555 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

theelementslayer wrote...
And yet I can also state that ME2 is a great second act of a story that leads up to the final confrontation.

I would begin to ask you what books you've read, what screenplays you find "great" and if you understanding anything about effective writing.

And I disagre with the story being dumbed down and over simplified. Just because the graphics were amazing and the overall view was extremely cinematic doesnt mean its meant to be a summer blockbuster. I mean hell, who doesnt love huge explosions. Though I agree that Gantt chart must be one mean son of a, and must take up alot of wall space.

The story has to be dumbed down.  It's a space opera.  It must be simple to 1) observe, 2) get exposition on, or we're all lost.  The fact we had an existing universe was helpful.  The fact it didn't add anything of value aside from gang members in colorful armor getting shot at and the destruction of an enigmatic, mute bug species, is tragic.  Oh and there are two Drell.

Tell me why ME2 is such a great sequel.

Sure you can get through the game with not doing most of them but the main recruitments no you have to do them and why would they do that if they were just going to voice them over once and bam gone. Just doesnt seem like a smart idea to spend all that money to just have it fizzle out. And this is bioware, they arent a dumb developer.

"Sure you can get through the game with not doing most of them...."

Full stop.  Plot is fulfilled.

Yes, but I think it is very much implied, hell they are around shepard, and she must talk about the reapers somewhat plus the 2 that are with you when you talk to Udina, or Anderson, or the Council heard you talk about the reapers. Just because it isnt outright said doesnt mean that it didnt happen

Nonsense.

Ah yes but Grunt has said that shepard is his battlemaster, sure he has no troops to fight but she is Grunts kin in grunts eyes. And youve heard my argument for samara, shes is staying Im pretty sure

Samara is leaving.  Grunt is meaningless.  They are all optional.

Regardless of when it was made, I thought it was made just after the Kasumi pack and why would they introduce new characters, they have alot of stuff to wrap up in the 3rd one, This is the final part of a trilogy. The second part is about getting ready for the final confrontation, and they did. Sheps got a crew now to fight the reapers

What do you mean regardless?  It was this June!  The man's opinion is clear.  His intention is to put in new characters so we can have fun meeting them.

Yes the romance argument is a large, large part that I would put into it. As for 4 new charcters returning sure I could see them get rid of 4 of the 12 characters, just not all 12. The only thing is I cant see Bioware, after gaining these loyal fans, stiff arm them and just smash it in out face because it would be "easier". These guys seem to want to push the bar for themselves, not make things easier. They seem to actually care about fanbase unlike *cough* IW *cough*

Ever play ME2?  Yeah, they just did that exactly to their fans.

They then made a 4 part comic book to rub it in their faces.

I cant see them doing it from scracth. Sure a few changes but as a modeller why would they waste their time on changing a characters looks because I dont think they will change that much in a year or howevrer much time difference there is.

They're making a brand new game.  They would do every asset from scratch.  This is not going to be ME2.5.  This is going to be ME3.  Every asset is going to be new.

I think the only reason the characters look different is the better graphics engine, their facial features really didnt change, bar Liara, she seemed to mature a bit. And why would it matter if the character model is the same. Its the same person, its not like they will change much. Furthermore, as I said before the animations are specific to the game, of course those would change. Why would the people change looks? Sure theyll rexture them, the clothes and stuff but the model, especially the face where most of the time is put into, would stay the same.

It matters because it's an asset that costs time and money to make, which must be taken into account before a schedule is made, salaries are handed out, and the producer understands what he's getting into, so shareholders don't bail.

[theelementslayer]

Double Post

Modifié par theelementslayer, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:31 .

[theelementslayer]

I would begin to ask you what books you've read, what screenplays you find "great" and if you understanding anything about effective writing.

Alright, since you asked

Books (These are authors I enjoy)
-John Grisham
-Lee Child
-Robert Ludlum/Eric Von (whoever took over the Bourne series)
-Clive Cussler

Movies/screenplays
-Bourne series
-Oceans series
-LOTR series
-Star Wars 4,5,6

As for effective writing well Im usually modest but since you asked. I was awarded the Grd 12 writing award (2009) for our school (out of 500 graduating students there were 3 of these handed out)

Plotted out a game for a final project in universiry, 1st year (2010 Winter), scripted and animaticed the first cutscene which awarded me an A+

And for good measure won bronze at an animation storytelling competition in provincials in grade 10. Ya Im pretty sure I know about effective writing.

The story has to be dumbed down.  It's a space opera.  It must be simple to 1) observe, 2) get exposition on, or we're all lost.  The fact we had an existing universe was helpful.  The fact it didn't add anything of value aside from gang members in colorful armor getting shot at and the destruction of an enigmatic, mute bug species, is tragic.  Oh and there are two Drell.

Tell me why ME2 is such a great sequel.

Ive stated many times before. I wont this time but if you ask again yes I will restate so you dont have to look back at the other posts

"Sure you can get through the game with not doing most of them...."

Full stop.  Plot is fulfilled.

This is just a personal opinion, we dont know what the devs will do.

Nonsense.

Why nonsense? Nothing can happen outside of the games scope?

Samara is leaving.  Grunt is meaningless.  They are all optional.

