296 réponses à ce sujet

[Khayness]

tbsking wrote...

But wait a minute. That makes perfect sense, but DAO sold astoundingly well. Why would they change the formula as severely as it sounds?

Because there are limitations in front of a more immersive storytelling the developers want to make.

[Kalfear]

tbsking wrote...

But wait a minute. That makes perfect sense, but DAO sold astoundingly well. Why would they change the formula as severely as it sounds?

It did????

ROFL, go look at LPPrince post in other thread just now

Apprently DA:O sold terrible and the changes were mandatory because of how little it sold!
ROFL!

The blind pro crowd is just so filled with delussion they will tell any tale to try and sound like they have a clue!

[tbsking]

Khayness wrote...

tbsking wrote...

But wait a minute. That makes perfect sense, but DAO sold astoundingly well. Why would they change the formula as severely as it sounds?

Because there are limitations in front of a more immersive storytelling the developers want to make.

Granted, but DAO was insanely immersive as it was. I understand changes to console combat, and graphics and other features that were maligned universally, but when it sold very well anyways, and was able to tell a good story why change it to something that has obviously ruffled quite a few feathers within the fanbase?

[alb84]

they want to make a Dragon Age about the life of this Hawke.. fine, no problem... but what I really want to see some day is a REAL SEQUEL of DAO with warden & friends (this does not necessarily means that has to be involved another blight... any kind of adventure would be nice.. maybe, why not even a war between countries?, dont know  XD ) and I believe that a lot of people will agree in that point, because if they doesn't had the intention to continue the story... why all these epilogues ? making you think that the story of the warden will continue in future releases ? it really disaponted me because I have the feeling that DA2 and DAO only will have in common the map of Thedas XD, maybe I am wrong, but based on the info I read so far.. that's what I think

Also worries me the fact that you can only be human m/f ... this is pointless on a fantasy RPG like Dragon Age, one thing I was hoping for DA2 was being able to choose betwen more races (or at least the same ^^ ) and classes (not only, warrior, rogue, mage) , and probably the responsible of that human-centric DA2 is that famous "Voiced PC" XD personally I would prefer more races than this voice.

About the ME dialog wheel.... dont know... but  I think that the DAO dialog is good enough.. don't need to change that.

I'm not saying that is going to be a bad game, but at this moment.... 
disapointed... one thing is evolution, other thing is drastic change.. and as
far as I can see, you are changing DAO to a whole new game based on the same lore. And at this point, it seems like DA2 is going to be another movie just like ME2, instead of the RPG that was DAO

Don't know... what really bothers me is  the fact that the warden story seems to be ended (without a proper ending in DAO I must say) and replaced by a new story envolved arround this Hawke who has his own default backround, bffff... it's probably because I was hoping for a continuation of the Origins warden, but I really don't care about the life of  this Hawke, and my interest in DA2... lost.



sorry for my bad english :S

[tbsking]

alb84, I can't believe how absolutely, positively right you are. I feel the absolute exact same way. They did leave a lot of story unfinished and the immediate assumption amongst fans after its release was that these dangling threads would be tied up in the sequel. Here they go for a loop and introduce a brand new character said to really have little to do with the events in the first game, having his own story in a different locale and all.



My real question is as thus: why are they changing everything about the first game that was much loved by fans and critics? The fact they're tossing the Origins, which were the main gimmick of the first game, they're tossing a lot of customization, which is really a necessity in a fantasy RPG, and they're tossing the silent hero, which was a major draw for hardcore fans, all tells me that either BioWare has lost their collective mind or that they aren't giving us the full skinny. Something about this just seems way too off to me.

[BallaZs]

-Semper- wrote...

Ecael wrote...

You do realize why Blizzard was considering forcing almost everyone to post on their forums with their real names, right?

at least blizz fears their fanbase (or listen to them) and canceled this "feature". seems like you missed lots of information^^

As I've seen BioWare has nothing to do with 'listening to the fans'
The ideas which ppl came up was simply stupid. (Theres a few exception)
Some of them want to customize the companions... WTF?

Why dont we trust Bioware, and start complain about every idea that they had came up.
Let them do what they have to, we can't except that they would put every idea into DA2.
Have faith in them, and stop telling these stupid theories about ME2 and DA2...

