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[Anathemic]

Being guilty as one of the overreacted fans on how DA2 is going, so far I see the basic arguments of "I don't like this, change it now" being responded by "Cool down man and wait", popping up in almost every single thread.

This thread is for the debate, not an arugment or flame war, but a debate on how BioWare is heading toward with DA2 with recent facts revealed/leaked.

The main issues I see (subject to be changed/added) are:
A pre-determined character
Full VO (voice-over) for the PC
Dialogue Wheel

Now to begin off is expressing my opinion on each of the first three (underlined) issues so far:

Pre-determined Character
I feel that this is a negative feature and huge transition from what I loved about Dragon Age: Origins. It's true that Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 have this feature, and even though I don't have any postive opinions about these games, I cannot deny that they are successful in terms of sales and marketing and fans.
Dragon Age: Origins was a game that gave me a true sense of immersion into the game. The character, was pre-determiend yes, but it wasn't stapled into the degree that Mass Effect's Shepard was in relation to DA2's Hawke.

In Dragon Age: Origins, I had a wide range of customization of my character, not only physical, but race and origin story, and basically who the character was each time I started a new playthrough. Sure I had a set surname and was always called 'Warden' but the surname doens't matter, because barely anyone called you by that, and the title 'Warden' didn't matter because it was ambiguous. A Warden could be anybod, you were the Warden, not Warden Cousland or Warden Aeducan, etc.

In DA2, it isn't the set surname that really matters, it's the fact that everyone is going to call you by that set surname. You weren't the ambiguous figure anymore, you have an identity from the start of the game that you can't change.

Full VO for the PC
A full VO, I feel, is a negative feature from the no VO of Dragon Age: Origins. There is already Mass Effect for the VO why bring it into the Dragon Age franchise when it is very successful without it, again the common phrase, "Why fix it if it's not broken?"

With no VO, I, like some others, have a better immersion experience with my PC in Dragon Age: Origins. I don't need a VO to state lines which I can read for myself, and in experience with VO RPG's (like Mass Effect) the dialogue I read is paraphrased and many times, not to my liking.
When I play a RPG and role-play into my character, I like to know what exactly why character is going to say and/or do, not a paraphrased version of it.

In addition, is the tone of the VO for various dialogue choices. With no VO a simple "no" can be positive, negative, sarcastic, ruthless, pratically anything, it's up to your imagination. Obiviously  VO can't do this because a simple voice recording can't express all these emotions at once especially if they're polar opposites. No VO can because it is not restricted on a voice actor's tone of voice.

And even so if you can guess the tone to the result of what the PC is going to do, some of us role-players prefer to work our minds and not have the in-depth experience dumbed down.

Dialogue Wheel
Most of this is related with the full VO issue: a dialogue wheel not only staples the fact a VO is happening, but also restricts the immersion down significantly.

Now compare the dialogue systems of Mass Effect to Dragon Age: Origins...
In Mass Effect, if there's a dailogue choice of "I'm sorry" it is going to show as "I'm sorry" and the result will be "I'm sorry"
In Dragon Age: Origins, if there's a dialogue choice of "I'm sorry" it is going to show  as "I'm sorry (NPC name here), but there's I nothing we(I) can do right now" and the result will exactly be like that, because there's no VO to paraphrase it.

And as quoted as I've said above, "Some of us role-players prefer to work our minds and not have the in-depth expereince dumbed down."


Again these are my opinions, feel free to agree and/or debate (not argue) against them and I personally hope to see a BioWare represenative response in here.

Thank you

Modifié par Anathemic, 10 juillet 2010 - 09:52 .

[OriginsIsBest]

Im worried about this Mass effect wheel. I hate that it says something comepletely different to what is actually on screen.

[Felfenix]

If they just put the options in list format instead of on a wheel, would it make a difference? I personally feel like the wheel organizes things a bit better than the list, like when I investigate, it's easier to know what will lead to more options or back to previous options, and what will progress the conversation. A list format that had dropdowns would be just as good though. The reason in VO'd games the options are paraphrased instead of exact is because Bioware wants an element of surprise and entertainment, whereas the character simply repeating aloud only and exactly what you chose would make the VO'd main character kind of pointless, just repeating aloud what you read.

Modifié par Felfenix, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:06 .

[Khayness]

As reading is my second favourite past time I have no trouble with it and I totally despite this idea of having a Dialogue Wheel.

Its options and the actual voiced line doesn't match and in a lot of cases it results in out-of-character answers.

The Gothic series and The Witcher has fully voiced main characters, and their dialoge systems are great.

Modifié par Khayness, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:28 .

