241 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

javierabegazo wrote...

LPPrince wrote...


Same here.

It was good for nostalgia's sake, but it didn't attract a ton of modern day fans because they aren't used to the style of old school RPG's.

If Bioware wants to make a bigger profit, they need to cater a bit to the new audience.

Even apart from profit, sometimes the creator simply wants to change the formula. There are many pitfalls to the old style as well, such as the total lack of any body language

Yeah. Some people act like Bioware can't change their own product if they want to. And its not like they don't know the ramifications and benefits of changing.

I'm welcoming the guaranteed introduction of body language. VO's mean we'll get real emotion this time instead of a blank stare.

[Estel78]

They listen to (part of) their fans, those that agree with many reviewers and journalists that the dialog system was superior in Mass Effect.

[Davasar]

LPPrince wrote...

Davasar wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Davasar wrote...

And if they didnt want to alienate people, they would have kept the same features of the previous game, and added to and improved those features.

If they did that, how on Earth would they draw in a new demographic? They wouldn't.

They'd make their current demographic happier, sure, but there really wouldn't be anything to draw in others.

See bold text, thats how.  Are you being purposefully obtuse?

Nope. I'm being honest. Being general here, modern day fans aren't huge on tactical gameplay and basically everything that made DAO what it was.

Improving them isn't going to change people's opinions. Some, sure, but not all, and definitely not the majority.

So they need to cater to the new audience as well as keeping some of what made the older demographic happy.

DAO sold better then Mass Effect 2 which is geared toward the very audience you are saying needs to be targeted, twice as many sales in fact.

They arent making the demographic happy at all judging from the complaints.  They failed at basic marketing.  Video games as a rule have gained more of a fanbase when they use the recipe for success I described. 

Thats not even my opinion, thats fact.

Changing basic findamentals that made the game successful is a foolish move. 

[JeanLuc761]

LPPrince wrote...

I'm welcoming the guaranteed introduction of body language. VO's mean we'll get real emotion this time instead of a blank stare.

That did bug me immensely.  While I loved the variety of responses, the complete lack of action or emotion from my character almost completely defeated the immersion imo.

[LPPrince]

Did you ever wonder that maybe with the change, they could keep the sales they made from DAO AAAND grab some sales from the ME crowd?



And that's not counting Bioware fans that just buy anything with their name on it.

[Brockololly]

javierabegazo wrote..

There's a huge difference between critique, and raging about "not getting what you want". Express your dissatisfaction as much as you like about getting DA2 instead of DAO2, but remember to do it in a civil way, and keep in mind that the DA series was NEVER planned to be a Trilogy ala Mass Effect where you import your save game containing your character and play across 3 games.

Well, to be fair to those of us disappointed that as of now the non US Wardens are in limbo, the devs never made it clear one way or the other what future DA games would entail. Most often they said DA was the spiritual successor to BG and that there were many stories to be told. BG had continuity in the PC across 2 full games and 2 ex-packs. So its not altogether unreasonable to have thought maybe the Warden or a Warden would be back as the PC for maybe one more game, like BG2.

And the devs never confirmed or denied how they would be approaching sequels- so its a very fair expectation given how vague an ending Awakening has and how the epilogues of Origins and Awakening claim "more adventures to come" for the Warden, that people built up some measure of continuity with the Warden when thinking of what DA2 could be.

javierabegazo wrote..
About the small percentage, I'm willing to bet that most of the posters on the DA2 board expressing dissatisfaction at the DA2 announcement (based on post content) are PC gamers, and they neglect to remember that DAO was released for 3 systems, PC XBOX and PS3.

Is that really a fair generalization though? It may be accurate, but given Dragon Age's inception as a PC-centric title its very disappointing for PC gamers to see most of the hyped up and features marketed thus far to be seemingly catered to the console crowd. Given how most PC games are implemented as shoddy ports and afterthoughts nowadays, PC gamers have every right to be weary of how DA2 is seemingly taking a more console driven approach. We've been burned before and are weary when you see extreme and vague marketing claims how much of Origins ( a PC-centric title) is being changed.

javierabegazo wrote..
"The Customer is always right" isn't always right.

