268 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

David Gaider wrote...
So you like being able to read the line with the inflection in your own head, making it sarcastic or angry or happy, even if nobody in the game reacts to that? Or, in fact, reacts differently based on our intent regarding the line rather than your own? This is better?

I think that's putting it simplistically.  I never felt like my PC persona was broken just because an interaction here or there did not go how I expected or intended it to.  I mentally filled in the blanks and tucked in the corners.  The actual in-game dialogue, other than action-defining choices, was more of a starting place, an inspiration, not the text of my mental story.  Maybe you didn't know or didn't intend for players to play the game this way??  It sounds like you'd rather be writing closed stories rather than providing more open-ended opportunities?

In any event, I anticipate it is going to be much more difficult to feel in control when the PC is off going at it and I'm just sitting back as spectator.  The constant check-back that you seem to think is tedious or unnecessary is what makes the dialogue interactive.  If I didn't want that, I'd watch a movie rather than play an RPG.
But apparently the masses think that being "cinematic" is more important. 

Because I would think being able to communicate our intent more clearly and still give you options to define your personality by choosing how you say things as well as the actions you take still gives you plenty of options to take the character in the direction you choose. The only thing you lose is that your character uses a defined voice-- not necessarily a defined personality-- but if you associate that much simply with the voice then there's really not much more to say, is there?

Indeed.    Except to say I hope this doesn't mean that it's how it's always going to be with future games.  I enjoyed the NPC voice acting in DAO for the most part, but I don't want a voice actor interpreting my own character for me.  As a writer you get some input in how the actors voice your creations.  We get no such input and have to take it or leave it.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:35 .

[Randy1012]

Khayness wrote...

Well then it's settled: roleplaying = picking a choice from a few determinated options rather than filling the missing options with our imagination.

In computer roleplaying games, yes. If you want roleplaying without limits, that's what Dungeons & Dragons and other pen-and-paper RPGs are for. Every single computer RPG is based on choosing from a specific set of options to reach a predetermined destination, even Bethesda's "open world" games like The Elder Scrolls IV and Fallout 3. You can only do what the developers make it possible for you to do.

Modifié par Randy1083, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:38 .

[ScorpSt]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
With player voice you also aren't forced to throw up options like "Go on"/"Tell me more"/"Hurry up" or the like just to move dialogue forward. You have the option to just have the player say "Tell me more", if you really need to, and save the choices for things that actually allow the player to establish personality or take actions.

So to use an example from Origins, when Wynne is telling her little Grey Warden story, how would the new DA2 system work if we wanted our goofy Hawke to interject with "Griffins?" in the middle of her story? Or would little, brief responses like that which basically are  humorous "tell me more" options just get absorbed into the "cinematic" of the voice actor's response, so as to not break the dialogue up?

I'm sure if there was an option to interject with that line, the conversation would pause and a dialoge wheel would pop up. From both Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, when people are telling stories, there are often breaks in their stories that allow your character to ask questions. Based off that alone, you should be able to do the same in DA2.

[David Gaider]

Dave of Canada wrote...
I don't associate it with voice, I'm just one of those people who fears that with voiced dialogue we'll be losing out on dialogue options and such in conversations that it'll limit the personalities available to Hawke. Like I won't be able to create a sarcastic Hawke that teases his friends because the options will be limited to friendly / flirty / angry / investigate.

I suppose I see what you're saying-- but in the end, I provided that option to tease Alistair and I can do exactly the same thing with the DA2 system if I choose. Our ability to provide you enough choices so that you can express the type of personality you wish lies in the execution of the writing, not the structure of the interface. Interface-wise we still have six slots available on the wheel, just the same as we had six lines to work with in DAO.

As for being limited to friendly/ flirty/ angry/ investigate-- I suppose there's an element of that, sure, but there was also in DAO. We tended to include the same "categories" of responses so that they covered a limited breadth of personalities or actions. This is no different, and as I said it comes down to the writing style.

[Kinkaku]

Randy1083 wrote...

Akiios wrote...

I personnally dont have an oppinion as of right now on the game since..well....I know almost nothing or  have yet seen what they are implementing or how they plan to do things, mostly because there is hardly any solid info out yet

Whoa! What do you think you're doing? You have to either love the game or hate it. Right now. We only accept snap judgments in this forum, dagnabbit!

Your right im sorry I should be more like..."I Hate YOU BIOWARE FOR RUINING MY PERFECT DILOUGE LIST BY REPLACEING IT WITH A F@$%ING CIRCLE, HOW DARE UUUUU"  That should be more apropriete.