Evidence to rebuke my ideas of why they are staying? Just stating that they will leave wont really help your argument.

What do you mean regardless?  It was this June!  The man's opinion is clear.  His intention is to put in new
characters so we can have fun meeting them.

Again we dont know what the devs will do

Ever play ME2?  Yeah, they just did that exactly to their fans.

Ummm how did they do that? Everyone in ME1 was in ME2 one way or another. Sure you might not of liked how but they put everyone in as well as 2 being squadmates.

They're making a brand new game.  They would do every asset from scratch.  This is not going to be ME2.5.  This is going to be ME3.  Every asset is going to be new.

I disagree. The management hasnt changed, the top line up of creative directors hasnt changed. Why waste time and money on frivolous restarting of character sketches. Would look kinda funny having Tali look different, or Mirandas hair blonde or something. Nah I think they will cut/paste the models.

It matters because it's an asset that costs time and money to make, which must be taken into account before a schedule is made, salaries are handed out, and the producer understands what he's getting into, so shareholders don't bail
.

Projects go over budget all the time. No plan really changes anything, sure its a benchmark but things change. And how did this even tie into my argument?

Modifié par theelementslayer, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:32 .

[Christmas Ape]

[quote]iakus wrote...
"Awkward" is having to work with a former enemy in an unholy alliance.  Having said former enemy be your new boss while you spend a whole game running "fetch" quests for him is someting entirley different,.  I expected one and got another.[/quote]If you thought "working for" wasn't going to mean "fetch quest", you bought into the wrong genre of video game, even if that's a slight misuse of the term.