The customer isn't always right, but they're not always wrong either:wizard:

[Ecael]

javierabegazo wrote...

LPPrince wrote...


Same here.

It was good for nostalgia's sake, but it didn't attract a ton of modern day fans because they aren't used to the style of old school RPG's.

If Bioware wants to make a bigger profit, they need to cater a bit to the new audience.

Even apart from profit, sometimes the creator simply wants to change the formula. There are many pitfalls to the old style as well, such as the total lack of any body language

Even apart from profit and formula, the current customers (and critics) expect everything good out of the last game to show up in the next.

Full voice acting? Better cinematics? Realistic characters? Hundred hours worth of content? Fluid gameplay?

In other words, people are holding BioWare to an increasingly impossible standard with every great game they release, and it's producing a lot of dissatisfaction as a result. Meanwhile, other game developers are falling apart trying to figure out how to imitate the successes of developers such as Valve, Blizzard, Bethesda, and BioWare.

[LPPrince]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I'm welcoming the guaranteed introduction of body language. VO's mean we'll get real emotion this time instead of a blank stare.

That did bug me immensely.  While I loved the variety of responses, the complete lack of action or emotion from my character almost completely defeated the immersion imo.

But how weird would it be if the Warden had a facial expression and no words? Rofl.

Could you imagine if before killing an important plot character, The Warden had a creepy smile on his/her face?

YIKES.

[javierabegazo]

Davasar wrote...


DAO sold better then Mass Effect 2 which is geared toward the very audience you are saying needs to be targeted, twice as many sales in fact.

They arent making the demographic happy at all judging from the complaints.  They failed at basic marketing.  Video games as a rule have gained more of a fanbase when they use the recipe for success I described. 

Thats not even my opinion, thats fact.

Changing basic findamentals that made the game successful is a foolish move. 

DAO and ME2 were INTENTIONALLY aimed at very different audiences, made by TWO DIFFERENT Developer teams.
Now that that's out in the open, DAO was released on 3 consoles, and namely, the gamer base that plays PC RPGs is incredibly massive. 

Also the release dates in Financial Quarters is totally different. DAO was released pre-christmas and ME2 was released a good month AFTER Christmas. Despite what you might think, that DOES make a hell of a lot of difference in initial sales, in addition to everything mentioned above.

[Ecael]

Davasar wrote...

DAO sold better then Mass Effect 2 which is geared toward the very audience you are saying needs to be targeted, twice as many sales in fact.

They arent making the demographic happy at all judging from the complaints.  They failed at basic marketing.  Video games as a rule have gained more of a fanbase when they use the recipe for success I described. 

Thats not even my opinion, thats fact.

No, that's neither opinion or fact, that's just wrong. Try comparing them platform to platform. They're all very much successful.

Modifié par Ecael, 10 juillet 2010 - 09:42 .

[LPPrince]

Ecael wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

LPPrince wrote...


Same here.

It was good for nostalgia's sake, but it didn't attract a ton of modern day fans because they aren't used to the style of old school RPG's.

If Bioware wants to make a bigger profit, they need to cater a bit to the new audience.

Even apart from profit, sometimes the creator simply wants to change the formula. There are many pitfalls to the old style as well, such as the total lack of any body language

Even apart from profit and formula, the current customers (and critics) expect everything good out of the last game to show up in the next.

Full voice acting? Better cinematics? Realistic characters? Hundred hours worth of content? Fluid gameplay?

In other words, people are holding BioWare to an increasingly impossible standard with every great game they release, and it's producing a lot of dissatisfaction as a result. Meanwhile, other game developers are falling apart trying to figure out how to imitate the successes of developers such as Valve, Blizzard, Bethesda, and BioWare.

These 4 are always held to that ridiculously high standard they can't reach.