[AndreaDraco]

While I utterly despise ME's wheel, which is downright silly and insulting (hey, I can read! I swear: I can read!), I really, really, really hope that DA2 well will be different and better.

[Anathemic]

Felfenix wrote...

If they just put the options in list format instead of on a wheel, would it make a difference? I personally feel like the wheel organizes things a bit better than the list, like when I investigate, it's easier to know what will lead to more options or back to previous options, and what will progress the conversation. A list format that had dropdowns would be just as good though. The reason in VO'd games the options are paraphrased instead of exact is because Bioware wants an element of surprise and entertainment, whereas the character simply repeating aloud only and exactly what you chose would make the VO'd main character kind of pointless, just repeating aloud what you read.

In wheel format, I always found the dialogue more objective than immersive, I had to 'Investigate' into the conversation to get the real jist of it, in Dragon Age: Origins' list format, 'Investigating' into the conversation didn't feel like investigating at all, you ask a question and they reply, ask another question, and they reply, it wa more of a smoother immersive feel.

[alickar]

because every game eventually changes it can have a positive effect or negative effect but well never know until we play it

[Felfenix]

Anathemic wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

If they just put the options in list format instead of on a wheel, would it make a difference? I personally feel like the wheel organizes things a bit better than the list, like when I investigate, it's easier to know what will lead to more options or back to previous options, and what will progress the conversation. A list format that had dropdowns would be just as good though. The reason in VO'd games the options are paraphrased instead of exact is because Bioware wants an element of surprise and entertainment, whereas the character simply repeating aloud only and exactly what you chose would make the VO'd main character kind of pointless, just repeating aloud what you read.

In wheel format, I always found the dialogue more objective than immersive, I had to 'Investigate' into the conversation to get the real jist of it, in Dragon Age: Origins' list format, 'Investigating' into the conversation didn't feel like investigating at all, you ask a question and they reply, ask another question, and they reply, it wa more of a smoother immersive feel.

I think it's a matter of preference. I felt like the wheel was very fluid, naturally, and unintrusive. I felt very removed from the story/conversation when I'd go to the letterbox list, as if I was reading one of those old choose your adventure books, and it all stopped and asked me to turn to page X or page X. It felt very much like a system, in a game, that could be exploited and buggy. Again, personal preference, and different people perceive and react to different things differently.

As for VO, Hawke, etc. I like Dragon Age, the lore, the setting, the gameplay. I also like the voice acting and iconic presence of Mass Effect's main character. You can't just say "Go play Mass Effect." because it's a totally different kind of game in a lot of ways, not just because ME has VO and DAO doesn't. I don't see as much being lost by adding VO as many people assume just because of Mass Effect. I welcome the change, hoped for it even, and am interested in seeing how it turns out. True, there are people who prefer no VO, but there are people who prefer VO too. There are even people who don't even want NPCs VO'd. I don't think it's Bioware ignoring their fanbase by making these decisions. The opposite. A lot of people wanted/want VO.

Modifié par Felfenix, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:09 .

[Anathemic]

Felfenix wrote...

I think it's a matter of preference. I felt like the wheel was very fluid, naturally, and unintrusive. I felt very removed from the story/conversation when I'd go to the letterbox list, as if I was reading one of those old choose your adventure books, and it all stopped and asked me to turn to page X or page X. It felt very much like a system, in a game, that could be exploited and buggy. Again, personal preference, and different people perceive and react to different things differently.

As for VO, Hawke, etc. I like Dragon Age, the lore, the setting, the gameplay. I also like the voice acting and iconic presence of Mass Effect's main character. You can't just say "Go play Mass Effect." because it's a totally different kind of game in a lot of ways, not just because ME has VO and DAO doesn't. I don't see as much being lost by adding VO as many people assume just because of Mass Effect. I welcome the change, hoped for it even, and am interested in seeing how it turns out. True, there are people who prefer no VO, but there are people who prefer VO too. There are even people who don't even want NPCs VO'd. I don't think it's Bioware ignoring their fanbase by making these decisions. The opposite. A lot of people wanted/want VO.

True it is a matter of preference, but still, DA:O is one of the games that didn't have VO, and was well-recieved, the modern games of BioWare are Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age: Origins, and soon to be SW:TOR. SWTOR, and the ME's are all VO'ed and now DA2 is going to be VO, it seems BioWare is just going mainstream and forgetting about us fans who enjoy their games with no VO, people who like VO get 2 main franchsies, now with DA2 soon to be alll of them.

[AlanC9]

Yep. People who don't like VO are in the same boat as the people who didn't like 3D.

