268 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

MFCell wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

MFCell wrote...

I base my greivances on the fact that Mass Effect was a boring, easy, uninspiring slog thru a tired and easily manipulatated dialogue and combat system.

If you think for a SECOND that I'm not basing my bashing of this game on real world experience, your wrong David.

I cannot stand to play ME for more than 2 hours at the time, while I could play DA:O for days on end.  All of the problems I have with DA2 are present in ME 1 and 2, and are being moved into DA2 like it is some kind of step forward.

You guys have lost touch.

Did you just come back into the room after making your dramatic exit?

You were standing right outside, waiting, weren't you?

Gosh, that is so embarassing.

Actually, I didn't expect a Bioware employee to answer my post.

It's called taking advantage of an opportinuty.

But, understandably, you guys at Bioware seem to be recently getting into the business of squandering opportunity, not striving to make it work for you. I can, therefore, see why you'd think I would waste this chance to talk to someone with any actual input into the games outcome.

You weren't taking advantage of an opportunity. You were taking the chance to bash a (different!) game and throw around accusations based on a handful of released details.

Heck, you didn't expect a Bioware employee to reply, but did you even thank him for bothering? Nope, you just ranted in his face.

classy.

If you want to talk about squandered opportunity...

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:56 .

[NKKKK]

Honestly David, I would be totally ok with this game as long as there's some save conection to the first game.



The gameplay sounds promising, I never played it out more than normal mode (which means I like DAO for the plot)

[TMZuk]

McNoguff wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


To be or not to be
Whether 'tis nobler in the RPG to suffer
The slings and arrows of developer whims
Or to take arms against a wheel of dialogue
And, by opposing, play not.

Since the OP isn't going to be here to respond in kind, I thought I'd venture a guess as to what he might say:

I will tell you why; so shall my anticipation prevented be and so too my assumed lost Warden King
and Anora Queene: Post no flame war, I have of late, though wherefore
I know not, lost all my mirth, forgoing custom'ry pleasure
in RPGs. It goes so horridly with my disposition
that this goodly Ferelden, seems to me a sterile
Promontory; this most excellent Canopy the Fade, look you, this brave taupe-shaded, black city'd roof fretted with golden fire: Why, it appears no other thing
to me than a licence for petulance and constipated thought.
What a piece of work am I! How reduced in
Reason? How infinite in incredulity? In form and moving how depressed and unamiable? In action, how like a child?
In apprehension, how like a brat? The beauty of the game world, dwarven Paragons and animals: To me, What is this quintessence of Dustown? Dragon age delights
Not me, no. Nor woman either
For none will sleep with me.

*Applauds!*

Modifié par TMZuk, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:59 .

[McNoguff]

:-D Thanks, guys

NKKKK wrote...

Honestly David, I would be totally ok with this game as long as there's some save conection to the first game...

This was already confirmed in Game Informer's latest issue. No details yet on what that connection is, but it's there.

Modifié par McNoguff, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:05 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

JackFace wrote...

You are aware that the only changes to the main character is that they call it Hawke instead of Warden, it's a human, and that it survived the Blight, right?

What I am worried about is that Hawke will turn out to be just like Shepard, I remember reading an interview with Greg and Ray where they explained why they limit the personality options of a character like Shepard where they would give more freedom to a character the player can create, it was mostly about why Shepard would never be a gay character and why they would allow a character that the player creates to be gay but it did highlight some other areas of Shepards inflexable personality compared to the more flexable player created character. I wish I could find it because it does highlight a lot of my concerns with being forced to play this Hawke character.

Ok I diddnt find the exact interview but I did find this for those interested in reading it

"Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts," Dr. Ray told IGN. "In Mass Effect it's more a third-person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional."

"We're not saying that one approach is better than the other. In our previous games, as we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did in Baldur's Gate, and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But that's by choice."

"It's first person versus third person narrative, and the types of choices you get to make within that are related to that, whether you've got a pre-defined character or a wide-open character. Some of our games have been wide open, and some have been more constrained, and we'll probably continue both kinds of character development in the future."

Full article can be found here

David Gaider wrote...