That's what happens when you consistently make amazing games everyone lauds.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Davasar wrote...
DAO sold better then Mass Effect 2 which is geared toward the very audience you are saying needs to be targeted, twice as many sales in fact.

They arent making the demographic happy at all judging from the complaints.  They failed at basic marketing.  Video games as a rule have gained more of a fanbase when they use the recipe for success I described. 

Thats not even my opinion, thats fact.

Changing basic findamentals that made the game successful is a foolish move. 

You can't say that just because DA:O sold better, people liked its game design better than Mass Effect.  Correlation does not imply causation.  There are a zillion different factors that could have contributed to the high sales of DA:O.  Most likely, the release date around the holiday season, the incredible value of the game content for dollar, and most importantly the fact that it was available for three platforms instead of two contributed far more significantly to the game's sales than did any design decision.

[LPPrince]

Ecael wrote...

Davasar wrote...

DAO sold better then Mass Effect 2 which is geared toward the very audience you are saying needs to be targeted, twice as many sales in fact.

They arent making the demographic happy at all judging from the complaints.  They failed at basic marketing.  Video games as a rule have gained more of a fanbase when they use the recipe for success I described. 

Thats not even my opinion, thats fact.

No, that's neither opinion or fact, that's just wrong. Try comparing them platform to platform. They're all very much successful.

Well that certainly puts a damper on his argument. I wasn't going to go check for sales, but I had a feeling that was off.

[Tsuga C]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
I heard many reviewers and game journalists call the old school dialogue system a step back from Mass Effect

 A sad commentary on said reviewers and journalists, a great number of whom were probably born after 1985 or so--MTV-addled, attention span deprived, and not really the cRPG purists at whom DA:O was aimed.  And DA:O still won cRPG Game of Year.

Poop on those reviewers. 

[soteria]

In general, I don't have an issue with what Bioware is doing with DA2 (mostly because what we *know* could be expressed in a short paragraph), but I would like to present an analogy about/against appealing to a larger audience.

I love vanilla ice cream. It's a classic flavor, it goes well with a lot of things, and I suspect it's probably the most popular ice cream flavor worldwide. Thing is, if I have a choice, I don't actually pick it very often. I happen to be rather fond of rum with raisin. I know that's not a very popular flavor--it's not even sold in every ice cream store and can be hard to find. I guess an ice cream parlor could try to popularize it more by switching out the rum flavor with vanilla, and you know, maybe they'd be successful. It wouldn't be very much like rum with raisin, though.

I'm all about advancing and trying new features and not staying stagnant, but I hope EA/Bioware knows to let other developers do Crysis and The Sims and stick with making a better rum with raisin. ...don't try to stretch that analogy too far.

[JeanLuc761]

LPPrince wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I'm welcoming the guaranteed introduction of body language. VO's mean we'll get real emotion this time instead of a blank stare.

That did bug me immensely.  While I loved the variety of responses, the complete lack of action or emotion from my character almost completely defeated the immersion imo.

But how weird would it be if the Warden had a facial expression and no words? Rofl.

Could you imagine if before killing an important plot character, The Warden had a creepy smile on his/her face?

YIKES.

*imagines Sheploo rape face on my warden*
Oh lord

[Onyx Jaguar]

Tsuga C wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
I heard many reviewers and game journalists call the old school dialogue system a step back from Mass Effect

 A sad commentary on said reviewers and journalists, a great number of whom were probably born after 1985 or so--MTV-addled, attention span deprived, and not really the cRPG purists at whom DA:O was aimed.  And DA:O still won cRPG Game of Year.

Poop on those reviewers. 

I disagree, as technology evolves so should the medium.  Many of the old games lack VO for characters primarily because of technological limitations.

[kraidy1117]

Davasar wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Davasar wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Davasar wrote...

And if they didnt want to alienate people, they would have kept the same features of the previous game, and added to and improved those features.

If they did that, how on Earth would they draw in a new demographic? They wouldn't.