[quote]Yes, TIm "presents himself" as the only one who will help you.  but aside from the visit to the Citadel (wich, as I pointed out before, throws continuity out the window)[/quote]I don't really see that.
[quote]Does Shepard get to ask the Alliance for aid?[/quote]"Undercover? No, not really, Captain. I'm more...consulting. For a banned terrorist group. Outside Alliance and Citadel jurisdiction. Promise I'm still on your side. Could you maybe, you know, risk every scrap of political capital we've gained, to say nothing of censure and expulsion from the Citadel, by providing material support to said banned terrorist group?"
[quote]The various mercenary groups  (when he's not shooting at them?)[/quote]"Good evening, gentlemen. I'm Commander Shepard; you may remember me from two years ago, when I killed a couple hundred of your people with a fvcking tank. I'm a little strapped for cash at the moment; who wants to undertake a suicide mission on spec? Oh, and it will antagonize the Collectors, whom you purchase technology from."
[quote]The STG?[/quote](See "ask the Alliance", but without the political capital or species solidarity)
[quote]Aria?[/quote]Aria's world runs on naked self-interest and extends as far as the docking bay. She does help you as much as makes sense for the character, giving you intel on everyone you tell her you're looking for and offering carte blanche to shoot anyone not working directly for her. Omega doesn't care about you.
[quote]Heck Liara could probably make some good recommendations.[/quote]She's a woman obsessed, devoting her resources to spanking the Shadow Broker on your behalf.
[quote]Even with the thanix cannon, the Normandy gets trashed and crashes on the base.  Joker doesn't get enough of it working to fly again until you're about to do your biotic bubble stroll.  If there was a second ship, some gun batteries, or  even an Occulus or two stationed at the base instead of the relay, the Normandy would have been toast.[/quote]And if frogs had wings they wouldn't bruise their ass when they jump.
[quote]All of which they don't know until after EDI gets the info from the Collector ship.  At this point, TIM has already given you all the dossiers.  Not to mention that the Collectors/Reapers have had tens of thousands of year to putter around with the sensors.[/quote]The last set of dossiers are provided after the Cruiser. After the cruiser, you know the Collector origin point is deep in the gravitic hell of the galactic core. The likely absence of functional fighter craft - which are most effective against cruisers and bigger ships - was an acceptable risk to take.
And it's not Star Trek, there are limits to what reversing the polarity can do on a Mass Effect universe ship. Sensors in the galactic core is like trying to get cell phone reception inside a running microwave.
[quote]I'm fairly certain it was more than 15 minutes.[/quote]Twenty, maybe? Doesn't take that long to play through and the time lapses are minimal.
[quote]  And we can only speculate that there were oother dossiers that turned
out to be unnecessary.  We simply don't know.  The ammount of stuff we
are left to speculate and guess on to fill in the gaps is rapidly
outpacing what the story is actually telling us.[/quote]Intelligence work is like that. tIM is kind of a **** of a boss.
[quote]Things do go right.  But given how little intellligence there seemed to be (to Shepard and the player) it's truly astounding just how right things went.[/quote]Like how Tali's meet with Saren's men is just breaking down when you arrive, the geth at Therum never think to use the mining laser, Benezia hasn't left Noveria yet even though she's done what she came to do, Zhu's Hope is still standing when you arrive, Saren is just now on his way to the Conduit and the Vigil detour doesn't put him too far ahead, one soldier can hold off an entire geth counter-attack until the nuke explodes, the Conduit remains open for just enough time for you to pursue Saren...
Coincidence and contrivance is the lifeblood of RPG narrative.
[quote]I'm just disappointed that EDI gets relegated to infodumps and deus ex macina escapes when so much more could have been done with her.  AIs are not widely trusted in the Mass Effect universe, and I expected more to be made of it, particularly with #6 as the VA.[/quote]Absolutely fair to be disappointed with her minor role, but I feel what she does is on par with expectations and she's not been formatted yet. There's still hope.
[quote]I admit ME 3 might close the circle and have everything make sense.  However, ME 1 had a definitive beginning, middle, and end, why couldn't ME 2?  Why settle for half a game?[/quote]Many aren't left with the impression of "half a game" at all.
- Someone - the Collectors - are kidnapping human colonial populations.
- While recruiting a selection of powerful specialists to back up Shepard, it becomes clear the Collectors are also interested in Shepard personally - or more precisely, the Reapers are interested and are using the no-longer-sapient Collectors as tools to that end.
- Shepard and team stage a daring suicide raid on the Collector base and, with a combination of luck, talent, surprise, and enthusiasm, lay waste to it.
[quote]Again, this is an assumption because we don't see any tech being gathered or delivered to the Normandy.  Leaving some things up to the imagination to the player is fine.  But things are getting a bit ridiculous here.[/quote]What assumption? We know we have Veetor's data. We know we haven't met a Collector in person yet. Mordin has a Seeker in his lab when you ask about the counter-measure.
Ergo, he built it.
[quote]Again, uncomfortable is commiting, or allowing distasteful things to happen for a greater good.  Commiting acts of betrayal on former friends. Working alongside former enemies.[/quote]So we're agreed. You spend the whole game funneling intel their way, building up their image, having old dear friends accuse you to your face of betraying the Alliance...
[quote]What we got was "kinder, gentler Cerberus" who won't actually tell you anything and just has you sit in a corner until called on.[/quote]What we got was the upper ranks of Cerberus drawing the blinds around Shepard, offering only what intel is vital to her mission or involves a project gone off the rails.
[quote]Honestly, did Shepard actually do anything that absolutely no one else could do?[/quote]Negotiate a cooperative effort with the quarian strike team that made recovering Veetor's data - the only evidence it's not slavers or pirates - possible, for one. Any other hump in a Cerberus uniform would have been gunned down on the spot. To the rest of, it's possible any other N7 officer could have recruited that team and led that mission, but such can be said of any RPG not relying on the hokey-ass "Chosen One" premise.
[quote]The only real coincidence I can think of is Shepard happening to survive the Prothean beacon's message.  That was the unique, "Shapard-y" thing that made him so special in ME 1.  Perhaps tere are more, but ME 1's story is entertaining enough tat I didn't feel the need to examine it so closely.[/quote]I'd recommend doing so. It's a series of convenient coincidences strung together into a 'narrative' that more closely resembles a sandbox.
[quote]Yes, they are not used to working in a group.  If they interacted more, that would be growth.  They'd be coming together as a team.  Cut scenes wouldn't be needed, just some dialogue would be fine.  Let them chat.  It's quite clear that great care was put into making these characters and their stories.  Let them mingle.  Shepard isn't (or shouldn't be) the entirety of their universe.[/quote]Well, frogs once again. The value of adding more cutscenes or background conversations to the game against the programming demands of having the crew all wander the ship I leave as an exercise for the reader.
[quote]True, but I did pick some of the more likely ones (Thane to Samara's mission[/quote]I'll give you that one, though I can also see Thane not calling attention to his calling in that circumstance.
[quote]Miranda to Jacob's[/quote]Miranda plays her cards very close to the vest at all times. She only tells Jacob she passed it on because he gets excited enough about it to call tIM on the Big Red Phone.
[quote]Samara to Zaeed's[/quote]I'll give you this one too, though she does swear to follow Shepard's lead and clearly takes her oaths seriously.
[quote]Tali to Mordin's[/quote]Just don't see it. She's an engineer, not a geneticist.
[quote]And this doesn't even include random banter that could happen anywhere, depending on your party combination.  No cutscenes or talkboxes needed.[/quote]If each squadmate had one conversation they start with each other squadmate, and they're about elevator conversation long, that's another ~700 lines of dialog to record. Logistics must be accounted for.
[quote]None.  He says that after you give your "I'm gonna find a way to stop the Reapers" speach and walked out of the room.  He's talking to Anderson and the Council.[/quote]Anderson, who believes in the Reapers? And I seem to remember Udina being outraged at the Council for dismissing your claims, staunchly advocating for you - until it's politically expedient to stab you in the back. If Udina told me the sky was blue I'd go to a window and check.
[quote]Bad story.  Wrong story.  Either way, I still feel burned (note I said I feel burned)[/quote]Or neither, though you're still welcome to feel that way.
[quote]And allow for the fact that TIM still holds most of the cards concerning the Collector and Reaper information.  Shepard is still pretty much in the dark, no better off than he was in ME 1, except at least then he had the backing of the Council and Alliance.[/quote]'Backing' which amounted to "we have some errands for you" and "feel free to wander the Presidium" and "three aliens a billion kilometers away second-guess your decisions from a comfy office". You don't even get access to Saren's files, but have to wait for the Council to tell you he has a massive facility on Virmire they've been investigating.
[quote]No offense to you or your friend. But putting ME 2 and Planescape: Torment together like that makes my brain hurt.[/quote]Yeah, to be fair, he liked P:T a lot more than I did, but part of that is just that AD&D 2nd grates on me.
[quote]The only thing I fault them on in this instance is setting out to make a trilogy, then not meshing them properly. Maybe it's their attempts to make each one stand on it's own, but I think they took that way too far.[/quote]And there is disagreement on this issue. "You halted the Reaper agenda - and they killed you for it" serves as a workable transition for me. You pass from 'the first human spectre, Hero of the Battle of the Citadel" literally into the Underworld, first via death and then through the seedier portions of the lawless Terminus Systems. Hero's Journey.  [quote]A trilogy implies you're making a single large story in three parts.[/quote]Shepard's story. Everyone else is set design.
[quote]Yet when you violently jerk the main protagonist around from one setting to another, one cast of characters to another[/quote]Most characters of any importance show up again, if apparently less than people wanted. Some new faces are added, but this often happens in second acts.
[quote]with no transition and little explanation[/quote]That's a matter of opinion and perception. The transition is "the Reapers killed you - but you're better now", the explanation being "your old team hasn't spent two years at your gravesite waiting for you to come back".
[quote]you're not creating Star Wars, you're making James Bond[/quote]Bond stories have a conscious lack of continuity, which is not the same as "I don't like their linking device".
[quote]As opposed to the people screaming about the abruptness in Shepard's death and ressurection (which is taken remarkably in stride by all concerned I might add)   We'll have to agree to disagree on it I guess.[/quote]Space is huge; I imagine there's a lot of "rumors of her death seem greatly exaggerated" outside the old team. As to Shepard taking it well, I tend to imagine her as something of a mission-focused individual. Philosophy is for after the Collectors are dealt with. But I'll agree that we may not be able to reach consensus on this point. I do approve of your suggested intro, I just think it would be a harder sell for those new to the franchise.
[quote]More assumptions.  Besids, despite what the Council said, if Cerberus membership was really a capital crime (meaning crime punishable by execution, not as minor thing, even for a Spectre), I highly doubt Captain Bailey would have been so friendly to me when I show up on the Citadel in a spacesip with the Cerberus logo clearly visible on the sides and two crew members with me wearing Cerberus uniforms and insignias.  Heck I doubt I'd have made it to the presidium.  At best, I'd likely be conference-calling Anderson/Udina from a holding cell.[/quote]Well, going by the theory that what happens in the narrative happens, there must be explanations. I find the "also the Cord-Hislop Aerospace logo" pretty plausible, given nobody but Jack seems to know it's the Cerberus logo on sight. It's all over Lazarus Station, and yet Shepard doesn't recognize it despite shutting down several of their operations.
And while Spectre gets you a lot of leeway, I imagine "Hero of the Battle of the Citadel whose personal orders saved the Council's life at great cost/established the new Council" gets you the rest of the "I didn't hear you say Cerberus" pass.
[quote]There's "real time" and "game time"  The developers should keep track of both.[/quote]Sadly, projects have a way of going over schedule in the video game industry. Maybe there just wasn't room on the ME1 disc, so they polished it up and put it as 2's intro?
[quote]"Extinction" means the death of an entire race, not just Shepard.  You saying that's how ME 3 will end?[/quote]I'm saying they took steps to make good on their word and remove from their path the only organic known to have gotten a Reaper destroyed in thirty seven million years. It's not as if we expected them to give up after Sovereign, right?

