51 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

That isn't at all odd for women (the crying), but I don't think a male could live that down if they said that in public lol...

A man who isn't afraid to cry or show emotion is more of a man than one who doesn't.

[HoonDing]

Addai67 wrote...

The LOTR movies actually made more of the central romance (Aragorn + Arwen) than the books did, but that doesn't mean relationships do not figure heavily in the LOTR story.  The overt romance is more in the background, and more sublimated to capital-R Romance, but it's still heavily there.  Take Gimli and Galadriel.  Their interaction is a Romance in a more medieval form- the figure of an unattainable lady which inspires the heroic deeds of a warrior.  That is essentially the Arwen romance, too.  Just because no one's rolling around in the sheets doesn't mean that romance is not present.

Not to mention, the tension between Éowyn & Aragorn is very important to the plot. Tolkien even includes a mini-love triangle near the end of the third book.

The best romance story from Tolkien, though, is Beren & Lúthien (themselves ancestors of Aragorn & Arwen) from the Silmarillion since it was based on his own experiences.

[wildannie]

Romance, sex, friends, family, relationships... these are massively important parts of all of our real lives (I hope) and therfore, for me, I find having a good romance in an RPG compelling, its the romance and friendships that set DAO apart.



I loved Oblivion, and Fallout 3 but in the end I always felt my PC was a bit sad and lonely.

[CalJones]

Yes, the same - I find the romances and friendships of a game is one of the main reasons I'll replay.

[Sarah1281]

I don't understand why people who do appreciate the romances are including in their statements things about how friendship is important to add an element of humanity to the game since, as far as I can tell, no one said that they didn't want to be able to talk to their party members or that they wanted them to be strangers, just that they didn't see the need for ROMANCE. Friendship is something completely different and by making 'I don't like the romance' into 'I must hate NPC interaction' it's really turning that point of view into a strawman. 'I don't want to seriously flirt with/kiss/have sex with/love my companions' does not equate to 'I do not want to talk to them at all and why can't they just stand in the background when they're not fighting?'

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281, that wasn't my point in bringing up friendships. What I was trying to do is explain how romances and relationships add to a deeper story. No one said anything of what you're saying, nor was it implied.



I don't like "love stories" for the most part -- I find them boring; I really like adventure and fantasy stories. But I can't think of a story I liked that didn't have some romance in it -- it's just part of the human condition.

[Sarah1281]

Well I felt that it was implied when people were saying 'You don't like the romances? But romances and friendships are so very important! Why don't you see that?' Otherwise, why bring up the friendship that nobody apparently took issue with? Though inferences are subjective, of course.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

That isn't at all odd for women (the crying), but I don't think a male could live that down if they said that in public lol...

A man who isn't afraid to cry or show emotion is more of a man than one who doesn't.

A generalised statement as false as its counterpart.

Some people are by nature introverted and prefer to keep their emotions to themselves. That doesn't make them any less manly (whatever that means) than the extroverted ones. And vice versa is also true.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 juillet 2010 - 02:41 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't understand why people who do appreciate the romances are including in their statements things about how friendship is important to add an element of humanity to the game since, as far as I can tell, no one said that they didn't want to be able to talk to their party members or that they wanted them to be strangers, just that they didn't see the need for ROMANCE. Friendship is something completely different and by making 'I don't like the romance' into 'I must hate NPC interaction' it's really turning that point of view into a strawman. 'I don't want to seriously flirt with/kiss/have sex with/love my companions' does not equate to 'I do not want to talk to them at all and why can't they just stand in the background when they're not fighting?'

Friendship is different from romance??  That's news to me.  My husband is my best friend.  Not all friendships turn into romances, to be sure, but it is rather the way of things that they often do, especially for the young and unattached as most of our PCs and the NPCs are.  It makes the story more believable to at least have that as an option.  I don't even think a tent scene is necessary- I would be happy with a fade to black, though the emotional content in the mod scenes like DahliaLynn's is fantastic.

As a general remark about romances in DAO:  They are the primary way I come to know who my character is.  Our Wardens are ripped out of their other primary relationships.  Unless you're willing to invest a lot of thought into creating a backstory or epilogue story, the LI is the most significant attachment we see our characters in.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 juillet 2010 - 03:06 .

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well I felt that it was implied when people were saying 'You don't like the romances? But romances and friendships are so very important! Why don't you see that?' Otherwise, why bring up the friendship that nobody apparently took issue with? Though inferences are subjective, of course.

I guess it's because I've never read a good story that didn't have elements of both.  The close bonding you get with friends in that wartime/adventuring whatever situation can easily turn to love if there's a mutual attraction in there as well.  And some love stories in and of themselves are epic, or a major major part of a bigger story.

The thing is, when people complain about the romances in DAO and tell people it's not a dating sim, they're missing the point.  The romance, falling in love, whatever, is not the point of DAO, but it does add richness to the story.  You can play, and enjoy, DAO without them.  You can bond with your companions, become Morrigan's best friend, be Alistair's right hand man, have Zevran offering to die for you, have Leliana, well, being Leliana without romance.  This makes for a very full game, the friendship aspect.  But add the romance, just two characters falling in love, it adds some intensity to the situation.  The dark ritual takes on a deeper meaning if you're in a romance, but for different reasons.  It's not too difficult to be the great hero if you're not in love with someone -- but if you are, then you not only are looking to end the blight, but looking beyond it as well.

