296 réponses à ce sujet

[JackFace]

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Modifié par JackFace, 11 juillet 2010 - 02:05 .

[Khayness]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

In mass effect you have no idea what your character is going to say, and even if you do you have no control over how they say it.  

That's my only concern with the game, I say a lot of things that breaks character and I go with it or just reload and say something else because selecting "What a waste of time" says that the escaped colonial slave girl should have just shot herself in the head. I mean what the hell?!

Gothic and The Witcher has voiced main characters and they say exactly what you select, I hope DA2 will feature something like those.

[JackFace]

That's understandable, certainly, but I don't think it's unfair to believe that BioWare will keep making improvements to their system. We both know that they've got great writers.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

JackFace wrote...

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Isn't what I meant.

In DA2 or ME or Alpha Protocol you can pick the "tone" of a dialogue option yes.

In DA:O I can read something like "Is your forbidden fruit forbidden?" and I can apply whatever tone I see fit.  It could be a serious tone like Alistair can be, or it can be a completely suave tone like Zevran.  Hell it could even be asked as a question like Sten would do it.

The former system limits you to the options Bioware gives you, the latter is limited by your imagination.  (And to an extent, the words that they give you to say)

[JackFace]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

JackFace wrote...

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Isn't what I meant.

In DA2 or ME or Alpha Protocol you can pick the "tone" of a dialogue option yes.

In DA:O I can read something like "Is your forbidden fruit forbidden?" and I can apply whatever tone I see fit.  It could be a serious tone like Alistair can be, or it can be a completely suave tone like Zevran.  Hell it could even be asked as a question like Sten would do it.

The former system limits you to the options Bioware gives you, the latter is limited by your imagination.  (And to an extent, the words that they give you to say)

Alright. You can say it however you want in your head, which can be a plus, but the characters are still only programmed to react as if you said it in whatever fashion the writers imagined you saying it in. I've run across several occasions in the game where I said something in what I thought was a friendly-ribbing tone only to have characters take offense as if I were genuinley insulting them. As far as NPCs go, there's no difference in the systems - you just get to be sure of the tone your character actually uses.

[Icinix]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

JackFace wrote...

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Isn't what I meant.

In DA2 or ME or Alpha Protocol you can pick the "tone" of a dialogue option yes.

In DA:O I can read something like "Is your forbidden fruit forbidden?" and I can apply whatever tone I see fit.  It could be a serious tone like Alistair can be, or it can be a completely suave tone like Zevran.  Hell it could even be asked as a question like Sten would do it.

The former system limits you to the options Bioware gives you, the latter is limited by your imagination.  (And to an extent, the words that they give you to say)

Actually I think there is implied tone with those dialogue options, the response to that particular question was playful, implying that the tone was never a serious one.  Where as other more aggressive comments or questions were only ever taken by respondents as the implied tone.  The only difference is cosmetic dialogue selection and the voicing.

[Anathemic]

JackFace wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

JackFace wrote...

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Isn't what I meant.

In DA2 or ME or Alpha Protocol you can pick the "tone" of a dialogue option yes.

In DA:O I can read something like "Is your forbidden fruit forbidden?" and I can apply whatever tone I see fit.  It could be a serious tone like Alistair can be, or it can be a completely suave tone like Zevran.  Hell it could even be asked as a question like Sten would do it.

The former system limits you to the options Bioware gives you, the latter is limited by your imagination.  (And to an extent, the words that they give you to say)

Alright. You can say it however you want in your head, which can be a plus, but the characters are still only programmed to react as if you said it in whatever fashion the writers imagined you saying it in. I've run across several occasions in the game where I said something in what I thought was a friendly-ribbing tone only to have characters take offense as if I were genuinley insulting them. As far as NPCs go, there's no difference in the systems - you just get to be sure of the tone your character actually uses.

A real-life example, when you talk to someone you have no idea what they are going to reply with, you can assume but you can't know 100 percent.
It's the same thing with role-playing in an RPG, you can control your character, but you can't control the counterpart else that is considered as god-mod.
So really, it doens't matter how the NPC reacts or not, what really matters is how you build your character and role-play into it.

