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[Passivehate]

 I had planned to keep out of this nonsense, but I'm tired and my judgement seems to be lacking at the moment.

Let me preface this with a key part of my identity. I am a transgender individual. More specifically, I am an MtN. This is something I don't normally share, but it is significant to my feelings on the matter.

As one could likely predict, I don't appreciate having a voiced character. Why? I can't place myself into the shoes of an obviously male or female character. In addition, I find them quite a bit harder to empathize with such characters. Thus, I could never finish mass effect due to Shepard sounding extremely macho or feminine. It just felt painful to try to place myself in his shoes, per se. In DA:O, I found this much easier. While I could not for the life of me create a more feminine male(let alone an androgynous one), I found this much easier to do with the female characters. Yet, regardless of looks, I could delude myself into thinking that my character was like me, without gender due to the absence of voice. Given this, I would hope that people would be able to, at least, understand my reasoning behind why I would prefer not to have a voiced character.

As per certain arguments such as, "just mute it" or "you haven't heard anything about the game yet", let me clarify further. "Just mut[ing] it" sounds simple enough, but then I miss out on interacting with party members. Just as you like to hear your pc speak to give it character, I like to hear my party members speak so as to get a feeling for who they are. As a dabbler of linguistics(emphasis on the "dabbler" portion), I typically glean interesting insight into the character based on their words...er...probably should have mentioned this earlier, but I can't distinguish facial gestures...at all.
For the "no info" argument, I know one key thing, the pc is voiced. There are certain things that, despite how great the rest of the game is, you can't get past. For instance, would any of you play the game if they announced that your pc was a rapist? I'll assume, and hope, that the answer is no. For those that would argue that the analogy isn't proper, recognize this: just like you can't understand the mind of a rapist and have no desire to, I can't understand the mind of male or female and I have no desire to.

However, this has sidetracked me from my main concern. Is bioware planning on heading in this direction as a company or as a game? I mean this, will bioware ever produce another game without voiced pc's? I ask because I don't want to retain hope if it is meaningless. Regardless of the answer, I still have the utmost respect for all of bioware's employees(that I know of  ) and I've enjoyed your pleasant responses throughout my journey from lurking guest to lurking member. For this, I thank you. 

[joriandrake]

"I am an MtN."


A what?


edit: also what do you have against rap music?

Modifié par joriandrake, 11 juillet 2010 - 10:19 .

[Ninjatroll]

b09boy wrote...
So while you're seeing the optional line, "Let's get on with it then," as fairly basic neutral line, people are adding a dozen different inflections so they're saying it how they want yet are still getting the response they are looking for from the NPCs.  For instance, [Excited] "Let's get on with it then."  [Gruff] "Let's get on with it then." [Impatient] "Let's get on with it then." [Annoyed] "Let's get on with it then."  Imagine for a moment, if that's what a player can do with such a basic line, what can they create for themselves with the snippets of real personality showing through?  More, with that in mind, what would they create if you made more snippets, such as more actions in place of pure dialogue?

Believe it or not, this makes the Warden more personal to them than Hawke will ever be.  Think of a tabletop RPG, if you will.  The DM can write a story and railroad it all they want, but the player will still find a way to make the character their own...unless it's the DM saying all the lines while the player remains mute.

The problem, like David said before, is that your intention does not transfer into the game. The NPC react the exact same way if you imagine yourself to be excited, gruff or impatient. Thats sort of an imersion killer for me atleast. People do react to the way you say things IRL.

Yes more actions are a very good idea, but who said they are not doing something like the "Paragon/Renegade QTE" from ME2? But rather based on your skills and talents rather than the morality scale. Atleast I hope they do, they where amazing, but please mr Gaider... make some of them lead to new threads in the dialouge, not just kill the conversation it in a pecefull/aggressiv way.

[Passivehate]

joriandrake wrote...

"I am an MtN."


A what?


edit: also what do you have against rap music?

Pardon me, I should have used the term 'neutrois' as it is much more google friendly.

Modifié par Passivehate, 11 juillet 2010 - 10:23 .

