31 réponses à ce sujet

[Apophis2412]

Let me first start by saying that although I agree that some fans might havevalid concerns the amount of complaing that this board has suffered in thse past few days is getting on my nerves. So my below my reaction, pasted from Word, so sorry for the different type of text:




When I visit the Bioware forums I sometimes feel like a scientist observing some strange animal species or culture with it’s own set of customs, traditions and ritualistic behaviors. I have observed that whenever Bioware announces that they are working on a new game the reactions of the fans are always the same. As time goes on these reactions change, but still several patterns can be observed. I basically think that there are three distinct phases which the reactions of the fans go through.
 
Phase I: OH NOES!!!!111!!!
This phase starts when the game is first announced and the first little pieces of information are revealed. From Baldur’s Gate 2, one of the greatest games ever made, to Dragon Age Origins, the reactions of the fans on the forums have always been very negative. More than half of the fans on the forums think that this new game will be so bad it will be the end of the world as we know it. The wildest of rumors are considered as facts and entire theories are derived from the smallest pieces of information. In short they whine a lot. It is during this time that we see the cries that Bioware is selling out to EA. And let’s not forget all the ‘hardcore’ or ‘old school’ fans who are complaining that Bioware is ‘dumbing down’ the game for the stupid console and FPS fanboys.
                The prevailing thought seems to be that because the new game is different from the old game it must automatically suck. The first reason I believe fans react this way is that they are irrationally afraid that Bioware will make a bad game. Up until now Bioware has made only good games. None of them have earned less than an 8 or B in most reviews. From Baldur’s Gate to ME2, BW has always used the same formulae, whether it be collecting Star Maps, allies to fight against the Blight or the most badass people in the universe. Because of BW’s track record to make good games many fans have become very devoted and any small change to the standard formula is perceived as being able to stop Bioware’s ability to make good games.
The second reason people whine is that at heart BW’s games are role-playing games. We don’t play these kind of games for fun. We play RPG’s to escape from reality and become the person we could never be in real life, whether it be saving the universe from the Reapers or being Alistair’s queen. As such we devote a lot of time to these games and even create our very own world that we escape to every day. No one’s interpretation of the game world is the same, as can be seen from the hordes of fanfiction or the many different opinions that exist about people like Anora, Alistair and Loghain. In short we create our very own escapist world with the tools (the game) that Bioware gives us. Any new game that is released means that we have to leave this world we have nurtured and developed over these past few years behind and that we have start anew. Just like moving to a new city in real life is scary so is moving to a new game world.
To summarize the first two reasons: People whine because they love the game. There is of course a third reason that many of Bioware´s boards are filled with all these whiners. Forums on the internet have always been filled with the vocal minority. The people who are okay with the changes don’t bother with posting on the forums, because other that a short ‘keep up the good work BW’ there is not much for them to really talk about.
At around the same time the whiners pop up we see the Bioware apologetics stand up. Although very small in number they are nevertheless noticeable by all the threads they make calling forums an end to all of the whining. In sharp contrast to the whiners they seem to agree with every decision that BW has made. Why I mention them is that I sincerely doubt that they took this position because they really like all the changes that are made. They only take this stand because they take pity on Bioware for getting such a negative reaction from their fans.
 
Phase II: More info is revealed.
Gradually as more info is revealed people either seem to whine a lot more than they previously did or calm down. Some people will take this new information as just more evidence that this new game will be the worst thing since Big Rigs of the Road Racing. Some might even proclaim that they will leave the community or boycott EA/BW if their specific demands aren’t being met and the new game isn’t being tailored to them alone.
On the other hand some people might finally see the light and, after reading the new information, calm down and look at the game in a objective manner.

 [/b]Phase III: Acceptance.
Finally the day comes the day that the game is actually released and the fans get a chance to actually play it. At last they learn to value on it’s own merits instead of the standards that a previous game set. Most people will agree that this new game, although different, is just as good as the old games. And although some people will still complain about some elements of this new game their opinions will be based on actual facts or play-experience, instead of an irrational fear of losing something.

Modifié par Apophis2412, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:25 .

[Gatt9]

I've gotta point out a few things...

1. You may want to investigate the gaming media a bit. Some sites have admitted they take orders on how to write a preview from unspecified companies, some have been caught modifying reviews at an advertisers request. Many times if you track user reviews, you'll find that low scores mysteriously disappear while high ones persist. Take a look at your favorite site, and check user reviews, note the discrepency in point spread among the ratings that are present. My genuine opinion of Mass Effect 2 mysteriously disappeared from one site...