[JackFace]

Anathemic wrote...

JackFace wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

JackFace wrote...

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Isn't what I meant.

In DA2 or ME or Alpha Protocol you can pick the "tone" of a dialogue option yes.

In DA:O I can read something like "Is your forbidden fruit forbidden?" and I can apply whatever tone I see fit.  It could be a serious tone like Alistair can be, or it can be a completely suave tone like Zevran.  Hell it could even be asked as a question like Sten would do it.



The former system limits you to the options Bioware gives you, the latter is limited by your imagination.  (And to an extent, the words that they give you to say)

Alright. You can say it however you want in your head, which can be a plus, but the characters are still only programmed to react as if you said it in whatever fashion the writers imagined you saying it in. I've run across several occasions in the game where I said something in what I thought was a friendly-ribbing tone only to have characters take offense as if I were genuinley insulting them. As far as NPCs go, there's no difference in the systems - you just get to be sure of the tone your character actually uses.

A real-life example, when you talk to someone you have no idea what they are going to reply with, you can assume but you can't know 100 percent.
It's the same thing with role-playing in an RPG, you can control your character, but you can't control the counterpart else that is considered as god-mod.
So really, it doens't matter how the NPC reacts or not, what really matters is how you build your character and role-play into it.

In real life, you get to decide the tone in which you say things, like you get to do in DA2. You can only guess at how you're saying something in DA:O (though it's usually pretty easy to do, a credit to the writers). In this manner, you actually have more control of your character in DA2 than you did in DA:O. As well, why do people keep assuming that you'll be able to do less role-playing and character building in DA2? There's a voiced protagonist, but it's still the same people who made DA:O, and there's no reason to believe that the gaming experience will be very different.

[Anathemic]

JackFace wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

JackFace wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

JackFace wrote...

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Isn't what I meant.

In DA2 or ME or Alpha Protocol you can pick the "tone" of a dialogue option yes.

In DA:O I can read something like "Is your forbidden fruit forbidden?" and I can apply whatever tone I see fit.  It could be a serious tone like Alistair can be, or it can be a completely suave tone like Zevran.  Hell it could even be asked as a question like Sten would do it.



The former system limits you to the options Bioware gives you, the latter is limited by your imagination.  (And to an extent, the words that they give you to say)

Alright. You can say it however you want in your head, which can be a plus, but the characters are still only programmed to react as if you said it in whatever fashion the writers imagined you saying it in. I've run across several occasions in the game where I said something in what I thought was a friendly-ribbing tone only to have characters take offense as if I were genuinley insulting them. As far as NPCs go, there's no difference in the systems - you just get to be sure of the tone your character actually uses.

A real-life example, when you talk to someone you have no idea what they are going to reply with, you can assume but you can't know 100 percent.
It's the same thing with role-playing in an RPG, you can control your character, but you can't control the counterpart else that is considered as god-mod.
So really, it doens't matter how the NPC reacts or not, what really matters is how you build your character and role-play into it.

In real life, you get to decide the tone in which you say things, like you get to do in DA2. You can only guess at how you're saying something in DA:O (though it's usually pretty easy to do, a credit to the writers). In this manner, you actually have more control of your character in DA2 than you did in DA:O. As well, why do people keep assuming that you'll be able to do less role-playing and character building in DA2? There's a voiced protagonist, but it's still the same people who made DA:O, and there's no reason to believe that the gaming experience will be very different.

You can do that in DA:O deciding which tone you can say things, as for the NPC reaction, like I said it doesn't amtter, as long as you feel like you are controlling the character.
How do you have more control over your character in DA2? There is no multiple origin stories to decide his background, its the VA's voice that is coming out, not yours, the  dialogue wheel is a paraphrased version of dialogue at best rather in DA:O I had the full script of what i'm going to say

[Khayness]

It's more likely that DA2 will feature a dialoge system where you can choose how to react, like angry/bored/curious rather than picking the line "Surrender, or not, it'll be more fun! in threatening/suave/begging/sarcastic ways.

