296 réponses à ce sujet

[alb84]

perhaps they could give to the player, the option of disable the hawke's Voice... this would certainly solve all this problems.. the people who wants that voice still have it... and those who doesn't want it they can disable it so they can "interact" better with the RPG...



maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe that this option would be very hard to put in the game

[tbsking]

I can't see BioWare or EA thinking it was a good idea to spend money on a ton of spoken dialogue but give players an option to disable it. I know I wouldn't.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

As for how you play the game - I am willing to put very good money that once you pick your origin, you create a character concept. Each time you have a dialogue option, you imagine what that character would pick and use that internal voice to read the line. When there are ambiguities in the story, you fill them in. When other characters speak for you at dramatic moments, you either come up with side conversations that took place via your imagination or are ok with it. Am I close? 

And this is what you call a lawn ornament?

Yeah. It's a lawn ornament. I can pretend my garden note is a gnome king cursed by the gods of humanity as punishment for trying to enact a genocidal plot to enslave mankind. I can even imagine what its reaction is as my friends and I sit around and relax in the backyard. But it does nothing and reacts to nothing.

And this is what a non-VO PC is.

[tbsking]

What about the dialogue options? Those aren't reactions? Your lawn gnome can click on responses to your statements? What?

[Fangirl17]

I see a non-voiced PC as a blank slate and your imagination can make that character however you want,but I can see why people would want more reactions and emotion from there PC instead of just standing there with a blank face.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

As for how you play the game - I am willing to put very good money that once you pick your origin, you create a character concept. Each time you have a dialogue option, you imagine what that character would pick and use that internal voice to read the line. When there are ambiguities in the story, you fill them in. When other characters speak for you at dramatic moments, you either come up with side conversations that took place via your imagination or are ok with it. Am I close? 

And this is what you call a lawn ornament?

Yeah. It's a lawn ornament. I can pretend my garden note is a gnome king cursed by the gods of humanity as punishment for trying to enact a genocidal plot to enslave mankind. I can even imagine what its reaction is as my friends and I sit around and relax in the backyard. But it does nothing and reacts to nothing.

And this is what a non-VO PC is.

Do you read novels?

[jableskage]

Ecael wrote...

Vayrand wrote...

No wonder I've been slowly moving away to Blizzard these days. At least they are open with what they want to change and don't hold back any information.

You do realize why Blizzard was considering forcing almost everyone to post on their forums with their real names, right?

you already posted this picture or one to its effect, time to post a real response noob

[In Exile]

tbsking wrote...

What about the dialogue options? Those aren't reactions? Your lawn gnome can click on responses to your statements? What?

No. The NPCs react to the lawn ornament. Alistair has reactions. Morrigan has reactions. Anora has reactions. The lawn ornament is simply there.

I can pretend my lawn gnome picked a dialogue option each time I look at it. After all, the only way we can tell the character is speaking in a silent VO game is that everyone else responds to you.

Addai67 wrote...

Do you read novels?

Of course I do. Are novels an interactive audio-visual medium? 

[Merci357]

Addai67 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

As for how you play the game - I am willing to put very good money that once you pick your origin, you create a character concept. Each time you have a dialogue option, you imagine what that character would pick and use that internal voice to read the line. When there are ambiguities in the story, you fill them in. When other characters speak for you at dramatic moments, you either come up with side conversations that took place via your imagination or are ok with it. Am I close? 

And this is what you call a lawn ornament?

Yeah. It's a lawn ornament. I can pretend my garden note is a gnome king cursed by the gods of humanity as punishment for trying to enact a genocidal plot to enslave mankind. I can even imagine what its reaction is as my friends and I sit around and relax in the backyard. But it does nothing and reacts to nothing.

And this is what a non-VO PC is.

Do you read novels?

And what do you imagine when reading? Just the looks because everything else is described?

[tbsking]

In Exile wrote...

tbsking wrote...

What about the dialogue options? Those aren't reactions? Your lawn gnome can click on responses to your statements? What?

No. The NPCs react to the lawn ornament. Alistair has reactions. Morrigan has reactions. Anora has reactions. The lawn ornament is simply there.

I can pretend my lawn gnome picked a dialogue option each time I look at it. After all, the only way we can tell the character is speaking in a silent VO game is that everyone else responds to you.

Addai67 wrote...

Do you read novels?

Of course I do. Are novels an interactive audio-visual medium? 

If I may... Allow me to present my view on why I prefer non-VO characters.

In a VO game, if the protagonist speaks, I am watching them react, watching them deliver lines, watching them have a response.

In a non-VO game, I am having a response, I am reacting, and I am an active participant in the game. A VO protagonist is far less interactive than a non-VO because I feel as though I have a less active part in his character.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Do you read novels?

Of course I do. Are novels an interactive audio-visual medium? 

