296 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

errant_knight wrote...
Amp up the action, minimize the slower thoughtul parts.... Make it brighter and shinier--they'll buy it. In my opinion, EA wants DA to capture the action crowd, and that's what this is all about. Less dialogue, less acting, and god forbid someone should have to read something. Cheaper to make, too. And it doesn't matter one bit that we liked the Origins model, because there are more people that don't care about that than do.

But DA:O was overloaded with 'action'. More than 70% of the game was wandering around into encounters. The deep roads too like 2-3 hours (if not more) and were just out-and-out dungeon crawling. I wasn't doing very much thinking during the slow parts, unless you count pause-and-click gameplay.

Adding VO is adding acting, because you've now got an actor for the main character. Perhaps a trade-off with a lot of minor bit actors, but I certainly would say, less acting. In fact, isn't the complain in the first place with VO that it is acting and so stealing away your characters?

And who is reading what, aside from being reading the PC's lines if there is no VO? Everyone else has VO.

Modifié par In Exile, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:28 .

[ejoslin]

JackFace wrote...

How do you have more freedom? You get a set number of dialogue choices in both games and you get to select from their. A voice and a name doesn't make a character any more predetermined than not having one; it just becomes addressable by name.

Not quite.  Here's a romance example

When Zevran is declaring his feelings, one thing you can say to him is:

"Maybe it would be better for you if we stopped."  

By not having this voiced, this sentence can carry many meanings.  It can be cold, it can be concerned, it can be loving, it can be snide, it can be confused.  Your warden can have different feelings about this at this point.  They can be looking for an exit strategy, they can be genuinely in love and very concerned, they can be curious or clueless about what is about to happen, they can be dreading a change that is happening in the relationship.

Voiced, suddenly, this moment no longer is personal to the player. 

There is less depth to voiced character because you are watching someone else's emotions rather than putting yourself into the role.

I could come up with a lot of examples like this in both the romances and when building friendships.

Hopefully the relationships will still have depth.  That remains to be seen.

Edit: A wheel that tells you what the tone of the upcoming dialog you're about to watch is going to take will not have the depth that putting your own emotion in will have.  It can't.  Can you imagine the conversation that ends with Alistair saying, "Maker's breath, but you're beautiful.  I am a lucky man," having a voiced protagonist?  I know him responding to someone else's voice would definitely take away the heart-fluttering response that line evokes.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:38 .

[errant_knight]

In Exile wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Amp up the action, minimize the slower thoughtul parts.... Make it brighter and shinier--they'll buy it. In my opinion, EA wants DA to capture the action crowd, and that's what this is all about. Less dialogue, less acting, and god forbid someone should have to read something. Cheaper to make, too. And it doesn't matter one bit that we liked the Origins model, because there are more people that don't care about that than do.

But DA:O was overloaded with 'action'. More than 70% of the game was wandering around into encounters. The deep roads too like 2-3 hours (if not more) and were just out-and-out dungeon crawling. I wasn't doing very much thinking during the slow parts, unless you count pause-and-click gameplay.

Adding VO is adding acting, because you've now got an actor for the main character. Perhaps a trade-off with a lot of minor bit actors, but I certainly would say, less acting. In fact, isn't the complain in the first place with VO that it is acting and so stealing away your characters?

And who is reading what, aside from being reading the PC's lines if there is no VO? Everyone else has VO.

I'm not going to detail why PC voiceacting is bad for roleplay again, because your question must be rherotical. You certainly must have seen it explained multiple times by now. And the acting from the 'bit actors', as you call them, is a major part of why the world felt as detailed as it did, and why the quests felt important.

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:36 .

[-Semper-]

Sidney wrote...

Again, ME lines of dialog > BG lines of dialog.

So tell me again about those old games.

bg is a bad example. bg was just the first of it's kind and lacked at dialogues. now if i bring fallout 1/2, bg2 or planescape torment into the discussion there is little room for me and it's sequel. all these lines can't be voiced by qualified actors. so you are leaved to do a cheap synchro or reduce the amount of text.

