32 réponses à ce sujet

[condiments1]

We're stuck with Hawke.

Such is the nature of interactivity, the more control you give the player the less your narrative possibilites. Many games are circumvented this by forcing certain aspects on the player character, like in Baldur's Gate you are the bhaalspawn regardless of what you do, or Dragon Age where you're a gray warden. The more you limit the player's say in a characters creation the more you can shape the narrative around them. Hence Bioware's explanation behind the "cinematic experience" with this Hawke guy.

However, this "cinematic" angle only works if your stories are good. We're all bioware fans here but lets be completely honest for a second here, for how great biowares stories are in videogame-dom...in any other medium they would be below average. What sets them apart is your ability to interact with the experience on a greater level than passive mediums, take away that control and the developers storytelling abilities alone must carry the experience.

I've also heard people reference "Planescape: Torment" as a positive example of a set protaginist in a cRPG. Do you know why this game is so good despite this encroachment on the player? The story in the game is BAR NONE THE BEST WRITTEN AND WELL TOLD STORY IN ALL OF VIDEOGAMES. The developers went all out in creating the ultimate story experience in any videogame, and it shows. Its my second favorite game of all time. Despite the set protagnist, it affords far more roleplaying than Biowares series Mass Effect with its written dialogue and has a MUCH MUCH better story.

If Bioware is unable to produce a narrative above a throwaway paperback in the bargain bin this "cinematic" approach is completely wasted. You're just stealing player interactivitiy so you can fufill your dreams of being a scriptwriter in hollywood and failing miserably and making the game suffer for it.

If you take away control Bioware, justifty it. SHOW ME YOUR STUFF!

[_-Greywolf-_]

I agree OP, this Hawke fellow better have a really interesting backstory that is absolutely vital to the plot (like the Nameless One in Planescape) in Dragon Age 2 to justify the fact that they have taken away a lot of the customization. However if this Hawke fellow is just like Shepard in the fact that he is a generic fantasy hero with shoes that anyone could have filled I will be very disappointed.

[Kalcalan]

High stakes indeed. The way I see it DA2 is going to be either awesome or horrible depending whether or not Bioware can work its old magic.



Let's hope they can.

[condiments1]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

I agree OP, this Hawke fellow better have a really interesting backstory that is absolutely vital to the plot (like the Nameless One in Planescape) in Dragon Age 2 to justify the fact that they have taken away a lot of the customization. However if this Hawke fellow is just like Shepard in the fact that he is a generic fantasy hero with shoes that anyone could have filled I will be very disappointed.

The Nameless One is a perfect example of how you can create a great set protagnist, while still allowing the player the roleplay effectively.

I'm hoping these concessions are made for narrative reasons rather than it just being more cost effective. The problem is, Bioware has yet to show me a truly great story. Mass Effect is passable, but is still woefully threadbare compared to the greats of other mediums.

If Bioware really wants to "be the forefront of videogame storytelling" they need to step up. The bar was set by Planescape and other games like the Longest Journey...now is your chance to pass it.

[element eater]

well it will probably do a lot better either way just cus of the VO games mags and casual gamers will love it so it will probably be seen as a good thing regardless of what the forum fans may think

Modifié par element eater, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:45 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

condiments1 wrote...

Bioware has yet to show me a truly great story.

Well I think Bioware managed to pull off a great story with the Baldur's Gate series, but I would agree that everything after Baldur's Gate has been lacking.

[condiments1]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

condiments1 wrote...

Bioware has yet to show me a truly great story.

Well I think Bioware managed to pull off a great story with the Baldur's Gate series, but I would agree that everything after Baldur's Gate has been lacking.

Yeah Baldur's Gate 2 was pretty fantastic for the sheer amount of options you were given, and Baldur's Gate in its entirety is pretty awesome. It was also before Bioware started spewing "JOIN SUPER AWESOME GROUP, THEN COLLECT X PLOT POINTS, THEN FIGHT ULTIMATE EVIL" ad naseum.