[BallaZs]

tbsking wrote...

alb84, I can't believe how absolutely, positively right you are. I feel the absolute exact same way. They did leave a lot of story unfinished and the immediate assumption amongst fans after its release was that these dangling threads would be tied up in the sequel. Here they go for a loop and introduce a brand new character said to really have little to do with the events in the first game, having his own story in a different locale and all.

My real question is as thus: why are they changing everything about the first game that was much loved by fans and critics? The fact they're tossing the Origins, which were the main gimmick of the first game, they're tossing a lot of customization, which is really a necessity in a fantasy RPG, and they're tossing the silent hero, which was a major draw for hardcore fans, all tells me that either BioWare has lost their collective mind or that they aren't giving us the full skinny. Something about this just seems way too off to me.

Anyway that makes sense as well...
Well, gues we have to wait for mor info, and maybe they'll make another expanison for DA:O (But i doubt that)
Let's just wait, and hope for a great game like DAO was.

[wwwwowwww]

I've read a lot of things from the little tidbit on the DA:2 website, to the Devs responses here in the forums and besides not being able to chose the race of my character and their name it doesn't seem like the game is stretching so terribly much.

DG has stated that DA: 2 is not ME and the conversation system while basically the same as the one use din ME will offer you a lot more choices than ME apparantly did.

It does seem that this game will be a lot less linear as your decisions are the things that drive the course of the story and build your legend.

I will give the game a chance at least, who knows it just might turn out to be the one game I've been waiting for to come around. If I don't like it, well then so be it, but I'm at least going to give it a chance with an open mind.

[-Semper-]

BallaZs wrote...

As I've seen BioWare has nothing to do with 'listening to the fans'
The ideas which ppl came up was simply stupid. (Theres a few exception)
Some of them want to customize the companions... WTF?

Why dont we trust Bioware, and start complain about every idea that they had came up.
Let them do what they have to, we can't except that they would put every idea into DA2.
Have faith in them, and stop telling these stupid theories about ME2 and DA2...

that was not meant to be serious. anyway i know that there are lots of retards out there complaining about things which are not official and just their personal assumption. when i am critisizing the voice over and the limited dialogues linked to that situation then there's nothing wrong or absolutely false with that, as it is proved over the last years. i played all those games back then and nowadays and see the changes made due to the different presentation and the mutated fanbase (or those who will become the fanbase). i also know that you have to make those changes or else you won't sell the numbers needed to run such a huge company.

it's just like the casualization over the last few years is a bit too much. it's like today's gamers are a bunch of whining sissies who fear to death being challanged. in the past games were that hard, you have to work your way through to finish them, which also leaves a nice warm feeling of satisfaction after completion. now only entertainment is important. instant heal, instant resurrection, no deaths, simplified fights and the like are only there to keep you fast paced.

there's only one game to break the habits: demon's souls - this for sure feels like a classic

Modifié par -Semper-, 11 juillet 2010 - 10:41 .

[snfonseka]

I personally don't mind what they did to ME2 regarding combat game-play. What I don't like about ME2 is the linear storyline and reduced quality of the story compared to ME1.



I don't think many of the players are don't like any changes. What they don't like the changes that will take DA aware from traditional RPG element. After all BW once mentioned that, "dragon age would be spiritual successor to Baldurs gate "....

[DragonRageGT]

I wouldn't mind if they release a "Dragon Age:The Hawke Saga" stand alone game they way they want but also a Dragon Age 2 with improvements on the original DA:O and not radical changes. I mean, come on, dialogue wheel? Fixed race for main char? WTF, SHEPA HAWKE???

[Sidney]

tbsking wrote...

We do have to expect a sparse dialogue format because voice acting is expensive. The more lines, the more possible results, the more they have to record and pay for. If you limit the lines to 'nice', 'professional' and 'mean' then you save money by reducing the amount of lines that need to be recorded and by limiting the number of lines that a player won't hear on any given playthrough.

Just consider the number of lines you don't get to hear in DAO.

Yeah and most of them broke down into nice, professional and mean or some set of them.

At this point you are talking about dialog choices and while people rail about fewer choices (not in this case total in the game but per conversation) the wheel allows for 6 options and normally 4. Now, how many times did the menu present you with more than 4 options? How many more than 6?  The wheel doesn't effectively limit your dialog options unless you think there were a lot of dialog options where you had 7 choices.