2. The "Vocal minority" thing is a myth. There's no actual evidence of this, it's consistently something that's been used to dismiss people who complain, based on faulty logic. People assume that happy people don't post, and unhappy ones do, except they fail to acknowledge that happy people are more likely to have questions, and unhappy ones more likely to go play another game.

3. You make the logical fallacy of assuming that some new information changes the original problem people had, this is not true. If people aren't happy with the "Wheel of obvious morality" from Mass Effect, there's nothing that's going to change that.

4. Your acceptance is a massive error. One fairly recent game assumed it was going to sell 4.6 million units in it's initial shipment, but it barely sold half of that before it dropped off the NPD reports. People really do avoid some game, and then they look at all further material with suspicion. Me for example, Bioware robbed me of $70 by telling me ME2 was the sequel to ME and was an RPG. I'll guarantee you I won't buy another Bioware game until after I've read reviews, user reviews, and message boards.

You make the assumption that game X will be good because game Y was good, and that everyone will just agree that X is good after it's released. That's like saying Matrix Revolutions must've been an incredible movie because Matrix was, except it turned out that it was widely disliked.

Edit:  Or even better example,  people liked Blair Witch,  but Blair Witch 2 was made as a formulaic Horror movie and bombed as a result.  Change is not always good or accepted.

Modifié par Gatt9, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:49 .

[Ecael]

At around the same time the whiners pop up we see the Bioware apologetics stand up. Although very small in number they are nevertheless noticeable by all the threads they make calling forums an end to all of the whining. In sharp contrast to the whiners they seem to agree with every decision that BW has made. Why I mention them is that I sincerely doubt that they took this position because they really like all the changes that are made. They only take this stand because they take pity on Bioware for getting such a negative reaction from their fans.

And what if those said apologists disagree with having a non-voiced player character? Or only agree with having either no voice acting or full voice acting only?

I certainly don't think any BioWare game is perfect, but to resist all the changes made to the game just stifles creativity and leaves no room for improvement.

The general trend these days is that if you don't like a change, regardless of what it is, just accuse the game developer of:

• Dumbing down their game
• Greed
• Targeting the casual gamer

I've seen it on every game forum I've read. I've seen it on Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Mario Galaxy 2 forums.

"Nintendo is dumbing down the series for the casual player!"

Really, now?

[Layn]

yes, of course the first reaction will be the more violent, but i wouldn't say that we will just accept and be satisfied.
Our fears are based on something. Specifically Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Awakening. They changed their previous' game style to appeal to another crowd (not casual or anything... just people with a different taste). This is going to disappoint me and no matter how much info we get, it is still as true and disappointing.
heck i'm still really disappointed with Mass Effect 2 even though i already played through it's great story. And awakening... well it was nice... but really a step down from origins and i'm still disappointed.

Modifié par Crrash, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:50 .

[Ecael]

Gatt9 wrote...

I've gotta point out a few things...

1. You may want to investigate the gaming media a bit. Some sites have admitted they take orders on how to write a preview from unspecified companies, some have been caught modifying reviews at an advertisers request. Many times if you track user reviews, you'll find that low scores mysteriously disappear while high ones persist. Take a look at your favorite site, and check user reviews, note the discrepency in point spread among the ratings that are present. My genuine opinion of Mass Effect 2 mysteriously disappeared from one site...

Genuine opinion?

Here's a question: Since practically every game is backed up by a major publisher these days, why aren't they all being given 95% scores?

Sorry, this "conspiracy" doesn't just apply to the games that you don't like.

2. The "Vocal minority" thing is a myth. There's no actual evidence of this, it's consistently something that's been used to dismiss people who complain, based on faulty logic. People assume that happy people don't post, and unhappy ones do, except they fail to acknowledge that happy people are happy people are more likely to have questions, and unhappy ones more likely to go play another game.

Unhappy ones are certainly not more likely to go play another game if they spend all their time being unhappy on a forum.

The moderators know that the forum represents a vocal minority, because they know how many active non-duplicate accounts are on the forum.

3. You make the logical fallacy of assuming that some new information changes the original problem people had, this is not true. If people aren't happy with the "Wheel of obvious morality" from Mass Effect, there's nothing that's going to change that.

And if there's nothing that's going to change that, why bother catering to them in the first place? Logical fallacy indeed.

4. Your acceptance is a massive error. One fairly recent game assumed it was going to sell 4.6 million units in it's initial shipment, but it barely sold half of that before it dropped off the NPD reports. People really do avoid some game, and then they look at all further material with suspicion.

And which game is this? Is it even made by BioWare?

Me for example, Bioware robbed me of $70 by telling me ME2 was the sequel to ME and was an RPG. I'll guarantee you I won't buy another Bioware game until after I've read reviews, user reviews, and message boards.