It would be fun but the limitations are there because of the voiced character. Lots of lots of lines spoken by the voice actor and the different responses are numerous.

Modifié par Khayness, 11 juillet 2010 - 02:31 .

[Riona45]

Anathemic wrote...
There is no multiple origin stories to decide his background...

Just because there won't be DA:O style origin stories doesn't mean we won't be able to shape the character.

[MFCell]

Anathemic wrote...

JackFace wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

JackFace wrote...

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Isn't what I meant.

In DA2 or ME or Alpha Protocol you can pick the "tone" of a dialogue option yes.

In DA:O I can read something like "Is your forbidden fruit forbidden?" and I can apply whatever tone I see fit.  It could be a serious tone like Alistair can be, or it can be a completely suave tone like Zevran.  Hell it could even be asked as a question like Sten would do it.

The former system limits you to the options Bioware gives you, the latter is limited by your imagination.  (And to an extent, the words that they give you to say)

Alright. You can say it however you want in your head, which can be a plus, but the characters are still only programmed to react as if you said it in whatever fashion the writers imagined you saying it in. I've run across several occasions in the game where I said something in what I thought was a friendly-ribbing tone only to have characters take offense as if I were genuinley insulting them. As far as NPCs go, there's no difference in the systems - you just get to be sure of the tone your character actually uses.

A real-life example, when you talk to someone you have no idea what they are going to reply with, you can assume but you can't know 100 percent.
It's the same thing with role-playing in an RPG, you can control your character, but you can't control the counterpart else that is considered as god-mod.
So really, it doens't matter how the NPC reacts or not, what really matters is how you build your character and role-play into it.

Which is why having to play as Hawke, the escapee from Lothering, doesn't really interest me.  I feel more ike I'm playing a movie-game when going thru dialogue than I do when I have no idea what each outcome is.

"Do you want Hawke to be a smooth talker?" Press 1.
"Do you want Hawke to be sulky?" Press 2.
"Do you want Hawke to question the circumstances?" press 3.
You can't role-play like this.  The dialogue is just a proxy for you to move the game forward. Any time you're wondering about what to do, just pick the option on the right side, in the middle.

Conclusion - Very gamey, lacking immersive value, never makes you think about what to do next.

'Your eyes could topple mountains with thier allure." Press 1.
"Why did this happen to me?" Press 2.
"How did this happen to me?" press 3.
You are automatically role-playing in this dialogue.  You can only guess Hawke's mood, you have to really think about what's making Hawke tick, and hope others react like you thought they would.  The dialogue options both speak for themselves and beg more questions. You won't know you've hit an important subject until the actual information starts flowing or you genuinely recognize the dialogue paths to take.

Conclusion - Very Immersive, lacks "game-like" feel, must recognize important dialogue options naturally.

[Anathemic]

Riona45 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...
There is no multiple origin stories to decide his background...

Just because there won't be DA:O style origin stories doesn't mean we won't be able to shape the character.

Look at what else I said, is the VA's voice coming out, not your own, and the dialogue wheel is a paraphrased version at best on what I'm going to say.
You can shape the character sure, but all your doing is steering/guidign you are not creating the character.

[JackFace]

Anathemic wrote...

JackFace wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

JackFace wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

JackFace wrote...

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Isn't what I meant.

In DA2 or ME or Alpha Protocol you can pick the "tone" of a dialogue option yes.

In DA:O I can read something like "Is your forbidden fruit forbidden?" and I can apply whatever tone I see fit.  It could be a serious tone like Alistair can be, or it can be a completely suave tone like Zevran.  Hell it could even be asked as a question like Sten would do it.



The former system limits you to the options Bioware gives you, the latter is limited by your imagination.  (And to an extent, the words that they give you to say)

Alright. You can say it however you want in your head, which can be a plus, but the characters are still only programmed to react as if you said it in whatever fashion the writers imagined you saying it in. I've run across several occasions in the game where I said something in what I thought was a friendly-ribbing tone only to have characters take offense as if I were genuinley insulting them. As far as NPCs go, there's no difference in the systems - you just get to be sure of the tone your character actually uses.