[Gerudan]

Didn't they say, that the main difference between Shep and the character in DA:O was the fact, that ME was about Sheppard, about the character, that the player controlled from outside (this was said to be the main reason for not having a same-sex relationship), while in DA the player and the character would be more or less the same person?

[David Gaider]

octoberfire wrote...
Mr. Gaider, are you allowed to comment more on the dialogue system? Can you initiate a conversation with your companions at any given time or is it like Awakening? Honestly, this is all that I care about at the moment.

We're not using the exact system in Awakening, no, but I don't think this is the time to go into detail regarding what we're doing. We'll get into that eventually.

[NKKKK]

This thread sure has a lot of bawing

[Khayness]

Randy1083 wrote...

In roleplaying video games, yes. If you want roleplaying without limits, that's what Dungeons & Dragons and other pen-and-paper RPGs are for. Every single computer video game is based on choosing from a specific set of options to reach a predetermined destination, even Bethesda's "open world" games like The Elder Scrolls IV and Fallout 3. You can only do what the developers make it possible for you to do.

Oh no you don't. Few quotes from another thread:

About filling the blank slates with our imagination:

Okay let's try this: BioWare didn't say the Warden hates elves, but you
can roleplay the Warden in ways to screw around the elves choosing the
worst possible outcomes for them. Giving the Warden's actions reason by
roleplaying, imagining that the Warden hates elves.

About predeterminated character and limitations of roleplaying:

We don't know yet, but it's possible that due his/her personality
the dialogue options won't allow that.

Why would you assume that?

The same way there isn't any option to join up with Saren in ME1
because it's totally out of Shepard's galaxy saving predeterminated
personality to do so.

[hexaligned]

It's also a matter of the talent of your chosen voice actor. Not to knock Mark Meer, but his performance in ME completely takes me out whatever role he's trying to convey. In other words you can write the best dialogue ever and think you have the perfect system to convey it, if whoever they get to voice it just falls flat all those pluses are essentially wasted.

Modifié par relhart, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:42 .

[Dave of Canada]

David Gaider wrote...
I suppose I see what you're saying-- but in the end, I provided that option to tease Alistair and I can do exactly the same thing with the DA2 system if I choose. Our ability to provide you enough choices so that you can express the type of personality you wish lies in the execution of the writing, not the structure of the interface. Interface-wise we still have six slots available on the wheel, just the same as we had six lines to work with in DAO.

As for being limited to friendly/ flirty/ angry/ investigate-- I suppose there's an element of that, sure, but there was also in DAO. We tended to include the same "categories" of responses so that they covered a limited breadth of personalities or actions. This is no different, and as I said it comes down to the writing style.

I see, thank you for your time. I guess there's more than trust your judgement and follow what you will or will not do, I'm sure that whatever the end result is that I'll probably enjoy it very much. I can't help having fears for the future but you've helped calmed a few of those.

[Herr Uhl]

Khayness wrote...

About filling the blank slates with our imagination:

Okay let's try this: BioWare didn't say the Warden hates elves, but you
can roleplay the Warden in ways to screw around the elves choosing the
worst possible outcomes for them. Giving the Warden's actions reason by
roleplaying, imagining that the Warden hates elves.

About predeterminated character and limitations of roleplaying:

We don't know yet, but it's possible that due his/her personality
the dialogue options won't allow that.

Why would you assume that?

The same way there isn't any option to join up with Saren in ME1
because it's totally out of Shepard's galaxy saving predeterminated
personality to do so.

As to the first one, why can't you do that?

As to the second one, you couldn't join up with the darkspawn either. Or even join up with the other wardens.

[ScorpSt]

Khayness wrote...

About predeterminated character and limitations of roleplaying:

We don't know yet, but it's possible that due his/her personality
the dialogue options won't allow that.

Why would you assume that?

The same way there isn't any option to join up with Saren in ME1
because it's totally out of Shepard's galaxy saving predeterminated
personality to do so.

Yeah, but there isn't an option to team up with the Archdemon either. Or helping the darkspawn in some other way and make sure Ferelden is consumed by the Blight. The only way to successfully win the game is to reach one of the four possible game conclusions.

[Dave of Canada]

Herr Uhl wrote...

As to the second one, you couldn't join up with the darkspawn either. Or even join up with the other wardens.

You can in Awakening.

[Randy1012]

Khayness wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

In roleplaying video games, yes. If you want roleplaying without limits, that's what Dungeons & Dragons and other pen-and-paper RPGs are for. Every single computer video game is based on choosing from a specific set of options to reach a predetermined destination, even Bethesda's "open world" games like The Elder Scrolls IV and Fallout 3. You can only do what the developers make it possible for you to do.

