121 réponses à ce sujet

[angelgaidin]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...
You can switch "roles" at the drop of a hat too. 

And then you're playing a person suffering from bipolar.

It's all in your mind, not in the game.  You can do the same thing in Mass Effect

Incorrect, I cannot create a sarcastic or spoiled version of Commander Shepard. Commander Shepard is limited to being a trusting paragon, the unknown middle option guy or a racist renegade.

Actually, he's entirely correct.  Let's say your Shepard is an amicable person, but because of a slaver raid on his colony when he was a child (something you can choose to have happened to him) he just flat hates batarians.  Perhaps that led him to be ruthless on Torfan, and choose the worst possible outcome for any batarian he meets.  Or perhaps you want his father to have been killed in the First Contact War, so now Shepard will be a dick to turians.  Or maybe your Shepard is a ruthless renegade, but he's mystified by the asari, and treats them with the utmost respect.  You're the only one limiting your imagination right now, not the game.  Add to that the comments being made by David Gaider that any conversation that was in DA:O could easily be done to possibly greater effect in DA2, and your stance weakens further.

[Bryy_Miller]

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Oblivion isn't as wide open as people think.

???

What the hell you smokin' bro?

Comparing world sizes in video games is stupid.

To you maybe. To others, a large map to explore gives a sense of freedom. That aside, there are so many ways Oblivion is based on open-ended gameplay and Dragon Age is most certainly not. I shouldn't need to illustrate them.

No, you don't need to. But that is hardly the point I was making. The player is not free to go anywhere they want in a video game world. Soon enough, they hit an invisible wall.

[Addai]

angelgaidin wrote...

 Add to that the comments being made by David Gaider that any conversation that was in DA:O could easily be done to possibly greater effect in DA2, and your stance weakens further.

He's speaking from the writer's side, not the player experience.

[Kaorunandrak]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Leafs43 wrote... People seem to think Bioware has the time and money to redo the dialog 6 individual times.

The Old Republic will have more dialogue than all there games combined,
including Baldurs Gate, seems they do.

Oh yes lets forget the fact they have LUCASARTS working with them on that project and the entire BIOWARE AUSTIN development team working entirely on this one game thats been in development for how many years now?

[angelgaidin]

Addai67 wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

 Add to that the comments being made by David Gaider that any conversation that was in DA:O could easily be done to possibly greater effect in DA2, and your stance weakens further.

He's speaking from the writer's side, not the player experience.

How is that different?  The player experience in DA:O was directly dependent on what the writer's wrote in for the PC's lines.  Gaider has also explicitly stated that voice acting tone is done in line with the express meaning of individual lines, not any preconceived notion of what Hawke *should* be.  In fact, when asked about comparisons between Shepard and Hawke, Gaider has specifically said that Shepard was a specific marine for a specific job, whereas Hawke is a hero who has yet to be defined, and that definition is where the character comes in.  Beyond being a human and a refugee, there is no indication that anything about Hawke is predefined.

[Kaorunandrak]

angelgaidin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

 Add to that the comments being made by David Gaider that any conversation that was in DA:O could easily be done to possibly greater effect in DA2, and your stance weakens further.

He's speaking from the writer's side, not the player experience.

How is that different?  The player experience in DA:O was directly dependent on what the writer's wrote in for the PC's lines.  Gaider has also explicitly stated that voice acting tone is done in line with the express meaning of individual lines, not any preconceived notion of what Hawke *should* be.  In fact, when asked about comparisons between Shepard and Hawke, Gaider has specifically said that Shepard was a specific marine for a specific job, whereas Hawke is a hero who has yet to be defined, and that definition is where the character comes in.  Beyond being a human and a refugee, there is no indication that anything about Hawke is predefined.

See the problem here bro is that you keep using facts and logic based off of dev responses and credible sources. This is the OMFG KILL BIOWARE THEY RUIN MY GAMES social network you need to make wild assumptions based of your own pathetic and terrified nerd rage which is then inturn loosely based off the cookie crumb of features on a web site.

Honestly bro i see and agree with where your coming from but right now your basicly trying to talk a pack of rabid starving mutant great white sharks out of attacking a fat bleeding baby sea lion.

[OriginsIsBest]

Yes yes .... But it feels wide open.

[Jimmy Fury]

angelgaidin wrote...
In fact, when asked about comparisons between Shepard and Hawke, Gaider has specifically said that Shepard was a specific marine for a specific job, whereas Hawke is a hero who has yet to be defined, and that definition is where the character comes in.