No, they're not, but still they manage to convey an awful lot of meaning even if they're not acted out.  Perhaps our culture has gotten to the point where stories are not "real" until Hollywood has put some overpaid, underfed teenager up in makeup and forced him or her to puppet it.  Or video games are just slow movies with bad graphics and annoying interruptions.  Some of us still prefer to use our imaginations, however.  I didn't think there could be a video game that inspired imagination.  DAO was a surprise.

Yes, the writer imposed certain limitations on my character, most of which I liked- the writers are really good- and some of which I didn't.  This is a collaboration that became comfortable enough to where I could let my own imagination run with what was given.  I am sure that it would be possible for some to do this even if you place a voice actor in between the player and the writer, another layer of distance between myself and my character.  Except now I can't even control my character's wording- at all.  I have to pick a general response and then sit back to see what my character is going to actually say.  Surprise!  Perhaps you like having that control taken away from you, but I don't.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:06 .

[tbsking]

Addai67 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Do you read novels?

Of course I do. Are novels an interactive audio-visual medium? 

No, they're not, but still they manage to convey an awful lot of meaning even if they're not acted out.  Perhaps our culture has gotten to the point where stories are not "real" until Hollywood has put some overpaid, underfed teenager up in makeup and forced him or her to puppet it.  Or video games are just slow movies with bad graphics and annoying interruptions.  Some of us still prefer to use our imaginations, however.  I didn't think there could be a video game that inspired imagination.  DAO was a surprise.

Yes, the writer imposed certain limitations on my character, most of which I liked- the writers are really good- and some of which I didn't.  This is a collaboration that became comfortable enough to where I could let my own imagination run with what was given.  I am sure that it would be possible for some to do this even if you place a voice actor in between the player and the writer, another layer of distance between myself and my character.  Except now I can't even control my character's wording- at all.  I have to pick a general response and then sit back to see what my character is going to actually say.  Surprise!  Perhaps you like having that control taken away from you, but I don't.

Exactly. Whatever limitations were imposed by the writing, they were all tolerable and perhaps even welcome given the overall freedom and quality of the writing as a whole. A VO game would detract from that because it would just be watching some other people act out a scene.

[Ecael]

[quote]jableskage wrote...

[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Vayrand wrote...

No wonder I've been slowly moving away to Blizzard these days. At least they are open with what they want to change and don't hold back any information. [/quote]
You do realize why Blizzard was considering forcing almost everyone to post on their forums with their real names, right?


[/quote]

you already posted this picture or one to its effect, time to post a real response noob[/quote]
Which response to this thread would you prefer?

[quote]Ecael wrote...

This one?
[quote]Khayness wrote...

Nerd Rage > Real IDs

Whining is power, as I shamelessly stolen and altered that quote from PS:T said.[/quote]
No, invasion of privacy > Real IDs.

Also, judging by the whining on these forums, I think a lot of people here would fit right in with all the World of Warcraft players whining about Blizzard catering to the casual gamers.

The grass is always greener on the other side.[/quote]
Or this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Merci357 wrote...

The "outrage" about the Real ID is one thing. However, Blizzard is quite upfront about their games, and balance/gameplay changes - and explaining the reason behind. It's like everywhere - I don't necessarily agree, but given a reason, I can understand why it was done.[/quote]
Blizzard has teams dedicated to balancing their games. Their specialty was RTS and top-down multiplayer action RPG; now, it's the MMORPG. BioWare has never had to worry about balance since they've always focused on single-player.

I guarantee you, anyone who runs to Blizzard in an attempt to "stick it to BioWare" will soon find themselves whining on the forum about how Blizzard doesn't listen to the true RPG fans and is targeting the casual gamer. They will also accuse Blizzard of being a slave to Activision.[/quote]
Or this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Kalfear wrote...

LOL, I cant help wondering if TOR doesnt reach the subscription numbers they want internally how many people will look at the forum mods as part of the problem! Seriously, I got a infraction for calling a guy a troll. Thats all I said. Nothing more! That forum could have millions posting but its got a rep that any passion will be punished.[/quote]
You've never seen the Blizzard forums, have you?

There's enough people whining there about how they're going to leave for The Old Republic when it comes out.

It looks like the Blizzard whiners are going to run to BioWare and some BioWare whiners are going to run to Blizzard, and are going to end up complaining about the very same thing anyway.

Magnificent.[/quote]
Or this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Khayness wrote...

[quote]Ecael wrote...

You've never seen the Blizzard forums, have you?

There's enough people whining there about how they're going to leave for The Old Republic when it comes out.

It looks like the Blizzard whiners are going to run to BioWare and some BioWare whiners are going to run to Blizzard, and are going to end up complaining about the very same thing anyway.

Magnificent.[/quote]

They have played the same game with AoC and WH:O releases, still they ended up back.[/quote]
And many, many other MMORPGs.