In our opinion, it might be okay for Commander Shepherd to be stoic and gruff as a rule-- he's a soldier, after all-- but that's not going to fly for Dragon Age. We don't intend to lock you into a single personality.

As to our solution for doing that-- well, we'll have to discuss that later on. But we do have one, and it's not something you see in Mass Effect. Dragon Age is a different game, despite the comparisons some people seem pretty quick to make based on a few common features.

That is reasuring to hear but I still have my doubts, I guess I will have to see the game in action before my fears are totally layed to rest.

However I will ask you this, even though it seems that we shall have more freedom to define Hawke's personality than Shepard will we still have as much freedom to define our characters personality as we did in Origins or will Hawke's personality still be a little more defined? Or is this a question you are unable to give an answer to at this point in time?

Modifié par _-Greywolf-_, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:04 .

[zahra]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

MFCell wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

MFCell wrote...

I base my greivances on the fact that Mass Effect was a boring, easy, uninspiring slog thru a tired and easily manipulatated dialogue and combat system.

If you think for a SECOND that I'm not basing my bashing of this game on real world experience, your wrong David.

I cannot stand to play ME for more than 2 hours at the time, while I could play DA:O for days on end.  All of the problems I have with DA2 are present in ME 1 and 2, and are being moved into DA2 like it is some kind of step forward.

You guys have lost touch.

Did you just come back into the room after making your dramatic exit?

You were standing right outside, waiting, weren't you?

Gosh, that is so embarassing.

Actually, I didn't expect a Bioware employee to answer my post.

It's called taking advantage of an opportinuty.

But, understandably, you guys at Bioware seem to be recently getting into the business of squandering opportunity, not striving to make it work for you. I can, therefore, see why you'd think I would waste this chance to talk to someone with any actual input into the games outcome.

You weren't taking advantage of an opportunity. You were taking the chance to bash a (different!) game and throw around accusations based on a handful of released details.

Heck, you didn't expect a Bioware employee to reply, but did you even thank him for bothering? Nope, you just ranted in his face.

classy.

If you want to talk about squandered opportunity...

I am generally on the side of people who are "concerned" about the changes that have been announced (though not quite as rageful) and I agree with you. It was rude and uncalled for. 

[ScorpSt]

CLime wrote...

MFCell wrote...

If you think for a SECOND that I'm not basing my bashing of this game on real world experience, your wrong David.

I cannot stand to play ME for more than 2 hours at the time, while I could play DA:O for days on end.  All of the problems I have with DA2 are present in ME 1 and 2, and are being moved into DA2 like it is some kind of step forward. I can base every arguement against DA2 I make in cold, hard fact, based on my extensive experience with Bioware's game library.  I have hundredds of hours in ME and DA with which to draw these comparisons.

You guys have lost touch.

The implications of this are quite grave, my friends: the trolls have mastered time travel.

Well, we hackers have always known it was possible to download things from the future using a torrent application. The problem has always been setting up a magnet link that would pass a hash check. You see, in order to properly download it, you'd have to know its exact file size, which could be a daunting task as the file itself doesn't exist yet. Most of us have resigned ourselves to waiting for the file to exist before downloading, but if he's figured it out...

Hey MFCell, can you tell me how you were able to resolve the hash check issue?

[b09boy]

Hahaha. Great thread.



But all joking aside, I know the developers aren't trying to make a bad game, but at the same time what worked well for one product won't necessarily work well for another. I bought Dragon Age and Mass Effect for two different reasons, for two different sorts of experiences. And so with the announced changes I have to wonder if the devs are aiming for the right crowd of customers or if they saw something they liked off the ME team and said, "We should really get in on that."



Let's face it, you guys know how to make some fantastic, truly memorable games which marks Bioware as my favorite developer to this day. I have little doubt the game will at the very least be good. But unless there is some serious overhauling done to make the announced changes work with all the negatives people have pointed out time and again I fear, as good as it'll be and as excited as you might be for it, you'll be aiming at the wrong crowd simply because the first game of the series set a much, much different tone in what sort of series this is.



