296 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

It's called Roleplaying.  Some of us invent personality's, manners of speaking, moral codes etc for our characters that are OUTSIDE of the actual game, and we make our decisions in the game based on what we've established our character on. 

And some of us call that fan-fiction. I get that this is really important to how you play games, and what you consider role-playing. But to some of us, role-playing is having the world react to us, instead of us making stuff up that happens to not logically contradict the game.

[Riona45]

Khayness wrote...



I'd like to point out the "we don't know yet" and "possible" words before you throw me in the whiners bag.

I didn't know I had a "whiners bag", but fair enough.

[In Exile]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Yes you can only say predetermined things, but the difference is you can determine HOW that character says it.  In ME, you're at the mercy of the voice acting.  

With DA:O's system just about any character can come to life, and there are very few instances where you're forced into saying things that you may not want to say. (a credit to the writers)

In mass effect you have no idea what your character is going to say, and even if you do you have no control over how they say it.  

In DA:O' system, all the characters are dead puppets because you have to imagine what they're saying, and oftentime your dialogue choice is completely ignored, with several lines leading to the exact same outcome (Huzzah, like ME!). The only difference is that in ME the whole interaction is dynamic and you're part of it, whereas in DA:O you get to watch static puppet.

[Anathemic]

Riona45 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...
CRPG's is basically a simplfied PnP RPG on a virtual screen. In PnP I can create my character, determine who my character is, personality of character, speech of character.

CRPG like DA:O I can create my character, I can determine who my character is from various origin stories, I can choose the personality of the character by role-playing what I have from the ambiguous dialogue options, I can determine the speech of my character mute by simply roleplaying (imagining it)

CRPGs don't give you nearly the amount of freedom that PnP games do.  In a PnP game you don't necessarily choose one of six origin stories, you can literally be just about anything as long as the DM (and to an extent, the other players) agree to allow it.  You literally talk for your character, you don't select options.  In a CRPG everything must be scripted ahead of time before you get to touch it, meaning that there are ultimately set paths through the story.  In a PnP, you literally create the story as you go along.

This is why I find it amusing how you like to go on about roleplaying and how only you (and I guess a select few) "get it."  You seem to have quite a limited view on what a PnP game actually is, and think DA:O seemlessly replicates the PnP experience.

Look at what I bolded in my quote.. simplified the past tense of simplify. I did not state anywhere that CRPGS are replicas of PnP RPGs I say they are simplified versions of it, meaning restrictions.
Sure DA:O has restrictions but it has the advantage of being on a visual screen and solo-play. Though you can't be 'anyone' who you want you can be one of the 6 predetermined origins and make your character from there, it gives us choice.

In DA2 our choice is very limited, why? There's only one origin story and from that we can only create our character from that, but not even that: Hawke is Hawke, you are referred to as Hawke always and not an ambiguous title to allow customization, no you are always Hawke. And not to mention that Hawke has his/her own voice but not yours own.

Modifié par Anathemic, 11 juillet 2010 - 03:47 .

[JackFace]

Because the same way there isn't any option to join up with Saren in
ME1 because it's totally out of Shepard's galaxy saving predeterminated
personality to do so.

Nothing suggests that Hawke will have a predetermined personality. Why would change he have one? This is DA, not ME.


Look at the bolded statements, it's simaler to Mass Effect's that
means it will have a 'Good' 'Bad' 'Neutral' optiosn for it, how do i
know? Because you can't have 3 negative remarks on one side of the
wheel, else it will ruin the smoothness of picking dialogue options if
you want to be a nice character, vice versa. The dialogue optiosn will
be paraphrased, it won't be written out exact but paraphrased,
simplified. Basic intent, again paraphrasing. Focuses on interaction of
the two characters, rather than roleplaying it out by a simple
read/analyzation. And not to mention that the characters are
predetermined

I've bolded the ridiculous parts of your statement for you. You know, the parts where you assume things without any evidence.

[JackFace]

I really don't think there's anything else we can say to her, Riona. Willing ignorance cannot easily be overcome.

[Jestina]

I don't want to play another Shepard. I want my own character to create how I like it. I don't want some bearded beefcake Shepard clone like we are going to get with Dragon Effect.

[Khayness]

JackFace wrote...

Nothing suggests that Hawke will have a predetermined personality. Why would change he have one? This is DA, not ME.

I know, I'm just trying to explain why I think that a preset character can limit the role playing options.

[JackFace]

I agree completely. Fortunately, there's nothing to suggest we're playing a preset character.

[Riona45]

Anathemic wrote...
Hawke is Hawke, you are referred to as Hawke always and not an ambiguous title to allow customization, no you are always Hawke.

Department of Redundancy Department.

Modifié par Riona45, 11 juillet 2010 - 03:53 .

[Khayness]

JackFace wrote...

I agree completely. Fortunately, there's nothing to suggest we're playing a preset character.

Previous experience dealing with fully voiced main heroes does suggest.

[Anathemic]

JackFace wrote...

Because the same way there isn't any option to join up with Saren in
ME1 because it's totally out of Shepard's galaxy saving predeterminated
personality to do so.

Nothing suggests that Hawke will have a predetermined personality. Why would change he have one? This is DA, not ME.