[Noviere]

David, you have the patience of Job.

[b09boy]

Ninjatroll wrote...

The problem, like David said before, is that your intention does not transfer into the game. The NPC react the exact same way if you imagine yourself to be excited, gruff or impatient. Thats sort of an imersion killer for me atleast. People do react to the way you say things IRL.

In large part, it doesn't tend to matter unless you're going pretty extreme or obscure.  For one, it's still creating the character as you.  Second, the lines are typically neutral enough to allow a response which, while it may not be perfect, will at least be close enough to make sense.  Third, it's not like this is going to be happening at all with VA.  What I mean by that is that if you think up a certain tone for a non voiced character people might not respond quite how you expect.  Well with voice you just plain don't get to pick a tone, you just pick a different dialogue option which will hand out the response you're looking for - something which should be present without voice anyway.  And more, you might not get the response you're looking for.  Let me make an example.

No VA
Leliana: Can we go shopping?
 -Option 1: Let's go to the market. [exasperated/excited/amused]
   -Leliana:  Yay!
  -Option 2: Must we? [questioning/irritated/whiny]
   -Leliana: I suppose if you really don't want to...
 -Option 3: No.  We have better things to do with our time. [matter-of-factly/annoyed/angry]
   -Leliana: [disappointed] I suppose you're right.

VA
Leliana: Can we go shopping?
 -Tone: Positive.  "Sure, I'd love to.  I need to pick up more equipment anyway.
    -Leliana: Yay!
 -Tone: Irritated.  "Why do you feel the need to constantly empty our purse whenever we near a market district?
   -Leliana: I suppose if you really don't want to...
 -Tone: Negative.  "No and stop bloody asking.  We have better things to spend gold on than shoes with silken inlay.
   -Leliana [disappointed] I suppose you're right.

[BallaZs]

Samb84 wrote...

BallaZs wrote...

Hell yeah here we go again...
U are calling DA2 a nightmare already, but u have only like 5 line information about it.
Gongratz. Well, 1 thing for sure, I really won't miss you. I'm sick of the criers like u.
What the hell is wrong with you?  <----
It sounds like that Bioware could come up with anything u guys would just complain and whine about that.
Have faith for God's sake. They still have 8 months to upgrade the game, these are just the very first information about the game.
I truly belive that we'll get another amazing game like DAO was. Just let them do their work, and STOP complaining already. Support them instead.

Wasnt this a bit harsh?

This is a discussion and talk like this is only misplaced.

How ever we feel about it lets be civil and respect all opinions...

Yeah i guess, u are right, i was a bit harsh...
Aplogize for that. I'd take it back if I could... I mean the pointed part
But that's my opinion, I just had to be more respectful..
Sorry again

[Akka le Vil]

David Gaider wrote...

I suppose I see what you're saying-- but in the end, I provided that option to tease Alistair and I can do exactly the same thing with the DA2 system if I choose. Our ability to provide you enough choices so that you can express the type of personality you wish lies in the execution of the writing, not the structure of the interface. Interface-wise we still have six slots available on the wheel, just the same as we had six lines to work with in DAO.

Sure, technically speaking it's the same.
But that's not really the point. It seems rather logical to think that games are developped following design decisions, and these broad directions influence how the game will be written, played and implemented.
As someone said, ME was developped with the idea that Sheppard was a character, with his own personality and the player was rather the "influential observator" than the character himself. Hence the design direction of "tones" rather than "specific answer".

Maybe the technicalities are the same than in DAO, but the result and, I suppose, the intent, were clearly different.
The very idea of implementing a discussion wheel and/or making answers based on intent/tone rather than exact phrasing (I don't know if it's effectively the case in DA2, BTW, I'm simply stating it as an illustration), imply a very different design approach, even if, technically, both are the same in functionnality.

It seems to me something pretty obvious, even something very basic to game creation, so I'm a bit suspicious about how you seem to ignore/avoid/misunderstand it. It feels like (rightly or not) you're aware that the design choice would not be popular and are trying to convince people that no, a different design direction won't change the game because the technical details are rather identical - notice, you may be right, but I just don't feel it that way.