Funny how Bioware gave you many options to make your protagnist in baldur's gate without having to resort to a set protagnist to provide a decent story. C'mon Bioware!

[_-Greywolf-_]

condiments1 wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

condiments1 wrote...

Bioware has yet to show me a truly great story.

Well I think Bioware managed to pull off a great story with the Baldur's Gate series, but I would agree that everything after Baldur's Gate has been lacking.

Yeah Baldur's Gate 2 was pretty fantastic for the sheer amount of options you were given, and Baldur's Gate in its entirety is pretty awesome. It was also before Bioware started spewing "JOIN SUPER AWESOME GROUP, THEN COLLECT X PLOT POINTS, THEN FIGHT ULTIMATE EVIL" ad naseum.

Heh I guess it raises the question of which elite group we shall get to join this time . Mass Effect is was Spectres, Dragon Age the Grey Wardens and in Mass Effect 2 it was Cerberus, what shall it be in Dragon Age 2? The Champions of Kirkwall?

Modifié par _-Greywolf-_, 10 juillet 2010 - 09:18 .

[Kalcalan]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

condiments1 wrote...

Bioware has yet to show me a truly great story.

Well I think Bioware managed to pull off a great story with the Baldur's Gate series, but I would agree that everything after Baldur's Gate has been lacking.

I love BG but you have to recognize the fact that the whole Bhaalspawn thing wouldn't work today. It's been used over and over again in many games in which your character was the Chosen One and the subject of a Prophecy.

What made BG so great was the inner struggle between Good and Evil, between the character and the Taint within. You had to choose whether you wanted your character to embrace the Taint or renounce it:

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not
become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also
gazes into you..." Friedrich Nietzsche.

That's what made Baldur's Gate a truly great game.

[_-Greywolf-_]

Kalcalan wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

condiments1 wrote...

Bioware has yet to show me a truly great story.

Well I think Bioware managed to pull off a great story with the Baldur's Gate series, but I would agree that everything after Baldur's Gate has been lacking.

I love BG but you have to recognize the fact that the whole Bhaalspawn thing wouldn't work today. It's been used over and over again in many games in which your character was the Chosen One and the subject of a Prophecy.

What made BG so great was the inner struggle between Good and Evil, between the character and the Taint within. You had to choose whether you wanted your character to embrace the Taint or renounce it:

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not
become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also
gazes into you..." Friedrich Nietzsche.

That's what made Baldur's Gate a truly great game.

I am sorry but what is your point? I diddnt see anyone here calling for a copy of the Bhaalspawn story but even if Dragon Age contained a similar story it would be much better than reusing the old

condiments1 wrote...
"JOIN SUPER AWESOME GROUP, THEN COLLECT X PLOT POINTS, THEN FIGHT ULTIMATE EVIL" ad naseum.

type story that Bioware seems to be so fond of.

[condiments1]

Kalcalan wrote...

I love BG but you have to recognize the fact that the whole Bhaalspawn thing wouldn't work today. It's been used over and over again in many games in which your character was the Chosen One and the subject of a Prophecy.

What made BG so great was the inner struggle between Good and Evil, between the character and the Taint within. You had to choose whether you wanted your character to embrace the Taint or renounce it:

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not
become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also
gazes into you..." Friedrich Nietzsche.

That's what made Baldur's Gate a truly great game.

Thats a great point. Way too many videogame stories focus on large external conflict rather than a personal one. I think a great example of recent believable 'character' motivation would be the main protagnist from Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer. Rather than forcing some contrived reason to make the player defeat a great evil, your motivation is inherently personal. You're afflicted with a curse and must find out the mystery surrounding it, and how to survive it before it consumes you whole.

Planescape is another great example. It just goes to show that you don't need cthulu spaceship overlords to drive a plot in a videogame.

Modifié par condiments1, 10 juillet 2010 - 09:34 .

[Rubbish Hero]

It seems games like Baldurs Gate and Planescape Torement were like a participating in a fantasy novel than a fantasy movie. Pretty much all Bioware games now are about attempting to emulate a cinematic experience. Now the player doesn't even need to read. Near enough every AAA game does this.