Do you remember what thread that was, or have a link to it by any chance? 
Not that I don't believe he said that or anything. It's actually a huge relief and I'd like to link to it in another thread.

[hexaligned]

angelgaidin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

 Add to that the comments being made by David Gaider that any conversation that was in DA:O could easily be done to possibly greater effect in DA2, and your stance weakens further.

He's speaking from the writer's side, not the player experience.

How is that different?  The player experience in DA:O was directly dependent on what the writer's wrote in for the PC's lines.  Gaider has also explicitly stated that voice acting tone is done in line with the express meaning of individual lines, not any preconceived notion of what Hawke *should* be.  In fact, when asked about comparisons between Shepard and Hawke, Gaider has specifically said that Shepard was a specific marine for a specific job, whereas Hawke is a hero who has yet to be defined, and that definition is where the character comes in.  Beyond being a human and a refugee, there is no indication that anything about Hawke is predefined.

I have nothing but respect for Mr Gaiders work, and I appreciate him communicating with the fans.  You have to keep in mind he's trying to sell you something though, and he also has his pride as an artist influencing his perspective.   He might not be the most unbiased voice in the world, not that you shouldn't listen to him over random forum nobody #523432, I just personally don't trust the opinion he puts forth is going to be the same as mine when I get my hands on the game.

Modifié par relhart, 11 juillet 2010 - 09:59 .

[Valthaur]

Good post, I was thinking about that actually - how your origin can affect later events in the game, but doesn't really seem to affect your character's personality/dialogue - for example, casteless dwarf and noble dwarf have 99.9% same dialogue once you're out of the origin. See my extended post on that ('adaptive character development'):



http://social.biowar...1/index/3097398

[angelgaidin]

@Jimmy Fury: http://social.biowar...ex/3096812&lf=8
http://social.biowar...ex/3096812&lf=8

My apologies, Mary Kirby is the one who clarified about the Shepard/Hawke comparison, and that's in the first link.  Gaider is especially illuminating (and comforting, I might add) in the second link, concerning the new conversation system.

Do what I do, whenever you see that a dev has commented in a thread, click on the BioWare button and it only shows you their responses. They're usually good about quoting who they're responding to so that you have context.

Modifié par angelgaidin, 11 juillet 2010 - 10:01 .

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...

He's speaking from the writer's side, not the player experience.

You think Gaider hasn't played with a prototype by now? He's got more player experience than any non-Bio person can possibly have.

Of course, for any particular fan there's a chance that what Bio's staff thinks is good will not be the same as what he personally thinks is good.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 juillet 2010 - 09:58 .

[Maverick827]

relhart wrote...

I have nothing but respect for Mr Gaiders work, and I appreciate him communicating with the fans.  You have to keep in mind he's trying to sell you something though, and he also has his pride as an artist influencing his perspective.   He might not be the most unbiased voice in the world, not that you shouldn't listen to him over random forum nobody #523432, I just personally don't trust the opinion he puts forth is going to be the same as mine when I get my hands on the game.

Actually, you have to keep in mind that they're trying to sell you a franchise, which is an entirely different pitch than trying to sell a one-shot pony.  It makes absolutely no sense that they would alter the formula to the degree with which the naysayers believe.

[hexaligned]

Maverick827 wrote...

relhart wrote...

I have nothing but respect for Mr Gaiders work, and I appreciate him communicating with the fans.  You have to keep in mind he's trying to sell you something though, and he also has his pride as an artist influencing his perspective.   He might not be the most unbiased voice in the world, not that you shouldn't listen to him over random forum nobody #523432, I just personally don't trust the opinion he puts forth is going to be the same as mine when I get my hands on the game.

Actually, you have to keep in mind that they're trying to sell you a franchise, which is an entirely different pitch than trying to sell a one-shot pony.  It makes absolutely no sense that they would alter the formula to the degree with which the naysayers believe.

What?  That's completely nonsensical.  They aren't selling a franchise at all, unless you think just because i payed for DAO I'm obligated to give them money for every other game that carries a similar title.  I also made no comment whatsoever about how much they are or aren't changing the game, so maybe you can clarify what you are referencing with that.  I look at Devs as any other salesman, I take the facts they offer and let their opinion on those facts fall away, that seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do to me.

[Jimmy Fury]

Well, they are selling a franchise actually. That's the point of putting out expansions, books, comics,and possibly an animated movie. To build a franchise.

