213 réponses à ce sujet

[DraCZeQQ]

Tezzajh wrote...

the way I see it the morrigan child ending is the main ending every single race and gender, every single choice you make can still lead to it.

you may say no I did not pick that ending, but everyone knows that morrigan can do blood magic and blood magic controls people which could control warden, alister or logain into sleeping with her without their knowledge. and the reason as to why he/she werent in awkening is that they were in a comma wouldnt have to eat or drink as much so could be in it for weeks till you finally wake up or die after all we were still burying people alive in the medieveal ages and after the blast of killing the archdemon that would of been enough.

male and female reason for seeking morrigan is to kill the child

a) Morrigan cant do blood magic
if the baby is to be born, the "father" would have to survive

[Tezzajh]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Tezzajh wrote...

the way I see it the morrigan child ending is the main ending every single race and gender, every single choice you make can still lead to it.

you may say no I did not pick that ending, but everyone knows that morrigan can do blood magic and blood magic controls people which could control warden, alister or logain into sleeping with her without their knowledge. and the reason as to why he/she werent in awkening is that they were in a comma wouldnt have to eat or drink as much so could be in it for weeks till you finally wake up or die after all we were still burying people alive in the medieveal ages and after the blast of killing the archdemon that would of been enough.

male and female reason for seeking morrigan is to kill the child

a) Morrigan cant do blood magic
if the baby is to be born, the "father" would have to survive

firstly she can do blood magic she tells you at the end he mother gave her spells such as the child spell and ive said the farther survived but in a veg state for a while,

[DraCZeQQ]

Tezzajh wrote...

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Tezzajh wrote...

the way I see it the morrigan child ending is the main ending every single race and gender, every single choice you make can still lead to it.

you may say no I did not pick that ending, but everyone knows that morrigan can do blood magic and blood magic controls people which could control warden, alister or logain into sleeping with her without their knowledge. and the reason as to why he/she werent in awkening is that they were in a comma wouldnt have to eat or drink as much so could be in it for weeks till you finally wake up or die after all we were still burying people alive in the medieveal ages and after the blast of killing the archdemon that would of been enough.

male and female reason for seeking morrigan is to kill the child

a) Morrigan cant do blood magic
if the baby is to be born, the "father" would have to survive

firstly she can do blood magic she tells you at the end he mother gave her spells such as the child spell and ive said the farther survived but in a veg state for a while,

and why would he be in veg. state if the archdemon soul never even touches him?

[Tezzajh]

like i said he/she was standing right on the demon when it exploded, common your bound to be hit over and knock your head which would cause the veg state

[DraCZeQQ]

Tezzajh wrote...

like i said he/she was standing right on the demon when it exploded, common your bound to be hit over and knock your head which would cause the veg state

ok i give up   "the role-play is strong within you" :-)

[AllThatJazz]

To Collider: Oops, sorry, it was your response to juztinB42 that I was responding to! trying to be reassuring, just to the wrong person...

[In Exile]

AllThatJazz wrote...
Last, ALL RPGs that I've played are ultimately choose-your-own-adventure stories, where you are led wherever the writers wish you to go. Except sandbox games, where there is less adventure and more wandering!

I agree with you completely, but you have to understand this of the opposite view:

Imagination is critical to how they play games. Things do not happen in the game, but that are not logically ruled out  by the story, are basically 'fan-imagined' away.

So the complaint is that, for example, Hawke will always be a human being from Lothering with this base experience that cannot be re-written. The fact you cannot imagine he is a secret alien agent that has been planted by transgenered lizards to report on the development of Ferelden and simply infiltrated a particular family, shapeshifted to replace the individual, and then goes through the game as a hero, is precisely why DA:2 in their eyes cannot be role-playing.

That's the absurd scenario, but it is this sort of "I need/want" to use my imagination that motivates the claims of "forced" characters, and no role-playing.

Frankly being told I have to care about the Grey Wardens, the game constantly forcing you into statements or situations that suggest genuine caring for the Wardens, and the character breaker that is Awakenings, is far more frustrating to me. But I'm in the minority becase all my characters want to advance their own status and not be heroes, and that motivation is generally excluded hardcore in Bioware games.

[Gegenlicht]

David Gaider wrote...