BioWare snuck into your house in the middle of the night, took 70 dollars from your wallet and replaced it with a copy of Mass Effect 2.

Right.

You make the assumption that game X will be good because game Y was good, and that everyone will just agree that X is good after it's released. That's like saying Matrix Revolutions must've been an incredible movie because Matrix was, except it turned out that it was widely disliked.

You make the assumption that game Y will be terrible because it's not exactly like game X. As if there's only one type of RPG in the entire industry worth playing and worth developing.

Edit:  Or even better example,  people liked Blair Witch,  but Blair Witch 2 was made as a formulaic Horror movie and bombed as a result.  Change is not always good or accepted.

The lesson to be learned here is to not make a sequel at all, then.

I can't imagine all the whining that would result from people demanding a sequel when they know they won't get one.

Modifié par Ecael, 11 juillet 2010 - 08:58 .

[Kalfear]

Gatt9 wrote...

I've gotta point out a few things...

1. You may want to investigate the gaming media a bit. Some sites have admitted they take orders on how to write a preview from unspecified companies, some have been caught modifying reviews at an advertisers request. Many times if you track user reviews, you'll find that low scores mysteriously disappear while high ones persist. Take a look at your favorite site, and check user reviews, note the discrepency in point spread among the ratings that are present. My genuine opinion of Mass Effect 2 mysteriously disappeared from one site...

2. The "Vocal minority" thing is a myth. There's no actual evidence of this, it's consistently something that's been used to dismiss people who complain, based on faulty logic. People assume that happy people don't post, and unhappy ones do, except they fail to acknowledge that happy people are more likely to have questions, and unhappy ones more likely to go play another game.

3. You make the logical fallacy of assuming that some new information changes the original problem people had, this is not true. If people aren't happy with the "Wheel of obvious morality" from Mass Effect, there's nothing that's going to change that.

4. Your acceptance is a massive error. One fairly recent game assumed it was going to sell 4.6 million units in it's initial shipment, but it barely sold half of that before it dropped off the NPD reports. People really do avoid some game, and then they look at all further material with suspicion. Me for example, Bioware robbed me of $70 by telling me ME2 was the sequel to ME and was an RPG. I'll guarantee you I won't buy another Bioware game until after I've read reviews, user reviews, and message boards.

You make the assumption that game X will be good because game Y was good, and that everyone will just agree that X is good after it's released. That's like saying Matrix Revolutions must've been an incredible movie because Matrix was, except it turned out that it was widely disliked.

Edit:  Or even better example,  people liked Blair Witch,  but Blair Witch 2 was made as a formulaic Horror movie and bombed as a result.  Change is not always good or accepted.

Excellent post Gatt9. Said far more nicely then I would have but the meaning is the same!
And like you, because of ME2 false advertising and the "mysterious perfect scores" I wont be buying any Bioware games till sources I trust have reveiwed the game.
If they give a thumbs up, then ill gladly pay full price or what ever the market price is at that moment in time!
If they give thumbs down, I might try from the bargin bin or if on sale at steam but thats about it!

ME2 ruined the days of buying with out question for me and pretty much everyone I know to be honest!

[Onyx Jaguar]

It's always something!

[BallaZs]

Crrash wrote...

yes, of course the first reaction will be the more violent, but i wouldn't say that we will just accept and be satisfied.
Our fears are based on something. Specifically Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Awakening. They changed their previous' game style to appeal to another crowd (not casual or anything... just people with a different taste). This is going to disappoint me and no matter how much info we get, it is still as true and disappointing.
heck i'm still really disappointed with Mass Effect 2 even though i already played through it's great story. And awakening... well it was nice... but really a step down from origins and i'm still disappointed.

I agree with u some points. Awekaning was really different from Origns, but compared to it's 15-10 hours gameplay its hard to imagine a deep dialogue system with it.
I say let's just sit back and wait. There are ppl who are getting desperately dissapointed on those few info about DA2.
Why? I mean as from what I've heard the game isn't bad after all. I dislike that the human race will be playable only. But that's all. The conception of playing a refugee is great in my opinion. I do belive that we'll get far more deeper and more intresting story in exchange. We still do not known if they are going to change the dialogue system or the combat system. They have only siad that they'll improve it. But I've seen many guy who were whining about that as well, even if Bioware just mentioined it.
It's like the ppl out there wants a same game as Origins with no improves, upgrades, etc.
Many concerns is based on wild goosips.
So keep your theories, until we get more information about DA2, and no need the get desperate or abandon the game already.
That's my opinion

[CalJones]

I used to be a PC games journalist, back in the days when people bought magazines because the Internet was in its infancy and few people were connected (particularly in the UK, where I'm from). As such I've been playing Bioware games since they started up. When they came to my office to demo BG, I was thrilled that someone was actually making an RPG, because I'd seen little other than FPS for the previous few years.