[Kolos2]

its logical,, Mass Effect has a bigger player base, hence Dragon Effect;

EA didnt get its name becouse of the quality but its market share

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

 Hey David, first lemme say thanks for answering so many questions. If I may,
I really enjoyed Mass Effect, but I definitely thought it had problems. In ME2 the team fixed most, if not all, of those problems, but ended up going, in my opinion, too far. ME2 was definitely a Shooter RPG as opposed to an RPG Shooter (ME), and I was definitely disappointed in that. Another problem was that the story and variety was a lot weaker in ME2, I mean the large majority of the enemies were just mercs, not collectors or geth. 

What I'm getting at is that I'm really worried about taking DA2 into a more action focused direction. I for one loved the combat and party system in DAO, it was such a nice change of pace from every other RPG. Pausing and strategizing, lining up abilities, taking control of various party members to set them up, that was all important to winning a fight.

The change in direction was definitely noticable in Awakening. The inability to get into conversations with your companions at anytime really broke the immersion. I don't care if they have nothing new to say, a big part of DAO for me was going back to camp after every mission and checking each party member to see if anything new came up with them. Giving them the newly found gear and flipping through one by one.till I had everyone at their best and then selling the unequipped/used gear.
While a lot of that was present in Awakening, some of it wasn't. Then you guys announce DA2 and from the info we've gotten it seems you've furthered that position. So here's my question:

Have you indeed furthered the the action-y direction you took in awakening, speeding up the various aspects of gameplay, and if you have can you give us a general estimate on how much? Maybe use this graph?

<---|DA|------|Awakening|------------------------------------------|ME|-------------------|ME2|--->


I'll be straightforward when I say ideally you would hit in between DAO and Awakening, but it seems you've hit slightly less than halfway between Awakening and ME.

PS: I hope you're working on a book for DA2, The Stolen Throne was still the best game based books, and one of the best books overall, I've read. The climax between Maric and Katriel I swear made my heart skip a beat.

Modifié par TonyTheBossDanza123, 11 juillet 2010 - 02:11 .

[nikki191]

i personally found the silent main character in DAO a very jarring experience, for me either all or none should have voice acting

[underhill1990]

wooooooow this person knows BARELY ANYTHING about DA2 and he's already whining about it? nerd rage is one thing, but there is no basis to ANY critique of DA2 yet, you know why? BECAUSE THE GAME DOES NOT EXIST YET!!! all these butthurt bioware fanboys need to jump off a cliff already. If i ever met this guy i would strap him down and force him to play ME2 till his eyes bled

[Remaix]

Prediction time, prediction time!



The haters aren't just gonna buy it. They'll pre-order it and most likely get as much DLC as their budget allows.

[BallaZs]

underhill1990 wrote...

wooooooow this person knows BARELY ANYTHING about DA2 and he's already whining about it? nerd rage is one thing, but there is no basis to ANY critique of DA2 yet, you know why? BECAUSE THE GAME DOES NOT EXIST YET!!! all these butthurt bioware fanboys need to jump off a cliff already. If i ever met this guy i would strap him down and force him to play ME2 till his eyes bled

lol agreed

[PSUHammer]

David Gaider wrote...

MFCell wrote...

I base my greivances on the fact that Mass Effect was a boring, easy, uninspiring slog thru a tired and easily manipulatated dialogue and combat system.

If you think for a SECOND that I'm not basing my bashing of this game on real world experience, your wrong David.

I cannot stand to play ME for more than 2 hours at the time, while I could play DA:O for days on end.  All of the problems I have with DA2 are present in ME 1 and 2, and are being moved into DA2 like it is some kind of step forward.

You guys have lost touch.

Did you just come back into the room after making your dramatic exit?

You were standing right outside, waiting, weren't you?

Gosh, that is so embarassing.

   Nice...I was waiting for that response.  What a funny thread.