I'd also like to say, while we seem to have a dev's ear, I hope this doesn't mark the end of the Warden and their style of play. Be it a third game or an expansion I hope it is realized the impact this character could one day have on a lot players if s/he reappears. A lot of people are going to remember the Warden as theirs, even if Hawke is the greatest character in the history of Bioware. It's the one who WE put a voice to, the one who opened up the lore of the game for us, the one who stood, fought and ended a blight where even the mighty Hawke fled. Absence makes the heart grow fonder and I hope the opportunity to take advantage of that fact is not squandered.

[David Gaider]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...
However I will ask you this, even though it seems that we shall have more freedom to define Hawke's personality than Shepard will we still have as much freedom to define our characters personality as we did in Origins or will Hawke's personality still be a little more defined? Or is this a question you are unable to give an answer to at this point in time?

Can you clarify? How much freedom did you have to define the Warden's personality, exactly? From my perspective as the writer, you're still just picking options that I give you-- it's the same thing, unless I'm missing something.

Modifié par David Gaider, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:17 .

[Kalfear]

David Gaider wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...
However I will ask you this, even though it seems that we shall have more freedom to define Hawke's personality than Shepard will we still have as much freedom to define our characters personality as we did in Origins or will Hawke's personality still be a little more defined? Or is this a question you are unable to give an answer to at this point in time?

Can you clarify? How much freedom did you have to define the Warden's personality, exactly? From my perspective as the writer, you're still just picking options that I give you-- it's the same thing, unless I'm missing something.

Thats simple David

DA:O gave you ALOT of options in any conversation where a conversation could go off into different directions or at least get semi different responces

ME2 typically gave you 2 maybe 3 that all came out to the same ending!

Yes you wrote them all but DA:O felt mor eopen like you were creating your own character were as with ME2, you just felt like you were following a preset design to the eventual outcome thats already decided for you!

Example: I was just playing DA:O and talking to Shale in camp where we discussing how he turned on his master

That conversation can have multiple lines exchanged or 1 line and stop
You can get +s or -s for how you interact with Shale

In ME2 there were no +s or -s in the interaction
Every communication mattered little as they all going to end in same place with no repurcussions of any sort

Hope you get what im saying here?

I use to use this example in the ME2 boards

I could call Miranda every name in book, kill her sister and none of it would matter as all I had to do was pick that 1 time line and she was mine, all forgiven.

In DA:O it mattered how and what your companions thought of you and if you didnt play to their attributes/personalities, they wouldnt follow you (well they would but you get idea). How you treated them mattered

Modifié par Kalfear, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:28 .

[Khayness]

David Gaider wrote...

Can you clarify? How much freedom did you have to define the Warden's personality, exactly? From my perspective as the writer, you're still just picking options that I give you-- it's the same thing, unless I'm missing something.

Can we fill the blank slates with our imagination to define the character's personality, or are there multiple dialogue choices based on different personalities (practical/goodhearted/ruthless)?

Or will the character have an opinion about himself/herself (like in The Witcher)?

Modifié par Khayness, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:26 .

[angelgaidin]

Suprez30 wrote...

EA drugged Bioware and now they're ASSUMING direct control of their project.

Oh, God, EA is Harbinger!  They're not turning Dragon Age into Mass Effect, they're making a Dragon Age Reaper!

[Randy1012]

Kalfear wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...
However I will ask you this, even though it seems that we shall have more freedom to define Hawke's personality than Shepard will we still have as much freedom to define our characters personality as we did in Origins or will Hawke's personality still be a little more defined? Or is this a question you are unable to give an answer to at this point in time?

Can you clarify? How much freedom did you have to define the Warden's personality, exactly? From my perspective as the writer, you're still just picking options that I give you-- it's the same thing, unless I'm missing something.

Thats simple David

DA:O gave you ALOT of options in any conversation where a conversation could go off into different directions or at least get semi different responces

ME2 typically gave you 2 maybe 3 that all came out to the same ending!

Yes you wrote them all but DA:O felt mor eopen like you were creating your own character were as with ME2, you just felt like you were following a preset design to the eventual outcome thats already decided for you!