Dragon Age is not about the Warden-- it's about Thedas, and the period of time within it called the Dragon Age.

I guess we could drag the Warden into new stories even without a Blight to combat-- I could certainly think of things such a hero could do, even at such a high level-- but I also like the idea of visiting different stories, told through different heroes, rather than revisiting the same well over and over or trying to contrive a way to squeeze the Warden into places he/she doesn't belong.

In the last moments of the last Dragon Age game to ever be, with all prior Dragon Age games prior having inherited all the save data from the games that came before it, respectively, creating an amazingly personalized world...

...in the last moments of that last game, I want to be near certain defeat in spite of having done everything right... only to have the Warden (and maybe his/her lover or the Dog if there is no surviving lover, or Alistair or Loghain if the Warden is dead I presume...) come to the rescue. End the series as it began, with the Warden. The last of his/her line, the fallen prince/princess, the Mage Templars tread softly around, the rising hope of the Elves, or the casteless who made the entire world his caste... who came from nothing or worse, saved the world and vanished again as quickly as he/she came.

Make that character strike the final blow (spell... arrow...) to end it. Our character, respectively.

That would be the ultimate payoff.

[Juztinb42]

AllThatJazz wrote...

To Collider:

There are different types of roleplaying. They don't all necessitate creating a character from scratch, do they? Think of actors. They get given a part to play, they don't get to decide anything about the character in terms of origin or gender or age or sexuality or profession, or even morality. There's some room for manoeuvre in how that character presents him or herself, though - two actors can play a remarkably different Hamlet, for example, despite it being the same role.

You have considerably more wiggle room as Hawke - male or female, mage, warrior or rogue, nasty or nice, gay or straight (probably) - it's surely possible for you to roleplay within those relatively loose confines.

Last, ALL RPGs that I've played are ultimately choose-your-own-adventure stories, where you are led wherever the writers wish you to go. Except sandbox games, where there is less adventure and more wandering!

I think you were replying to my post   Hi I'm Justin, nice to meet you.

But this is a series that was founded on first-person narrative, in which the player decides most things about the character.  You get 3, 4, 5, sometimes 6 options of what to say instead of 3 which streamline you into 3 categories: good, bad, or neutral.  You can't roleplay with that.  You can roleplay with DA:O though, because dialogue options are abundant.  For example, my first character was a noble Templar who defends the weak, yet does not follow the strict code of all Templars.  In DA2, he will be good (probably Paragon by the way things are shaping up.)  Another example, my mage is a wise, cunning man that has no time for pleasentries nor playing around.  He has one goal, and one goal only: stop the darkspawn.  In DA2, he will be neutral.

Again, just like Shepard will be in ME3.  What separates DA2 from ME3?

You must have only played BioWare games then, since those are some of the most linear games ever created.  The developers tell you that you must become a Spectre, that you must stop the Geth, that you must stop the Reapers, that you must stop the Collectors, that you must become a Grey Warden, that you must find an army, and that you must stop the darkspawn.

Sandbox games, on the other hand, allow for total freedom for the player.  You can choose to do what you want and how you want to do it.  In Fallout 3, for example, you can choose to roam around for hours and hours before setting foot in Megaton.  And there are things to do for that long in Fallout 3, it's not just wasteland (well, technically it is.)  You can also decide major things that certainly affect the nation as a whole.  I'm not going to spoil anything if you haven't played it, but the choice you have at the end is what truly distances it from BioWare games.  In ME1, Saren and the Reapers are defeated.  In ME2, the Collectors and the Reapers are defeated.  In DA:O, the darkspawn are repelled and the archdemon, defeated.  There is no avoiding any of that.  What sandbox games give you is the ability to determine how you want to experience the game.  Linear games, on the other hand, give you a few predetermined lines to run along.

[soteria]

LPPrince wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...
And finnaly .. Please those hat .. do something about it.

From your lips to God's ears, my friend.

I don't even understand what he meant, Mr. Gaider.
But that's probably the point.

I'm pretty sure Suprez30 was asking for the mage condom hats to be done away with.

[AlainNagel]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

People should accept a non-positive "walk off into the sunset" ending.

Its different. I like leaving the Warden's story on "I'll find you Morrigan" and keeping the ring.

and i like leaving the story with "I will rule the Ferelden as a Queen" :-) no idea what more closure people want ...