[In Exile]

errant_knight wrote...
I'm not going to detail why PC voiceacting is bad for roleplay again, because your question must be rherotical. You certainly must have seen it explained multiple times by now. And the acting from the 'bit actors', as you call them, is a major part of why the world felt as detailed as it did, and why the quests felt important.

The role-playing has to be imagination and fan-fiction about an audio-visual medium portion? Yeah, you're right - I don't buy it.

That being said, the bit acting completely fails to characterize the world for me, because those small characters were often exposition cut-outs. Voiced guards, for example, do nothing for me. They just tell you where places are in the city. A nice touch, but they fail to add to the character of the city that, say, you get just via visual differences in architecture.

I know we won't see eye to eye on this. But it would be nice if you at least appreciate that the other side disagrees with you over what makes role-playing great and the world rich. We're not against either of these things; we just thing VO does it better, no matter how vehemetly you disagree.

[okiness]

Errrr. This implies my favorite part is self insertion. That's not it. I just love character creation. I draw and write a lot so a game that let me have an active role in writing any part made me excited. Now it's like....Fable. Gender, maybe more on the pictures of the people...but still. People keep talking for the wary side (Yes, I'm wary, not a detractor) and saying we just want to adventure for ourselves. No, that's not it- I wanted to feel like I was interactively affecting the outcomes of things. I did, the character I created changed everything. Now it's gone. But hey, they'll never take Origins from me so whatevs. They can do tons of things for my money, I don't mind buying it if it's a good game. Fat chance on getting me to pay all the money I have for DLC for DA:O if I hate it, though. Ah hell, we'll see.

[In Exile]

ejoslin wrote...
Not quite.  Here's a romance example

When Zevran is declaring his feelings, one thing you can say to him is:

"Maybe it would be better for you if we stopped."  

By not having this voiced, this sentence can carry many meanings.  It can be cold, it can be concerned, it can be loving, it can be snide, it can be confused.  Your warden can have different feelings about this at this point.  They can be looking for an exit strategy, they can be genuinely in love and very concerned, they can be curious or clueless about what is about to happen, they can be dreading a change that is happening in the relationship.

Only if you willfully force yourself to ignore what Zevran's reaction to it is. Which, ironically, has to be a generic cut-out so that you can pretend that all of the above apply.

Having every other character fixed, with fixed responses to your lines, means that they have to presuppose what the rough tone and intention of the line is. Otherwise it would be impossible for communication to take place.

Let's say Alistar says " I can't believe I didn't understand that book until you explained it to me!"

In principle, the line "That's because you're an idiot." could be taken in a few ways - including sarcastically.

But Alistair's reaction to it narrows it down. If he goes with banter, he took it as a joke, so it was delivered sacastically. If he got offended, he took it as an insult. And the thing is, if you meant it one way versus the other there is no way to say, whoops, I meant something else .

Voiced, suddenly, this moment no longer is personal to the player. 

There is less depth to voiced character because you are watching someone else's emotions rather than putting yourself into the role.

I could come up with a lot of examples like this in both the romances and when building friendships.

Hopefully the relationships will still have depth.  That remains to be seen.

Voiced, the player can't write fan-fiction about a scene in their head as it plays along. But you could never do this. The absence of VO just let you pretend you could, by going against facts in the story that weren't as visibly contradictory.

Edit: A wheel that tells you what the tone
of the upcoming dialog you're about to watch is going to take will not
have the depth that putting your own emotion in will have.  It can't.
 Can you imagine the conversation that ends with Alistair saying,
"Maker's breath, but you're beautiful.  I am a lucky man," having a
voiced protagonist?  I know him responding to someone else's voice would
definitely take away the heart-fluttering response that line evokes

Not having lines like that voiced just evoke a yawn. "Aww, Alistair told the lawn ornament he loves it.".

Modifié par In Exile, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:56 .

[In Exile]

okiness wrote...

Errrr. This implies my favorite part is self insertion. That's not it. I just love character creation. I draw and write a lot so a game that let me have an active role in writing any part made me excited. Now it's like....Fable. Gender, maybe more on the pictures of the people...but still. People keep talking for the wary side (Yes, I'm wary, not a detractor) and saying we just want to adventure for ourselves. No, that's not it- I wanted to feel like I was interactively affecting the outcomes of things. I did, the character I created changed everything. Now it's gone. But hey, they'll never take Origins from me so whatevs. They can do tons of things for my money, I don't mind buying it if it's a good game. Fat chance on getting me to pay all the money I have for DLC for DA:O if I hate it, though. Ah hell, we'll see.