[adam_grif]

For anybody who cares, an analysis of the Collector vessel:

- It is capable of destroying an alliance frigate in two / three hits (Start of ME1)
- It can be destroyed by EITHER a Javelin torpedo system OR Frigate mass drivers (cut-scene is ambiguous, contradictory information abounds)
- It is capable of controlled landings on planets.
- It is capable of holding tens of thousands of individuals inside, at minimum.

Some of these things certainly are impressive, but the ability to kill a frigate isn't, and neither is the inability for a ship that is >1 KM in length (Dreadnought sized) to survive the firepower it received. Thanix guns, according to the Codex, have "the firepower of a cruiser". This is to say that a cruiser could have done everything the Normandy did, and that makes the Collector ship a combat lightweight for it's size class.

It must have a disproportionately large ME core in order to make controlled landings, but it's vulnerability to enemy fire means that it has very weak Kinetic Barriers, relative to its size. It's actually very strange that it was able to kill the Turian patrol during ME2, and even stranger that so many ships could be destroyed by it. If it did directly attack Earth, it would have been completely obliterated by Systems Alliance warships before it could do any real damage.

The writing was apparently good enough to please a lot of people on this
forum and on other websites. The critics liked it, so what do I know?
Personally I agree with smudboy on pretty much everything. The writing
is satisfactory, I would say, but it is by no means great. It's far less
than what I'd hoped for the sequel. The character stuff is great... but
I'd have preferred seeing the main plot advnace.

There isn't anything wrong with the writing, it's the story that is being told that sucks. The story is being told WELL, the character dialogue is good, the side-missions are great. All of these factors get lumped into one category called "STORY" for game critics. Critics are also comparing things to other games, whose presentation and story are generally terrible. Critics also know nothing about story, because they think that total crap like the Final Fantasy series has 'great stories'. Making a 'great story' in a videogame is like being the best at Mathematics in a room full of second graders, it's a meaningless honor.