Anyway, people who don't get the romance aspect that is involved in most great stories or don't like it, well, that's fine.  But I include both love and friendship because the best stories I think show relationships forming, both love AND friendship.  The ones that touch a cord don't have those in a vaccuum.

Ramble over

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't understand why people who do appreciate the romances are including in their statements things about how friendship is important to add an element of humanity to the game since, as far as I can tell, no one said that they didn't want to be able to talk to their party members or that they wanted them to be strangers, just that they didn't see the need for ROMANCE. Friendship is something completely different and by making 'I don't like the romance' into 'I must hate NPC interaction' it's really turning that point of view into a strawman. 'I don't want to seriously flirt with/kiss/have sex with/love my companions' does not equate to 'I do not want to talk to them at all and why can't they just stand in the background when they're not fighting?'

Friendship is different from romance??  That's news to me.  My husband is my best friend.  Not all friendships turn into romances, to be sure, but it is rather the way of things that they often do, especially for the young and unattached as most of our PCs and the NPCs are.  It makes the story more believable to at least have that as an option.  I don't even think a tent scene is necessary- I would be happy with a fade to black, though the emotional content in the mod scenes like DahliaLynn's is fantastic.

As a general remark about romances in DAO:  They are the primary way I come to know who my character is.  Our Wardens are ripped out of their other primary relationships.  Unless you're willing to invest a lot of thought into creating a backstory or epilogue story, the LI is the most significant attachment we see our characters in.

Friendship being different from romance is news to you? That's a really really bizarre thing to say unless your husband is the only friend you have or you've romanced everyone else you can count as a friend.

I didn't say you couldn't be friends with your love interest but you can be friends with everyone but Alistair in the party regardless of whether he's your LI+friend, LI, friend, or neither.

I'm not against the idea of LI in the game, it just happens that I prefer to keep Alistair, Morrigan, Leliana, and Zevran in the friend-zone. Maybe no one is trying to imply that doing that makes you have a shallower experience but that's the vibe I'm getting and I don't like it. I RP the hell out of my characters and for a few the romances fit but for others (including my canon playthrough) they don't.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

That isn't at all odd for women (the crying), but I don't think a male could live that down if they said that in public lol...

A man who isn't afraid to cry or show emotion is more of a man than one who doesn't.

A generalised statement as false as its counterpart.

Some people are by nature introverted and prefer to keep their emotions to themselves. That doesn't make them any less manly (whatever that means) than the extroverted ones. And vice versa is also true.

Hmm, you're right, it does sound like a generalized statement and I didn't intended to be that way. What I really meant was that there's nothing "unmanly" about showing emotion.

I apologize for making it sound like a generalized statement. It was a knee jerk reaction because the whole "real men don't cry" has always bothered me. But what you said is equally true.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 13 juillet 2010 - 03:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Sarah.I
do think romances provide a different angle on characters and sometimes provide more insight, especially someone like Morrigan. Freindship with her is great and very meaningful. But romancing her provides, imo, a better or more complete insight on her character.

Not saying it's a shallower experience when it comes to Morrigan as a character. But it's less complete.

@ Zjarcal
No apologies needed

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 juillet 2010 - 03:27 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Sarah.I
do think romances provide a different angle on characters and sometimes provide more insight, especially someone like Morrigan. Freindship with her is great and very meaningful. But romancing her provides, imo, a better or more complete insight on her character.

Not saying it's a shallower experience when it comes to Morrigan as a character. But it's less complete.

Yes, it you want a more complete view of the companions you should put them as friend, LI-if-possible, and enemy and I've done it with them all. I still like all four better as friends.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'm not against the idea of LI in the game, it just happens that I prefer to keep Alistair, Morrigan, Leliana, and Zevran in the friend-zone. Maybe no one is trying to imply that doing that makes you have a shallower experience but that's the vibe I'm getting and I don't like it. I RP the hell out of my characters and for a few the romances fit but for others (including my canon playthrough) they don't.

I do find it shallower, but to each her own.  I also know you're one of those who puts significant thought into your PC, so it's fine if you don't see a romance as necessary to explore the character.

The romances add to the depth of the NPCs' character, too, not only for the sake of establishing the PC.  I enjoyed befriending Morrigan and did so with most of my female Wardens, but I got more insight into her character on the game where she was my PC's LI.  Simply having new dialogue adds to the character picture.  Zevran really opened up for me first when I learned to appreciate him as LI.  Then I could appreciate him all the more on Wardens where he remained in the Friend zone.

[Sarah1281]

I think it would be shallower if you shoehorned a character into a romance that didn't fit because you wanted to do a romance. Now, given there are four very different options that's not going to be as much of an issue because there's a good chance you'll find at least one for your character but if you have someone that honestly none of them fit for and that wouldn't be interested if the personalities did line up because of species issues then you can either force one and have it be artificial or they're going to stay single.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea for some of my PCs, I do no romance because it wouldn't true to their character. Dain Aeducan, my 2nd canon, romanced no one for instance and I really enjoyed playing as him.