Oh no you don't. Few quotes from another thread:

About filling the blank slates with our imagination:

Okay let's try this: BioWare didn't say the Warden hates elves, but you
can roleplay the Warden in ways to screw around the elves choosing the
worst possible outcomes for them. Giving the Warden's actions reason by
roleplaying, imagining that the Warden hates elves.

BioWare didn't say Shepard hated batarians, either, but you can choose certain dialogue options that lead to the worst possible otucomes for them. That's giving Shepard's choices reason by roleplaying; maybe he hates the batarians because he was born on Mindoir, maybe he hates the batarians because they were the reason so many of his men died on Torfan. Maybe Shepard just hates aliens in general because he's a Ruthless Spacer whose father was killed in the First Contact War. Or maybe he's just a sadistic bastard who gets off on punching reporters.

Khayness said...

The same way there isn't any option to join up with Saren in ME1because it's totally out of Shepard's galaxy saving predeterminated personality to do so.

There isn't any option to join the Fereldan Civil War on Loghain's side, either, because it's totally against the Warden's predetermined Blight-destroying personality to do so.

Modifié par Randy1083, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:49 .

[Eudaemonium]

David Gaider wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
I don't associate it with voice, I'm just one of those people who fears that with voiced dialogue we'll be losing out on dialogue options and such in conversations that it'll limit the personalities available to Hawke. Like I won't be able to create a sarcastic Hawke that teases his friends because the options will be limited to friendly / flirty / angry / investigate.

I suppose I see what you're saying-- but in the end, I provided that option to tease Alistair and I can do exactly the same thing with the DA2 system if I choose. Our ability to provide you enough choices so that you can express the type of personality you wish lies in the execution of the writing, not the structure of the interface. Interface-wise we still have six slots available on the wheel, just the same as we had six lines to work with in DAO.

As for being limited to friendly/ flirty/ angry/ investigate-- I suppose there's an element of that, sure, but there was also in DAO. We tended to include the same "categories" of responses so that they covered a limited breadth of personalities or actions. This is no different, and as I said it comes down to the writing style.

I think what a lot of people are afraid of is that with the advent of a voiced protagonist the various options for role-playing will be decreased. Now, I can definitely see advantages to it - you've stated a number of them in this thread, such as the ease of carrying on an exchange without having to click 'tell me more' every few lines. The issue really is that we know that the developers have a budget to work with, and that voice acting the protagonists will take up a more significant portion of that budget than inserting a line of text would. I assume that this would naturally lead to reduced options, simply due to financial constraint. I assume that the exclusion of non-human races was a side-effect of this (voicing 6 protagonists instead of 2 would eat up 3 times more resources, after all), though it is entirely possible that the story *required* Hawke to be human. I am willing to wait to pass judgement on this issue. I have no doubt I will enjoy DA2 immensely. The real issue is whether I'll enjoy it as much as I enjoyed DA:O.

Modifié par Eudaemonium, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:08 .

[Darth_Trethon]

So can you tell us whether Morrigan's ritual has been made official canon by BioWare?

[Khayness]

Wow, where were you guys when I posted them in the original topic? Would have been a more interesting discussion. The guy I was debating with stated that it's just fanfiction, roleplaying is what the developers allow you to do ingame.

[Dave of Canada]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

So can you tell us whether Morrigan's ritual has been made official canon by BioWare?

Probably cannot and will not, it's a pretty important plot loose thread.

[Firky]

Well. I'm enjoying just reading along now. Getting to the nitty gritty of issues like how you write for rolplaying is really interesting.

Modifié par Firky, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:54 .

[the_one_54321]

David, everything you've had to say is exactly the reason I haven't been denouncing this game for heresy, yet. There has been no concrete example, no shot heard 'round the world, no smoking gun that defines this game as a [ubiquitous Mass Effect Comparison]. However, the similarities have been mounting. They have been increasing with every single press release made so far.



That is what is so disquieting about this. That's why I'm really nervous. The predetermined character, and the dialog system could maybe all be tooled such that they still offer the same awesome game play and stories. I'm just waiting for detailed news on the combat system. If we get ME-combat-but-with-swords I will definitively no longer have any reason to play this game. I already have other games that offer that. (and I didn't even like the combat in those very much)



And strictly speaking, it doesn't even make any sense from a sell-lots-of-games point of view. If the game ends up having copy-paste combat from ME, as it does everything else so far, then what you are left with is 3 groups of players. Group 1 thinks ME is awesome and they'll want this game. Group 2 thinks DA:O is awesome and they will specifically dislike what DA2 becomes. Group 3 likes both kinds of games and each person there is as likely to want the game or to go elsewhere.



