296 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

In Exile wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

That's too simplistic, and not accurate.  You could get into the character in a way you can't with a voiced character -- saying that is "wrong" or "not intended" is silly; it works if the protagonist isn't voiced if the writing is good.  And a lot of people liked dragon age for that reason. 

I disagree entirely. I cannot get into a non-voiced character, but can get into a voiced character, in a totally different way. It's the difference between having a character as part of the world, and a lawn ornament.

And there are a lot of games that give you that option.  This is how I see this:

I LOVE ME2.  I want MOAR ME2.  YAY, they're changing the mechanics of Dragon Age to be more like ME2! This is a great thing!  Who cares about the people who LIKED the mechanics of Dragon Age?  I want me MOAR like ME2!

Frustrating, seriously.

Edit: Forgot to add the part: Quit whining, people who like the 1st person narrative more.  *I* like the 3rd person better, so STFU because this is GOOD news.   

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:51 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Wherein you acknowledge that you have no clue what we are talking about.  Nor, I suspect, what the appeal of DAO even is.  Your avatar is telling here.

Have you even played DAO??

Not only did I play DA:O, but I received an invitation to the DA:O tournament in England, because I was a major follower of it since it was declared, under the name Virgil Romanus on the old DA:O forums. So, in short, you have no idea what you're talking about.

That being said, I've beaten DA:O several times, including the abortion that is Awakening. I hate the way you play games. I refuse to upload a character creation tool build because I strongly dislike having EA upload things off my computer; I keep things firewalled for a reason.

So, again, you can think lawn-ornament gives you ownership. By all means. But I don't.

[In Exile]

double post

Modifié par In Exile, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:51 .

[Rubbish Hero]

Console industry now, pc gaming doomed.
All pc franchises metaphorically raped and forced to wear streamlined red dress in console brother.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:52 .

[Dwarf-Thane]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Wherein you acknowledge that you have no clue what we are talking about.  Nor, I suspect, what the appeal of DAO even is.  Your avatar is telling here.

Have you even played DAO??

Not only did I play DA:O, but I received an invitation to the DA:O tournament in England, because I was a major follower of it since it was declared, under the name Virgil Romanus on the old DA:O forums. So, in short, you have no idea what you're talking about.

That being said, I've beaten DA:O several times, including the abortion that is Awakening. I hate the way you play games. I refuse to upload a character creation tool build because I strongly dislike having EA upload things off my computer; I keep things firewalled for a reason.

So, again, you can think lawn-ornament gives you ownership. By all means. But I don't.

I was going to disagree, but I was so impressed by your history with DA:O and the English tournament invite, that I decided to bow to your obviously superior opinion on the matter.

MOAR ME2 in teh Dragon Age!!!1!11!

[In Exile]

ejoslin wrote...

And there are a lot of games that give you that option. 

There are two games that give you that let you do this: ME and ME2.

Alpha Protocol does not allow for character customization, and neither does the Witcher.

... And that's it. Those are all the games that give you this option.

On the other hand, you have, DA:O/DA:A; BG1/BG2; KoTOR1/KOTOR2; IWD1/IWD2; NWN1/NWN2. And that's just by Bioware. We can add Fallout1/Fallout2 to this. And maybe more.

So don't pretend the decade of the sort of video-games you like somehow trumps the two single series entries in the type of game I like.

This is how I see this:

I LOVE ME2.  I want MOAR ME2.  YAY, they're changing the mechanics of Dragon Age to be more like ME2! This is a great thing!  Who cares about the people who LIKED the mechanics of Dragon Age?  I want me MOAR like ME2!

Frustrating, seriously.

Edit: Forgot to add the part: Quit whining, people who like the 1st person narrative more.  *I* like the 3rd person better, so STFU because this is GOOD news.   

Aww, aren't you cute and entitled. I get a third entry into a type of game I like. You can play the decade worth of games you like.