Are you talking about my fan-fiction comment? I don't think fan-fiction is strongly tied to self-insertion (though some of it is). Ironically, that's usually how I play my games, and VO makes me feel like I get to do that a lot more than non-VO. To me, fan-fiction is precisely this "active role in writing".

I get your sentiment, Completely, in fact, especially about actively affecting things, because this is why I play games. But without VO, it is not my character. It is "lawn ornament" did this, and "lawn ornament" was there when voiced character made the rousing speech.

Take Awakening. That game forced you into the role of a Warden Commander. What if the characters you created did not want to be Warden's in the first place? What if they were conscripted by Duncan, hated the role, denied it at every chance, then freed themselves from the taint via the dark ritual and left the order? That is outright rejected by Awakening. No character can play Awakening and not want to be a Warden. I hated that so much. So don't tell me that VO forces you into roles. Writing forces you into roles, and VO has nothing to do with that.

[Ju13es]

Im down for an intruduction of some ME qualities to dragon age. As long as the story is great and meaningful impact on the world around you is there, im a happy camper.



That is what made dragon age so great. It didnt need flashy graphics and voice overs to make it great, it was all about a well executed story that had some flexibility to its outcomes.I dont see DA2 not having to story flexibilty being removed, just being slightly limited.



But its getting an update in graphics which is very welcome because DAO did have some horrible looking moments. I think people are jumping the gun WAY to much. Can you honestly say anything about a game so far away from being released and only days after being announced?



My opinion is that DA2 will have the spirit of the original, in a different, more experienced body (kind of like the new korn album )

[Ecael]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, there are lots of games I don't buy because, while they're packed with action, they don't have what drew me to Dragon Age--the ability to get to know your companions in a way that felt real, speaking to them where, how, and with the words you chose. I'd be willing to bet that the fans of those disliked DA for the same reasons I loved it. Amp up the action, minimize the slower thoughtul parts.... Make it brighter and shinier--they'll buy it. In my opinion, EA wants DA to capture the action crowd, and that's what this is all about. Less dialogue, less acting, and god forbid someone should have to read something. Cheaper to make, too. And it doesn't matter one bit that we liked the Origins model, because there are more people that don't care about that than do.

That's assuming that Dragon Age: Origins wasn't already brighter and shinier than most of the past RPGs.

BioWare polishes their games with lots of fully voiced dialogue, realistic graphics and cinematics and good customization.

If you were to play Mass Effect 1 immediately before playing Mass Effect 2 several times (like I have), you would have noticed that BioWare put a lot of work into doubling the amount of dialogue while also increasing the number of available model animations by about tenfold.

Even though most people don't even care about this - not the casual gamers, and not the self-proclaimed hardcore "RPG" fanatics - they do this anyway. People complain that they don't get to see their favorite squadmate/companion again and automatically assume that BioWare is appealing to a different crowd.

• I don't see anyone with banners saying "I support even more dialogue for ME3/DA2!" or
• "I support more cinematics and animations for ME3/DA2!"
• "I support even more well-written characters for ME3/DA2!"

Yet BioWare will improve greatly upon every single one of those things while everyone else asks why their main character or side characters aren't exactly as they should be and why there's more action (as if they didn't notice all the mentioned improvements).

Both casual gamers and hardcore RPG fans need to "smart up" before either of them complain about the game being "dumbed down". If you want me to start generalizing on who's in this group of people from the forums who need to smart up, then I'd list them as:

• Anyone who's ever had a signature supporting a single or set of characters for Mass Effect or Dragon Age
• Anyone who's only posted in a single or set of support threads for Mass Effect
• Anyone who's uploaded their custom made Dragon Age character to use as their avatar
• Anyone who's ever talked in length about their favorite romance or posted several pictures of them

You'll notice that's pretty much all of the forum, except for people who have troll accounts, which is self-explanatory.

As long as that's the case, the only thing getting dumbed down is this forum.