[Dick Delaware]

I hate the argument that x feature is or is not more immersive. Because inevitably you have one side saying that x feature is immersive, and the other side asserting it's not. It's arguing in circles. Stick to the facts and leave vague words like "immersion" out of it because it's really subjective. It's like saying that I like a certain picture more than another because it's "prettier" than the other picture. It doesn't really convey why that picture is better, it just muddles things and poisons potential discourse.

[Anathemic]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yep. People who don't like VO are in the same boat as the people who didn't like 3D.

I still don'tl ike 3D<_<

[Anathemic]

Dick Delaware wrote...

I hate the argument that x feature is or is not more immersive. Because inevitably you have one side saying that x feature is immersive, and the other side asserting it's not. It's arguing in circles. Stick to the facts and leave vague words like "immersion" out of it because it's really subjective. It's like saying that I like a certain picture more than another because it's "prettier" than the other picture. It doesn't really convey why that picture is better, it just muddles things and poisons potential discourse.

To put it simply, one side wants another product to be the same as other products, while the other wants the same product to be unique and different from each other.

VO is being done for the ME series and SW:TOR and now soon to be the DA series too, it is really a dissapointment for us who feel no-VO is more immersive than VO. True it is all entitled to our opinion, but people like me find ourselves being pushed back and letting the mainstream features take over the ones we really love.

[Felfenix]

Anathemic wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

I think it's a matter of preference. I felt like the wheel was very fluid, naturally, and unintrusive. I felt very removed from the story/conversation when I'd go to the letterbox list, as if I was reading one of those old choose your adventure books, and it all stopped and asked me to turn to page X or page X. It felt very much like a system, in a game, that could be exploited and buggy. Again, personal preference, and different people perceive and react to different things differently.

As for VO, Hawke, etc. I like Dragon Age, the lore, the setting, the gameplay. I also like the voice acting and iconic presence of Mass Effect's main character. You can't just say "Go play Mass Effect." because it's a totally different kind of game in a lot of ways, not just because ME has VO and DAO doesn't. I don't see as much being lost by adding VO as many people assume just because of Mass Effect. I welcome the change, hoped for it even, and am interested in seeing how it turns out. True, there are people who prefer no VO, but there are people who prefer VO too. There are even people who don't even want NPCs VO'd. I don't think it's Bioware ignoring their fanbase by making these decisions. The opposite. A lot of people wanted/want VO.

True it is a matter of preference, but still, DA:O is one of the games that didn't have VO, and was well-recieved, the modern games of BioWare are Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age: Origins, and soon to be SW:TOR. SWTOR, and the ME's are all VO'ed and now DA2 is going to be VO, it seems BioWare is just going mainstream and forgetting about us fans who enjoy their games with no VO, people who like VO get 2 main franchsies, now with DA2 soon to be alll of them.

They're only adding VO to the main character. They already had VO with NPCs. There are people who don't even want NPCs VO'd, and people who long for the days of all text no graphics RPGs, in all seriousness, claiming themselves to be the "true, oldschool" fans, and people even like you being the newschool mainstream. There will always be change and progress going forward, and not everyone will always like it, but giving things a chance, giving feedback on how to make new elements work instead of scrapping them, and willingness to compromise can go a long way. People are claiming the game is being rushed because there is voice-acting, but adding voice acting adds a lot more work and time than simply having none at all. The fact the game is coming out so soon, and having voice acting, shows that I think there will be fewer changes than people expect, since they've gotta be using the same engine or whatever, instead of building a new one like the ME devs did going from ME1 to ME2.

Anathemic wrote...

Dick Delaware wrote...

I
hate the argument that x feature is or is not more immersive. Because
inevitably you have one side saying that x feature is immersive, and
the other side asserting it's not. It's arguing in circles. Stick to
the facts and leave vague words like "immersion" out of it because it's
really subjective. It's like saying that I like a certain picture more
than another because it's "prettier" than the other picture. It doesn't
really convey why that picture is better, it just muddles things and
poisons potential discourse.

To put it simply, one side
wants another product to be the same as other products, while the other
wants the same product to be unique and different from each other.

VO
is being done for the ME series and SW:TOR and now soon to be the
DA series too, it is really a dissapointment for us who feel no-VO is
more immersive than VO. True it is all entitled to our opinion, but
people like me find ourselves being pushed back and letting the
mainstream features take over the ones we really love.

There are bigger differences between the ME series and a SW MMO, and DAO than just voice-acting.

Modifié par Felfenix, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:23 .

[element eater]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yep. People who don't like VO are in the same boat as the people who didn't like 3D.

thats unfair VO is fine and im all for it but in RPGS especialy it will always limit the players freedom to form there own character.  Regardless of player choice your voice will always define your character as well as limit the responses unless it gets to a point were multiple full VO's are carried out this will always be the case you will never get to create a character that is completely your own if your character has a predetermined voice, which to many RPG fans is a bad thing.  