The same can and will be said of BioWare and their single-player RPGs.
[/quote]
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Kalfear wrote...

[quote]tbsking wrote...

But wait a minute. That makes perfect sense, but DAO sold astoundingly well. Why would they change the formula as severely as it sounds?[/quote]

It did????

ROFL, go look at LPPrince post in other thread just now

Apprently DA:O sold terrible and the changes were mandatory because of how little it sold!
ROFL!

The blind pro crowd is just so filled with delussion they will tell any tale to try and sound like they have a clue![/quote]
[quote]Disappointed massively with Mass Effect 2[/quote]
And the tales coming from the Mass Effect crowd:

[quote]Ecael wrote...

ME2 doesn't sell well: That's because they're not appealing to the RPG fans!
ME2 sells well: That's because they're appealing to the dumb masses!
ME2 sells the same as ME1: That's because their appealing to the masses didn't work![/quote]
Let me adjust that for next year:

[quote]Ecael wrote...

DA2 doesn't sell well: That's because they're not appealing to the RPG fans!
DA2 sells well: That's because they're appealing to the dumb masses!
DA2 sells the same as ME1: That's because their appealing to the masses didn't work![/quote][/quote]
Or this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Kalfear wrote...

ROFL, go look at LPPrince post in other thread just now

Apprently DA:O sold terrible and the changes were mandatory because of how little it sold![/quote]


All were very successful after 4 weeks of release on the X-Box 360 console.

Getting accurate sales data from the PC is difficult due to Steam, Impulse and Direct2Drive.[/quote]
How about this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]errant_knight wrote...

Well, there are lots of games I don't buy because, while they're packed with action, they don't have what drew me to Dragon Age--the ability to get to know your companions in a way that felt real, speaking to them where, how, and with the words you chose. I'd be willing to bet that the fans of those disliked DA for the same reasons I loved it. Amp up the action, minimize the slower thoughtul parts.... Make it brighter and shinier--they'll buy it. In my opinion, EA wants DA to capture the action crowd, and that's what this is all about. Less dialogue, less acting, and god forbid someone should have to read something. Cheaper to make, too. And it doesn't matter one bit that we liked the Origins model, because there are more people that don't care about that than do.[/quote]
That's assuming that Dragon Age: Origins wasn't already brighter and shinier than most of the past RPGs.

BioWare polishes their games with lots of fully voiced dialogue, realistic graphics and cinematics and good customization.

If you were to play Mass Effect 1 immediately before playing Mass Effect 2 several times (like I have), you would have noticed that BioWare put a lot of work into doubling the amount of dialogue while also increasing the number of available model animations by about tenfold.

Even though most people don't even care about this - not the casual gamers, and not the self-proclaimed hardcore "RPG" fanatics - they do this anyway. People complain that they don't get to see their favorite squadmate/companion again and automatically assume that BioWare is appealing to a different crowd.

• I don't see anyone with banners saying "I support even more dialogue for ME3/DA2!" or
• "I support more cinematics and animations for ME3/DA2!"
• "I support even more well-written characters for ME3/DA2!"

Yet BioWare will improve greatly upon every single one of those things while everyone else asks why their main character or side characters aren't exactly as they should be and why there's more action (as if they didn't notice all the mentioned improvements).

Both casual gamers and hardcore RPG fans need to "smart up" before either of them complain about the game being "dumbed down". If you want me to start generalizing on who's in this group of people from the forums who need to smart up, then I'd list them as:

• Anyone who's ever had a signature supporting a single or set of characters for Mass Effect or Dragon Age
• Anyone who's only posted in a single or set of support threads for Mass Effect
• Anyone who's uploaded their custom made Dragon Age character to use as their avatar
• Anyone who's ever talked in length about their favorite romance or posted several pictures of them

You'll notice that's pretty much all of the forum, except for people who have troll accounts, which is self-explanatory.

As long as that's the case, the only thing getting dumbed down is this forum.[/quote]
Maybe this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Kalfear wrote...

ahhh the ME2 trolls here to spred misinformation
never stops being amazing!
Look, more pretty colors (and amazing use of bolding) to try and misguide and misinform!
how creative

as for the positive and useful replies from credible posters![/quote]
So because someone disagrees with you after you don't get what you want, your plug your ears and run around saying "I can't hear you!"?

Are you going to start jumping up and down and stomping the ground if more information on Dragon Age 2 isn't what you wanted?

[quote]Oh as for there being no alternative RPGs out there (again misdirection from the Bioware self appointed spokeperson) Deus Ex3 looks very interesting and calls itself a Action RPG. Is it more RPG or more action? I have no idea but cant be any more a let down then ME2 was. There is other products out there is the point. Just for years many of us looked to Bioware for our fix in RPGs. Maybe its time we stopped blindly supporting them (im just as guillty as everyone else on this, if not more so, I would buy Xbox and PC versions of same titles) and gave these other titles a chance![/quote]
Have you checked the Deus Ex forums lately?