My CEF has the "hangs around drunk with Shianni, telling every shem to stuff it, while making jokes about that stupid whitch who thinks we got her preggers." No closure needed.

[mopotter]

OriginsIsBest wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
Thoughts?  Am I missing another development related reason for restricting race selection this time around, other than not wanting to create separate origins?  I can see easy ways to place an elf or a dwarf in Lothering during the Blight...after all, we do meet Bodahn and Sandal there, and an elven family...so why not our character?

Does there have to be an ulterior motivation behind it?

This is the story we wanted to tell, of this one particular human.

Yes YOUR story, this is why most of us dont like the sound of Dragon age 2, and why so many of us are disapointed.

I have to say I don't get this.  It's always their story, we just get to play with it.  I was terribly upset with DA ending choices, still am and I still complain, but even with having the opinion that they were wrong in limiting the Alistair romance choice, I understood it was their story.  And I understand it was a great game.  I'm pretty sure this one will be too.

[joriandrake]

OriginsIsBest wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
Thoughts?  Am I missing another development related reason for restricting race selection this time around, other than not wanting to create separate origins?  I can see easy ways to place an elf or a dwarf in Lothering during the Blight...after all, we do meet Bodahn and Sandal there, and an elven family...so why not our character?

Does there have to be an ulterior motivation behind it?

This is the story we wanted to tell, of this one particular human.

Yes YOUR story, this is why most of us dont like the sound of Dragon age 2, and why so many of us are disapointed.

true, it soulds like some converted movie to game story and not the usual RPG where we create the main character

[AllThatJazz]

Juztinb42 wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

To Collider:

There are different types of roleplaying. They don't all necessitate creating a character from scratch, do they? Think of actors. They get given a part to play, they don't get to decide anything about the character in terms of origin or gender or age or sexuality or profession, or even morality. There's some room for manoeuvre in how that character presents him or herself, though - two actors can play a remarkably different Hamlet, for example, despite it being the same role.

You have considerably more wiggle room as Hawke - male or female, mage, warrior or rogue, nasty or nice, gay or straight (probably) - it's surely possible for you to roleplay within those relatively loose confines.

Last, ALL RPGs that I've played are ultimately choose-your-own-adventure stories, where you are led wherever the writers wish you to go. Except sandbox games, where there is less adventure and more wandering!

I think you were replying to my post   Hi I'm Justin, nice to meet you.

But this is a series that was founded on first-person narrative, in which the player decides most things about the character.  You get 3, 4, 5, sometimes 6 options of what to say instead of 3 which streamline you into 3 categories: good, bad, or neutral.  You can't roleplay with that.  You can roleplay with DA:O though, because dialogue options are abundant.  For example, my first character was a noble Templar who defends the weak, yet does not follow the strict code of all Templars.  In DA2, he will be good (probably Paragon by the way things are shaping up.)  Another example, my mage is a wise, cunning man that has no time for pleasentries nor playing around.  He has one goal, and one goal only: stop the darkspawn.  In DA2, he will be neutral.

Again, just like Shepard will be in ME3.  What separates DA2 from ME3?

You must have only played BioWare games then, since those are some of the most linear games ever created.  The developers tell you that you must become a Spectre, that you must stop the Geth, that you must stop the Reapers, that you must stop the Collectors, that you must become a Grey Warden, that you must find an army, and that you must stop the darkspawn.

Sandbox games, on the other hand, allow for total freedom for the player.  You can choose to do what you want and how you want to do it.  In Fallout 3, for example, you can choose to roam around for hours and hours before setting foot in Megaton.  And there are things to do for that long in Fallout 3, it's not just wasteland (well, technically it is.)  You can also decide major things that certainly affect the nation as a whole.  I'm not going to spoil anything if you haven't played it, but the choice you have at the end is what truly distances it from BioWare games.  In ME1, Saren and the Reapers are defeated.  In ME2, the Collectors and the Reapers are defeated.  In DA:O, the darkspawn are repelled and the archdemon, defeated.  There is no avoiding any of that.  What sandbox games give you is the ability to determine how you want to experience the game.  Linear games, on the other hand, give you a few predetermined lines to run along.