[Rubbish Hero]

Speaking of uploads, person with gameinformer article claim Dragon Age can have saved used across multiple systems. Presumably this means cloud computing? Or Ubisoft style DRM?

[Anathemic]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Wherein you acknowledge that you have no clue what we are talking about.  Nor, I suspect, what the appeal of DAO even is.  Your avatar is telling here.

Have you even played DAO??

Not only did I play DA:O, but I received an invitation to the DA:O tournament in England, because I was a major follower of it since it was declared, under the name Virgil Romanus on the old DA:O forums. So, in short, you have no idea what you're talking about.

That being said, I've beaten DA:O several times, including the abortion that is Awakening. I hate the way you play games. I refuse to upload a character creation tool build because I strongly dislike having EA upload things off my computer; I keep things firewalled for a reason.

So, again, you can think lawn-ornament gives you ownership. By all means. But I don't.

Bolded paragraph reeks of 'no point'

[tbsking]

As far as VO versus no voice goes: one is better for the role-playing genre. If Hawke is voiced, then he will have a personality regardless of what we want him to be like. If you choose one dialogue option over the other, he will have a personality.



In DAO you are given a lot of freedom to imagine how your character is reacting in relation to the surroundings. Of course the characters have a predetermined response, but the removal of a voice for your protagonist allows you to imagine your own character's response.



If I call Alistair and idiot in a joking fashion, and he gets offended, well, it's sorta because his character is established to be sensitive about insults to his intelligence.



If I tell Zevran "Maybe we should end this" and he reacts in a negative manner, that's because he wants me to say something else.



The list goes on. These are all ways we can role-play. That is the entire point of a role-playing game. That is what made DAO good.

[In Exile]

Dwarf-Thane wrote...

I was going to disagree, but I was so impressed by your history with DA:O and the English tournament invite, that I decided to bow to your obviously superior opinion on the matter.

MOAR ME2 in teh Dragon Age!!!1!11!

Having been correctly characterized as a drooling incompetent by you, I must bow to your superior wisdom. You are right: it is impossible for there to be any way other than the one specific way you play games to role-play. Everyone else is not only wrong, but stupid. I now admit what an incontinent idiot I am, and only wish Bioware will ship a person with their game that can play the game for me, so I don't have to worry if I press the "play the game" buttom on my keyboard or just try to eat it.

[ejoslin]

In Exile wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And there are a lot of games that give you that option. 

There are two games that give you that let you do this: ME and ME2.

Alpha Protocol does not allow for character customization, and neither does the Witcher.

... And that's it. Those are all the games that give you this option.

On the other hand, you have, DA:O/DA:A; BG1/BG2; KoTOR1/KOTOR2; IWD1/IWD2; NWN1/NWN2. And that's just by Bioware. We can add Fallout1/Fallout2 to this. And maybe more.

So don't pretend the decade of the sort of video-games you like somehow trumps the two single series entries in the type of game I like.

This is how I see this:

I LOVE ME2.  I want MOAR ME2.  YAY, they're changing the mechanics of Dragon Age to be more like ME2! This is a great thing!  Who cares about the people who LIKED the mechanics of Dragon Age?  I want me MOAR like ME2!

Frustrating, seriously.

Edit: Forgot to add the part: Quit whining, people who like the 1st person narrative more.  *I* like the 3rd person better, so STFU because this is GOOD news.   

Aww, aren't you cute and entitled. I get a third entry into a type of game I like. You can play the decade worth of games you like.

No, not cute and entitled, but at least you're honest enough to confirm that IS what is going on.

Edit: You want DA2 to be like ME2.  I get that. Why don't you get that people who loved DA want more of DA.  This would be like ME3 having a silent protagonist and people who love DA telling people who love ME to quit whining.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:06 .

[In Exile]

Anathemic wrote...