[Kalfear]

ahhh the ME2 trolls here to spred misinformation

never stops being amazing!

Look, more pretty colors (and amazing use of bolding) to try and misguide and misinform!

how creative



as for the positive and useful replies from credible posters!



I love the idea of DA: The Hawke Saga

That alone would eliminate every single complaint and worry but would also mean at some point they would have to do DA2 that carried on DA:O storyline and I think we all need to accept that storyline is dead and buried now.



Oh as for there being no alternative RPGs out there (again misdirection from the Bioware self appointed spokeperson) Deus Ex3 looks very interesting and calls itself a Action RPG. Is it more RPG or more action? I have no idea but cant be any more a let down then ME2 was. There is other products out there is the point. Just for years many of us looked to Bioware for our fix in RPGs. Maybe its time we stopped blindly supporting them (im just as guillty as everyone else on this, if not more so, I would buy Xbox and PC versions of same titles) and gave these other titles a chance!



Gotta be more receptive then cheering on 15 trolls saysing cyas egging you to leave as your disappointed over what you hear!



PS: Someone earlier said Gaider came out and specifically said this is not going to be ME2 style game. Can someone link that for me as I missed that quote (and I read alot) or is that more misdirection from the ME2 crowd posters?

[Ju13es]

ejoslin wrote...

JackFace wrote...

How do you have more freedom? You get a set number of dialogue choices in both games and you get to select from their. A voice and a name doesn't make a character any more predetermined than not having one; it just becomes addressable by name.

Not quite.  Here's a romance example

When Zevran is declaring his feelings, one thing you can say to him is:

"Maybe it would be better for you if we stopped."  

By not having this voiced, this sentence can carry many meanings.  It can be cold, it can be concerned, it can be loving, it can be snide, it can be confused.  Your warden can have different feelings about this at this point.  They can be looking for an exit strategy, they can be genuinely in love and very concerned, they can be curious or clueless about what is about to happen, they can be dreading a change that is happening in the relationship.

Voiced, suddenly, this moment no longer is personal to the player. 

There is less depth to voiced character because you are watching someone else's emotions rather than putting yourself into the role.

I could come up with a lot of examples like this in both the romances and when building friendships.

Hopefully the relationships will still have depth.  That remains to be seen.

Edit: A wheel that tells you what the tone of the upcoming dialog you're about to watch is going to take will not have the depth that putting your own emotion in will have.  It can't.  Can you imagine the conversation that ends with Alistair saying, "Maker's breath, but you're beautiful.  I am a lucky man," having a voiced protagonist?  I know him responding to someone else's voice would definitely take away the heart-fluttering response that line evokes.

Yes having no character VO allows you to read it how the words are being said and with which emotions are being used, but the person you are speakign with only has one reaction. They do not have a varied reaction to the varied ways people are reading a line of words. Since there is only one reaction, it is fitting that there will be one way of speaking.

[okiness]

In Exile wrote...

okiness wrote...

Errrr. This implies my favorite part is self insertion. That's not it. I just love character creation. I draw and write a lot so a game that let me have an active role in writing any part made me excited. Now it's like....Fable. Gender, maybe more on the pictures of the people...but still. People keep talking for the wary side (Yes, I'm wary, not a detractor) and saying we just want to adventure for ourselves. No, that's not it- I wanted to feel like I was interactively affecting the outcomes of things. I did, the character I created changed everything. Now it's gone. But hey, they'll never take Origins from me so whatevs. They can do tons of things for my money, I don't mind buying it if it's a good game. Fat chance on getting me to pay all the money I have for DLC for DA:O if I hate it, though. Ah hell, we'll see.

Are you talking about my fan-fiction comment? I don't think fan-fiction is strongly tied to self-insertion (though some of it is). Ironically, that's usually how I play my games, and VO makes me feel like I get to do that a lot more than non-VO. To me, fan-fiction is precisely this "active role in writing".

I get your sentiment, Completely, in fact, especially about actively affecting things, because this is why I play games. But without VO, it is not my character. It is "lawn ornament" did this, and "lawn ornament" was there when voiced character made the rousing speech.