A real-life example, when you talk to someone you have no idea what they are going to reply with, you can assume but you can't know 100 percent.
It's the same thing with role-playing in an RPG, you can control your character, but you can't control the counterpart else that is considered as god-mod.
So really, it doens't matter how the NPC reacts or not, what really matters is how you build your character and role-play into it.

In real life, you get to decide the tone in which you say things, like you get to do in DA2. You can only guess at how you're saying something in DA:O (though it's usually pretty easy to do, a credit to the writers). In this manner, you actually have more control of your character in DA2 than you did in DA:O. As well, why do people keep assuming that you'll be able to do less role-playing and character building in DA2? There's a voiced protagonist, but it's still the same people who made DA:O, and there's no reason to believe that the gaming experience will be very different.

You can do that in DA:O deciding which tone you can say things, as for the NPC reaction, like I said it doesn't amtter, as long as you feel like you are controlling the character.
How do you have more control over your character in DA2? There is no multiple origin stories to decide his background, its the VA's voice that is coming out, not yours, the  dialogue wheel is a paraphrased version of dialogue at best rather in DA:O I had the full script of what i'm going to say

But you don't actually control the way your character says it. In DA:O, you said something and believed you said it in a certain manner. Usually, the writers were able to make it to where the NPCs would react believably to whatever tone you imagined yourself saying it in. As I stated, there were times when I imagined my character saying something in a certain way but was shown that he said it in a manner I didn't intend for him to say it in. With DA2, you'll be able to choose the way your character says what it says, instead of just hoping it says it in the tone you imagine it will.

As for the backgrounds - no one has any idea how much control over the backstory we're going to get. We know that Hawke was a survivor of the blight. Beyond that, we could get any number of choices, as we did in ME1. We also don't know what the dialogue wheel will be like. Already we know that there will be a difference in the ability to select your tone. Assuming it will be exactly like ME when it's already different and improved doesn't make sense.

[Khayness]

MFCell wrote...

Conclusion - Very Immersive, lacks "game-like" feel, must recognize important dialogue options naturally.

Exactly! It would have been fun if the Mass Effect chioces weren't Top=Goody Two Shoes, Bottom=Agressive Jerk, Middle=Indecisive ****** but mixed up all the way.

[JackFace]

MFCell wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

JackFace wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

JackFace wrote...

That's not true, either. They've said that, in DA2, you select the manner in which your character says what you choose to say.

Isn't what I meant.

In DA2 or ME or Alpha Protocol you can pick the "tone" of a dialogue option yes.

In DA:O I can read something like "Is your forbidden fruit forbidden?" and I can apply whatever tone I see fit.  It could be a serious tone like Alistair can be, or it can be a completely suave tone like Zevran.  Hell it could even be asked as a question like Sten would do it.

The former system limits you to the options Bioware gives you, the latter is limited by your imagination.  (And to an extent, the words that they give you to say)

Alright. You can say it however you want in your head, which can be a plus, but the characters are still only programmed to react as if you said it in whatever fashion the writers imagined you saying it in. I've run across several occasions in the game where I said something in what I thought was a friendly-ribbing tone only to have characters take offense as if I were genuinley insulting them. As far as NPCs go, there's no difference in the systems - you just get to be sure of the tone your character actually uses.

A real-life example, when you talk to someone you have no idea what they are going to reply with, you can assume but you can't know 100 percent.
It's the same thing with role-playing in an RPG, you can control your character, but you can't control the counterpart else that is considered as god-mod.
So really, it doens't matter how the NPC reacts or not, what really matters is how you build your character and role-play into it.

Which is why having to play as Hawke, the escapee from Lothering, doesn't really interest me.  I feel more ike I'm playing a movie-game when going thru dialogue than I do when I have no idea what each outcome is.