Bolded paragraph reeks of 'no point'

I was accused of not getting the appeal of DA:O. I've followed that game for 5 years. Why would I do that if it didn't appeal to me? It just seems incomprehensible to you that maybe I like it for different reasons. Shocking, I know, that I think things you hate could improve the game. Abhorent, really. I should go back to coloring with crayons as I deserve, no?

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Wherein you acknowledge that you have no clue what we are talking about.  Nor, I suspect, what the appeal of DAO even is.  Your avatar is telling here.

Have you even played DAO??

Not only did I play DA:O, but I received an invitation to the DA:O tournament in England, because I was a major follower of it since it was declared, under the name Virgil Romanus on the old DA:O forums. So, in short, you have no idea what you're talking about.

That being said, I've beaten DA:O several times, including the abortion that is Awakening. I hate the way you play games. I refuse to upload a character creation tool build because I strongly dislike having EA upload things off my computer; I keep things firewalled for a reason.

So, again, you can think lawn-ornament gives you ownership. By all means. But I don't.

Fair enough.  It is obvious, however, that you have no idea "how I play games," since you call it lawn ornament playing.  I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean, but let's just say I have a few more characters on you and am still playing the game.  In fact, I'm more active with my latest character- she's probably the 12th full pt I've done- whereas you've moved on.

DAO was something unique.  I had hoped it would continue to be.  Alas not.

[Anathemic]

In Exile wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Bolded paragraph reeks of 'no point'

I was accused of not getting the appeal of DA:O. I've followed that game for 5 years. Why would I do that if it didn't appeal to me? It just seems incomprehensible to you that maybe I like it for different reasons. Shocking, I know, that I think things you hate could improve the game. Abhorent, really. I should go back to coloring with crayons as I deserve, no?

Well instead of stating that you got some invitation to whatever tournament (What's the point of a DA:O tournament? What's the competition?) you could've explainedi n the manner of what you experienced the DA:O a basic knowledge of the story perhaps? Or knowledge of combat system, or maybe a description of the dialogue system? These things are more acceptable then just blantantly stating that you got an invitation to a tournament which is irrelevant to the discussion.

[In Exile]

ejoslin wrote...

No, not cute and entitled, but at least you're honest enough to confirm that IS what is going on.

Edit: You want DA2 to be like ME3.  I get that. Why don't you get that people who loved DA want more of DA.  This would be like ME3 having a silent protagonist and people who love DA telling people who love ME to quit whining.

But I would be fine with that. It is not the kind of game I like as much; I would think it is a step backward. But I would play it, and be excited about it, just like I was over DA:O. 

I don't want DA2 to be like ME2 or ME1. I don't want a constant re-tread of Shepard. I just want a voiced protagonist. That makes me feel closer to the character, makes me feel as if I have ownership over the character, and as if I am closer to the story. I think VO is superior for role-playing. I get that not everyone agrees with me. But appreciate that.

I don't happen to like a shooter versus a strategic isometric RPG. I like that type of game far more. But I find the VO is lacking.

So now Bioware is telling me I have my favourite type of gameplay, combined with my favourite type of dialogue interface. How can I not possibly be excited about that?

[tbsking]

In Exile wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

No, not cute and entitled, but at least you're honest enough to confirm that IS what is going on.

Edit: You want DA2 to be like ME3.  I get that. Why don't you get that people who loved DA want more of DA.  This would be like ME3 having a silent protagonist and people who love DA telling people who love ME to quit whining.

But I would be fine with that. It is not the kind of game I like as much; I would think it is a step backward. But I would play it, and be excited about it, just like I was over DA:O. 

I don't want DA2 to be like ME2 or ME1. I don't want a constant re-tread of Shepard. I just want a voiced protagonist. That makes me feel closer to the character, makes me feel as if I have ownership over the character, and as if I am closer to the story. I think VO is superior for role-playing. I get that not everyone agrees with me. But appreciate that.

I don't happen to like a shooter versus a strategic isometric RPG. I like that type of game far more. But I find the VO is lacking.