After seeing the gameplay leak are you buying?

A third of the forum is already forecasting the doom of Deus Ex 3 even though it's not coming out until next year.

Sound familiar?

"We see Deus Ex: Human Revolution as a reboot of the franchise, basically." ~Dugas

People getting nervous because the franchise isn't going to be entirely continuous.

Sound familiar?

Target Audience of Deus Ex 3

People insulting the potential Deus Ex 3 game for being dumbed down.

Sound familiar?

This one is a classic:

http://forums.eidosg...d.php?p=1429785
[quote]I seem to be one of the only true agnostics left around here; in the last three weeks, this site has gone from a place I enjoyed visiting to a place I'm considering deserting altogether. The cool topics of discussion have degenerated into a p*ssing match, largely started by those who are "certain" that DX:HR will be terrible. These people should play the lottery with their new-found psychic powers.[/quote]
Sound familiar?

Keep threatening BioWare that you'll leave for other games. I'm sure you'll enjoy whining on the other forums too.[/quote]
[color=red]Time to start reading and coming up with a real response, "noob".

Just because you can't come up with a valid response to what I say doesn't mean you can nitpick a single picture out of several posts.

Modifié par Ecael, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:15 .

[Addai]

I'll give credit to Brockololly for linking this blog post in another thread.  It's by an audio engineer who explains why less is more in voice, and lays out pretty well why some of us cannot comprehend what Bioware is doing.

I feel the same sort of confusion as I did when the writers were informing us that the dialogue system in Awakening is so sparse and unsatisfactory because NPC dialogues in Origins were "broken."  What the writers are calling bugs, many of us who love DAO call features.  It's happening all over again.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:19 .

[Ju13es]

ejoslin wrote...

virumor wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

That's too simplistic, and not accurate.  You could get into the character in a way you can't with a voiced character -- saying that is "wrong" or "not intended" is silly; it works if the protagonist isn't voiced if the writing is good.  And a lot of people liked dragon age for that reason. 

But it's a computer game, not a PnP session. Reading one's DA:O character's lines in a certain imagined tone doesn't lead to anywhere, since as mentioned before one will always be lead to the story conclusion that the writers have already set in stone. It's not as if there's a DM present that can change the direction of the game on the fly.

That has nothing to do with immersion though, or role playing the character.  Or the illusion of being an influence.  And I find it very hard to believe that being able to get into the warden in an RP way was not what the writers intended.

Sure there are limits to what can be done in a computer game.  That is what made DAO so spectacular.  The actual story itself, save the world from the evil monsters, is not original in computer games.  But the way the game allowed you to actually care for your characters...  That was amazing writing, and amazing story telling.

I liken it to the difference between reading a book and watching a movie. When I read a book, I can put myself into it; when I watch a movie, I'm an observer.

Edit: I think part of the problem is some people cannot put themselves into their character -- they do not get what people like me are saying.  I can't complain about my character being expressionless because for the most part, during interactions, I was just seeing the back of her head anyway.  The focus was almost always on the NPC, not the warden.

I agree and disagree. Yes I can get myself way more involved with a book than a film. But having visuals without words do not seem as inpactful to me. I am not sure if you have done this, (SPOILER WARNING) but if you choose to kill Connor, the way his mother reacts with the situation and how she reacts with his death I found heart wrenching ONLY because i could hear her sobs, hear her cries for mercy. Actually hearing someone do that is way more inpactful than imagining it, because it sounds like an actual person suffering, not just some inaudible voice in your head.

I loved dragon age because of the choices and how attatched I got to my companions (morrigan in particular), not because I ruely cared for my grey warden, to me he was merely a puppet with an occasional facial expression. During the human noble origin story, I did nto like how my characters father was dying and had this face of horror, but not so much of a sigh coming from his mouth, but having these silent diologue options.

Do not take me for a person who is entirely agains silent PC. I enjoyed it in oblivion and fallout (probably because the diolague choices were not very heavy or impactful, just a few simple choices) and I really really enjoyed it in Morrowind whom every NPC was silent when you spoke to them. But when you actually get into deep and good writing in a game, where the characters writing is about as good as the writing of the characters you interact with, i find it to be not enough to have a Good imagination for filling in spaces where there should be sound. It does nothing for my emotional involvement in the game. Sound and music tug on a persons heartstrings far more than imagining how your PC would sound when saying a line of dialouge.

[Ecael]

Addai67 wrote...

I'll give credit to Brockololly for linking this blog post in another thread.  It's by an audio engineer who explains why less is more in voice, and lays out pretty well why some of us cannot comprehend what Bioware is doing.

I feel the same sort of confusion as I did when the writers were informing us that the dialogue system in Awakening is so sparse and unsatisfactory because NPC dialogues in Origins were "broken."  What the writers are calling bugs, many of us who love DAO call features.  It's happening all over again.