Consequently, I have a real soft spot for Bioware and have enjoyed all their PC games, with the possible exception of NWN, which bored me, to be honest (though essentially they were selling a toolkit with a bit of a game bolted on. And as a toolkit, it succeeded pretty well).

I must admit I was dubious about the changes in ME2. I absolutely loved ME - why tinker with a classic? At first I was taken aback by the lack of inventory, and the fact you had to pick up ammo. But later I began to appreciate the fact I didn't have to lug round a huge sack of guns and armour (most of which I was going to omnigel anyway). I liked the research and upgrade system, and whilst I wasn't thrilled by the planet scanning game, I didn't hate it either. The story wasn't as epic as the first game's but it was decent. And damn if I didn't play through the whole thing eight times consecutively.

What I'm trying to say, in my rambling, roundabout manner, is that DA2 may have some changes, but I highly doubt the game is going to suck. Perhaps it won't quite measure up to DA:O, or perhaps it will even exceed it. However it turns out, I do expect that it'll be enjoyable. Bioware hasn't let me down yet.

[Rogue Unit]

Gatt9 wrote...

I've gotta point out a few things...

1. You may want to investigate the gaming media a bit. Some sites have admitted they take orders on how to write a preview from unspecified companies, some have been caught modifying reviews at an advertisers request. Many times if you track user reviews, you'll find that low scores mysteriously disappear while high ones persist. Take a look at your favorite site, and check user reviews, note the discrepency in point spread among the ratings that are present. My genuine opinion of Mass Effect 2 mysteriously disappeared from one site...

2. The "Vocal minority" thing is a myth. There's no actual evidence of this, it's consistently something that's been used to dismiss people who complain, based on faulty logic. People assume that happy people don't post, and unhappy ones do, except they fail to acknowledge that happy people are more likely to have questions, and unhappy ones more likely to go play another game.

3. You make the logical fallacy of assuming that some new information changes the original problem people had, this is not true. If people aren't happy with the "Wheel of obvious morality" from Mass Effect, there's nothing that's going to change that.

4. Your acceptance is a massive error. One fairly recent game assumed it was going to sell 4.6 million units in it's initial shipment, but it barely sold half of that before it dropped off the NPD reports. People really do avoid some game, and then they look at all further material with suspicion. Me for example, Bioware robbed me of $70 by telling me ME2 was the sequel to ME and was an RPG. I'll guarantee you I won't buy another Bioware game until after I've read reviews, user reviews, and message boards.

You make the assumption that game X will be good because game Y was good, and that everyone will just agree that X is good after it's released. That's like saying Matrix Revolutions must've been an incredible movie because Matrix was, except it turned out that it was widely disliked.

Edit:  Or even better example,  people liked Blair Witch,  but Blair Witch 2 was made as a formulaic Horror movie and bombed as a result.  Change is not always good or accepted.

Lol robbed?
I assume you were held at gunpoint?

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 11 juillet 2010 - 09:23 .

[CalJones]

Gatt9 wrote...

I've gotta point out a few things...

1. You may want to investigate the gaming media a bit. Some sites have admitted they take orders on how to write a preview from unspecified companies, some have been caught modifying reviews at an advertisers request. Many times if you track user reviews, you'll find that low scores mysteriously disappear while high ones persist. Take a look at your favorite site, and check user reviews, note the discrepency in point spread among the ratings that are present. My genuine opinion of Mass Effect 2 mysteriously disappeared from one site...

Sadly this does happen. I was fortunate to work on magazines that had a lot of integrity, but I heard "pull this review or we pull our advertising" more than a few times. Some editors would also offer covers in return for exclusive reviews - and due to the month lead time on print mags, that often mean them reviewing buggy beta (or even alpha) code. Again, high scores were often promised. One particular magazine editor was notorious for giving favourable coverage in return for cocaine.
I guess it's not so different now with web-based coverage, other than the fact the lead times don't really exist any more. As the websites are accessible for free, they are even more dependant upon advertising than the magazines were, so the advertisers have more influence. In the current economic climate, it's even tougher.

[Darkieus]

Gatt9 wrote...

I've gotta point out a few things...

1. You may want to investigate the gaming media a bit. Some sites have admitted they take orders on how to write a preview from unspecified companies, some have been caught modifying reviews at an advertisers request. Many times if you track user reviews, you'll find that low scores mysteriously disappear while high ones persist. Take a look at your favorite site, and check user reviews, note the discrepency in point spread among the ratings that are present. My genuine opinion of Mass Effect 2 mysteriously disappeared from one site...