It really has nothing to do with whether or not you should trust anyone's opinion but I believe Maverick's point was more about the people who are on the hill tops screaming that the sky is falling and calling Gaider a liar when he tells them it isn't.

You build a franchise through loyalty. Sure, as a company they want to reach a lot of people, but as a franchise they want to build a solid base.

[Addai]

angelgaidin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

angelgaidin wrote...

 Add to that the comments being made by David Gaider that any conversation that was in DA:O could easily be done to possibly greater effect in DA2, and your stance weakens further.

He's speaking from the writer's side, not the player experience.

How is that different?  The player experience in DA:O was directly dependent on what the writer's wrote in for the PC's lines.  Gaider has also explicitly stated that voice acting tone is done in line with the express meaning of individual lines, not any preconceived notion of what Hawke *should* be.  In fact, when asked about comparisons between Shepard and Hawke, Gaider has specifically said that Shepard was a specific marine for a specific job, whereas Hawke is a hero who has yet to be defined, and that definition is where the character comes in.  Beyond being a human and a refugee, there is no indication that anything about Hawke is predefined.

It may feel the same to him to write lines for this interface or that interface.  Putting myself in a writer's shoes, I would even prefer to have the greater control that a voiced PC would give me.  I'll be able to have input in how a voice actor says the lines and thus I can shape the character how I want it to be.

The problem is that for my PC, I as a player want to shape my character.  I'll accept the writers' direction in the larger scheme of plot because I prefer a generally plotted game versus an open-end RPG, but in the scheme of the game I want as much control as possible over crafting the PC to suit my tastes.  The addition of a voice actor is an intrusion into that process that is unnecessary, and having the voice actor break in and riff on my choices destroys immersion.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 juillet 2010 - 11:51 .

[Addai]

AlanC9 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

He's speaking from the writer's side, not the player experience.

You think Gaider hasn't played with a prototype by now? He's got more player experience than any non-Bio person can possibly have.

Of course, for any particular fan there's a chance that what Bio's staff thinks is good will not be the same as what he personally thinks is good.

Honestly, when I read the writers' comments there are times when I do wonder if they play their own games.  I felt that when I read the writers' apologetic for the new dialogue system in Awakening.  Mr. Gaider kept insisting that Origins' dialogue system was broken, and I could just think "Huh?  You mean the dialogue system that made me fall in love with the game?"  And as it turns out, his perception of how much better Awakening's system was going to be was the exact opposite of my experience as a player of those two games.  I'm not the only one who thinks so, judging by other forum commenters.

[Jimmy Fury]

Addai67 wrote...
and having the voice actor break in and riff on my choices destroys immersion.

Why assume that this is what will happen? What proof is there that the VA will "riff on [your] choices". Is there a single logical explanation for why this keeps being stated as a cold hard inarguable fact? Has anyone on the boards actually experienced the DA2 voiced dialogue system yet? Is there a demo? A video? anything at all that shows this happening?

No. There isn't. The only defense anyone ever has for that claim is Mass Effect. That's it. But it forgets one really important thing.
DA2 is not ME any more than ME was KOTOR or Jade Empire. The games are all different. They may share themes, styles, developers, voice actors, etc but they are all different games with different ways of doing things.

For all we know Neil Patrick Harris and Summer Glau could be voicing Hawke. 
(IT WOULD BE AWESOME.)
They've snagged top rank talent before.. especially after they got ahold of all that evil EA money....

[Addai]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
and having the voice actor break in and riff on my choices destroys immersion.

Why assume that this is what will happen? What proof is there that the VA will "riff on [your] choices". Is there a single logical explanation for why this keeps being stated as a cold hard inarguable fact? Has anyone on the boards actually experienced the DA2 voiced dialogue system yet? Is there a demo? A video? anything at all that shows this happening?

You obviously haven't read the writers' comments about how the dialogue wheel is going to work, nor why it's being adopted (i.e. that according to Bioware, the dialogue system needs to ape Mass Effect's in order to be more "cinematic").  I suggest reading around the forums more.

P.S. It doesn't matter how "awesome" the voice talent is.  It wouldn't change my opinion on the subject of a voiced PC.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 juillet 2010 - 01:03 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Addai67 wrote...
You obviously haven't read the writers' comments about how the dialogue wheel is going to work, nor why it's being adopted (i.e. that according to Bioware, the dialogue system needs to ape Mass Effect's in order to be more "cinematic").  I suggest reading around the forums more.