Videogame stories are closer to porn plots than to great novels 9 times out of 10. Brainless action movies have better plots most of the time.

Modifié par adam_grif, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:05 .

[adam_grif]

Shandepared wrote...

The Collector vessel wasn't made for war. Do you think the Normandy SR2 could do to Sovereign what it did to the Collector vessel? The Collector ship also has a pretty big weakness, being open in the middle.

Of course it couldn't touch a reaper! My analysis concludes that the Collector ship is a pushover, not that the SR2 is strong.

I is designed for combat, it's just not a dedicated combat vessel. A significant amount of it's volume and mass is dedicated to being a transport, however despite this, it still has combat systems and is used in a directly offensive fashion against numerous parties in the game.

[adam_grif]

Anybody can detect Normandy even with it's stealth features engaged because it is only good for capturing IR signature. Active sensors like RADAR and LADAR will detect it just fine, and it's impossible for the Stealth systems to be active while you're in FTL travel. Note that they turned the Stealth systems on AFTER they dropped out of FTL, and that the Collector ship was already there (didn't jump out of FTL, it came from near the planet).



This is to say, that any normal ship would have been able to track them exactly like they did in the opening cutscene. No special technology required. Once you know it's there, you can even just track it optically with external telescopes and things like that.

[tvih]

Shandepared wrote...

The Collector vessel wasn't made for war. Do you think the Normandy SR2 could do to Sovereign what it did to the Collector vessel? The Collector ship also has a pretty big weakness, being open in the middle.

It might not be a warship in the traditional sense, but chances are it would defeat most Citadel Fleet ships one on one. Being open only comes into play once your kinetic barrier is down anyway, at which point most ships are more or less fracked.

Also, obviously a Reaper has MUCH stronger defenses. I don't think anyone is claiming that SR2, a frigate, could take down a Reaper alone, upgraded tech or no - I certainly don't. But make a big pack of them with the upgraded tech, and it's a different story. Not to mention Cruisers, heck, even Dreads, with the same tech. Even then a single ship most likely wouldn't be a match for a Reaper, but if all the Citadel races united to build a huge anti-Reaper fleet with this tech, it could be sufficient. After all, the main downfall of the Protheans was that they were not prepared, and they lost contact between colonies. And it still took over a century for the Reapers to wipe them out, if I remember correctly.

Of course, the lack of a unified front against the threat is the whole problem here. The knowledge of the threat is out there, unlike with Protheans who were more or less caught with their pants down, but people refuse to believe it, thinking closing their eyes will just make it go away. As far as story writing goes, you'd think Shepard could've provided intel (scans, readings, whatever data) from the encounter with the derelict Reaper to the Council and others to prove that Sovereign was hardly a Geth creation (having been abandoned for what, 37 million years, was it?), and hardly an isolated incident. But then what plot doesn't have oddities such as this.

[ME-ParaShep]

I think the plot from ME1 was deemed a pretty good continuation. The 2nd installment of trilogies are supposed to advance and expand on the events and knowledge occurred/gained from the 1st game. ME2 did just that. Here's what ME2 opened/cleared up from the events of ME1:



*The Protheans didn't create the Mass Relays and the Citadel, but the Reapers did

*The Protheans didn't fully disappear as a species, some of them were theoretically liquified and used in an attempt to create a Prothean-Reaper, but was in vain

*From above statement, the Reapers used the remaining slaved/indoctrinated Protheans as their militia by genetically altering them and embedding them with Reaper teach E.G. "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" I.E. How Sovereign took control of Saren to turn him into a Turian Husk.

*The Reaper reproduction process and how it requires organic life

*A deeper understanding of Cerberus intentions and some info on TIM, but not so much

*A Reaper invasion soon coming in the Milky Way Galaxy

*The intentions of Shepard and crew/squad after completion of the SM (Suicide Mission)

*A better understanding of how Reapers do things (Indoctrination/reproduction/thoughts/tech)

*Foreshadowing of ME3 missions E.G. Possible Liara finding and killing Shadow Broker?



What I can envision for ME3?



*A complete understanding of Prothean actions

*The definitive reason for Reapers to exist

*Cerberus's intentions fully revealed (including TIM's intentions and identity)

*Revealing of the Shadow Broker and his/her intentions

*Closure to Shepard and comp. mission and activities

*Bringing the races of the galaxy together to war against the Reapers

*LI relationship events in ME3

*Either a happy or sad ending to the trilogy (like how Shepard had to choose between saving the Collector Base or destroying it)



I probably haven't gotten all of the possibilities probably occurring in ME3, but it'll give us time to logically think of the events in the last game. I foresee a lot of closure and action plus extensive drama in the third game though. A lot of us would be like "Ooooh so that's why [insert name here] [insert action here] [insert preposition here] [insert another preposition here] [insert object/name here] [insert punctuation here]" We'll be satisfied with the story and we can play all 3 games again to recreate our own ending to the trilogy to see fit with out desires.

[FourSixEight]

Shandepared wrote...

ME-ParaShep wrote...

I think the plot from ME1 was deemed a pretty good continuation. The 2nd installment of trilogies are supposed to advance and expand on the events and knowledge occurred/gained from the 1st game. ME2 did just that.