So now Bioware is telling me I have my favourite type of gameplay, combined with my favourite type of dialogue interface. How can I not possibly be excited about that?

I feel the exact opposite. I think a character with no set voice allows me to be closer, play the role better. Adding a voice and naming him Hawke just means I get to spend fifty hours watching some folks do some things.

[Anathemic]

In Exile wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

No, not cute and entitled, but at least you're honest enough to confirm that IS what is going on.

Edit: You want DA2 to be like ME3.  I get that. Why don't you get that people who loved DA want more of DA.  This would be like ME3 having a silent protagonist and people who love DA telling people who love ME to quit whining.

But I would be fine with that. It is not the kind of game I like as much; I would think it is a step backward. But I would play it, and be excited about it, just like I was over DA:O. 

I don't want DA2 to be like ME2 or ME1. I don't want a constant re-tread of Shepard. I just want a voiced protagonist. That makes me feel closer to the character, makes me feel as if I have ownership over the character, and as if I am closer to the story. I think VO is superior for role-playing. I get that not everyone agrees with me. But appreciate that.

I don't happen to like a shooter versus a strategic isometric RPG. I like that type of game far more. But I find the VO is lacking.

So now Bioware is telling me I have my favourite type of gameplay, combined with my favourite type of dialogue interface. How can I not possibly be excited about that?

This same argument can be used for us:

We loved no-VO and the list system, and the Origin stories

Now Bioware is telling us our favorite features are going to swapped in for features similar to Mass Effect's? How can we possible be happy for that?

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Fair enough.  It is obvious, however, that you have no idea "how I play games," since you call it lawn ornament playing.  I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean, but let's just say I have a few more characters on you and am still playing the game.  In fact, I'm more active with my latest character- she's probably the 12th full pt I've done- whereas you've moved on.

DAO was something unique.  I had hoped it would continue to be.  Alas not.

4 human mages. 3 human nobles. Both Elven backgrounds. Can't stand dwarves from an aesthetic point of view, so I only played their origins, but I happen to think they're the best written aside from the Mage origin (which is IMO the longest and best). I haven't seen all the endings because I tend to make the same choices, because I have my favoured personality type. I have very likely put in over 500 hours into the game. I played the game yesterday.

So let's just say while you have a few more characters that I did, you haven't played the game much more than I did.

As for how you play the game - I am willing to put very good money that once you pick your origin, you create a character concept. Each time you have a dialogue option, you imagine what that character would pick and use that internal voice to read the line. When there are ambiguities in the story, you fill them in. When other characters speak for you at dramatic moments, you either come up with side conversations that took place via your imagination or are ok with it. Am I close? 

[In Exile]

Anathemic wrote...

Well instead of stating that you got some invitation to whatever tournament (What's the point of a DA:O tournament? What's the competition?) you could've explainedi n the manner of what you experienced the DA:O a basic knowledge of the story perhaps? Or knowledge of combat system, or maybe a description of the dialogue system? These things are more acceptable then just blantantly stating that you got an invitation to a tournament which is irrelevant to the discussion.

It wasn't some tournament. It was done before release, so it was a sneak preview for a select few on gameplay. It was a major pre-release promotion and it was offered to people that were a big part of the original DA:O community on the old Bioware forums. It would have been a chance to meet Chris, plus others @ Bioware, and it was a reward for people that were so dedicated in following the game.

So the point is that I followed the game for years, and because of how closely and how into the game I was, I had that recognized. That's the point.

As for the dialogue system, for anyone that was on the old boards, everyone is familiar with the months of debate SylviusTheMad and I had over what it was that the dialogue system meant, and whether or not we could interpret the lines literally.

I mean, I'm probably more hardcore than a fair number of DA:O fans because I play exclusively point and click and don't use tactics.