But in DAO, we were also only following a series of preset options designed to lead us to an eventual outcome that was already decided for us. DAO had more endings, but they were all still pre-determined; eventually, our choices would still take us to the most appropriate ending decided upon by the developers. The only difference between the two games was how they were presented.

Modifié par Randy1083, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:29 .

[Suicider_11]

Everybody's reacting a little bit extreme ,knowing the trailer/gameplay videos hasn't been shown yet at least to make an initial judgment if not impression . For my part i'm curious of what's going to happen in DA2. I want to try out this hawke character and see for myself what DA2 is all about. New characters, new places, weapons, armor, abilities (if possible) and another good storyline.

Would all of us have known that DAO would be that successfull as BG2 (if not close) with different rules (D&D , reputation system, alignments, different lore, classes, races, etc) ? I wasn't sure until I was midway through and then finished the game. With this, I trust Bioware to give us a really good game, if not excellent an one.

As much as i like being a grey warden in the next game, I don't like the next 100 hours of gameplay or so about my grey warden again fighting hurlocks, genlocks, etc. Besides, I think there are a lot more to Thedas than just grey wardens and darkspawn. Afterall, this dark epic fantasy game is called Dragon Age, not Warden Age/Darkspawn Age.

One thing's for sure about the next game , I get to see more dragons!



Just my 2 cents.

[McNoguff]

David Gaider wrote...

Can you clarify? How much freedom did you have to define the Warden's personality, exactly? From my perspective as the writer, you're still just picking options that I give you-- it's the same thing, unless I'm missing something.

To be the third or fourth person to use this as an opportunity to ask his own question: Will the options you give me be as many, and as varied, as in Origins--perhaps even more so? The lack of a polarized morality system would seem to indicate yes, but you don't give your staff/yourself enough credit when you say we merely picked options you wrote.

You made legos out of dialog, and with these legos, I was able to make Stabby Mc****face* Cuddlymurder, dragonslayer and lover of dogs and nugs alike. Who was also gay. We pieced together your words to make something our own, and that is more to your writing staff's credit than your statement warrants.

*whoa, whoa, I can't say the W word for prostitute on the forums?

Modifié par McNoguff, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:31 .

[AlanC9]

Randy1083 wrote...
But in DAO, we were also only following a series of preset options designed to lead us to an eventual outcome that was already decided for us. DAO had more endings, but they were all still pre-determined; eventually, our choices would still take us to the most appropriate ending decided upon by the developers. The only difference between the two games was how they were presented.

Spot on.

The question is why the illusion of choice failed for Kalfear. I've got no idea, since ME2 wasn't any worse than any other RPG for me.

[Kalfear]

AlanC9 wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...
But in DAO, we were also only following a series of preset options designed to lead us to an eventual outcome that was already decided for us. DAO had more endings, but they were all still pre-determined; eventually, our choices would still take us to the most appropriate ending decided upon by the developers. The only difference between the two games was how they were presented.

Spot on.

The question is why the illusion of choice failed for Kalfear. I've got no idea, since ME2 wasn't any worse than any other RPG for me.

yeah cause its just me saying it!

I really wish ME2 trolls would go back to ME2

[David Gaider]

Kalfear wrote...
Thats simple David

DA:O gave you ALOT of options in any conversation where a conversation could go off into different directions or at least get semi different responces

ME2 typically gave you 2 maybe 3 that all came out to the same ending!

Yes you wrote them all but DA:O felt mor eopen like you were creating your own character were as with ME2, you just felt like you were following a preset design to the eventual outcome thats already decided for you!

Err... okay. But functionally it's exactly the same. The dialogues in DAO also came out to the same ending, or branched as determined by the choices we implemented-- there's nothing about the system that requires us to set up these choices in the same manner as ME. That's a style difference, nothing more.

Example: I was just playing DA:O and talking to Shale in camp where we discussing how he turned on his master

That conversation can have multiple lines exchanged or 1 line and stop
You can get +s or -s for how you interact with Shale

In ME2 there were no +s or -s in the interaction
Every communication mattered little as they all going to end in same place with no repurcussions of any sort

Hope you get what im saying here?