Broken because they too were voiced.

What you're looking for is a game with little to no voiced dialogue at all (Baldur's Gate). BioWare refuses to go back to those times, and most fans refuse to go back to those times as well. Most people don't want to read what's in the Codex or what's in the e-mail or what's on the Blackstone Irregulars board. That's why they continue with the voicing.

Until people demand a top-down game with hardly any voiced dialogue, you won't see a reversal with this decision unless the main character voiced actors become too expensive.

[DragonRageGT]

[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]jableskage wrote...

[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Vayrand wrote...

No wonder I've been slowly moving away to Blizzard these days. At least they are open with what they want to change and don't hold back any information. [/quote]
You do realize why Blizzard was considering forcing almost everyone to post on their forums with their real names, right?


[/quote]

you already posted this picture or one to its effect, time to post a real response noob[/quote]
Which response to this thread would you prefer?

[quote]Ecael wrote...

This one?
[quote]Khayness wrote...

Nerd Rage > Real IDs

Whining is power, as I shamelessly stolen and altered that quote from PS:T said.[/quote]
No, invasion of privacy > Real IDs.

Also, judging by the whining on these forums, I think a lot of people here would fit right in with all the World of Warcraft players whining about Blizzard catering to the casual gamers.

The grass is always greener on the other side.[/quote]
Or this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Merci357 wrote...

The "outrage" about the Real ID is one thing. However, Blizzard is quite upfront about their games, and balance/gameplay changes - and explaining the reason behind. It's like everywhere - I don't necessarily agree, but given a reason, I can understand why it was done.[/quote]
Blizzard has teams dedicated to balancing their games. Their specialty was RTS and top-down multiplayer action RPG; now, it's the MMORPG. BioWare has never had to worry about balance since they've always focused on single-player.

I guarantee you, anyone who runs to Blizzard in an attempt to "stick it to BioWare" will soon find themselves whining on the forum about how Blizzard doesn't listen to the true RPG fans and is targeting the casual gamer. They will also accuse Blizzard of being a slave to Activision.[/quote]
Or this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Kalfear wrote...

LOL, I cant help wondering if TOR doesnt reach the subscription numbers they want internally how many people will look at the forum mods as part of the problem! Seriously, I got a infraction for calling a guy a troll. Thats all I said. Nothing more! That forum could have millions posting but its got a rep that any passion will be punished.[/quote]
You've never seen the Blizzard forums, have you?

There's enough people whining there about how they're going to leave for The Old Republic when it comes out.

It looks like the Blizzard whiners are going to run to BioWare and some BioWare whiners are going to run to Blizzard, and are going to end up complaining about the very same thing anyway.

Magnificent.[/quote]
Or this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Khayness wrote...

[quote]Ecael wrote...

You've never seen the Blizzard forums, have you?

There's enough people whining there about how they're going to leave for The Old Republic when it comes out.

It looks like the Blizzard whiners are going to run to BioWare and some BioWare whiners are going to run to Blizzard, and are going to end up complaining about the very same thing anyway.

Magnificent.[/quote]

They have played the same game with AoC and WH:O releases, still they ended up back.[/quote]
And many, many other MMORPGs.

The same can and will be said of BioWare and their single-player RPGs.
[/quote]
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Kalfear wrote...

[quote]tbsking wrote...

But wait a minute. That makes perfect sense, but DAO sold astoundingly well. Why would they change the formula as severely as it sounds?[/quote]

It did????

ROFL, go look at LPPrince post in other thread just now

Apprently DA:O sold terrible and the changes were mandatory because of how little it sold!
ROFL!

The blind pro crowd is just so filled with delussion they will tell any tale to try and sound like they have a clue![/quote]
[quote]Disappointed massively with Mass Effect 2[/quote]
And the tales coming from the Mass Effect crowd:

[quote]Ecael wrote...

ME2 doesn't sell well: That's because they're not appealing to the RPG fans!
ME2 sells well: That's because they're appealing to the dumb masses!
ME2 sells the same as ME1: That's because their appealing to the masses didn't work![/quote]
Let me adjust that for next year:

[quote]Ecael wrote...

DA2 doesn't sell well: That's because they're not appealing to the RPG fans!
DA2 sells well: That's because they're appealing to the dumb masses!
DA2 sells the same as ME1: That's because their appealing to the masses didn't work![/quote][/quote]
Or this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Kalfear wrote...

ROFL, go look at LPPrince post in other thread just now

Apprently DA:O sold terrible and the changes were mandatory because of how little it sold![/quote]


All were very successful after 4 weeks of release on the X-Box 360 console.

Getting accurate sales data from the PC is difficult due to Steam, Impulse and Direct2Drive.[/quote]
How about this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]errant_knight wrote...