They'd make their current demographic happier, sure, but there really wouldn't be anything to draw in others.

See bold text, thats how.  Are you being purposefully obtuse?

Nope. I'm being honest. Being general here, modern day fans aren't huge on tactical gameplay and basically everything that made DAO what it was.

Improving them isn't going to change people's opinions. Some, sure, but not all, and definitely not the majority.

So they need to cater to the new audience as well as keeping some of what made the older demographic happy.

DAO sold better then Mass Effect 2 which is geared toward the very audience you are saying needs to be targeted, twice as many sales in fact.

They arent making the demographic happy at all judging from the complaints.  They failed at basic marketing.  Video games as a rule have gained more of a fanbase when they use the recipe for success I described. 

Thats not even my opinion, thats fact.

Changing basic findamentals that made the game successful is a foolish move. 

They only took the origins out, made the dialog fully voiced and you can play as a human only. Thats it. That's all we know, however what we also know is the combat will be the same on the PC and the approval system is coming back but being upgraded. As I have said to many of these fans getting mad, cry me a river and build me a bridge, we don't know that much.

[thenemesis77]

javierabegazo wrote...

NvVanity wrote...

OriginsIsBest wrote...

No,they wont change anything now.Even though most of us hate the idea of Dragon age 2 already.

You mean a small vocal minority?

It is excatly that. A vocal minority. Take your name for example "OriginsIsBest". You went out of your way to make an entirely new account JUST so you could complain.

 See its this right here,  no we made the account for DAO and the DLC, so don't take that cheap road. You mods and BIoWare are very fast to get mad when not all the masses agree with you and you know that.

[Ecael]

soteria wrote...

In general, I don't have an issue with what Bioware is doing with DA2 (mostly because what we *know* could be expressed in a short paragraph), but I would like to present an analogy about/against appealing to a larger audience.
I love vanilla ice cream. It's a classic flavor, it goes well with a lot of things, and I suspect it's probably the most popular ice cream flavor worldwide. Thing is, if I have a choice, I don't actually pick it very often. I happen to be rather fond of rum with raisin. I know that's not a very popular flavor--it's not even sold in every ice cream store and can be hard to find. I guess an ice cream parlor could try to popularize it more by switching out the rum flavor with vanilla, and you know, maybe they'd be successful. It wouldn't be very much like rum with raisin, though.
I'm all about advancing and trying new features and not staying stagnant, but I hope EA/Bioware knows to let other developers do Crysis and The Sims and stick with making a better rum with raisin. ...don't try to stretch that analogy too far.

Chocolate ice cream is superior.

Vanilla is not the most popular ice cream flavor worldwide because I said so, even though it targets a larger audience of people who do not like chocolate. You should have stuck to ice cream's roots back when chocolate was loved by everyone.

BioWare, please fix this problem this instant.

[Ecael]

thenemesis77 wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

NvVanity wrote...

OriginsIsBest wrote...

No,they wont change anything now.Even though most of us hate the idea of Dragon age 2 already.

You mean a small vocal minority?

It is excatly that. A vocal minority. Take your name for example "OriginsIsBest". You went out of your way to make an entirely new account JUST so you could complain.

 See its this right here,  no we made the account for DAO and the DLC, so don't take that cheap road. You mods and BIoWare are very fast to get mad when not all the masses agree with you and you know that.

Mods and BioWare employees know the IP addresses of all the posters. This is the standard on any forum with moderation.

If you're using multiple accounts, they already know you are.

[Gill Kaiser]

Mint choc chip is the best flavour, you heathens.

[AllThatJazz]

Plus, the marketing campaign for DA:O was very exciting, some of the trailers were just outrageously good. Also, ME2 is a sequel. And part 2 of 3. There will always be people who won't start at part two of a trilogy. Jeez, I'm STILL waiting for the Wheel of Time to finish.

[Onyx Jaguar]

The Marketing of DAO was an abomination, at least I wasn't paying attention to it at the time