Sure, but I have no idea why you'd assume we would arrange the dialogue in the same manner. This isn't Mass Effect, and quite frankly I could write that exact same dialogue with Shale using the DA2 system I'm using now-- the only difference being in the paraphrases and the arrangement of the interface.

I use to use this example in the ME2 boards

I could call Miranda every name in book, kill her sister and none of it would matter as all I had to do was pick that 1 time line and she was mine, all forgiven.

In DA:O it mattered how and what your companions thought of you and if you didnt play to their attributes/personalities, they wouldnt follow you (well they would but you get idea). How you treated them mattered

Right-- and once again I'll ask what it is about the interface that would make us not do that? I'm really not getting the logic leap you're making, I'm afraid.

[AlanC9]

See, this is the problem with your posts, Kalfear....

Kalfear wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...


Spot on.

The question is why the illusion of choice failed for Kalfear. I've got no idea, since ME2 wasn't any worse than any other RPG for me.

yeah cause its just me saying it!

I really wish ME2 trolls would go back to ME2

You haven't said why ME2 failed for you. Maybe you can't -- we can't always articulate why we like things. But when I post that I don't know why you didn't like it, you call me a troll.

Edit: unless you're saying that DAO really did have more branches in the conversations than ME2. Is that what you're saying? I don't think it's true, but we could actually analyze the conversations in both games and determine the truth of it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 juillet 2010 - 06:55 .

[Suron]

David Gaider wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...
However I will ask you this, even though it seems that we shall have more freedom to define Hawke's personality than Shepard will we still have as much freedom to define our characters personality as we did in Origins or will Hawke's personality still be a little more defined? Or is this a question you are unable to give an answer to at this point in time?

Can you clarify? How much freedom did you have to define the Warden's personality, exactly? From my perspective as the writer, you're still just picking options that I give you-- it's the same thing, unless I'm missing something.

it's called imagination..that magical thing you gusy, and sadly most of the world, seems to have lost.

which is exactly why people are up in arms about him being voiced....tone of voice and how words are stated DEFINE a personality...giving us the tripe good/neutral/bad options is NOT giving us a personality of our own..

and how do you even think Hawke is a good name?  it doesn't even fit in your own lore...another sign of lost imagination.  We have Alistair, Duncan, Sten, Cousland (yes I'm mixing first/last names to prove my point), Amell, Howe, etc....."hawke" is the name of a goddamn JRPG or anime character.....he belongs next to Cloud....not Loghain.

[NKKKK]

Suron, want to me to sing you Linkin Park again?



A lot of your complaints are just ridiculous.

[David Gaider]

Suron wrote...
it's called imagination..that magical thing you gusy, and sadly most of the world, seems to have lost.

which is exactly why people are up in arms about him being voiced....tone of voice and how words are stated DEFINE a personality...giving us the tripe good/neutral/bad options is NOT giving us a personality of our own..

If your definition of a personality is being able to say the lines in your head even though you don't control what you're saying, then I suppose I can't help you. Sorry, but that ship has sailed.

and how do you even think Hawke is a good name?  it doesn't even fit in your own lore...another sign of lost imagination.  We have Alistair, Duncan, Sten, Cousland (yes I'm mixing first/last names to prove my point), Amell, Howe, etc....."hawke" is the name of a goddamn JRPG or anime character.....he belongs next to Cloud....not Loghain.

It fits in our lore just fine, considering where Hawke is from. I'm not sure why it would upset you, but I suspect it's not our lore that's your issue but rather what you're projecting onto it.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Words...cannot describe the stupidity. My nose...its bleeding. Oh god, i think i just received a severe concussion after bashing my head so hard against the wall. I'm dead now, and my cat is now homeless. You happy OP?

[AlanC9]

David Gaider wrote...
Sure, but I have no idea why you'd assume we would arrange the dialogue in the same manner. This isn't Mass Effect, and quite frankly I could write that exact same dialogue with Shale using the DA2 system I'm using now-- the only difference being in the paraphrases and the arrangement of the interface.

Some folks  (not me) have assumed that you can't get enough information across in a paraphrase for complex conversations. I think the example used was the confrontation with Bastila in KotOR (LS endgame). Are you confident that would work in the DA2 conversation system?