"Do you want Hawke to be a smooth talker?" Press 1.
"Do you want Hawke to be sulky?" Press 2.
"Do you want Hawke to question the circumstances?" press 3.
You can't role-play like this.  The dialogue is just a proxy for you to move the game forward. Any time you're wondering about what to do, just pick the option on the right side, in the middle.

Conclusion - Very gamey, lacking immersive value, never makes you think about what to do next.

'Your eyes could topple mountains with thier allure." Press 1.
"Why did this happen to me?" Press 2.
"How did this happen to me?" press 3.
You are automatically role-playing in this dialogue.  You can only guess Hawke's mood, you have to really think about what's making Hawke tick, and hope others react like you thought they would.  The dialogue options both speak for themselves and beg more questions. You won't know you've hit an important subject until the actual information starts flowing or you genuinely recognize the dialogue paths to take.

Conclusion - Very Immersive, lacks "game-like" feel, must recognize important dialogue options naturally.

Again, we don't know what the dialogue wheel will be. Since this is Dragon Age, it's fair to assume that it will be akin to DA:O's system of dialogue. And, again, you're demonstrating why you actually have less control. You can only guess at Hawke's mood with DA:O's system, but you get to choose his mood with DA2's system, based on the details given so far. I understand that everyone has their own feeling's on ME's dialogue system, but ME's system isn't DA2's system.

[Anathemic]

JackFace wrote...

But you don't actually control the way your character says it. In DA:O, you said something and believed you said it in a certain manner. Usually, the writers were able to make it to where the NPCs would react believably to whatever tone you imagined yourself saying it in. As I stated, there were times when I imagined my character saying something in a certain way but was shown that he said it in a manner I didn't intend for him to say it in. With DA2, you'll be able to choose the way your character says what it says, instead of just hoping it says it in the tone you imagine it will.

As for the backgrounds - no one has any idea how much control over the backstory we're going to get. We know that Hawke was a survivor of the blight. Beyond that, we could get any number of choices, as we did in ME1. We also don't know what the dialogue wheel will be like. Already we know that there will be a difference in the ability to select your tone. Assuming it will be exactly like ME when it's already different and improved doesn't make sense.

To the first paragraph: Role-playing, you are role-playing the character, saying that you hope and believe is frankly and insult to the definition of role-playing. It seems now that modern role-players need a handicap to know what's going on when your character says something <_<

To the second paragraph: Honestly, how many dialogue tone options can you put on the wheel format and still make it feel smooth? You can't put sarcastic, negative, and evil in on the same side, because they are all essentially what we call 'bad'. In a classic wheel format we need a 'good' 'neutral' and 'bad' side and there's really no room for any varaitions of them. Not to mention is basically paraphrasing what we are going to say.

Modifié par Anathemic, 11 juillet 2010 - 02:44 .

[Sidney]

Anathemic wrote...
A real-life example, when you talk to someone you have no idea what they are going to reply with, you can assume but you can't know 100 percent.
It's the same thing with role-playing in an RPG, you can control your character, but you can't control the counterpart else that is considered as god-mod.
So really, it doens't matter how the NPC reacts or not, what really matters is how you build your character and role-play into it.

...but in real-life people do respond properly (in most cases) to your tone. It is what humans do. The DAO there is no tone.  You have no control over what your character is saying in any real sense.

"Let's kill 'em all"

Is that a question? Is it an endorsement? Is is sarcasm? Is is said with revulsion? There's no way of you knowing how the NPC will read it because there is no way you can impart the proper tone. The NPC doesn't respond to that statement based on your character because they will only respond one way - based on a preset meaning the developers gave that statement.

Frankly the way you understand the "tone" is by reading the other dialog choices and figuring out what option that is because no matter how you slice it there are good>evil>indifferent>interrogative reponses on most dialog choices that matter in this game.

[Anathemic]

Sidney wrote...

Anathemic wrote...
A real-life example, when you talk to someone you have no idea what they are going to reply with, you can assume but you can't know 100 percent.
It's the same thing with role-playing in an RPG, you can control your character, but you can't control the counterpart else that is considered as god-mod.
So really, it doens't matter how the NPC reacts or not, what really matters is how you build your character and role-play into it.