2. The "Vocal minority" thing is a myth. There's no actual evidence of this, it's consistently something that's been used to dismiss people who complain, based on faulty logic. People assume that happy people don't post, and unhappy ones do, except they fail to acknowledge that happy people are more likely to have questions, and unhappy ones more likely to go play another game.

3. You make the logical fallacy of assuming that some new information changes the original problem people had, this is not true. If people aren't happy with the "Wheel of obvious morality" from Mass Effect, there's nothing that's going to change that.

4. Your acceptance is a massive error. One fairly recent game assumed it was going to sell 4.6 million units in it's initial shipment, but it barely sold half of that before it dropped off the NPD reports. People really do avoid some game, and then they look at all further material with suspicion. Me for example, Bioware robbed me of $70 by telling me ME2 was the sequel to ME and was an RPG. I'll guarantee you I won't buy another Bioware game until after I've read reviews, user reviews, and message boards.

You make the assumption that game X will be good because game Y was good, and that everyone will just agree that X is good after it's released. That's like saying Matrix Revolutions must've been an incredible movie because Matrix was, except it turned out that it was widely disliked.

Edit:  Or even better example,  people liked Blair Witch,  but Blair Witch 2 was made as a formulaic Horror movie and bombed as a result.  Change is not always good or accepted.

^ This. I believe until Dragon Age 2 shows off more RPG elements, it's essentially been dumbed down for the Console kittens.

[Onyx Jaguar]

yes yes, lets introduce a new insult to every argument to cover every single base

[Layn]

BallaZs wrote...

It's like the ppl out there wants a same game as Origins with no improves, upgrades, etc.

we want origins with improvements and upgrades, but what they seem to be doing isn't improving for a lot of us, but actually replacing with a system we don't like for dragon age.
You can really bring it down to one thing: Bioware says they intend to deliver us a cinematic story. we (who complain) DON'T want a cinematic story presentation. We don't want the character to act for us and show emotion for us. We actually WANT the lifeless puppet, so we can fill it with life as we intend. Thats all there is to it.
It's sad to see that go. The game will be good. i will enjoy it. But i know that (just like in ME2) i will think how much better it could have been (for me. of course for others this actually is better)

[Lord Gremlin]

Here's a video version OP:

[asaiasai]

No game is perfect and no game is going to cater to every one, that is simple fact. The problem is in a nut shell that game design is an art form, and all artists go through a period where thier work is different and in some cases it is better and being honest sometimes it just plain sucks. When you have a title like DAO which is probably one of the best games of its type.... EVER... and you change or try something new people are going to react anywhere from woohoo to WTF!.

But unless i am mistaken and the rules of consumerism have changed as the customer i am always right, if not i will go to a bussiness that is more in line with my philosophy to spend my money. Everyone has opinions while some people might choose the negative side of things by claiming that people who complain on the forums are whiners i myself preffer to look at it as passionate fans voicing thier legitimate concerns about the direction the artist is going. Some people will buy or watch anything and be happy some folks are a bit more discerning in thier tastes, i myself am the later as opposed to the former, as such i will not accept any ol thing just because, unless the comapny or artist has delivered in the past. I might not like the direction the artist is going and i might need some further explination as to why this direction was chosen, but contrary to your post there is nothing wrong with that.

The people on these forums myself included who take the time from thier schedules to post comments, complaints, or rave about a title should not be dismissed, not if you want to sell them anything in the future. The artist is entitled to dismiss any or all feed back as is thier right as the content creator, but as a consumer i also have the right to take my money else where. I myself have already posted that i am willing to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt concerning DA2 as so far i have not been let down by the DA series, and i hope that day never arrives, but no artist or company is always going to hit a homerun everytime the step up to the plate.

People are strange in that for the most part change upsets them but considering what happened to Mass Effect with the release of Mass Effect 2 i would have to say that some of the drama is well deserved. So as every other poster on these forums OP you have the right to dismiss the "drama" or feed into it, but what you do speaks more about your character than thiers.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 11 juillet 2010 - 09:38 .

[biomag]

Crrash wrote...

BallaZs wrote...

It's like the ppl out there wants a same game as Origins with no improves, upgrades, etc.

we want origins with improvements and upgrades, but what they seem to be doing isn't improving for a lot of us, but actually replacing with a system we don't like for dragon age.
You can really bring it down to one thing: Bioware says they intend to deliver us a cinematic story. we (who complain) DON'T want a cinematic story presentation. We don't want the character to act for us and show emotion for us. We actually WANT the lifeless puppet, so we can fill it with life as we intend. Thats all there is to it.
It's sad to see that go. The game will be good. i will enjoy it. But i know that (just like in ME2) i will think how much better it could have been (for me. of course for others this actually is better)

...except you can't feel the puppet with emmotion... In none of those holy grail games people refere to complaining about ME. ME 1 and even more 2 gave you those tools as the dialogs were more dynamic than any previous game or DA:O.