[ejoslin]

Not all stories are for everyone. A poorly written romance is just poor writing; it's not a condemnation of romance in a story. A romance should be interwoven with the character so it adds to instead of distracts from the plot. I think DA did a great job of that.  The friendships are also very rich, however.  It was great the way I actually cared for my companions, romanced or no.

One detail I found interesting was the tone of voices used when romancing a character vs not romancing them. Alistair's greeting goes from warm to deeply infatuated to more formal if in a relationship; as a friend his voice just gets warmer as the approval goes up, but there's still a distance there. Zevran, romanced, actually sounds happier as his approval goes up -- not romanced he's still pretty remote.

Edit: Grammar is a fabulous thing.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 juillet 2010 - 04:53 .

[maxernst]

There's certainly no NEED to romance the characters and whether I do or not depends on the PC. In fact, I never played through all of the romance in BG2 or NWN2 because my PC's simply didn't like the romanceable character that much. But if you consider the situation--a group of people working closely together, camping together, fighting together for a whole year--it feels natural that romances might arise. And it adds certain dimensions to the story because it can affect your decisions. Certainly, my canon Warden would never have done the Dark Ritual if he hadn't been in love.



And yes, you certainly do see different sides of a person when you romance them than when they're friends--in real life as well as in games. Ask anybody who has had a relationship with someone that they've been friends with for a long time.

[wildannie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't understand why people who do appreciate the romances are including in their statements things about how friendship is important to add an element of humanity to the game since, as far as I can tell, no one said that they didn't want to be able to talk to their party members or that they wanted them to be strangers, just that they didn't see the need for ROMANCE. Friendship is something completely different and by making 'I don't like the romance' into 'I must hate NPC interaction' it's really turning that point of view into a strawman. 'I don't want to seriously flirt with/kiss/have sex with/love my companions' does not equate to 'I do not want to talk to them at all and why can't they just stand in the background when they're not fighting?'

Sorry if I offended, that was not what I intended to imply when I mentioned friendship alongside romance.  I just view all of the different relationship interactions together and equally as important to the games depth so it was natural for me to mention their merits together.  I believe the game would have been lesser if any of these elements had been omitted. 
I was also contrasting with Oblivion and Fallout 3 which were sadly lacking in convincing friendships never mind romance. 

[Highdragonslayer]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't understand why people who do appreciate the romances are including in their statements things about how friendship is important to add an element of humanity to the game since, as far as I can tell, no one said that they didn't want to be able to talk to their party members or that they wanted them to be strangers, just that they didn't see the need for ROMANCE. Friendship is something completely different and by making 'I don't like the romance' into 'I must hate NPC interaction' it's really turning that point of view into a strawman. 'I don't want to seriously flirt with/kiss/have sex with/love my companions' does not equate to 'I do not want to talk to them at all and why can't they just stand in the background when they're not fighting?'

Typical conversation in an RPG,

Hey

How are you doing?

Good, you?

Im great tell me about your past.

Okay we barely know eachother but I will.

I was a bad dude and now im good.

That's cool your naughty

Let's have sex

Okay

[thegreateski]

No. That's how conversations in slash fics go.

[frostajulie]

The purpose of romance in a video game is to appeal to a wider audience, create a richer gaming experience that also promotes replayability and add to the story. I haven't enjoyed a game so much since I was a kid and played Zelda a link to the past on my supernintendo. I know this game would not have held my interest as long as it has without the romance. It adds so much to the role playing aspect of my characters. I am currently playing a bloodmage that will romance Leiliana only to betray her at the ashes and kill her and oh the power of such a story. My last Cousland romanced Alistair and then left him at the gate doing the US. This would not have been such an epic tale without the tragedy of my characters romance My first US was a mage elf that lost it when AListair walked out on her and didn't want to live in a world without him. I know its sappy but what a story. I cried on that one. The emotional connection that the player feels when a romance is well written and included is a powerful draw to return to the game and play a new character and tell a different story. For me the purpose is clear to make me happy as I create a story and a character that I am emotionally invested in enough to play 40+ hours with over and over again. My favorite Books, movies and TV shows always have a romance central to the story I am absolutely thrilled to see that videogames are starting to follow that trend, it is so much more immersive. TV had John Sheriden and Delen, Xena and Gabrielle, Sawyer and Kate, books have Richard and Kahlan, Movies have Well, Christian Slater, Brad Pitt, and you know lots of hot guys doing romantic things for pretty girls, and now video games have Alistair and my characters, Zevran and my characters, Leiliana and my characters and Morrigan and that one elf with a death wish. I love romance in my gaming experience and after being so spoiled in DA:O I can't look at my other games the same.

[Sarah1281]

thegreateski wrote...

No. That's how conversations in slash fics go.

Are you still traumatized about that? 

[thegreateski]

Barney and friends Sarah! BARNEY AND FRIENDS!