[Leafs43]

Most of the proposed changes are simply vanity. Only someone who has an unhealthy obsession with DAO cries over these.





You were predestined in DAO to be a Warden. DA2 is no different.

[javierabegazo]

Very nice OP.

two notes:

1. No picture spam please

2. Ugh, I hate 3D anything

[alickar]

but i like pictures ;/

[RunCDFirst]

I don't like the wheel. I didn't like it in ME, I didn't like it in ME2 and I didn't like it in AP. In my opinion, there is no way to implement the wheel without overcoming its negatives which just aren't worth all the positives of that dialogue system.

I feel, as a design element, it runs counter to the goals of an RPG game.

Aside from that, I'm sure everything else will be fine. Hawke isn't a defined character, just a defined origin which is how pretty much every other RPG has been before DA:O.

[Anathemic]

Felfenix wrote...

They're only adding VO to the main character. They already had VO with NPCs. There are people who don't even want NPCs VO'd, and people who long for the days of all text no graphics RPGs, in all seriousness, claiming themselves to be the "true, oldschool" fans, and people even like you being the newschool mainstream. There will always be change and progress going forward, and not everyone will always like it, but giving things a chance, giving feedback on how to make new elements work instead of scrapping them, and willingness to compromise can go a long way. People are claiming the game is being rushed because there is voice-acting, but adding voice acting adds a lot more work and time than simply having none at all. The fact the game is coming out so soon, and having voice acting, shows that I think there will be fewer changes than people expect, since they've gotta be using the same engine or whatever, instead of building a new one like the ME devs did going from ME1 to ME2.

I don't claim the game is being rushed, I claim the game is straying away as worthy successor to DA:O. Why start off a franchise with no VO to making it become fully VO'ed? When DA:O was realeased, I, and other people, loved it because it was one of the few games that brought the 'old-school' features back and we hoped it would stay like that. But instead with DA2 it seems that DA:O was a one-time thing and not only this game but other games will now go with the mainstream features of full-VO, modernized combat system, etc.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

OP's post pretty much sums up my perspective on those issues.

[Anathemic]

Leafs43 wrote...

Most of the proposed changes are simply vanity. Only someone who has an unhealthy obsession with DAO cries over these.


You were predestined in DAO to be a Warden. DA2 is no different.

Sounds more of an insult, but even so, we as fans have a right to worry and debate over issues that matter to us. There's no need for a put-down.

[Anathemic]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I don't like the wheel. I didn't like it in ME, I didn't like it in ME2 and I didn't like it in AP. In my opinion, there is no way to implement the wheel without overcoming its negatives which just aren't worth all the positives of that dialogue system.
I feel, as a design element, it runs counter to the goals of an RPG game.
Aside from that, I'm sure everything else will be fine. Hawke isn't a defined character, just a defined origin which is how pretty much every other RPG has been before DA:O.

It seems Hawke is going to be a defined character, the VO, the restriction to human, the dialogue wheel system..

[Abriael_CG]

The dialogue wheel system is something i resent quite a lot.. I will resent it even more if it becomes like Mass effect: "press up for good, press down for bad, center for stupid"
It removes any need to think and in the end turns the game in an on-rails experience.

The same resentment comes for the inability to chose the character's race.

in the end I feel that Bioware is turning Dragon Age 2 into a Mass Effect 2 clone, just set in a fantasy world.

It seems an extremely silly choice, given that Dragon Age was a quite unique experience in nowadays' market. Why making it more similar to another game, and as such less unique?

To the ones that continue to spam "don't fear change": "change" isn't the matter. The loss of uniqueness that seems to be going towards a dumbed down experience is the problem.

The main advertising point of Dragon Age was that it was supposed to be the "heir" to the Baldur's Gate series. That's why many of us are here.
We ("we" as in the ones that are here ti play the heir to baldur's gate) aren't here to see the heir of Mass Effect 2.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 11 juillet 2010 - 12:07 .

[schalafi]

Mary Kirby from Bioware said about the dialogue wheel in DA2:

In ME1's dialogue editor, they could actually link multiple paraphrases to a single voiced line. (And they did.) Since then, we've never put that functionality into the tools again. The rule on SWTOR, for instance was that not only did every player line have to have unique writing, you should at least get one to two lines of real response to the choice from the NPC before funneling back to the point of the conversation.

IN DA2, we have an icon that appears inside the wheel that tells you the intent of the paraphrase. "Gruff, sarcastic, flirty, extortionist" etc.

That might  help in deciding your answers on the wheel. At least you have choices on what attitude you can take in your response.

Modifié par schalafi, 11 juillet 2010 - 12:09 .