Just because you can't choose among 10 meaningless lines to speak it doesn't mean you can't play your character to a great detail. Only when people are that dumb that they reduce their whole gaming experience to a 100% paragon or renegade then your reactions are limited.

Another point that people should remember before whining (sorry, most here surpassed complaining already by a wide margin) is what Gaider said: Shepards reaction were stoic as it fitted his soldier background, they won't do the same with Hawke. They will give him wider options to choose from the wheel. I doubt they will reduce it to paragon/renegade.

[snfonseka]

Crrash wrote...

yes, of course the first reaction will be the more violent, but i wouldn't say that we will just accept and be satisfied.
Our fears are based on something. Specifically Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Awakening. They changed their previous' game style to appeal to another crowd (not casual or anything... just people with a different taste). This is going to disappoint me and no matter how much info we get, it is still as true and disappointing.
heck i'm still really disappointed with Mass Effect 2 even though i already played through it's great story. And awakening... well it was nice... but really a step down from origins and i'm still disappointed.

BW said that dragon age would be spiritual successor to Baldurs gate and when we take a look at DA: A Bioware has taken steps away from that path. So our fear is that BW will take more steps away from that "spiritual successor to Baldurs gate" path and give us a action-adventure game with some RPG elements.

[Layn]

biomag wrote...

...except you can't feel the puppet with emmotion...

uuuuh. yes i can. i did in dragon age. 

biomag wrote...
ME 1 and even more 2 gave you those tools as the dialogs were more dynamic than any previous game or DA:O.

no they weren't. You were Shepard. You were stuck to the military persona and just could decide between being nice, nasty, indifferent or bipolar Shepard.
I know to you it's the other way around, because you experience the games differently. But understand that for me this is worse and removes what i liked the most about Dragon Age origins

biomag wrote...
Just because you can't choose among 10 meaningless lines to speak it doesn't mean you can't play your character to a great detail.

the thing is, they aren't meaningless, they define the nuances of my character, even if it doesn't change the game too much.

biomag wrote...
Only when people are that dumb that they reduce their whole gaming experience to a 100% paragon or renegade then your reactions are limited.

except that since you don't know what exactly Shep is going to say, it's hard to know when to choose a negative dialog without turning Shep completely inconsistent.

biomag wrote...
Another point that people should remember before whining (sorry, most here surpassed complaining already by a wide margin) is what Gaider said: Shepards reaction were stoic as it fitted his soldier background, they won't do the same with Hawke. They will give him wider options to choose from the wheel. I doubt they will reduce it to paragon/renegade.

yes that is good. But the wheel still limits things by not writing out what exactly Hawke will say. As does the voice and everything else that has been announced.

[OriginsIsBest]

Im not reading all of that!



Nippes.

[Apophis2412]

[quote]Gatt9 wrote...

I've gotta point out a few things...

1. You may want to investigate the gaming media a bit. Some sites have admitted they take orders on how to write a preview from unspecified companies, some have been caught modifying reviews at an advertisers request. Many times if you track user reviews, you'll find that low scores mysteriously disappear while high ones persist. Take a look at your favorite site, and check user reviews, note the discrepency in point spread among the ratings that are present. My genuine opinion of Mass Effect 2 mysteriously disappeared from one site... .[/quote]

[/quote]

Are you refering to things like what happened with Jeff Gertsmann? (http://en.wikipedia..../Jeff_Gerstmann)

I've looked at what Metacritic thinks of ME2 and of the 54 reviews they listed only one gave it a score lower than an 8. If you are correct this means that:

A. Of all those critics only one is being honest.
B. BW/EA bribed 53 reviewsites to give them a good rating.

I also looked at the user reviews. Again I feel you are incorrect. Although there are numerous 10 and 9's on the first page I could also easily find several 5's and 6's.

What I said about Metacritic also applies to Gamerankings. Of the 73 reviews for the XBOX360 version only one gave it something below an 8.


[quote]
2. The "Vocal minority" thing is a myth. There's no actual evidence of this, it's consistently something that's been used to dismiss people who complain, based on faulty logic. People assume that happy people don't post, and unhappy ones do, except they fail to acknowledge that happy people are more likely to have questions, and unhappy ones more likely to go play another game. [/quote]

1. Despite the fact these boards being filled with topics about how ME2 was the worst game ever it has sold very well.
2. People who are unhappy with BW´s games still post on these forums. They may not like the new games, but they still like BW.