Look at the bolded statements, it's simaler to Mass Effect's that
means it will have a 'Good' 'Bad' 'Neutral' optiosn for it, how do i
know? Because you can't have 3 negative remarks on one side of the
wheel, else it will ruin the smoothness of picking dialogue options if
you want to be a nice character, vice versa. The dialogue optiosn will
be paraphrased, it won't be written out exact but paraphrased,
simplified. Basic intent, again paraphrasing. Focuses on interaction of
the two characters, rather than roleplaying it out by a simple
read/analyzation. And not to mention that the characters are
predetermined

I've bolded the ridiculous parts of your statement for you. You know, the parts where you assume things without any evidence.

I gave you the damn quote from the GI informer.
"Dragon Age II uses a conversation system similar to Mass Effect's... " We expect the same if not a simaler system
"...players select paraphrased versions of the dialogue from a wheel. " The wheel is comfirmed and is simaler to Mass Effect's maybe the same or simaler dialogue format?!?!
"An icon in the middle of the wheel even illustrates the line's basic
intent (like aggressive or sarcastice)..." Basic intent... paraphrasing
"...focus more on the
interaction rather than reading and analyzing your dialogue choices." Now I have to be force-fed paraphrased versions of dialogue to get my interaction?

[JackFace]

I give up.

[DragonRageGT]

I'm here because I want to be here! And yes, we'll be playing another Shepa... Shepa Hawke... very naive to believe differently...

Oh.. Shepard doesn't have a pre-determined personality... we can chose between war hero, sole survivor and space colonist and make him a goodie goodie paragon or a badazz renegade, can't we?

Modifié par RageGT, 11 juillet 2010 - 03:57 .

[Khayness]

What were we arguing about anyways?

I know I've tried to tell my definition of roleplaying.

[JackFace]

It's naive to believe that we'll be playing another Shepard.

[Anathemic]

Khayness wrote...

What were we arguing about anyways?
I know I've tried to tell my definition of roleplaying.

We both did, I think yours came out strongest

[JackFace]

Previous experience dealing with fully voiced main heroes does suggest.

And previous experience with Dragon Age suggests otherwise.

[Rubbish Hero]

Rage doesn't look very good, ID haven't made a good game in a while.

Mad Max setting done to death.

[DragonRageGT]

JackFace wrote...

Previous experience dealing with fully voiced main heroes does suggest.

And previous experience with Dragon Age suggests otherwise.

And that's the point. From the announcement, DA2 is FAR from Dragon Age previous experience. Or can you play a Dwarf and and Elf in DA2?

[Khayness]

Now let's take our leave and let the posterity decide the outcome of this argument.

[JackFace]

Wow, Rage. You obviously know much more than I do about the game. Care to tell us some neat specifics that let you know that DA2 will be wildly different than DA:O?

[Addai]

MFCell wrote...

Which is why having to play as Hawke, the escapee from Lothering, doesn't really interest me.  I feel more ike I'm playing a movie-game when going thru dialogue than I do when I have no idea what each outcome is.

"Do you want Hawke to be a smooth talker?" Press 1.
"Do you want Hawke to be sulky?" Press 2.
"Do you want Hawke to question the circumstances?" press 3.
You can't role-play like this.  The dialogue is just a proxy for you to move the game forward. Any time you're wondering about what to do, just pick the option on the right side, in the middle.

Conclusion - Very gamey, lacking immersive value, never makes you think about what to do next.

'Your eyes could topple mountains with thier allure." Press 1.
"Why did this happen to me?" Press 2.
"How did this happen to me?" press 3.
You are automatically role-playing in this dialogue.  You can only guess Hawke's mood, you have to really think about what's making Hawke tick, and hope others react like you thought they would.  The dialogue options both speak for themselves and beg more questions. You won't know you've hit an important subject until the actual information starts flowing or you genuinely recognize the dialogue paths to take.

Conclusion - Very Immersive, lacks "game-like" feel, must recognize important dialogue options naturally.

Excellent post.

I'm new to Bioware games and fairly new to video games in general (coming out of text RPG), so it's hard for me to put into words why DAO is different than other games I've tried.  You do a good job laying out why I find the DAO system superior to Mass Effect, which I could not like even though I really wanted to.

Even though I'm new to Bioware with this game, I would still have liked to say that the first game was good enough that I could put some faith in them for DA2 even though voiced PC/ pre-determined story/ playing a human are all unappealing.  But everything that has come out since the original game has been a disappointment.  Loyalty needs to be rewarded and built upon.  It seems to me that what is happening is that DAO was the "introductory rate" that builds buzz and they're going to try to see if people will continue to buy even with a watered-down and more expensive product, while also hoping to lure more of the idiocracy which wants to have the story handed to them on a flashy plate rather than actually think while playing a game.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juillet 2010 - 04:03 .

[DragonRageGT]

JackFace wrote...

Wow, Rage. You obviously know much more than I do about the game. Care to tell us some neat specifics that let you know that DA2 will be wildly different than DA:O?

Let's see...

Baldur's Gate 1: you can plays as Human, Elf, Half Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Dwarf, in a variety of classes and builts.

Baldur's Gate 2: you can plays as Human, Elf, Half Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Dwarf, in a variety of classes and builts.

NWN: you can plays as Human, Elf, Half Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Dwarf, in a variety of classes and builts.

NWN2: you can plays as Human, Elf, Half Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Dwarf, in a variety of classes and builts. (and more races too)

Dragon Age: you can play as you can plays as Human, Elf, Dwarf.

Dragon Age 2:  you can play as Human.

Modifié par RageGT, 11 juillet 2010 - 04:06 .

[JackFace]

Oh. And here I had thought you weren't just pulling things out of your arse. You wound me!