76 réponses à ce sujet

[RazorrX]

Hubb- wrote...

Alright Razor, perhaps we are talking about two different things here. I was referring to Flemeth and not the Arch demon in my post.

Ahhh.

Yeah I was saying that Flemeth/Morrigan is a situation that forshadows the Archdemon/Warden bond.  Flemeth NEEDS it to be her bloodline to take over just as the Archdemon NEEDS the taint.

I conjecture that she and Morrigan share a soul so that in the take over the two souls do not cancel.  And the question you get when you kill her (flemeth) of is she really dead.  She COULD possess a child, perhaps her curse keeps her alive in a ghost form long enough to find one.  You are told tales of how she hunted down her 'bad' daughters.  Perhaps those are the ones who fled before.

[Garagnoir]

So do you have the feeling that Morrigan has plans to do the Flemeth thing with 'your' child? If you decided to give her the child of course.



Seems pretty likely to me, but if the child is as powerful as I think it will be I think she'll be in for a surprise. Hopefully they'll build this into a DLC module rather than DA:O 2.

[RazorrX]

I think that Morrigan/flemeth thought to use the child somehow.



Perhaps as Flemeth takes over her daughter she gains its power. Thus if she could take over the child she could gain the power of an old god/arch demon.



Or perhaps just by it being inside her she would gain more power, etc.



At the very least she would be mommy to the most powerful thing around.

[Celevra]

Flemeth isnet Morrigan.... Atleast not yet. Since Morrigan wasent near Flemeth when you slew her, she was unable to take on Morrigans body. Although it hints that Flemeth will come back from the fade to claim Morrigans body in the future. But thats why you got the second grimware for Morrigan to study, to defend herself against a future attack from Flemeth.

[Vilegrim]

not the same person, Flemeth was moulding Morrigan to be the same as her, personality wise, but, if you get high standing with Morrigan a side of her personality that Flemeth simply doesn't and coouldn't have surfaces, Morrigan feels 'young', cynical, hard but under that still a youngish adult, still finding out who she is, and in a way niave about the world, she has watched the world from afar not been a part of it, and that starts to show.

[Dauphin2]

asaiasai wrote...

2) No female to female option for romance with Morrigan.

What!?!

I guess that explains why I have had no success with this.   God now I have to make a freakin' male character just for this...

I mean if anyone was inclined to be a lesbian, it would be Morrigan. She absolutely hates men.

Modifié par Dauphin2, 10 novembre 2009 - 09:18 .

[Meeporized]

I actually thought the topic meant " Flemeth is actually Morrigan and vice versa " but after reading ....well im not so sure

btt:

I mean you think the whole time this old Hag is the real evil evil Flemeth and this poor "child" morrigan is just her next body (based upon the things you hear ingame).

Wouldnt it be wiser to pretend it to be like that?

As a normal paranoid person id say that i have to take pecautions for "the worst case scenario" wich could be:
Eventually someone will come stronger and wiser as i am and tries to kill me (well it doesnt have to be "kill me" it can also be that someone would try to "use" me and then ditch me:) its just an example).

At least thats what i would do in this case, to pretend that i am the poor soul here :innocent:

Sidenote: Both are shapeshifter what keeps "Morrigan" from shaping into a dragon? Right! Only the skilltree of her Char and if she could do it wouldnt it be "VERY" obvious shes much more stronger than we all think? I mean come on .... a char who can change into some ubar dragon and controlled by you?? IMBA  . So better stick to the ugly spider, funny looking bear or the ugly flies.


OR.... well you know im Paranoid i could be totally wrong

Edit:
Totally forgot, the real flemeth is VERY OLD (meaning a lot of knowledge) so maybe she sensed that theres much more to you than just beeing (NOT !!!) a grey warden. Since your not a full fledged grey warden when you meet her the first time and already thought of a real tricky plan? 

Modifié par Meeporized, 18 novembre 2009 - 08:52 .

[Mage Dan]

You know what I would do with a million sovereign? Flemeth and Morrigan at the same time. True story.

[Raymond of Toulouse]

Einhorn is Finkle. Finkle is Einhorn. Oh, my god! Einhorn is a man!

[Foxd1e]

RazorrX wrote...
Flemeth possesses her child when she dies (or right before) and is reborn. While she never fully dies, it is easier for her to be reborn via her own bloodline. She mates and produces a child who grows up beside her, sharing a life force. When she needs to be reborn she just takes over. Easy to do. IF she is killed and her child is not near, she will eventually possess someone nearby, perhaps an unborn child so that she can destroy its life force and thus gain a new body, to begin again (Hunting down the wayward 'daughter' to reclaim that portion of her soul.)

Then later you find out that as a warden it has to be you to kill the archdemon as if anyone else did then its soul would jump to the nearest darkspawn, only to be reborn as the archdemon again. But since you now have the taint in you, and are a hybrid, it will jump to you (taint that it needs) and since you have a soul already, both are cancelled, thus both die. This is why Morrigan comes to you with the plan. The baby is how flemeth lives if her daughter dies/flees before she can be taken over. Thus it would work with you.