[Clovis-]

I'm curious if the provided voice will simply have a male/female dichotomy like Mass Effect; or if we will have separate optional inflections/voices (for both male and female) on the same dialog choices depending on whether you are playing a more heroic or anti-heroic character.



Because I often found the voice actor of Shepard in Mass Effect to be toooo neutral on many dialog choices simply because he would run the risk of sounding too "paragon" or "renegade".

[PSUHammer]

McNoguff wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


To be or not to be
Whether 'tis nobler in the RPG to suffer
The slings and arrows of developer whims
Or to take arms against a wheel of dialogue
And, by opposing, play not.

Since the OP isn't going to be here to respond in kind, I thought I'd venture a guess as to what he might say:

I will tell you why; so shall my anticipation prevented be and so too my assumed lost Warden King
and Anora Queene: Post no flame war, I have of late, though wherefore
I know not, lost all my mirth, forgoing custom'ry pleasure
in RPGs. It goes so horridly with my disposition
that this goodly Ferelden, seems to me a sterile
Promontory; this most excellent Canopy the Fade, look you, this brave taupe-shaded, black city'd roof fretted with golden fire: Why, it appears no other thing
to me than a licence for petulance and constipated thought.
What a piece of work am I! How reduced in
Reason? How infinite in incredulity? In form and moving how depressed and unamiable? In action, how like a child?
In apprehension, how like a brat? The beauty of the game world, dwarven Paragons and animals: To me, What is this quintessence of Dustown? Dragon age delights
Not me, no. Nor woman either
For none will sleep with me.

ROFL  

[Rubbish Hero]

David Gaider wrote...And one thing I actually like, from a writing perspective, is the ability to use player voice to initiate an exchange based on a selection. If the player elects to furiously argue with someone, we can carry on that exchange back and forth a bit rather than forcing the player to select every single response.

But then we are watching a  movie sequence of a character talking than the player
directly imputing anything.  Sounds bad. Sounds alot like presentation over gameplay.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 11 juillet 2010 - 03:07 .

[Rubbish Hero]

So far the game has been screaming "Mass Effect" than "CRPG" or "baldurs gate". Let's hope when more info dribbles in this isn't the case.

[GN-Lelldorianx]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

So far the game has been screaming "Mass Effect" than "CRPG" or "baldurs gate". Let's hope when more info dribbles in this isn't the case.

Sometimes it is humorous to watch a ferocious exchange of dialogue, I often enjoy it as a break in the tough decisions. Sure, you might not be choosing exactly what insults to use, but we all know that your initial choice was to bash this incompetent NPC until he cries. You chose the path, the writers made it fun

[bzombo]

i'm trying to keep an open mind since there is so little out there information-wise. i have no me2 experience, just is not my style of game. this conversation stuff everyone is getting upset about: is it the conversation system used in lelianna's song? i would pick a line and what she said was not what i picked. what i picked was a short paraphrasing of it. if this is the issue, i don't see the problem as long as enough options are there. how i speak to my companions matters less to me than how much i can say to them and how well it is written.



my main concern about the game is the combat system. i like the tactical style where you can pause with the space bar like dao and the baldur's gate series. i thought the tactics were a nice improvement to the system. i hope combat is like that. the marketing has me a bit worried so far about combat, but who knows until we hear more.

[bzombo]

nikki191 wrote...

i personally found the silent main character in DAO a very jarring experience, for me either all or none should have voice acting

the silent warden thing was kinda weird for me at first. i understand why it was done. the amount they'd have to spend on all that voice acting would have been enormous to voice 3 races for both genders. a voiced pc is not so bad. i just don't want to be confined to such a small range of personalities. if hawke can be voiced with a lot of range and personality, then so be it.

[ChrisFetch]

I loved Dragon Age but i think id have to agree with the people who are a little more action oriented. I would love to see it more like the fighting in elder scrolls. I am what you would call an immersive gamer and like to feel "in" the game if you will. Hitting the A button and watching things unfold is a constant reminder that I am playing a game. Everything else should stay as it is. Bioware is a deity to me in the gaming world. Who wants a DAO and ME MMO? A literal army of rabid fans!