Exile wrote...
phaonica wrote...
To be perfectly fair, I imagine there are those who adopt exactly that stance "I don't want to roleplay a coward and they're making me", and that stance is being used by them as an argument against VOs. You've said that you couldn't really play a Warden that wanted to get out of the job ASAP, either, so being pigeonholed into a role is not the VOs fault. That makes sense.
Don't get me wrong - I get the sentiment. The issue is quite simply that I don't believe that VO is the cause. To put it another way - it is not the fact that Hawke has VO that makes you potentially railroaded into a coward; it is the fact that the writers have written a story where Hawke could conceivably only be a coward.
I think I understand your argument against using the coward theory to further an agenda against VOs. I can certainly understand that.
I don't think it's any further a leap to say "Hawke might have been a
farmer" than "Hawke might have been a fighter". We have no proof either
way. Right now all we have is various interpretations of marketing
buzzwords. One is as equally unproven, and therefor potentially valid,
as the other.
I happen to agree. My point is, as before, that these are equivalent positions since there is no evidence to favour one versus the other, so to say that Hawke is a coward at this point is as justifies as to say Hawke is a teenager versus an adult... which is unjustified in either case.
I still personally think that the coward theory is a valid interpretation of the buzzwords, and I don't believe I take that stance with an agenda against the VOs or against Hawke. It's just how I personally interpret those words and phrases. I think that some people who insist that the theory is invalid are mostly also just protecting their agenda (whether that is in support of the VOs or Hawke or Bioware or whatever), in the same way that you've insisted that people who support the coward theory are using it to further their agenda against the VOs. The theory is not invalid or unsupported, it's just unproven.
Edit: And some on both sides of the argument are just plain not bothering to read the opposing argument. (not you, but many).
Modifié par phaonica, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:58 .
#163
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 07:26
mopotter
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yummysoap wrote...
There's nothing cowardly about trying to face an enemy you have absolutely no chance of defeating. There's plenty stupid, though.
Agree.
#164
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 07:40
Lord Lemartius Marcelios Andreas
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... How many of you all would stay in your house when you know an army of Darkspawn are about to break in and destroy you, your family, your friends, your dog? I wouldn't. I'd be running like a little girl screaming at the top of my lung for someone to save me, tbh.
#165
Posté 11 juillet 2010 - 11:52
Kalcalan
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[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]Kalkalan wrote... [/quote]
I don't get why people are so adamant about him being helpless as he
is supposed to be the hero of DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.[/quote]
I know this is an incredibly, amazing mental leap for you to make... but it is within the realm of possibility he had the capability to fight as a peasant levy and not a trained solider and OMG, over the course of 10 years he could actually learn to fight.
I know, absolutely shocking that people can start from nothing, knowing noting, and learn and become great. Good thing we in the real world know that we're born ready-to-go with all our knowledge, and certainly don't spend two decades sending our children to places specialized for teaching them things.
[/quote]
The game is supposed to span over a decade, not Hawke training. If Hawke is not a kid then it is highly probable (read almost certain) that he had more than basic training in his field of expertise.
Game wise let me remind you a level 1 character is not useless (thanks to level scaling). That is metaknowledge but it is quite true (otherwise most fights in the origins would be impossible to complete).
Now if you think that a character who may be young but not too young to fight (or it wouldn't be a possibility and that is what the information we have stated -I'm not making this up) has absolutely no ability whatsoever as far as fighting is concerned then good luck making that character a hero...
In the real world, if you train for a career, you still know a few things before even starting your actual training. You don't start as a clean slate. Let's say you have to drive a car or fire a gun, you may need some training to be good at it but anybody can start a car or press a trigger (not stalling or aiming is another thing). Swinging a sword around (or using a spear to fight as a Spartan) is something that doesn't require ten years of training...
You may spend 20 years honing your skills in a martial art in order to master it, but basic combat training doesn't take years especially in a medieval world using medieval fighting techniques. Hunting was common enough and it required techniques that were useful on the battlefield.
Providing that Hawke is not a toddler or a street urchin in Lothering (which is not the case or fighting wouldn't be listed as a possibility) then it is highly unlikely that Hawke has no skills whatsoever that could be of some use in a fight (any rogue starts with Below the Belt).
[quote]Kalkalan wrote... [/quote]
I don't get why people are so adamant about him being helpless as he
is supposed to be the hero of DA2 and therefore can't be that helpless.[/quote]
I know this is an incredibly, amazing mental leap for you to make... but it is within the realm of possibility he had the capability to fight as a peasant levy and not a trained solider and OMG, over the course of 10 years he could actually learn to fight.
I know, absolutely shocking that people can start from nothing, knowing noting, and learn and become great. Good thing we in the real world know that we're born ready-to-go with all our knowledge, and certainly don't spend two decades sending our children to places specialized for teaching them things.