P.S. It doesn't matter how "awesome" the voice talent is.  It wouldn't change my opinion on the subject of a voiced PC.

Actually I have I just don't read more than what they actually say. There will be a wheel system with dialogue options AND an icon that denotes the tone of the response. That's not the ME wheel. That's something else entirely.
At not point have they said the options will be one or two word options.
At no point have they said the VA will go off on an unrelated Tangent.
At no point have they claimed the DA2 wheel will have the exact same number of options as the ME wheel.

Yet every other person on the boards has sworn up and down that all of these are irrefutable facts and when someone questions them they say "well obviously you haven't been reading what the devs have said"

Seriously, if anyone can show me even ONE post from a DEV that says "DA2 will have the exact same dialogue wheel down to the number of options as ME" I will eat my hat and every hat in here.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 12 juillet 2010 - 01:24 .

[tmp7704]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

But you never had the choice to go into the room. How you said it doesn't actually change the course of events.
Now compare that to ME2
Tali: Shepard, I have some ideas for the engines on the ship.
Wheel 1: Alright
Wheel 2: let's talk about something else.
Wheel 3: I have to go.

While the choices aren't very personal, the outcome of the choice is actually a major change in how the events of the game play out. If you agree someone lives, if you ignore her someone dies.

The "major change" is really one of characters may die and then won't be available in the final part of the game. Since DA also has dialogues which, depending on options chosen, can lead to characters dying and not being available in the latter parts of the game... well, this comparison shows both games have some elements in common.

[Wishpig]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I created four Human nobles.

One of them used only sarcastic dialogue, why? Because in my mind, I created him to be a sarcastic person.
One of them was a spoiled brat, she'd always scold 'commoners' and was rather respectful to the other nobles at the end.
One of them was a paladin in the true sense, honorable and good. He'd always do the right thing and always treat people with respect even they didn't deserve it in the end.
One of them was just a plain ol'bastard because he could.

Four different characters created from one Origin story, after the origin story their personalities didn't just flop - they continued to be who they were.

Wow... four human nobles? Really... don't like to try new things huh?

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
For all we know Neil Patrick Harris and Summer Glau could be voicing Hawke. 
(IT WOULD BE AWESOME.)
They've snagged top rank talent before.. especially after they got ahold of all that evil EA money....

That would be legendary!

Hawke: "I'd brood that mother... What up! Darkspawn five!"

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Honestly, when I read the writers' comments there are times when I do wonder if they play their own games.  I felt that when I read the writers' apologetic for the new dialogue system in Awakening.  Mr. Gaider kept insisting that Origins' dialogue system was broken, and I could just think "Huh?  You mean the dialogue system that made me fall in love with the game?"  And as it turns out, his perception of how much better Awakening's system was going to be was the exact opposite of my experience as a player of those two games.  I'm not the only one who thinks so, judging by other forum commenters.

You and I certainly don't see eye-to-eye on many things, and while I agree with you that the "find random tree" dialogue system in Awakenings was blaphemy and addressing a non-existing issue (in my opinion), can't you appreciate that people have different opinions that you?

Shocking as it may be, it is within the realm of posibility that someone could play the exact same thing you did, not be incompetent or incapable, or otherwise mentally impoverished, and yet nevertheless reach a different conclusion.

It may feel the same to him to write lines for this interface or
that interface.  Putting myself in a writer's shoes, I would even prefer
to have the greater control that a voiced PC would give me.  I'll be
able to have input in how a voice actor says the lines and thus I can
shape the character how I want it to be.

I wanted to ask you this in the other thread but did not have a chance: why do you think a non-voiced protagonist avoids this?

Put another way, the writer has to make presumptions about how each character in the game interprets each line of dialogue, because the character has to react to something, and if that something is a series of sentences, it very well had to come with some tone and pronunciation, not to mention some intent.

The writer tries, as best as a writer can, to convey that intention in how the line is written. But why do you think the mere fact you never see a line spoken out loud entails that it could have been said in any number of ways?

[Riona45]

ejoslin wrote...


But even talking about the romances, they can play out in different ways.  But that is only part of the game.  It's the relationships, friendships, enemies, lovers, when trying to save the world -- it gives a different perspective.  Ah well, I don't think you get it nor want to try.  Which is maybe why you can't understand why it's so frustrating for many people who love DA:O.

No reason to think all those things won't be in DA2.  And Dave Gaider has already said, straight out, that Hawke is a much less defined character than Shepard.