Where you used to have a set of games that made everyone in all 3 groups happy with at least one of your games, making DA2 too much like ME will mean you have a set of games that makes group 1 happy with all your games, group 2 unhappy with all your games (and also nursing a feeling of serious betrayal) and group 3 going having some that are happy with all of them and some that loose interest in all of them.



I don't doubt that this game will be tremendously popular and successful no matter what happens. However if, and is a really big if I know, if this game has combat mechanics inspired by ME, dialog mechanics inspired by ME, and story structure inspired by ME, you should be prepared for a lot of your older, long-time fans to throw up their hands and walk away.

[MerinTB]

Try this -

DAO - you have 2 genders, 3 races, 6 "origins", 3 classes. Now, with the exception of human mage / elf mage, each race can be each class in any of the origins, of either gender. Inside those origins you can play the origins very differently, skipping parts, treating some people one way or the other, saving or killing people who appear (or don't) later in the game.  Your class does get mention in the game repeatedly, especially if you are a mage, but also if you are a rogue (as in there are Denerim quests and NPCs that non-rogues will never meet.)
ME - you have 2 genders, 1 race (even though there are plenty of aliens), 6 "builds", 3 "origins" and 3 "defining moments" - your 1 race can be either gender in all 6 builds with any combo of the 3 origins and 3 moments, but... you don't play the origins or moments, they are backstory pre-determined simplified (possibly to make there only 3 origin dialog results and 3 moment dialog results, for far less read lines of dialog?) Ignoring gender for the moment (and yes, gender is an important choice to allow) you have really 6 options as there's barely even any dialog mentions, let alone story effects, due to origin and moments.  And other than how you handle combat, your "builds" have ZERO effect on story / NPCs.

If those feel like the same things to you, whoever you are, then one of the things that matters most to me (and yes, I'm just one person) is clearly not that important to you.

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:12 .

[Addai]

relhart wrote...

It's also a matter of the talent of your chosen voice actor. Not to knock Mark Meer, but his performance in ME completely takes me out whatever role he's trying to convey. In other words you can write the best dialogue ever and think you have the perfect system to convey it, if whoever they get to voice it just falls flat all those pluses are essentially wasted.

It was the female Shepard that made me want to turn the volume down, but I have to say that where both really fall down is in the romances.  I've only seen YouTube videos, but the delivery of the romance lines makes me either want to giggle or snooze.  I mean, look at this.  Tali is voiced pretty well, but could Shepard sound any duller or less engaged?  If I'm playing the game thinking "hello, wake up there protagonist," or "eww, sappy" or whatever, then that is completely immersion-breaking.

I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere that there will even be romances in DA2 (Bueller?) but if there are, then how do the devs anticipate the new system rising to the challenge?

[Arttis]

Since its not gonna change for this game.

All we can do is try it.

[MerinTB]

OR - think on this:

Bethesda made the Elder Scrolls Series.
First Arena, then Daggerfall (where they pretty much perfected their formula for success),
then Battlespire. Anyone remember that? No? It flopped because it tried to be "different."
how about Redguard? That was using the "Elder Scrolls" world to tell a predetermined character's story with a different gameplay style. Also a big failure.
then Morrowind. Back to Daggerfall / Arena style game with improvements. HUGE success.
Oblivion continues along the same model. ANOTHER HUGE SUCCESS.
Fallout 3, even in a different setting and genre of gaming, largely uses the same design philosophy (with the addition of some new gameplay elements that were risky but the core gameplay, down to dialog and character creation, were spot-on Elder Scroll style mixed with Fallout nostalgia) is another HUGE success.
They learned that straying too far from their winning formula, even in a given world, even into a new formula that worked for other games at the time, was not a wise idea and they came back home to what they did best.

I thought BioWare had learned that with Jade Empire, upon seeing that even though it was a great game for what it was, it had strayed a bit too far from what the general consensus of the majority of BioWare fans wanted and it didn't get continued (the world, the action gameplay style, etc.)

Now, granted, ME was a risk with a shift into the shooter gallery that paid off well... but it paid off because, at it's heart, it played to the KotOR fans and had enough "BioWare story and choice" in there that the set MC and shooter aspects didn't alienate as many BioWare RPG fans as it drew in some hybrid shooter/RPG fans. AND ME was an entirely different property.

DA2 (which, yes, indeed, it is way too early to pass any meaningful judgments on the game and I am eagerly anticipating it) LOOKS to be heading down the Battlespire or Red Guard road. This may well not be the case. But it is the concern, overall.

I think this may be a bigger issue, honestly, than many of the typical "internet forum complaints" events.

I fear this will only grow worse and worse as DA2 looks less and less like a "spiritual successor to the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate" and more like "the shift from old school cRPG to modern action / cinematic hybrid RPGs in the same world as the more old school cRPG."

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:14 .