The wheel is a menu structure nothing else but people are acting like rather than being a UI convention it is something more meaningful. Rather you use a traditional file structure or a hyperbolic tree doesn't change the nature of the information you are seeking but rather how you get to it. 

I fired up the Dalish Elf origins and here are some sample dialogs leaving aside things like merchant banter which we all have to agree has no issues. The very first lines on finding the Shem:
1. Kill them - what do I care? The others will never know.
2. Let them go. You judge a human too harshly.
3. Let's find out what they are doing here
4. Give them a warning. Killing them would only bring trouble.

OK, so we have Evil, Good, Inquiry, Neutral. We also have options that don't fit what I want to say. Now those dialogs aren't impossible on the wheel. "Kill them", "Let them go", What are you doing", "Give Warning". Simple clean and no change. I'm sure we'll get the "But I don't know why I want to kill them with out the supporting phrase" crowd but of course you don't get 3 "Kill them" options with different motivations. If you are going to kill them the why is already set in either voiced or menu driven formats.

After the first battle with the female mage:
1. I'm fine. Why do you ask?
2. Nothing I won't recover from.
3. Stop fussing over me.

WTF do any of these really mean? Depending upon the tone any of them could be playful, irrirated or just blah. I have no idea which one is the "Hey I sort of like you" option or which one is the "F' off and die you nagging $%^&" option. Now on the wheel it might be "Inquisitive", "Indifferent", "Irritated" and those options actually tell me MORE in this case than the menu options do.

[-Semper-]

Sidney wrote...

The wheel doesn't effectively limit your dialog options unless you think there were a lot of dialog options where you had 7 choices.

you won't get it, do you? the wheel is not the limiting factor, but the voice over bioware has to provide for every option. with recorded voices every line is like 10 times more expensive then just the plain text. so throughout the whole game there will be less and shorter dialogues, also options will be reduced. look at those old games. there were tons of chitchatting speeches. now there is no room because of the set budget. more or less every dialogue has to be straight forward and important to the story.

Modifié par -Semper-, 11 juillet 2010 - 03:35 .

[Sidney]

-Semper- wrote...

you won't get it, do you? the wheel is not the limiting factor, but the voice over bioware has to provide for every option. with recorded voices every line is like 10 times more expensive then just the plain text. so throughout the whole game there will be less and shorter dialogues, also options will be reduced. look at those old games. there were tons of chitchatting speeches. now there is no room because of the set budget. more or less every dialogue has to be straight forward and important to the story.

Again, ME lines of dialog > BG lines of dialog.

So tell me again about those old games.

[Ecael]

Kalfear wrote...

tbsking wrote...

But wait a minute. That makes perfect sense, but DAO sold astoundingly well. Why would they change the formula as severely as it sounds?

It did????

ROFL, go look at LPPrince post in other thread just now

Apprently DA:O sold terrible and the changes were mandatory because of how little it sold!
ROFL!

The blind pro crowd is just so filled with delussion they will tell any tale to try and sound like they have a clue!

Disappointed massively with Mass Effect 2

And the tales coming from the Mass Effect crowd:

Ecael wrote...

ME2 doesn't sell well: That's because they're not appealing to the RPG fans!
ME2 sells well: That's because they're appealing to the dumb masses!
ME2 sells the same as ME1: That's because their appealing to the masses didn't work!

Let me adjust that for next year:

Ecael wrote...

DA2 doesn't sell well: That's because they're not appealing to the RPG fans!
DA2 sells well: That's because they're appealing to the dumb masses!
DA2 sells the same as ME1: That's because their appealing to the masses didn't work!

[Tooneyman]

[quote]Ecael wrote...

DA2 doesn't sell well: That's because they're not appealing to the RPG fans!
DA2 sells well: That's because they're appealing to the dumb masses!
DA2 sells the same as ME1: That's because their appealing to the masses didn't work![/quote][/quote]

But finally does sell well do to the fact people finally changed their minds years later and couldn't get enough of it.

[Ecael]

Kalfear wrote...

ROFL, go look at LPPrince post in other thread just now

Apprently DA:O sold terrible and the changes were mandatory because of how little it sold!