I bring it up because it seems to be the favourite insult of some people that just because I like VO, I hate isometric strategy, or I hate DA, or I hate characterization, or I'm a new fan of Bioware and haven't played everything since NWN.

[In Exile]

Anathemic wrote...

This same argument can be used for us:

We loved no-VO and the list system, and the Origin stories

Now Bioware is telling us our favorite features are going to swapped in for features similar to Mass Effect's? How can we possible be happy for that?

I'm not saying you should be happy. That would be absurd.

But what I would like for us to do is to talk about what it is that an RPG should have to be an RPG, and how we can achieve this. More to the point, I would [blove[/b] a debate on the dialogue system itself, because I feel that the fans of no-VO misconstrue what it is that the dialogue system is, and based on that mistaken presumption, think VO is a massive departure from the design, when really it is just voicing lines that weren't voiced before.

Effectively, I would like a chance to present a case as to why VO can be RPG friendly. If people don't believe it after that, that's fine. But I would at least appreciate the recognition that I do not hate RPGs, that they are by far my favourite genre of game, and that maybe I just happen to have a slightly different view on how to best create an RPG.

[Anathemic]

In Exile wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Well instead of stating that you got some invitation to whatever tournament (What's the point of a DA:O tournament? What's the competition?) you could've explainedi n the manner of what you experienced the DA:O a basic knowledge of the story perhaps? Or knowledge of combat system, or maybe a description of the dialogue system? These things are more acceptable then just blantantly stating that you got an invitation to a tournament which is irrelevant to the discussion.

It wasn't some tournament. It was done before release, so it was a sneak preview for a select few on gameplay. It was a major pre-release promotion and it was offered to people that were a big part of the original DA:O community on the old Bioware forums. It would have been a chance to meet Chris, plus others @ Bioware, and it was a reward for people that were so dedicated in following the game.

So the point is that I followed the game for years, and because of how closely and how into the game I was, I had that recognized. That's the point.

As for the dialogue system, for anyone that was on the old boards, everyone is familiar with the months of debate SylviusTheMad and I had over what it was that the dialogue system meant, and whether or not we could interpret the lines literally.

I mean, I'm probably more hardcore than a fair number of DA:O fans because I play exclusively point and click and don't use tactics.

I bring it up because it seems to be the favourite insult of some people that just because I like VO, I hate isometric strategy, or I hate DA, or I hate characterization, or I'm a new fan of Bioware and haven't played everything since NWN.

I never used the insult frankly, and yes people do use that insult because it's all the hype and and crap on these forums at the moment ,we can either be mature and do debate or either give in into the forum madness. I mean jsut yesterday I had 3 people arguing my points, one was mature, the other insulting whenever, and the other going capitalist on me.

[Kolos2]

EA whants to pull another C&C

[Fangirl17]

At first I was one of the doomsayers that was really upset about them seemingly making DA2 like ME,but after a couple of days I accepted the changes. I dont think DA2 will feel like ME (in terms of diologue). At least I hope not, I think Bioware will suprise us. Im very excited and cant wait for the trailer.



The one thing that Im really worried about now is the voice actor/actress. I was VERY much against a voiced PC but..I dont know,it could work out. It depends on how Boware handles it. If its like ME, then I will hate it,but I have fath that Bioware will not force a set personality on us like in ME.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

As for how you play the game - I am willing to put very good money that once you pick your origin, you create a character concept. Each time you have a dialogue option, you imagine what that character would pick and use that internal voice to read the line. When there are ambiguities in the story, you fill them in. When other characters speak for you at dramatic moments, you either come up with side conversations that took place via your imagination or are ok with it. Am I close? 

And this is what you call a lawn ornament?

[tbsking]

Kolos2 wrote...

EA whants to pull another C&C

Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist whacko, but I do wonder how much pressure from EA was involved that led to changes that are quite drastic departures from the first game. The cynic in me can see EA thinking they saw an opportunity to make money from an expanded fanbase of a single IP.