Well, there are lots of games I don't buy because, while they're packed with action, they don't have what drew me to Dragon Age--the ability to get to know your companions in a way that felt real, speaking to them where, how, and with the words you chose. I'd be willing to bet that the fans of those disliked DA for the same reasons I loved it. Amp up the action, minimize the slower thoughtul parts.... Make it brighter and shinier--they'll buy it. In my opinion, EA wants DA to capture the action crowd, and that's what this is all about. Less dialogue, less acting, and god forbid someone should have to read something. Cheaper to make, too. And it doesn't matter one bit that we liked the Origins model, because there are more people that don't care about that than do.[/quote]
That's assuming that Dragon Age: Origins wasn't already brighter and shinier than most of the past RPGs.

BioWare polishes their games with lots of fully voiced dialogue, realistic graphics and cinematics and good customization.

If you were to play Mass Effect 1 immediately before playing Mass Effect 2 several times (like I have), you would have noticed that BioWare put a lot of work into doubling the amount of dialogue while also increasing the number of available model animations by about tenfold.

Even though most people don't even care about this - not the casual gamers, and not the self-proclaimed hardcore "RPG" fanatics - they do this anyway. People complain that they don't get to see their favorite squadmate/companion again and automatically assume that BioWare is appealing to a different crowd.

• I don't see anyone with banners saying "I support even more dialogue for ME3/DA2!" or
• "I support more cinematics and animations for ME3/DA2!"
• "I support even more well-written characters for ME3/DA2!"

Yet BioWare will improve greatly upon every single one of those things while everyone else asks why their main character or side characters aren't exactly as they should be and why there's more action (as if they didn't notice all the mentioned improvements).

Both casual gamers and hardcore RPG fans need to "smart up" before either of them complain about the game being "dumbed down". If you want me to start generalizing on who's in this group of people from the forums who need to smart up, then I'd list them as:

• Anyone who's ever had a signature supporting a single or set of characters for Mass Effect or Dragon Age
• Anyone who's only posted in a single or set of support threads for Mass Effect
• Anyone who's uploaded their custom made Dragon Age character to use as their avatar
• Anyone who's ever talked in length about their favorite romance or posted several pictures of them

You'll notice that's pretty much all of the forum, except for people who have troll accounts, which is self-explanatory.

As long as that's the case, the only thing getting dumbed down is this forum.[/quote]
Maybe this one?
[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]Kalfear wrote...

ahhh the ME2 trolls here to spred misinformation
never stops being amazing!
Look, more pretty colors (and amazing use of bolding) to try and misguide and misinform!
how creative

as for the positive and useful replies from credible posters![/quote]
So because someone disagrees with you after you don't get what you want, your plug your ears and run around saying "I can't hear you!"?

Are you going to start jumping up and down and stomping the ground if more information on Dragon Age 2 isn't what you wanted?

[quote]Oh as for there being no alternative RPGs out there (again misdirection from the Bioware self appointed spokeperson) Deus Ex3 looks very interesting and calls itself a Action RPG. Is it more RPG or more action? I have no idea but cant be any more a let down then ME2 was. There is other products out there is the point. Just for years many of us looked to Bioware for our fix in RPGs. Maybe its time we stopped blindly supporting them (im just as guillty as everyone else on this, if not more so, I would buy Xbox and PC versions of same titles) and gave these other titles a chance![/quote]
Have you checked the Deus Ex forums lately?

After seeing the gameplay leak are you buying?

A third of the forum is already forecasting the doom of Deus Ex 3 even though it's not coming out until next year.

Sound familiar?

"We see Deus Ex: Human Revolution as a reboot of the franchise, basically." ~Dugas

People getting nervous because the franchise isn't going to be entirely continuous.

Sound familiar?

Target Audience of Deus Ex 3

People insulting the potential Deus Ex 3 game for being dumbed down.

Sound familiar?

This one is a classic:

http://forums.eidosg...d.php?p=1429785
[quote]I seem to be one of the only true agnostics left around here; in the last three weeks, this site has gone from a place I enjoyed visiting to a place I'm considering deserting altogether. The cool topics of discussion have degenerated into a p*ssing match, largely started by those who are "certain" that DX:HR will be terrible. These people should play the lottery with their new-found psychic powers.[/quote]
Sound familiar?

Keep threatening BioWare that you'll leave for other games. I'm sure you'll enjoy whining on the other forums too.[/quote]
[color=red]Time to start reading and coming up with a real response, "noob".

Just because you can't come up with a valid response to what I say doesn't mean you can nitpick a single picture out of several posts.
[/quote]
[*]woohoo... big hypnotic square text wall

[Addai]

Ju13es wrote...