No it didn't.

[smudboy]

[quote]theelementslayer wrote...

Alright, since you asked

Books (These are authors I enjoy)
-John Grisham
[/quote]
Explain how John Grisham's writing and narrative style allows us to identify with one of his protagonists', their motives, character, etc.  You can use plot structure, dialog structure, etc.  This will show me whether or not you understand his works, and maybe how they're effective.  Then, you can do the same with ME2's protagonist.  Seems simple ehough.

[quote]
As for effective writing well Im usually modest but since you asked. I was awarded the Grd 12 writing award (2009) for our school (out of 500 graduating students there were 3 of these handed out)

Plotted out a game for a final project in universiry, 1st year (2010 Winter), scripted and animaticed the first cutscene which awarded me an A+

And for good measure won bronze at an animation storytelling competition in provincials in grade 10. Ya Im pretty sure I know about effective writing.
[/quote]
Well there is a certain overlap between script and screenplay writing.  Congratulations.  Now, use all this knowledge and experience and tell me how the narrative has developed the plot of the series so well in ME2.

[quote]
Ive stated many times before. I wont this time but if you ask again yes I will restate so you dont have to look back at the other posts
[/quote]
Go for it.

[quote]
[quote]
"Sure you can get through the game with not doing most of them...."

Full stop.  Plot is fulfilled.
[/quote]

This is just a personal opinion, we dont know what the devs will do.
[/quote]
Um, what?  We're talking ME2 here.  If we don't need them in the plot, they're filler material.  Aka non-essential.  Aka, not going to be relevant in ME3 aside fan service.

[quote]
[quote]
Nonsense.
[/quote]

Why nonsense? Nothing can happen outside of the games scope?
[/quote]
Where are they implying a conversation we never get to see or hear, with everyone, about the Reapers?  Give me a break.  That's like saying they're having a conversation with everyone about the Quarian war, or the color of Joker's socks, or some stupid thought up crap I just came up with to satisfy this retarded speculation.

[quote]
[quote]
Samara is leaving.  Grunt is meaningless.  They are all optional.
[/quote]
Evidence to rebuke my ideas of why they are staying? Just stating that they will leave wont really help your argument.
[/quote]
They're here for the SM.  The SM is over.  They're gone.

Samara is here because 1) the name of a ship, 2) She is humbled by sensing Shepard's truth/relishes fighting the Collectors, 3) honor bound to finish the mission.  Mission is over.  If you try to romance her, she'll even state her oath is dissolved, and she'll be leaving.

Grunt just wants to kill things.  He can do that anywhere.  Regardless he can be locked up in the tank for the entire story and the plot won't care.

[quote]
[quote]
What do you mean regardless?  It was this June!  The man's opinion is clear.  His intention is to put in new
characters so we can have fun meeting them.
[/quote]

Again we dont know what the devs will do
[/quote]
But we can make very good judgements on what Casey has said, and what they won't do for obvious reasons.

[quote]
[quote]
Ever play ME2?  Yeah, they just did that exactly to their fans.
[/quote]

Ummm how did they do that? Everyone in ME1 was in ME2 one way or another. Sure you might not of liked how but they put everyone in as well as 2 being squadmates.
[/quote]
I'm sure the Romance fans of Liara, Ashley and Kaidan were thrilled.

4 were cameos.  Cameos I can buy.  They were not fully fledged, plot relevant ME2 characters in ME3.

[quote]
[quote]
They're making a brand new game.  They would do every asset from scratch.  This is not going to be ME2.5.  This is going to be ME3.  Every asset is going to be new.
[/quote]

I disagree. The management hasnt changed, the top line up of creative directors hasnt changed. Why waste time and money on frivolous restarting of character sketches. Would look kinda funny having Tali look different, or Mirandas hair blonde or something. Nah I think they will cut/paste the models.
[/quote]
Dude, they're making a brand new game.  What part of this don't you get?  Sure, I bet they'd use old models as a base, and then add to them, but then that'd be a new model.  What, is technology going to stagnate in two years?  Why upgrade textures, models?  F*ck, why even bother with new animations?  Just rehash the old stuff!  Please tell me, as a 3D guy trying to sell a product, that this isn't what you'd want.  Actually don't tell me, this is a completely and stupid point.

[quote]
[quote]
It matters because it's an asset that costs time and money to make, which must be taken into account before a schedule is made, salaries are handed out, and the producer understands what he's getting into, so shareholders don't bail
[/quote]
Projects go over budget all the time. No plan really changes anything, sure its a benchmark but things change. And how did this even tie into my argument?
[/quote]
This counts because time is money?  And for every character to possibly be relevant, and not be a generic placeholder, and not just be a cameo, would take sufficient time and money, x12?  Brand new assets, storyboards, planning, audio recordings, etc.?  This is pretty obvious, we've been discussing this very topic for days now.  If you can't see this argument, we're done. The fact that you think they're just copy/paste everything is beyond retarded, if you are in fact a 3D guy who's ever played a video game.

[ME-ParaShep]

Shandepared wrote...

ME-ParaShep wrote...

I think the plot from ME1 was deemed a pretty good continuation. The 2nd installment of trilogies are supposed to advance and expand on the events and knowledge occurred/gained from the 1st game. ME2 did just that.