Hi Justin, nice to meet you too 

To be honest, I don't remember ever only getting three responses in Mass Effect 2. There were usually 3 responses on the right of the wheel (nice, neutral, snarky), then a Paragon and Renegade (equivalent to Intimidate/Persuade roughly) on the left. Also on the left was, more often than not, an Investigate option that opened up more branching dialogue.  I've never felt starved of choice in dialogue options in ME2. Plus we don't yet know to what extent they'll be using the dialogue wheel - why does it follow that we will have fewer options just because they are changing the format? Bio will still probably stick some skill/stat based dialogue in there as well. If I'm wrong, and they basically end up giving us three stock responses, then I will be gutted. But I really don't think this will happen.

Sure, Bio games are linear. Even something like the BG series, arguably Bio's most open games in terms of exploration. I've played Fallout 3, and the Elder Scrolls series (all of them), as well as many other games both linear and sandbox (I'm very old!). I'm very fond of F3, less so of Oblivion. But I would say that both games (though Fallout 3 to a slightly lesser extent) made quite a big trade-off for that sense of freedom and total choice - they sacrificed a lot of story.   The main quests in both games were a little weak, certainly weaker than any Bio game I've played, and while F3 redeemed itself by having some truly wonderful sidequests, the same can't really be said of Oblivion. After hours of wandering, I found myself bored to tears in Cyrodiil, something that has never happened to me in a Bioware game because there is always that narrative holding things together and pushing things forward. Plus after a while, the 'choices' offered seem a little cosmetic. Yeah, I can do whatever I want to Megaton, but Moira still lets me work on the Wasteland Survival Guide, and my dad just kind of tells me off for .. err .. doing that really bad thing to the place . Trying to avoid spoilers for anyone who hasn't played the game is hard!

Hmmmmm, I guess the apparent (we don't know enough yet to be sure) narrative style of DA2 is really highlighting the differences between those RP'ers who see Freedom as paramount and those who think that Story holds sway. Both perfectly valid perspectives, and if I disagree with yours, I still respect your position.  I believe it is possible, and even desirable sometimes, to roleplay a more predetermined character in the interests of a tighter, more focused storyline. Geralt of Rivia? PS:T's Nameless One? Both great characters in great games, I felt as though I was able to make both my own, and make the choices that really determined their path through their stories. I just couldn't customise them as much, and I feel that choice and customisation are very different things.

Wow, I REALLY bang on, don't I? I can only apologise ..

[HoonDing]

AllThatJazz wrote...
Plus after a while, the 'choices' offered seem a little cosmetic. Yeah, I can do whatever I want to Megaton, but Moira still lets me work on the Wasteland Survival Guide, and my dad just kind of tells me off for .. err .. doing that really bad thing to the place . Trying to avoid spoilers for anyone who hasn't played the game is hard!

That's just the illusion of choice that is prevalent in any modern cRPG (but especially in BioWare RPGs, in some of Bethesda's earlier games it was possible to break the main quest).

Unlike older RPGs like Fallout or Arcanum, it is impossible to make a choice that will lead to the character's doom and/or make it impossible to 'win' the game.

[AllThatJazz]

It's always the writer's story. Some just make more of a pretence that it isn't. However many hours you spend wandering about, the moment you embark upon the main quest, you are heading down one of however many roads the writer wishes. The Grey Warden who defeats the Archdemon; the former Jedi general who defeats her Sith apprentice; the Morrowind captive who fulfills the prophecy of the Nerevarine; even the former Vault Dweller who saves or destroys the Capital Wasteland.



These are not your choices, they are the options you have been given by the writers. The difference isn't where you end up, it's how you get there, and I'm assuming such freedoms will still be evident in DA2.

[AllThatJazz]

Virumor - and yet in ME2, a game that many seem to hate as being 'anti-roleplaying', it is perfectly possible to make bad decisions and fail the endgame.

[AllThatJazz]

Sorry, keep going. don't I??



It shouldn't be possible to 'break' the main quest. Fail it, yes (I'd love that option). Break it, no, that's just bad game design.

[LPPrince]

soteria wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...
And finnaly .. Please those hat .. do something about it.

From your lips to God's ears, my friend.

I don't even understand what he meant, Mr. Gaider.
But that's probably the point.