Take Awakening. That game forced you into the role of a Warden Commander. What if the characters you created did not want to be Warden's in the first place? What if they were conscripted by Duncan, hated the role, denied it at every chance, then freed themselves from the taint via the dark ritual and left the order? That is outright rejected by Awakening. No character can play Awakening and not want to be a Warden. I hated that so much. So don't tell me that VO forces you into roles. Writing forces you into roles, and VO has nothing to do with that.

Which is why many of us hate Awakening. In fact I ended up writing fic just to counter this. Blregh. I think either way though voice or not I could emmerse myself, unless it's Stephenie Sheh. Then I'll just boycott this game. What gets me is this story limits me to Hawke. But If I can be evil and use the character I've already drawn and thought up in my head, Deliahn Hawke, then I will play and feel similar. It all depends on how immersive I end up feeling. Origins will be special because I played it. I mean shoot, all I did in the end was record it on Fraps and voice act for my character when I wanted to rewatch it. Not even as self insertion but because when everyone talks it's cool. I agee with someone elses points that the way Origins is, it feels special to be told by a character they love you and it's not some set voice. But that's because well, at this point I've thought up a voice in my head for my favorite PC and so if she were voiced and sounded different I wouldn't like it. But say Hawke,  a character I have not established yet, were to be voiced and could sound fun and evil...I could live with it.

Just don't take the choices, frig it. So many are gone. If I can't play as an evil conqueror of doom then I won't enjoy this.

[DragonRageGT]

Telum101 wrote...

I completely agree with alb84. From the info we've been given so far, it seems more like a separate game with the same name, rather than an actual sequel. A lot of the game was left somewhat unfinished, and I don't think it will be completed through DLCs between now and the DA2 release. Even if they do conclude the events of DA1 in this "sequel", as Hawke, I don't think it will have the same sense of immersion.

On a sort of unrelated note, I've heard that in addition to the ME style conversation wheel, there will be icons to illustrate the emotions attached to each dialogue choice. Is this confirmed? If so, I would like to say that from both angles, this really seems like an insult. I am not retarded. I am able to understand what my character is going to say, and the tone they will say that in. I don't need the game to tell me that kicking an elf in the stomach after calling his wife a **** and stealing his money is bad. I'm perfectly capable of understanding that myself.
In the more likely case that Bioware recognizes that we are able to understand basic conversations, I think that it is a sign that the dialogue choices have been 'dumbed down' a lot, which really doesn't support the arguments that this isn't becoming a Mass Effect clone. If we truly need the emotion to be outlined, then I think something is wrong. I never had any misunderstandings in Dragon Age with conversations.

I know this will be a good game, because I trust that you guys at Bioware know what you're doing, but this does not sound like Dragon Age. Please rectify that.

Maybe DA2: The Hawke Saga will be PG13 but I'd say that even 13eens are smarter than that!

[HoonDing]

Ju13es wrote...

Yes having no character VO allows you to read it how the words are being said and with which emotions are being used, but the person you are speakign with only has one reaction. They do not have a varied reaction to the varied ways people are reading a line of words. Since there is only one reaction, it is fitting that there will be one way of speaking.

That's the root of the problem some people have: with a voiced protagonist, they will be unable to 'become' the character and project themselves into the game. Basically, they are LARPing in a medium that is not intended for LARPing.

[Ecael]

Kalfear wrote...

ahhh the ME2 trolls here to spred misinformation
never stops being amazing!
Look, more pretty colors (and amazing use of bolding) to try and misguide and misinform!
how creative

as for the positive and useful replies from credible posters!

So because someone disagrees with you after you don't get what you want, your plug your ears and run around saying "I can't hear you!"?

Are you going to start jumping up and down and stomping the ground if more information on Dragon Age 2 isn't what you wanted?

Oh as for there being no alternative RPGs out there (again misdirection from the Bioware self appointed spokeperson) Deus Ex3 looks very interesting and calls itself a Action RPG. Is it more RPG or more action? I have no idea but cant be any more a let down then ME2 was. There is other products out there is the point. Just for years many of us looked to Bioware for our fix in RPGs. Maybe its time we stopped blindly supporting them (im just as guillty as everyone else on this, if not more so, I would buy Xbox and PC versions of same titles) and gave these other titles a chance!