No it didn't.

No, just no. Go read the rest of my post.. Unless.. you're scared? Nah just kidding. Cya.

[glacier1701]

ME-ParaShep wrote...
snip...
*The Protheans didn't create the Mass Relays and the Citadel, but the Reapers did

ME1 pretty much made this statement while ME2 did nothing to expand on it thus ME2 did not advance this in any way, shape or form.

ME-ParaShep wrote...
*The Protheans didn't fully disappear as a species, some of them were theoretically liquified and used in an attempt to create a Prothean-Reaper, but was in vain

We have no directly explicit statement that says that the Protheans were turned into slurpies to make a Reaper. All we have is a statement that says that for some unknown reason the Protheans were not good enough to make a Reaper. This doesn't add anything to the story and certainly does not give us anything to work on in helping stop the Reapers.

ME-ParaShep wrote...
*From above statement, the Reapers used the remaining slaved/indoctrinated Protheans as their militia by genetically altering them and embedding them with Reaper teach E.G. "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" I.E. How Sovereign took control of Saren to turn him into a Turian Husk.

Totally useless militia and not used properly but yeah this is something that we did get from ME2. About the only thing that this says is that what other Reaper surprises are waiting around we do not know about.

ME-ParaShep wrote...
*The Reaper reproduction process and how it requires organic life

This is not fully explained. The Reapers are still machine AI with a hive mind something like Legion. How organic goop is useful is never shown nor explained and quite frankly invalidates much of ME1 info and introduces several glaring plot flaws. We are just given this info but with no way to actually relate that to how it makes the Reapers any different from what we thought they were before.

ME-ParaShep wrote...
*A deeper understanding of Cerberus intentions and some info on TIM, but not so much

Nope - Cerberus has always been Pro-Human or Human first. Its pretty much what we found out in ME1. All ME2 did was give us the 'least' objectionable members of its organisation to work with. Remember JOKER joined Cerberus and he is certainly no human first terrorist. In short we got a a sanitised version of Cerberus which did not hide the facts we found out in ME1 about it NOR has it prevented the nastiness from continuing as we find out in OVERLORD.

ME-ParaShep wrote...
*A Reaper invasion soon coming in the Milky Way Galaxy

This was a given at the end of ME1. Its no revelation to have this occur at the end of ME2. In a way it says that ME1 did not matter.

ME-ParaShep wrote...
*The intentions of Shepard and crew/squad after completion of the SM (Suicide Mission)

What intentions? If its to stop the Reapers then that has been Shepards goal from ME1 and is no different now. As to the squad not ONE of them says anything about what they will do now the mission is over.

ME-ParaShep wrote...
*A better understanding of how Reapers do things (Indoctrination/reproduction/thoughts/tech)

Nope nothing here on this from ME2. Again the info we get in ME2 (apart from the need for slurpies) we already have from ME1.

ME-ParaShep wrote...
*Foreshadowing of ME3 missions E.G. Possible Liara finding and killing Shadow Broker?

 No foreshadowing so far as I can tell. The Liara thing is just some specualtion based on extracted audio from the game that was not used in the final version of the game that we got. Nothing from BioWare has hinted that we will see this go anywhere.

[theelementslayer]

Explain how John Grisham's writing and narrative style allows us to identify with one of his protagonists', their motives, character, etc.  You can use plot structure, dialog structure, etc.  This will show me whether or not you understand his works, and maybe how they're effective.  Then, you can do the same with ME2's protagonist.  Seems simple ehough.

Alright I think the way we identify with the protagonists of the story is through the problems that they face and I think Grisham does this really well. His problems are believable and common, but each are unique in their own way and how they react to them. Plot structure well, during his novels your left to do a bit of guess work during it until the end when they either confirm your suspicion or blow it away. Dialouge structure, well this is usually to more illustrate a character then really anything else. 

For ME2 they seem to follow many of these steps, but on a much larger scale. In those "frivolous loyalty quests" as you called them in your video it allows us deeper connection with the characters. Sure they are revenge issues, and family matters but it puts ME2 down to a personal level, and brings the characters closer to home. I can relate to revenge or having a bad childhood like Mirandas alot easier then I can when its oh no we can save everyone just let me take the lead. Nah I really cant relate to that as much as all those sidequests. 

Well there is a certain overlap between script and screenplay writing.  Congratulations.  Now, use all this knowledge and experience and tell me how the narrative has developed the plot of the series so well in ME2.

Thank you. Alright not english class but my work is rendering right now so why not. I have nothing better to do. First off we have to agree that this series isnt about the reapers, it isnt about the geth or Saren or the collectors. This is about Commader shepard. In the first game it had shepard come face to face with a threat, it established that commander shepard will have to fight and what she is up against.

The second game was a more in depth story-of shepard, which the series is about. Not in depth about the collectors, not the reapers. No, shepard and her relationship with the crew. It showed us really what she is able to do. Anyone can get lucky and kill a reaper because of sheer determination and having 100 ships at your disposal just because the old rule of the enemy of my enemy. But can someone gather a team, gain their trust, and take on an unknown threat, all while keeping a cool head and leading them into combat. This game proved that yes, Shepard can. It defined the role of her. Now we know two things about her. She is good in combat and determined-ME1, and she is a great leader that can gather 9 people together, gain their trust, and take on an unknown enemy-ME2. Two very vital things thatll come in handy when fighting the reapers in the last game. Thus a great continuation of the ME franchise and Commander Shepards story.