[/quote]
The game is supposed to span over a decade, not Hawke training. If Hawke is not a kid then it is highly probable (read almost certain) that he had more than basic training in his field of expertise.
Game wise let me remind you a level 1 character is not useless (thanks to level scaling). That is metaknowledge but it is quite true (otherwise most fights in the origins would be impossible to complete).
Now if you think that a character who may be young but not too young to fight (or it wouldn't be a possibility and that is what the information we have stated -I'm not making this up) has absolutely no ability whatsoever as far as fighting is concerned then good luck making that character a hero...
In the real world, if you train for a career, you still know a few things before even starting your actual training. You don't start as a clean slate. Let's say you have to drive a car or fire a gun, you may need some training to be good at it but anybody can start a car or press a trigger (not stalling or aiming is another thing). Swinging a sword around (or using a spear to fight as a Spartan) is something that doesn't require ten years of training...
You may spend 20 years honing your skills in a martial art in order to master it, but basic combat training doesn't take years especially in a medieval world using medieval fighting techniques. Hunting was common enough and it required techniques that were useful on the battlefield.
Providing that Hawke is not a toddler or a street urchin in Lothering (which is not the case or fighting wouldn't be listed as a possibility) then it is highly unlikely that Hawke has no skills whatsoever that could be of some use in a fight (any rogue starts with Below the Belt).
#166
Posté 12 juillet 2010 - 02:12
RinpocheSchnozberry
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Kalcalan wrote...
Providing that Hawke is not a toddler or a street urchin in Lothering (which is not the case or fighting wouldn't be listed as a possibility) then it is highly unlikely that Hawke has no skills whatsoever that could be of some use in a fight (any rogue starts with Below the Belt).
Where has it been said Hawke has the option to fight his way out of Lothering? I totally missed that!
#167
Posté 12 juillet 2010 - 02:58
wicked_being
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If the pre-order screenies are real...then Hawke's is one very very muscular man. If he was at that age when he left Lothering and fled to Kirkwall then he shouldn't be "destitute" as mentioned in the initial info.
#168
Posté 12 juillet 2010 - 03:09
Hulk Hsieh
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Maybe Hawke was planning to stay and fight. But after seeing that the two Wardens who are supposed to fight the darkspawns and protect people also fled from Lothering and didn't come back, he found it pointless to stay.
We know we are going to see DA:O events in a different angle, and "Wardens abandoned Lothering" might be a good one.
We know we are going to see DA:O events in a different angle, and "Wardens abandoned Lothering" might be a good one.
#169
Posté 12 juillet 2010 - 04:00
BallaZs
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I don't think that Hawke would be a coward, though we don't know much about him.
His escaping from Lothering was the order of his survival. There was no chance to stop the Darkspawn horde there. And don't forget that he is the Champion of Kirkwall even if we don't know the circumstances.
His escaping from Lothering was the order of his survival. There was no chance to stop the Darkspawn horde there. And don't forget that he is the Champion of Kirkwall even if we don't know the circumstances.
#170
Posté 12 juillet 2010 - 04:04
Eludajae
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Give Bioware a break on the name, if its not a surname, they had to come up with a neutral gender name so it made sense on a female or male character. Its really no worse than Shepard. Its nice and general sounding and can be used by either sex. I mean come on folks give the guys a little break they are trying.
#171
Posté 12 juillet 2010 - 04:11
DanteCousland
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So what if Hawkes a coward. It adds depth. I hate black and white characters.
"Oh im going to be the ultimate hero!"
"No Im going to be a complete selfish evil ****"
I went for a grey Character.
Merciless and Sadistic but polite and mild mannered. This mixture made him such an interesting character. On the outside he was a very polite man but deeper down he was as bad as Howe. Hell I want my Hawke to be a coward.
"Oh im going to be the ultimate hero!"
"No Im going to be a complete selfish evil ****"
I went for a grey Character.
Merciless and Sadistic but polite and mild mannered. This mixture made him such an interesting character. On the outside he was a very polite man but deeper down he was as bad as Howe. Hell I want my Hawke to be a coward.
#172
Posté 12 juillet 2010 - 08:56
Kalcalan
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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
Kalcalan wrote...
Providing that Hawke is not a toddler or a street urchin in Lothering (which is not the case or fighting wouldn't be listed as a possibility) then it is highly unlikely that Hawke has no skills whatsoever that could be of some use in a fight (any rogue starts with Below the Belt).
Where has it been said Hawke has the option to fight his way out of Lothering? I totally missed that!
Check gameinformer (there is a link in the forum somewhere), it says:
"However, rather than stay and fight
the darkspawn menace, Hawke flees Ferelden and heads north."
Obviously some people may think that I'm reading too much into this sentence but it seems pretty clear that fighting was an option.
I'm not saying there can't be other motives but going with what little information we have we can't really dismiss cowardice as a possible (some may say likely) explanation. That being said I really like the idea of a protagonist who would be a morally ambiguous character.