Do not take me for a person who is entirely agains silent PC. I enjoyed it in oblivion and fallout (probably because the diolague choices were not very heavy or impactful, just a few simple choices) and I really really enjoyed it in Morrowind whom every NPC was silent when you spoke to them. But when you actually get into deep and good writing in a game, where the characters writing is about as good as the writing of the characters you interact with, i find it to be not enough to have a Good imagination for filling in spaces where there should be sound. It does nothing for my emotional involvement in the game. Sound and music tug on a persons heartstrings far more than imagining how your PC would sound when saying a line of dialouge.

The question I have is:  If the devs just have a story they want to get through, such that they absolutely need a voice actor to make sure I don't get it wrong, what do they need me for?  Can't we just skip all the tedious combat and get to what it is they're trying to tell us?  IOW, why is this a game and not a movie?

[In Exile]

tbsking wrote...

If I may... Allow me to present my view on why I prefer non-VO characters.

By all means.

In a VO game, if the protagonist speaks, I am watching them react, watching them deliver lines, watching them have a response.

In a non-VO game, I am having a response, I am reacting, and I am an active participant in the game. A VO protagonist is far less interactive than a non-VO because I feel as though I have a less active part in his character.

Why? I suppose this is what I can't understand. Why do you feel that you are reacting in the non-VO case moreso than the non-VO case?

In both cases, I am picking a pre-written line with a pre-written delivery. In one case, I am a static figure. The world tells me what the tone and meaning of the line is on the basis of how they react to it. In the other case, I see the tone and meaning conveyed in what the character does. Sometimes the pre-written cue fails to convey the meaning of the dialogue. But it doesn't fail more often in the non-VO than the VO case for me; it's just more visible in the VO case because you see the character acting it out.

For me, it's the opposite. As I see the protagonist speak, I am saying it. As I see the protagonist react, I am reacting. Obviously as much as one can do any of these things inside of a video-game. At the end of the day, none of these things actually happen to me. But I feel a greater part of the world when I see an interaction with it, versus seeing everyone react to that interaction.

The biggest part of VO is that it allows for action to replace words. A huge part of communication is action. "Shut up and kiss me," isn't as powerful as cutting someone off and kissing them. VO gives you the action, the dramatic moment of doing it; the non-VO makes you read the line and (today) see the cutscene.

Addai67 wrote...

No, they're not, but still they manage to convey an awful lot of
meaning even if they're not acted out.

That's a false analogy, though. There is no part of the book that is acted out, and it is all fixed. The meaning is often provided through setting that is beyond dialogue - often through the style of writing and the description of the scene. A book is nothing like a play, or a movie. It is nothing like experiencing reality, and this is what reality is.

A better analogy to a silent protagonist would be a play where one of the characters is a prop, and the line the prop utters is illustrated via a canvass shown to the audience. Of course, this analogy fails to capture the interactivity of the game, but at the very least it addresses the dissonance of the silent VO in a video-game, which the book analogy masks.

  Perhaps our culture has gotten to the point where stories are not
"real" until Hollywood has put some overpaid, underfed teenager up in
makeup and forced him or her to puppet it.  Or video games are just slow
movies with bad graphics and annoying interruptions.

Or perhaps we are a species that has evolved with vision as our primary sense, and hearing as our secondary. Proposition and imagination, being so evolutionary recent, is less viscerally real than something that makes the brain think "real". If you'd like a detailed explanation, I would be happy to provide it.

The gist of it is that our brain is configured to rank, so to speak, things on how real they are based on the number of senses that they exchange. When we triangulate something via sight and sound, it is far more real that something we mentally simulate and see only as propositionl. A video-game is "real" to us because of the senses that it engages, and because when we see other people do things, we feel like we are doing them, because this is how the brain 'interprets' the meaning behind the action of others.

So if you want to know why people prefer movies and realistic graphics as more real than books... it's because we've been evolutionary wired, and has nothing with the "we're all dumbed down!" argument you are trying to sneak in via the back door.

Some of us still prefer to use our imaginations, however.  I didn't
think there could be a video game that inspired imagination.  DAO was a
surprise.

I love using my imagination. My imagination provides with stories and plots that I find far superior to what Bioware can give me. If it were up to my imagination, my male human noble would have convinced Alistair to abdicate in his favour at the Landsmeet. He would have convinced the other lords that as the only living heir to the Cousland line, as a man who is not a bastard raised by the Chantry, as the son of the greatest and oldest Teyrn in the land, he is fit to rule Ferelden. Anora would be imprisoned for her treasonous support of her father. Alistair could command the Wardens, which is his dream anyway. And my character would be free from the forced conscription in the Wardens a sole King of Ferelden.

But Bioware denied me this. They forced me to identify myself as a Warden. They demanded that people refer to me as "Warden" and gave me no chance to refuse this insult. Even if I wanted to save Ferelden for other reasons, I was forced to take this on. If I played Awakening, they forced me even harder into a character role that I did not want.