A pity you seemed to be totally getting it until the last sentence or two, oh well.

[stoicfaux]

asaiasai wrote...

3)The Grimware says that Flemeth steals the bodies of her daughters.
Does the Grimware say that? How do you know you can not read it, it is a gift and so you are reliant on Flemeth/Morrigan telling you that is what it says.

I think you're thinking too hard about it.  Morrigan says that Flemeth is an abomination.  Flemeth made a deal with a demon to extend her life.  However, Flemeth retained her own will and personalility (or blended with the demon.)  So you could argue that Flemeth takes over her child in much the same way that a demon possess a body.

There's no evidence to support the idea that Flemeth is Morrigan.

[Alneverus]

Reiella wrote...

s/Grimware/Grimoire
Although to be fair, I recall an option where Flemeth gives you the book and you lie to Morrigan about killing Flemeth.  Doesn't really change the suppositions, Even when you do beat down the witch, Morrigan still suspects it's not the end of her.

End Game Spoiler [Wraa]

Spoiler

What is interesting to me, is that the story of Flemeth's immortality is exactly the same of the Archdemons.

That was one of the things I quickly picked up on. Save for the notion that the Archdemon goes into a souless vessel and Flemeth must deal with the soul. In the end I suspect this is most likely of Tevinter origin from before the first Blight. Just a way to perform the act to remain immortal.

I highly doubt the two are the same. I would suspect that Morrigan's reasons for wanting the child are slightly different from Flemeth's. Mainly with the key statement that Morrigan makes about "some things are worth preserving".

[Elanareon]

You know? I think flemmeth is one of the archdemons... Because archdemons can jump to other darkspawns body when they die. But flemmeth isnt darkspaawn, she is human thus giving her the ability to jump to other human's body! yeah yeah? It's more likely that flemmeth found the Old God body before the darkspawn and it awoke! Then took flemmeth's body! yeah yeah?

[Mylista]

Heres my take.



I believe tthat by the time you get to redcliff and the deal to produce a child with morrigan you are no longer dealing with the morrigan you knew. it is flemeth.



if you pay attention to the dialogue, she pitches her deal, she makes it clear that this was flemeths plan all along and the sole reason for your rescue. yet before this scene she seems compeltly ignorant as to why flemeth rescued you (think back to the grimoire dialogue). when i first saw this is sent up a red flag for that reason, i allwasy wondered why it was never mentioned before or even after she finaly aquired the grimoire.



my belief is somewhere along the way flemeth took over morrigans body and she was in the process when you were sent to kill her. maybe killing her sped it along. she seems pretty calm about the whole thing and cares little weather you take the book or are given it. i personaly think flemeth planed this all along and was anticipating your seperation from morrigan.



i mean i might be wrong but this is what i see from the whole deal with morrigan. a deal that has flemeth written all over it. she also if you romance makes love to you long before the ritual, she could ahve easily gotten the child then if it was morrigan going for it. also one last thing that struck me odd. she changed into a wolf if you refuse her. just more random wierdness that makes me believe she wasn't who she claimed to be.



excuse any spellign errors, have dislexia might have missed something.. hope this gets people thinking.

[Brass_Buckles]

Hmmm, No, I don't think that Morrigan and Flemeth are the same character, though the OP has interesting points. It just seems too unlikely.

Both Morrigan and Flemeth maintain their individual personalities throughout the game. So, I don't think that Flemeth has taken over Morrigan by that point, and because their personalities and speech patterns are distinct, they'd either have to be two separate entities or else Flemeth is an excellent actor.  I do believe that Morrigan may be lying to you (or doesn't yet know due to not reading the grimoire thoroughly yet) when she tells you that she doesn't know why Flemeth sent her with your PC.  I never got the impression that Morrigan could really be trusted--not even with my male character who's romanced her (not to +100 love yet though).

What I do think is that Flemeth is a conglomeration of the women whose bodies she has possessed. Morrigan doesn't want to be an "empty vessel waiting to be filled," or so she tells you. But, look at Wynne: she's both possessed by a spirit and her original self. I think that's how it functions (sort of) with Flemeth, with every entity she's possessed maintaining some degree of consciousness. Also remember that neither Morrigan nor Flemeth are apparently telling you the entire story. They're both hiding things.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 31 décembre 2009 - 08:11 .

[Mylista]

please play through and pay close attention to the dialogue after reciveing the black grimour.. not flemeths.. something doesn't jive and i never said they were the same person just that maybe one has been evicted and the other has taken residence.

she goes from not having a clue as to why flemeth sent her with, you to suddenly knowing full well why flemeth sent her with  you even stating that she was prepared and told about it. and having raised her daughter and shaped her its not a far strech to know her well enough to act like her. and considering you don't actualy spend that much time with her you can never get to know her on the level flemeth does.

I have played through on every origin and some several times, (i realy like this game) and firmly believe in my theory. 
this thing may be to complicated atm for us to understand without knowing more about flemeth and morrigan. but who know you could be right as well.

but i guess it will probably be revieled fully in dragon age 2 or whatever.