It sucks.

[Kalcalan]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

I am sorry but what is your point? I
diddnt see anyone here calling for a copy of the Bhaalspawn story but
even if Dragon Age contained a similar story it would be much
better than reusing the old

Whether we like it or not they have to come up
with new ideas (and to be clear I have misgivings about the direction they're taking but I do hope they succeed in making an interesting and thought provoking game).

My point is that as good as BG was it would not work
today. If you consider the Icewind Dale series these were good games but
they were nowhere near the BG series because they didn't set out to
explore the psyche of the characters and in comparison lacked focus.

I
seriously would hate playing a BG rip off now. DAO didn't rely on the Chosen One gimmick either (you
could RP your character as considering himself
to be the servant of the Maker or RP him as a very down to earth guy
with a job to do).

condiments1 wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...

I love BG but you have to recognize the fact that the whole Bhaalspawn thing wouldn't work today. It's been used over and over again in many games in which your character was the Chosen One and the subject of a Prophecy.

What made BG so great was the inner struggle between Good and Evil, between the character and the Taint within. You had to choose whether you wanted your character to embrace the Taint or renounce it:

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not
become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also
gazes into you..." Friedrich Nietzsche.

That's what made Baldur's Gate a truly great game.

Thats a great point. Way too many videogame stories focus on large external conflict rather than a personal one. I think a great example of recent believable 'character' motivation would be the main protagnist from Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer. Rather than forcing some contrived reason to make the player defeat a great evil, your motivation is inherently personal. You're afflicted with a curse and must find out the mystery surrounding it, and how to survive it before it consumes you whole.

Planescape is another great example. It just goes to show that you don't need cthulu spaceship overlords to drive a plot in a videogame.

That is another point about Planescape. If you've played Diablo (who hasn't?), you may remember the ending and how Diablo 1 and 2 were linked together. That is just another example of what BG illustrated.

The fact that DA2 doesn't focus on some "ancient evil" may open interesting perspectives if Hawke comes to struggle with the realities of power and what it takes to become a ruler or a Champion of the people. That would be a refreshing take on the subject matter and make it a more mature game. Of course that is purely idle speculation on my part.

[condiments1]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

It seems games like Baldurs Gate and Planescape Torement were like a participating in a fantasy novel than a fantasy movie. Pretty much all Bioware games now are about attempting to emulate a cinematic experience. Now the player doesn't even need to read. Near enough every AAA game does this.

It sucks.

I also agree that the written word can afford a more powefully emotional experience than something with a more cinematic bent. It seems presentation is far more important these days than the actual 'meat' of the game for gamers.

Its unfortunate that games a leaning in this direction.

[Faust1979]

why do some people have trouble with a little change? why would they rather keep playing the same games over and over again? I'm all for this and it lets them do what they do best tell stories and with a pre made character they will be able to tell their story even better. I like the sound of playing a game that has it's story span 10 years it will be interesting

[_-Greywolf-_]

Kalcalan wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

I am sorry but what is your point? I
diddnt see anyone here calling for a copy of the Bhaalspawn story but
even if Dragon Age contained a similar story it would be much
better than reusing the old

Whether we like it or not they have to come up
with new ideas (and to be clear I have misgivings about the direction they're taking but I do hope they succeed in making an interesting and thought provoking game).

My point is that as good as BG was it would not work
today. If you consider the Icewind Dale series these were good games but
they were nowhere near the BG series because they didn't set out to
explore the psyche of the characters and in comparison lacked focus.

I
seriously would hate playing a BG rip off now. DAO didn't rely on the Chosen One gimmick either (you
could RP your character as considering himself
to be the servant of the Maker or RP him as a very down to earth guy
with a job to do).

condiments1 wrote...

Kalcalan wrote...

I love BG but you have to recognize the fact that the whole Bhaalspawn thing wouldn't work today. It's been used over and over again in many games in which your character was the Chosen One and the subject of a Prophecy.