My imagination is far superior to what Bioware can provide. I do not want a director for my imagination.

Filling in the blanks is an insult, because all I want to do is rail against how much Bioware forces on me; how they force me to lick Alistair or Anora's boots when they give the dramatic speech at the endgame, though I'm supposed to be the military commander of Ferelden. And so on.

Yes, the writer imposed certain limitations on my character, most of
which I liked- the writers are really good- and some of which I
didn't.  This is a collaboration that became comfortable enough to where
I could let my own imagination run with what was given.

And for me, it was a restrictive yoke. The game did not allow me to read Flemeth's grimoire to deduce the true purpose of her existence. It did not allow me to slowly begin studying her true grimoire. And so on.

All I see is closed doors and yokes. Pretending I said something in a sarcastic way when no one reacts to my lawn ornament isn't using my imagination. Using my imagination is creating a rich story and backdrop I can react to, and I don't need a script or director for that.

I am sure that it would be possible for some to do this even if you
place a voice actor in between the player and the writer, another layer
of distance between myself and my character.

The writer has already greatest the greatest possible gulf: by only writing certain outcomes as possible, by allowing me only a limited set of outcomes to the game, they have limited my character. My human noble cannot force the landsmeet to King himself. It is simply not possible. And so my entire motivation, that I had spent a game developing, that I actually switched characters from a Mage at Denerim at the endgame for, was denied to me. How do you "free" and "capable of using my imagination" did you think I felt like when I just learned that an outcome I looked forward to for 50 hours was impossible, and if I wanted for my character to be King I had to beg Anora to be her royal arm candy?

Except now I can't even control my character's wording- at all.  I have
to pick a general response and then sit back to see what my character
is going to actually say.  Surprise!  Perhaps you like having that
control taken away from you, but I don't.

Awakening stole control from me when it told me my character chose to the Warden Commander and continue as a Grey Warden. None of my characters wanted that.

DA:O stole control from me, after letting me be reluctant all the way up to Ostagar, and up to Flemeth's keep, even when giving me the option to be 'convinced' by the fact that the Blight could overrun all of Thedas if we let it fester and regardless of my feeling toward the Wardens, I should save Ferelden... I had the rest of the game refer to me as a Warden and tell me I cared about their mission.

Maybe you use your "imagination" to escape from these insults that the writers inflict on you, but to me that's just willfully wishing content that is in the game, in fact isn't in the game. And to me that's just rationalizing. I don't want to make up reasons why I can't do what I want. That's not fun.

So again, I don't see VO limiting my ability to characterize, since the writers by virtue of writing a story with limited options have done that already.

[L33TDAWG]

Khayness wrote...

MFCell wrote...

The ONLY reason they have AT ALL for doing this is to close the gap between the ME and DA fanbases, in an attempt to get more money.

I'm pretty sure that those two fanbases are extremely close together.

Nah, I have a ton of friends who will play shooters, but not games with dragons and such because they consider it "nerdy", because you know spending all day playing games and talking with your friends about games isn't nerdy already. I hate what they are doing though. If they were doing what they did in Jade Empire, then I wouldn't mind at all.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

The biggest part of VO is that it allows for action to replace words. A huge part of communication is action. "Shut up and kiss me," isn't as powerful as cutting someone off and kissing them. VO gives you the action, the dramatic moment of doing it; the non-VO makes you read the line and (today) see the cutscene.

No, words are far more powerful.

Addai67 wrote...

No, they're not, but still they manage to convey an awful lot of
meaning even if they're not acted out.

That's a false analogy, though. There is no part of the book that is acted out, and it is all fixed. The meaning is often provided through setting that is beyond dialogue - often through the style of writing and the description of the scene. A book is nothing like a play, or a movie. It is nothing like experiencing reality, and this is what reality is.

A better analogy to a silent protagonist would be a play where one of the characters is a prop, and the line the prop utters is illustrated via a canvass shown to the audience. Of course, this analogy fails to capture the interactivity of the game, but at the very least it addresses the dissonance of the silent VO in a video-game, which the book analogy masks.

That is silly.  Just because you don't see the PC talking or doing everything doesn't mean that in the story they don't actually talk and do things.

  Perhaps our culture has gotten to the point where stories are not
"real" until Hollywood has put some overpaid, underfed teenager up in
makeup and forced him or her to puppet it.  Or video games are just slow
movies with bad graphics and annoying interruptions.

Or perhaps we are a species that has evolved with vision as our primary sense, and hearing as our secondary. Proposition and imagination, being so evolutionary recent, is less viscerally real than something that makes the brain think "real". If you'd like a detailed explanation, I would be happy to provide it.

I'd prefer to leave the pseudo-science out of it.

All I see is closed doors and yokes.

And you liked these closed doors so much that you want to have even less control over your PC?

[javierabegazo]

Locking this. There are plenty of threads like this around to migrate to