I'm pretty sure Suprez30 was asking for the mage condom hats to be done away with.

Condom hats? Were they magnums at least?

[AllThatJazz]

If they were ribbed, I'm not sure I see the problem ...

[SirOccam]

LPPrince wrote...

People should accept a non-positive "walk off into the sunset" ending.

Its different. I like leaving the Warden's story on "I'll find you Morrigan" and keeping the ring.

I like sad endings as much as anyone (from time to time), but there's a difference between sad/tragic and unresolved.

The whole GodBaby thing, plus vowing to find her, plus the ring thing...it's too much story for it to be the end. If she had just disappeared, I still wouldn't be thrilled, but it would be a lot easier to swallow.

I really don't need a happy ending (though I would like one). If Morrigan dies, or there is an opportunity for the GW to die while saving her and/or the child, I would take that option in a heartbeat over what we have now. Of course, if it's the former, then I would hope they let us end the game taking our customary trip to the Deep Roads to go out in typical Grey Warden fashion.

[LPPrince]

SirOccam wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

People should accept a non-positive "walk off into the sunset" ending.

Its different. I like leaving the Warden's story on "I'll find you Morrigan" and keeping the ring.

I like sad endings as much as anyone (from time to time), but there's a difference between sad/tragic and unresolved.

The whole GodBaby thing, plus vowing to find her, plus the ring thing...it's too much story for it to be the end. If she had just disappeared, I still wouldn't be thrilled, but it would be a lot easier to swallow.

I really don't need a happy ending (though I would like one). If Morrigan dies, or there is an opportunity for the GW to die while saving her and/or the child, I would take that option in a heartbeat over what we have now. Of course, if it's the former, then I would hope they let us end the game taking our customary trip to the Deep Roads to go out in typical Grey Warden fashion.

Unresolved should be just fine. Is it so hard to think The Warden one day found Morrigan and his child, and they lived happily ever after?

Or The Warden one day found out that Morrigan ate his baby and became the Queen of England?

Or Norway. Whichever's funnier in context.

EDIT- NO, FINLAND!

Modifié par LPPrince, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:21 .

[Master Shiori]

LPPrince wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

People should accept a non-positive "walk off into the sunset" ending.

Its different. I like leaving the Warden's story on "I'll find you Morrigan" and keeping the ring.

I like sad endings as much as anyone (from time to time), but there's a difference between sad/tragic and unresolved.

The whole GodBaby thing, plus vowing to find her, plus the ring thing...it's too much story for it to be the end. If she had just disappeared, I still wouldn't be thrilled, but it would be a lot easier to swallow.

I really don't need a happy ending (though I would like one). If Morrigan dies, or there is an opportunity for the GW to die while saving her and/or the child, I would take that option in a heartbeat over what we have now. Of course, if it's the former, then I would hope they let us end the game taking our customary trip to the Deep Roads to go out in typical Grey Warden fashion.

Unresolved should be just fine. Is it so hard to think The Warden one day found Morrigan and his child, and they lived happily ever after?

Or The Warden one day found out that Morrigan ate his baby and became the Queen of England?

Or Norway. Whichever's funnier in context.

EDIT- NO, FINLAND!

It would be fine under the condition that you don't see Morrigan again in a future DA title.

I can easily build up an ending that I like in my head, but that will only last until I see Morrigan once again and realize that ending was simply my imagination and the Warden got lost in limbo and never found her in the first place.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:26 .

[Lyssistr]

David Gaider wrote...

The fact that it was based on a D&D license was plenty, trust me. I remember the storm caused one day when it was revealed that our fire giants in ToB were not going to have charcoal-black skin LIKE IT CLEARLY DESCRIBED IN THE MONSTER MANUAL OMG.

Baldur's gate is a great game and all that, but considering the monster size with no ability to zoom and the color depth, who on earth noticed that!

[SirOccam]

LPPrince wrote...

Unresolved should be just fine. Is it so hard to think The Warden one day found Morrigan and his child, and they lived happily ever after?

No, it's not hard. But it is profoundly unsatisfying.

I could just as easily imagine a story that goes "once upon a time, there was this hero who did all kinds of cool stuff and defeated a bad guy and lived happily ever after." Is that supposed to be as entertaining as an ACTUAL book/move/game?