[quote]3. You make the logical fallacy of assuming that some new information changes the original problem people had, this is not true. If people aren't happy with the "Wheel of obvious morality" from Mass Effect, there's nothing that's going to change that.
[/quote]

No. People make assumptions on new features of a new game, based on to little information. Despite the fact that we have only received a small press release people are assuming that the new main character, Hawke, is the worst thing ever.


[quote]
4. Your acceptance is a massive error. One fairly recent game assumed it was going to sell 4.6 million units in it's initial shipment, but it barely sold half of that before it dropped off the NPD reports. People really do avoid some game, and then they look at all further material with suspicion. Me for example, Bioware robbed me of $70 by telling me ME2 was the sequel to ME and was an RPG. I'll guarantee you I won't buy another Bioware game until after I've read reviews, user reviews, and message boards.  [/quote]

At first people refuse to accept that the new game will be different from the old game. Only after they have a lot of information or have played the game do they accept that the new game is different and judge it on it's own merits.

[quote]

You make the assumption that game X will be good because game Y was good, and that everyone will just agree that X is good after it's released. That's like saying Matrix Revolutions must've been an incredible movie because Matrix was, except it turned out that it was widely disliked. [/quote]

If games A, B, C, D, E and F were good than you can expect the same of game G. Again, what I believe is that fans at first are negative about G, because it is different from the other games. You were never here when they first announced BG2 for example, were you? People always seem to be afraid that BW will change the things they liked about an older game. The problem is there assumptions are always based on to little information.

Modifié par Apophis2412, 11 juillet 2010 - 10:37 .

[Apophis2412]

Crrash wrote...

biomag wrote...

...except you can't feel the puppet with emmotion...

uuuuh. yes i can. i did in dragon age. 

biomag wrote...
ME 1 and even more 2 gave you those tools as the dialogs were more dynamic than any previous game or DA:O.

no they weren't. You were Shepard. You were stuck to the military persona and just could decide between being nice, nasty, indifferent or bipolar Shepard.
I know to you it's the other way around, because you experience the games differently. But understand that for me this is worse and removes what i liked the most about Dragon Age origins

biomag wrote...
Just because you can't choose among 10 meaningless lines to speak it doesn't mean you can't play your character to a great detail.

the thing is, they aren't meaningless, they define the nuances of my character, even if it doesn't change the game too much.

biomag wrote...
Only when people are that dumb that they reduce their whole gaming experience to a 100% paragon or renegade then your reactions are limited.

except that since you don't know what exactly Shep is going to say, it's hard to know when to choose a negative dialog without turning Shep completely inconsistent.

biomag wrote...
Another point that people should remember before whining (sorry, most here surpassed complaining already by a wide margin) is what Gaider said: Shepards reaction were stoic as it fitted his soldier background, they won't do the same with Hawke. They will give him wider options to choose from the wheel. I doubt they will reduce it to paragon/renegade.

yes that is good. But the wheel still limits things by not writing out what exactly Hawke will say. As does the voice and everything else that has been announced.

What it basically comes down to is that DAO, KOTOR and BG2 offered you more choices and it allowed your own imagination to fill in the blanks like the PC´s tone of voice and his-her emotions. This really helps immersion. In ME and ME2 very little is left to the player´s imagination, because BW has already decided for you what kind of person the PC is.

[Apophis2412]

asaiasai wrote...

No game is perfect and no game is going to cater to every one, that is simple fact. The problem is in a nut shell that game design is an art form, and all artists go through a period where thier work is different and in some cases it is better and being honest sometimes it just plain sucks. When you have a title like DAO which is probably one of the best games of its type.... EVER... and you change or try something new people are going to react anywhere from woohoo to WTF!.

But unless i am mistaken and the rules of consumerism have changed as the customer i am always right, if not i will go to a bussiness that is more in line with my philosophy to spend my money. Everyone has opinions while some people might choose the negative side of things by claiming that people who complain on the forums are whiners i myself preffer to look at it as passionate fans voicing thier legitimate concerns about the direction the artist is going. Some people will buy or watch anything and be happy some folks are a bit more discerning in thier tastes, i myself am the later as opposed to the former, as such i will not accept any ol thing just because, unless the comapny or artist has delivered in the past. I might not like the direction the artist is going and i might need some further explination as to why this direction was chosen, but contrary to your post there is nothing wrong with that.

The people on these forums myself included who take the time from thier schedules to post comments, complaints, or rave about a title should not be dismissed, not if you want to sell them anything in the future. The artist is entitled to dismiss any or all feed back as is thier right as the content creator, but as a consumer i also have the right to take my money else where. I myself have already posted that i am willing to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt concerning DA2 as so far i have not been let down by the DA series, and i hope that day never arrives, but no artist or company is always going to hit a homerun everytime the step up to the plate.