Modifié par Mylista, 01 janvier 2010 - 03:02 .

[tallon1982]

You might want to pay attention to the robes you get out of Flemeth's hut and read the description of them.

[GodLikeDevil]

tallon1982 wrote...

You might want to pay attention to the robes you get out of Flemeth's hut and read the description of them.

The Robes of Possession --> Maybe that was the plan all along? The Grimoire was a macguffin to facilitate the Robes being passed on to Morrigan? By wearing it she actually accelerates Flemeth's plan? Possible.

But what if you never make Morrigan wear it?

[tallon1982]

I wouldn't put it past Flemeth to have a back up plan for taking over Morrigan. I don't believe they are the same person. Flemeth is a threat to Morrigan's desire for power and she even says that she's going to learn what Flemeth refused to teach her.



The robes take down willpower -1 and are used to help take over the wearer of the robes. Granted they are best for Morrigan. If you "kill" Flemeth you're under the impression that all is good despite Morrigan's thoughts that she is really not defeated only delayed. There are some that believe the child Morrigan carries if you chose the Dark Ritual might be what Flemeth is after anyway.

[Darkened Dragon]

Pretty much what I have so far gathered from the Flemeth/Morrigan story is thus



A) Morrigan is a true daughter of Flemeth



The story of Flemeth is that she continues living through her vessels, aka daughters, by possessing them as she gets old. Hence, the daughters of Flemeth legends, how the Chasind can recognize Morrigan as a witch of the wilds, and how both Morrigan and Flemeth state that Flemeth was once young and beautiful as well as had a likeness to Morrigan.



C) Being that Morrigan is a vessel which Flemeth plans to use, that would make Morrigan viewed as something of her greatest worth. Which she stated when she "gave" Morrigan to the Wardens.



D) More experience grants Morrigan stronger powers. Which, in turn, would become a stronger host for Flemeth, hence the payment "FOR" saving their lives was taking Morrigan along.



E) Not to mention, Flemeth also has planned that Morrigan would love one of the Wardens and would bear offspring from it. One of tainted power which would become the next vessel in line once Flemeth occupies Morrigan's body. Hence, the reason why she was willing to give you the grimore freely. So Morrigan would come across the Dark Ritual and use it.Thus providing a stronger and more powerful vessel down the line.



F) Flemeth doesn't fully die after you defeat her if you chose that route. The shade/spirit combo that is Flemeth, lies in waiting for Morrigan to return to the wilds as she has always done when she gets bored of the civilized world, or need the safety of the wilds. Being that she is very used to it and understands how to survive in it, which again was something Flemeth made sure to teach Morrigan as the foremost important things in life. Since she is making sure her own survival is guaranteed and that her legend remains intact.



Now to me this is all conjecture yet, since the farthest into the storyline that I have done is three treaties; dwarves, magi, and dalish.



As to the facts I seen posted here already, since I haven't gone through the entire story yet. I believe the two souls canceling each other out is a misconception that is shown in the game. As in this is what they "believe to be true" and not necessarily what is true. Like how the world was believed to be flat at one point of our own history.



The reason for that is four things. Flemeth, Wynne, abominations, and the possessed templars you battle in the circle tower. Such beings are either a soul overpowering another, or conjoining with another in a balanced agreement or pact if you will. The later being the Flemeth and Wynne stories. At least I think Wynne is conjoined, though I have barely even had her in my party let alone really chatted with her. Yet, since the Warden's will is strong enough to survive the initial tainting, they have the strength of will needed to fend off the Archdemon's soul so that it can't possess them but not strong enough to survive the attempt.



As Flemeth did state, the evil behind this blight is more powerful than they think. If Flemeth could grasp its power herself, do you really think she wouldn't? I really wouldn't be surprised if we see Flemeth again in DA2 and who knows maybe then we will have to battle her again, or for the first time as the case may be. Only that time, she could be the arch-villain.



That would be an interesting story to play out actually, at least IMO anyway.

[PatT2]

There's something more to this than what's been mentioned here. Read the book The Stolen Throne. Maric and Loghain run into the witch. Maric has a private conversation with her and makes some sort of deal, which is never revealed. Maybe you are just part of someone else's plot?

[tallon1982]

That's why I figured it has something to do with the Dark Ritual or something close to it. Flemeth seems to be able to predict the future.

[Sledge454]

G) Morrigan tries to use Flemeth's possession spell on her tainted child to try and obtain the powers of the Old Gods when Flemeth shows up, abducts the child, and does it herself.

Modifié par Sledge454, 01 janvier 2010 - 05:16 .

[Gold Dragon]

"The more powerful the Daughter, the easier it is for Flemeth to..... Settle in." (Morrigan)



If that is true, why doesn't she try to take over a PC mage, especially a female one? After all, if they are capable of killing her....

[Darkened Dragon]

Because she wouldn't be recognized as Flemeth then .... if all of her daughters have her likeness then the legend is that she is eternal but if lets say she has a round face, red hair, and tattooed ... then her eternal being can be questioned by those that fear her and her power. ... Like many rogues do with disguises ... to look the part is to be the part as far as others see it.