...but in real-life people do respond properly (in most cases) to your tone. It is what humans do. The DAO there is no tone.  You have no control over what your character is saying in any real sense.

"Let's kill 'em all"

Is that a question? Is it an endorsement? Is is sarcasm? Is is said with revulsion? There's no way of you knowing how the NPC will read it because there is no way you can impart the proper tone. The NPC doesn't respond to that statement based on your character because they will only respond one way - based on a preset meaning the developers gave that statement.

Frankly the way you understand the "tone" is by reading the other dialog choices and figuring out what option that is because no matter how you slice it there are good>evil>indifferent>interrogative reponses on most dialog choices that matter in this game.

Role-playing <_< does no one understand this?

[Riona45]

Anathemic wrote...

Look at what else I said...

I did. 

You can shape the character sure, but all your doing is steering/guidign you are not creating the character.

Meh, I disagree with you.  If what you say is true, then in most CRPGs you can't create your own character, because most of them only have one "origin."

[Khayness]

Anathemic wrote...

Role-playing <_< does no one understand this?

Maybe the definition was changed to "select an option from a few" while we weren't looking.

[JackFace]

Anathemic wrote...

JackFace wrote...

But you don't actually control the way your character says it. In DA:O, you said something and believed you said it in a certain manner. Usually, the writers were able to make it to where the NPCs would react believably to whatever tone you imagined yourself saying it in. As I stated, there were times when I imagined my character saying something in a certain way but was shown that he said it in a manner I didn't intend for him to say it in. With DA2, you'll be able to choose the way your character says what it says, instead of just hoping it says it in the tone you imagine it will.

As for the backgrounds - no one has any idea how much control over the backstory we're going to get. We know that Hawke was a survivor of the blight. Beyond that, we could get any number of choices, as we did in ME1. We also don't know what the dialogue wheel will be like. Already we know that there will be a difference in the ability to select your tone. Assuming it will be exactly like ME when it's already different and improved doesn't make sense.

To the first paragraph: Role-playing, you are role-playing the character, saying that you hope and believe is frankly and insult to the definition of role-playing. It seems now that modern role-players need a handicap to know what's going on when your character says something <_<

To the second paragraph: Honestly, how many dialogue tone options can you put on the wheel format and still make it feel smooth? You can't put sarcastic, negative, and evil in on the same side, because they are all essentially what we call 'bad'. In a classic wheel format we need a 'good' 'neutral' and 'bad' side and there's really no room for any varaitions of them. Not to mention is basically paraphrasing what we are going to say.

Seriously? It's not insulting to anyone. All I did was point out the fact that you don't know the tone in which your character speaks in DA:O. Usually, you're best guess will do, but the character still only says it in a certain way - the way the programmers designed it to. You are unable to select the tone in which you say things. In DA2, you'll be able to select the tone. This is an improvement.

For your second paragraph: Honetsly, neither you or I know. BioWare is using a dialogue sphere - that's all we know. We don't know how many choices there will be or how they'll arrange them. Just assuming the worst isn't the same thing as having a good argument against it. As well, we don't know if it will be paraphrasing or whole sentences. ME was based heavily on morality and DA was not. That suggests that it simply won't be good/bad.

[Anathemic]

Riona45 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Look at what else I said...

I did. 

You can shape the character sure, but all your doing is steering/guidign you are not creating the character.

Meh, I disagree with you.  If what you say is true, then in most CRPGs you can't create your own character, because most of them only have one "origin."

Thank you, this is why DA:O was so successfully popular amognst us, this is why these debate threads exist, it's because DA:O was different, this is why we love it, this is way we don't like DA2 forcing this massive transition

[JackFace]

Khayness wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Role-playing <_< does no one understand this?

Maybe the definition was changed to "select an option from a few" while we weren't looking.

That's all you do in DA:O. 

[Riona45]

Anathemic wrote...
Role-playing <_< does no one understand this?

Thank GOD you're here to show everyone the light, you special little snowflake.