People are strange in that for the most part change upsets them but considering what happened to Mass Effect with the release of Mass Effect 2 i would have to say that some of the drama is well deserved. So as every other poster on these forums OP you have the right to dismiss the "drama" or feed into it, but what you do speaks more about your character than thiers.

Asai

Like I said there is nothing wrong with complaining.  My only problem is that people base their opinion on to little information. Secondly what I find suprising that at first these boards were filled with people who complained how ME2 was a very bad game. Yet now, several  months after the game was released, these boards are filled with people who like the game, the Character threads being a prime example.

[Ecael]

CalJones wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

I've gotta point out a few things...

1. You may want to investigate the gaming media a bit. Some sites have admitted they take orders on how to write a preview from unspecified companies, some have been caught modifying reviews at an advertisers request. Many times if you track user reviews, you'll find that low scores mysteriously disappear while high ones persist. Take a look at your favorite site, and check user reviews, note the discrepency in point spread among the ratings that are present. My genuine opinion of Mass Effect 2 mysteriously disappeared from one site...

Sadly this does happen. I was fortunate to work on magazines that had a lot of integrity, but I heard "pull this review or we pull our advertising" more than a few times. Some editors would also offer covers in return for exclusive reviews - and due to the month lead time on print mags, that often mean them reviewing buggy beta (or even alpha) code. Again, high scores were often promised. One particular magazine editor was notorious for giving favourable coverage in return for cocaine.
I guess it's not so different now with web-based coverage, other than the fact the lead times don't really exist any more. As the websites are accessible for free, they are even more dependant upon advertising than the magazines were, so the advertisers have more influence. In the current economic climate, it's even tougher.

The effect is very much exaggerated by the people on the forums - to the point where a good score means "the game actually sucks, but they were just threatened by the publisher to give it a good review".

Conjecture #1

Because Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft are gaming giants due to the sales of their consoles, we can then assume that every game ever published on their console is biased and paid-off then to drive sales, right?

And because Windows is made by Microsoft, we can assume every game published and reviewed before the release of the original X-Box console is paid-off to drive PC sales, too.

Therefore, any game that has been developed for the console or for Windows before Microsoft had their own console is likely to have biased reviews paid off by the console giants, and any game that was published by a major game company will also have biased reviews.

Thus, Blizzard, BioWare, Valve, Bethesda, 2K Games, Rockstar North, Relic, Infinity Ward, Bungie, Square Enix, Ubisoft, Obsidian, Namco Bandai, Capcom, Naughty Dog, Gearbox, etc. are all part of a giant coalition to pay off reviewers to give higher scores to their games.

Conclusion: Every video game ever published has A+ scores from most reviewers.

...But wait! There's more!

Conjecture #2

Every video game ever published does not, in fact, have A+ scores from most reviewers. What is going on here?

The assumption answer is simple: All major video game developers are paying reviewers to give lower scores to their competitors.

Thus, Blizzard, BioWare, Valve, Bethesda, 2K Games, Rockstar North, Relic, Infinity Ward, Bungie, Square Enix, Ubisoft, Obsidian, Namco Bandai, Capcom, Naughty Dog, Gearbox, etc. are all part of a giant coalition to pay off reviewers to give lower scores to other games.

Conclusion: Every video game ever published has a 75% critic average.
...But wait! There's more!

Conjecture #3

Every video game ever published does not, in fact, have a 75% critic average. Some are higher, some are lower.

The assumption answer is simple: I do not like this game and it appeals to the mainstream media and entertainment consumers, therefore the reviews have been paid off and the game actually sucks.

However, there are many people who don't like a specific game, no matter how good it is.

Thus, every Blizzard, BioWare, Valve, Bethesda, 2K Games, Rockstar North, Relic, Infinity Ward, Bungie, Square Enix, Ubisoft, Obsidian, Namco Bandai, Capcom, Naughty Dog, Gearbox game sucks.

Or...

Alternative Conjecture

Reviewers love video gaming for a living and took up the job because they can, and the majority of them have higher standards of integrity than most people on gaming forums.

[Andat]

Personally, I don't think it will be the worst thing in history. In fact, I'm sure that it'll do whatever it does quite well, but it means DA will no longer fill that RPG gap in my gaming repertoire, which means that I no longer have as much reason to buy it.



I will probaly buy it anyway, because it *might* blow me away. If I buy it and I'm disappointed (which is what I think will happen), I probably wouldn't buy DA3 (why waste the money twice, eh?)