What made BG so great was the inner struggle between Good and Evil, between the character and the Taint within. You had to choose whether you wanted your character to embrace the Taint or renounce it:

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not
become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also
gazes into you..." Friedrich Nietzsche.

That's what made Baldur's Gate a truly great game.

Thats a great point. Way too many videogame stories focus on large external conflict rather than a personal one. I think a great example of recent believable 'character' motivation would be the main protagnist from Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer. Rather than forcing some contrived reason to make the player defeat a great evil, your motivation is inherently personal. You're afflicted with a curse and must find out the mystery surrounding it, and how to survive it before it consumes you whole.

Planescape is another great example. It just goes to show that you don't need cthulu spaceship overlords to drive a plot in a videogame.

That is another point about Planescape. If you've played Diablo (who hasn't?), you may remember the ending and how Diablo 1 and 2 were linked together. That is just another example of what BG illustrated.

The fact that DA2 doesn't focus on some "ancient evil" may open interesting perspectives if Hawke comes to struggle with the realities of power and what it takes to become a ruler or a Champion of the people. That would be a refreshing take on the subject matter and make it a more mature game. Of course that is purely idle speculation on my part.

I agree I would hate to see a story based on the "chosen one" but when you said you wouldnt want to see a story like Baldur's Gate I asumed you were refering to a storyline based around Morrigans child. What I really want to see in Dragon Age 2 is not a story about a hero saving the world but a more personal story based around the character (like Planescape, Mask of the Betrayer ect) and I thought the whole Morrigan's child story had a good base for this type of story.

[Rubbish Hero]

Faust1979 wrote... why would they rather keep playing the same games over and over again?

It seems to be the direction the game is going.
Dragon Age was diffrent from Mass Effect, now it seems to be far more like it from the info we have.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:09 .

[condiments1]

Faust1979 wrote...

why do some people have trouble with a little change? why would they rather keep playing the same games over and over again? I'm all for this and it lets them do what they do best tell stories and with a pre made character they will be able to tell their story even better. I like the sound of playing a game that has it's story span 10 years it will be interesting

Bioware has provided roughly the same story for nearly a decade. What made them enjoyable despite their narrative imcompetence was being able to shape my character and influence the plot. Take away my influence, and to compensate you must provide me with an above average narrative experience.

I'm not jumping to presumptions that the plot will suck, its just Bioware hasn't produced a truly good story a decade. All I'm saying is that they have their work cut out for them if they want to go this route.

[Riona45]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Faust1979 wrote... why would they rather keep playing the same games over and over again?

It seems to be the direction the game is going.
Dragon Age was diffrent from Mass Effect, now it seems to be far more like it from the info we have.

...Which is slight--hardly enough to declare that DA2 will be "far more like" anything.

[OriginsIsBest]

WeHateHawke.com

[Riona45]

condiments1 wrote...
 What made them enjoyable despite their narrative imcompetence was being able to shape my character and influence the plot. Take away my influence, and to compensate you must provide me with an above average narrative experience.

It hasn't been stated anywhere that you won't be able to shape Hawke or influence the plot.

[Rubbish Hero]

Riona45 wrote... Which is slight--hardly enough to declare that DA2 will be "far more like" anything.

It's far more than it was, even it slight.
Making the slight far more, even though it's slight.

[condiments1]

Riona45 wrote...

condiments1 wrote...
 What made them enjoyable despite their narrative imcompetence was being able to shape my character and influence the plot. Take away my influence, and to compensate you must provide me with an above average narrative experience.

It hasn't been stated anywhere that you won't be able to shape Hawke or influence the plot.

Never did I say neither of these elements won't be present, but this transition represents a fundemental difference from Dragon Age where you have quite a lot of options in regards to making a protagnist.

Now this hawke dudes story happens over a decade, which might mean much more narrative influence for the player or it might mean less due to a streamlined dialogue system and voice acting.

[alickar]

well u cant stop it whats done is DONE.

[condiments1]

alickar wrote...

well u cant stop it whats done is DONE.

Well considering this is a discussion board, I thought I'd offer my opinion.