Have you checked the Deus Ex forums lately?

After seeing the gameplay leak are you buying?

A third of the forum is already forecasting the doom of Deus Ex 3 even though it's not coming out until next year.

Sound familiar?

"We see Deus Ex: Human Revolution as a reboot of the franchise, basically." ~Dugas

People getting nervous because the franchise isn't going to be entirely continuous.

Sound familiar?

Target Audience of Deus Ex 3

People insulting the potential Deus Ex 3 game for being dumbed down.

Sound familiar?

This one is a classic:

http://forums.eidosg...d.php?p=1429785

I seem to be one of the only true agnostics left around here; in the last three weeks, this site has gone from a place I enjoyed visiting to a place I'm considering deserting altogether. The cool topics of discussion have degenerated into a p*ssing match, largely started by those who are "certain" that DX:HR will be terrible. These people should play the lottery with their new-found psychic powers.

Sound familiar?

Keep threatening BioWare that you'll leave for other games. I'm sure you'll enjoy whining on the other forums too.

Modifié par Ecael, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:25 .

[ejoslin]

virumor wrote...

Ju13es wrote...

Yes having no character VO allows you to read it how the words are being said and with which emotions are being used, but the person you are speakign with only has one reaction. They do not have a varied reaction to the varied ways people are reading a line of words. Since there is only one reaction, it is fitting that there will be one way of speaking.

That's the root of the problem some people have: with a voiced protagonist, they will be unable to 'become' the character and project themselves into the game. Basically, they are LARPing in a medium that is not intended for LARPing.

That's too simplistic, and not accurate.  You could get into the character in a way you can't with a voiced character -- saying that is "wrong" or "not intended" is silly; it works if the protagonist isn't voiced if the writing is good.  And a lot of people liked dragon age for that reason. 

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Edit: A wheel that tells you what the tone
of the upcoming dialog you're about to watch is going to take will not
have the depth that putting your own emotion in will have.  It can't.
 Can you imagine the conversation that ends with Alistair saying,
"Maker's breath, but you're beautiful.  I am a lucky man," having a
voiced protagonist?  I know him responding to someone else's voice would
definitely take away the heart-fluttering response that line evokes

Not having lines like that voiced just evoke a yawn. "Aww, Alistair told the lawn ornament he loves it.".

Wherein you acknowledge that you have no clue what we are talking about.  Nor, I suspect, what the appeal of DAO even is.  Your avatar is telling here.

Have you even played DAO??

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:29 .

[Sidney]

Telum101 wrote...

A lot of the game was left somewhat unfinished, and I don't think it will be completed through DLCs between now and the DA2 release.

I still think "finishing" the game is going to be hard because there are so many ways to finish the game - not to mention that some folks are finished, they're dead.  I'm also not sure what closure is. 

..and check me if I'm wrong/you have other thoughts. Dog, Sten, Wynne, Shale are all pretty well done. I mean I might like to see more of each but their "story" seems finished to me. Shale might have more but she knows her history and that was sort of the point of her "journey". Those people seem closed, I feel "complete"

If Alistair is king well that's pretty much closed - we know what he's up to. If he's a wandering drunk well there's a story as your warden tries to redeem him and your friendship after choosing Anora but, from a business standpoint of units to sell, how many people left him in that condition?

Oghren might have another story but since they went and muddied him up by throwing him into DAA that gets tougher to do plus he's really not all that compelling.

Zev offers to continue with you so if you let him live, and I'd assume that was the majority viewpoint even if I did whack him in my first game, there are other adventures for he and you and the whole escape ffrom the Crows could go on but can that ever clse w/o some bloodbath that wipes out all the crows?

Leli has options because no matter her ending there are possiblities but since they went and used her as a "prequel" would they go overkill and sequel her up?

That leaves the 800 kvs gorilla of Morri where there would be a huge amount of interest but there's a lot of work to do to have the "your child" vs "Allistair's child" logic not to mention the "no child" logic although the ending might imply she found a way even without your consent - although that miffs me.

I also think the DAA being so close temporally to DAO muddies the waters even more.

I'd love to end it but I think they've sort of hung themselves out to dry.