All were very successful after 4 weeks of release on the X-Box 360 console.

Getting accurate sales data from the PC is difficult due to Steam, Impulse and Direct2Drive.

[In Exile]

tbsking wrote...

For instance, in my Human Noble Origin, I established that my character was a dutiful noble, eager to take up his father's Teyrnir and was fairly optimistic about the course of the war. After Arl Howe's betrayal he became cold and introverted and would not allow anyone to forget that his family had been betrayed.

I did all that through "role-playing" the dialogue options. Certainly some are written in a presumed tone, but that's rectified by just picking the options closest to what I really mean to say, and mentally adding the inflections. Just by grace of the fact that an actor is being paid to speak it, dialogue options in DA2 are going to be far more limited.

No, what you did was use your imagination to write fan-fiction. It's awesom that you want to use your imagination to write fan-fiction. Using our imagination to write fan-finction is not what everyone wants. Shocking, I know. Some of us have awesome imaginations. Personally, I come up with stories I like way more than anything Bioware does because they're super-tailored to me. If I wanted to use my imagination, I'd demand a block of legos, a copy of the script/screenplay, and leave it at that.

But we want to play a video-game in an audio-visiual medium. This means that the audio-visual medium is crucial to the game itself. And the ability to write fan-fiction in it is non-existent.

Take the moment Alistair tells you that he's related to Maric. One of the dialogue options you have is to the effect of "You're going to tell me you're an idiot." This sounds like banter, as opposed to insult. But in game, it's delivered as an insult. 

The writing in game is interpreted roughly as the programmers and designers intend. Often, three or four lines of dialogue lead to the same outcome. It is just like Mass Effect, but since there is no VO, they can write empty options there to make you somehow think there is choice.

I get that you like fan-fiction. But don't pretend as if this was some high and mighty virtue of cRPGs.

[Samb84]

alb84 wrote...

they want to make a Dragon Age about the life of this Hawke.. fine, no problem... but what I really want to see some day is a REAL SEQUEL of DAO with warden & friends (this does not necessarily means that has to be involved another blight... any kind of adventure would be nice.. maybe, why not even a war between countries?, dont know  XD ) and I believe that a lot of people will agree in that point, because if they doesn't had the intention to continue the story... why all these epilogues ? making you think that the story of the warden will continue in future releases ? it really disaponted me because I have the feeling that DA2 and DAO only will have in common the map of Thedas XD, maybe I am wrong, but based on the info I read so far.. that's what I think

Also worries me the fact that you can only be human m/f ... this is pointless on a fantasy RPG like Dragon Age, one thing I was hoping for DA2 was being able to choose betwen more races (or at least the same ^^ ) and classes (not only, warrior, rogue, mage) , and probably the responsible of that human-centric DA2 is that famous "Voiced PC" XD personally I would prefer more races than this voice.

About the ME dialog wheel.... dont know... but  I think that the DAO dialog is good enough.. don't need to change that.

I'm not saying that is going to be a bad game, but at this moment.... 
disapointed... one thing is evolution, other thing is drastic change.. and as
far as I can see, you are changing DAO to a whole new game based on the same lore. And at this point, it seems like DA2 is going to be another movie just like ME2, instead of the RPG that was DAO

Don't know... what really bothers me is  the fact that the warden story seems to be ended (without a proper ending in DAO I must say) and replaced by a new story envolved arround this Hawke who has his own default backround, bffff... it's probably because I was hoping for a continuation of the Origins warden, but I really don't care about the life of  this Hawke, and my interest in DA2... lost.



sorry for my bad english :S

I agree with most of this,

The thing is that I cannot understand is why they would release info like this and then just say now you have to wait awhile for more...

expecially when info is basically saying that we are releasing a new version of DA and have changed most of it...

We had a great backstory to our character in DA:O which changed how people in the world interacted with you... thats cut...

You could choose from these races... thats also cut...

Some of you liked stay in camp trying out different conversation options... thats cut... now we have blue (good) and red (bad) options... (will probably be better but info is that they are going to use ME wheel and thats basically it)

Once you finished Awakening you read that your hero left to continue his adventure elseware... yeah no ignore that.. we have this hawke guy now...