[HoonDing]

ejoslin wrote...

That's too simplistic, and not accurate.  You could get into the character in a way you can't with a voiced character -- saying that is "wrong" or "not intended" is silly; it works if the protagonist isn't voiced if the writing is good.  And a lot of people liked dragon age for that reason. 

But it's a computer game, not a PnP session. Reading one's DA:O character's lines in a certain imagined tone doesn't lead to anywhere, since as mentioned before one will always be lead to the story conclusion that the writers have already set in stone. It's not as if there's a DM present that can change the direction of the game on the fly.

[Addai]

virumor wrote...

Ju13es wrote...

Yes having no character VO allows you to read it how the words are being said and with which emotions are being used, but the person you are speakign with only has one reaction. They do not have a varied reaction to the varied ways people are reading a line of words. Since there is only one reaction, it is fitting that there will be one way of speaking.

That's the root of the problem some people have: with a voiced protagonist, they will be unable to 'become' the character and project themselves into the game. Basically, they are LARPing in a medium that is not intended for LARPing.

I don't know what LARP is, but roleplay is allowing your character to be fully realized as you want him/her to be.  Yes, there is a certain amount of immersion.  That's what makes it a game versus a movie.  This is a bad thing?

Funny, I didn't realize that I was playing DAO in a manner in which it was never intended!  Some 500 hours of gameplay and I totally missed it.  Good thing the forums exist to enlighten me.

[Addai]

virumor wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

That's too simplistic, and not accurate.  You could get into the character in a way you can't with a voiced character -- saying that is "wrong" or "not intended" is silly; it works if the protagonist isn't voiced if the writing is good.  And a lot of people liked dragon age for that reason. 

But it's a computer game, not a PnP session. Reading one's DA:O character's lines in a certain imagined tone doesn't lead to anywhere, since as mentioned before one will always be lead to the story conclusion that the writers have already set in stone. It's not as if there's a DM present that can change the direction of the game on the fly.

You are still in some control over how you imagine your character reacting.  There are two sides to every conversation.  On the PC side, we are limited by the writers, but now we're also going to be limited by a voice actor's interpretation.  The player is even further removed from shaping the character.

[ejoslin]

virumor wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

That's too simplistic, and not accurate.  You could get into the character in a way you can't with a voiced character -- saying that is "wrong" or "not intended" is silly; it works if the protagonist isn't voiced if the writing is good.  And a lot of people liked dragon age for that reason. 

But it's a computer game, not a PnP session. Reading one's DA:O character's lines in a certain imagined tone doesn't lead to anywhere, since as mentioned before one will always be lead to the story conclusion that the writers have already set in stone. It's not as if there's a DM present that can change the direction of the game on the fly.

That has nothing to do with immersion though, or role playing the character.  Or the illusion of being an influence.  And I find it very hard to believe that being able to get into the warden in an RP way was not what the writers intended.

Sure there are limits to what can be done in a computer game.  That is what made DAO so spectacular.  The actual story itself, save the world from the evil monsters, is not original in computer games.  But the way the game allowed you to actually care for your characters...  That was amazing writing, and amazing story telling.

I liken it to the difference between reading a book and watching a movie. When I read a book, I can put myself into it; when I watch a movie, I'm an observer.

Edit: I think part of the problem is some people cannot put themselves into their character -- they do not get what people like me are saying.  I can't complain about my character being expressionless because for the most part, during interactions, I was just seeing the back of her head anyway.  The focus was almost always on the NPC, not the warden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:42 .

[In Exile]

ejoslin wrote...

That's too simplistic, and not accurate.  You could get into the character in a way you can't with a voiced character -- saying that is "wrong" or "not intended" is silly; it works if the protagonist isn't voiced if the writing is good.  And a lot of people liked dragon age for that reason. 

I disagree entirely. I cannot get into a non-voiced character, but can get into a voiced character, in a totally different way. It's the difference between having a character as part of the world, and a lawn ornament.

[Brockololly]

For a good overview of the whole Silent vs. Voiced PC debate, people should really read this excellent article: http://soundspam.blo...ge-origins.html

Its from an audio designer at Media Molecule and he makes a lot of interesting points...