We hade this classical combat style which some of us liked (I did) thats cut and we have changed that... (since everything else is taken from ME is this too?) (I really look forward to hide behind boxes and wait for the opportunity to cut my enemies)

I know this is extremely negative but I just wanted to get this out. (Feel a little better now)

What I mostly are afraid of is the race option... which in an action rpg can be acceptable but in a pure rpg not really.. 

Modifié par Samb84, 11 juillet 2010 - 04:45 .

[errant_knight]

[quote]Tooneyman wrote...


[quote]Ecael wrote...

DA2 doesn't sell well: That's because they're not appealing to the RPG fans!
DA2 sells well: That's because they're appealing to the dumb masses!
DA2 sells the same as ME1: That's because their appealing to the masses didn't work![/quote][/quote]

But finally does sell well do to the fact people finally changed their minds years later and couldn't get enough of it. [/quote]

Or they find a different market. You know they can. It doesn't matter if every one of us that feels let down and sold out never buys DA2. They'll just make it shiny enough to find a whole new group of people and wave at us on our way out.. Sadly, what my experience with the DLC, expansion and this has taught me is that hope is for losers, and the only point in talking about it is to keep your head from exploding. It won't change a damn thing.

[Sago_mulch]

I GET TO BE A SPARTAN IN DRAGHONAGE 2

[Ecael]

errant_knight wrote...

Or they find a different market. You know they can. It doesn't matter if every one of us that feels let down and sold out never buys DA2. They'll just make it shiny enough to find a whole new group of people and wave at us on our way out.. Sadly, what my experience with the DLC, expansion and this has taught me is that hope is for losers, and the only point in talking about it is to keep your head from exploding. It won't change a damn thing.

And where is this alternative market that you speak of?

Modifié par Ecael, 11 juillet 2010 - 04:57 .

[In Exile]

Ecael wrote...
And where is this alternative market that you speak of?

Indie producers. They make silent cRPGs all the time, with 2D graphics and portraits. Some games are good, others are apparently atrocious, but overall there is an attempt to design these sort of games. They're just not high budget.

[errant_knight]

Ecael wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Or they find a different market. You know they can. It doesn't matter if every one of us that feels let down and sold out never buys DA2. They'll just make it shiny enough to find a whole new group of people and wave at us on our way out.. Sadly, what my experience with the DLC, expansion and this has taught me is that hope is for losers, and the only point in talking about it is to keep your head from exploding. It won't change a damn thing.

And where is this alternative market that you speak of?

Well, there are lots of games I don't buy because, while they're packed with action, they don't have what drew me to Dragon Age--the ability to get to know your companions in a way that felt real, speaking to them where, how, and with the words you chose. I'd be willing to bet that the fans of those disliked DA for the same reasons I loved it. Amp up the action, minimize the slower thoughtul parts.... Make it brighter and shinier--they'll buy it. In my opinion, EA wants DA to capture the action crowd, and that's what this is all about. Less dialogue, less acting, and god forbid someone should have to read something. Cheaper to make, too. And it doesn't matter one bit that we liked the Origins model, because there are more people that don't care about that than do.

[Telum101]

I completely agree with alb84. From the info we've been given so far, it seems more like a separate game with the same name, rather than an actual sequel. A lot of the game was left somewhat unfinished, and I don't think it will be completed through DLCs between now and the DA2 release. Even if they do conclude the events of DA1 in this "sequel", as Hawke, I don't think it will have the same sense of immersion.

On a sort of unrelated note, I've heard that in addition to the ME style conversation wheel, there will be icons to illustrate the emotions attached to each dialogue choice. Is this confirmed? If so, I would like to say that from both angles, this really seems like an insult. I am not retarded. I am able to understand what my character is going to say, and the tone they will say that in. I don't need the game to tell me that kicking an elf in the stomach after calling his wife a **** and stealing his money is bad. I'm perfectly capable of understanding that myself.
In the more likely case that Bioware recognizes that we are able to understand basic conversations, I think that it is a sign that the dialogue choices have been 'dumbed down' a lot, which really doesn't support the arguments that this isn't becoming a Mass Effect clone. If we truly need the emotion to be outlined, then I think something is wrong. I never had any misunderstandings in Dragon Age with conversations.

I know this will be a good game, because I trust that you guys at Bioware know what you're doing, but this does not sound like Dragon Age. Please rectify that.