Go for it.

Alright

Character development-Each of these characters were done with beautiful care. From the eccentric scientist to the cold hearted Justicar, each and every one of the characters had uniqeness and some were very up front with it. Thane, and Tali, Garrus. Others you had to work with to understand their motives. Jack, and Samara, Miranda ect. Each was easily connectable with through the loyalty mission and each was different but equally good. Even Jacob for all the hate he gets wasnt a horrible character. Bit creepy yes, but overall had his motives, his reasons and his own ideals.

Pacing-People say this turned ME2 into a linear game but it made more sense. You didnt have all the time in the world and sometimes the battle wasnt fought on your terms-Horizon, Freedoms progress. This made the game much more immersive and it kept the plot going breaking up recruitment and such.

With holding of information-It made you keep guessing. Who are the collectors, what is their intrest in humans, why the intrest so recently, where is the homeworld, how do  they fight on their turf. Plus more intimate ones like why is Samara what she is, why is Miranda so cold sometimes? Who is tIM, what is his connection. Made me keep guessing and for you who say they dumbed down the plot how did they do that?

Um, what?  We're talking ME2 here.  If we don't need them in the plot, they're filler material.  Aka non-essential.  Aka, not going to be relevant in ME3 aside fan service.

We both dont know what they are going to do. Devs surprise everyone for better or for worse. They were the plot in ME2 if you look at my post about the story being shepards story.

Where are they implying a conversation we never get to see or hear, with everyone, about the Reapers?  Give me a break.  That's like saying they're having a conversation with everyone about the Quarian war, or the color of Joker's socks, or some stupid thought up crap I just came up with to satisfy this retarded speculation.

After the collector mission when Joker gives shepard the PDA with all of the info about probably Harbinger, and the crew is in with her. This is the real enemy, they know it. Shepard knows it. I believe that this is when the conversation took place about them staying for the Reapers. 

They're here for the SM.  The SM is over.  They're gone.


Samara is here because 1) the name of a ship, 2) She is humbled by sensing Shepard's truth/relishes fighting the Collectors, 3) honor bound to finish the mission.  Mission is over.  If you try to romance her, she'll even state her oath is dissolved, and she'll be leaving.

Grunt just wants to kill things.  He can do that anywhere.  Regardless he can be locked up in the tank for the entire story and the plot won't care.

You have rebuttled 2, what about the remaining 7 or 8?

And I do not agree with Samara leaving just because they are done the suicide mission. Sure that might have been how it started up but when you do her loyalty quest the reason she is a justicar is over. She killed her daughter finally. Also during the conversation leading up until you almost kiss her alot comes out and it feels like she cares for shepard. Another time, another life? That implies she has feelings for Shepard. And I dont think she will leave just because her code demands her. No her code is over now, she has fulfilled her primary role of killing Morinth. Now she will protect the innocent and since the galaxy is an innocent in terms of the reapers, why wouldnt she stay. Also the comment of her saying she will leave. I never got it, but I think this is more to do with the fact that she wants to try to forget about shepard

And Grunt, well sheps his battlemaster, his kin, his family. Hes not looking to go anywhere, his need for killing is less now that he has matured through the rite.

But we can make very good judgements on what Casey has said, and what they won't do for obvious reasons.

As stated before what the devs do is all speculation

I'm sure the Romance fans of Liara, Ashley and Kaidan were thrilled.

4 were cameos.  Cameos I can buy.  They were not fully fledged, plot relevant ME2 characters in ME3.

I am one of those Liara fans. Am I sad of what happened to her, yes. Does this take away from the story or my opinion of the game. No. I liked what they did made it feel more real and the Shepard was more human then usual. Not everything always goes his way, sometimes there are screwups, people move on, people get preconcived ideas. It fit the idea of Shepards story very well.

Dude, they're making a brand new game.  What part of this don't you get?  Sure, I bet they'd use old models as a base, and then add to them, but then that'd be a new model.  What, is technology going to stagnate in two years?  Why upgrade textures, models?  F*ck, why even bother with new animations?  Just rehash the old stuff!  Please tell me, as a 3D guy trying to sell a product, that this isn't what you'd want.  Actually don't tell me, this is a completely and stupid point.

And here comes the language. If you recall I said update the models. Thats what your suggesting. I also said they would have to change the animations, as each are unique to every game.

This counts because time is money?  And for every character to possibly be relevant, and not be a generic placeholder, and not just be a cameo, would take sufficient time and money, x12?  Brand new assets, storyboards, planning, audio recordings, etc.?  This is pretty obvious, we've been discussing this very topic for days now.  If you can't see this argument, we're done. The fact that you think they're just copy/paste everything is beyond retarded, if you are in fact a 3D guy who's ever played a video game.

Yes it is expensive but I cant see why EA/Bioware wouldn't do it. And no Im not talking about them just copy pasting it, I only ever said they wouldnt start the models from scratch. Thats all I said

[pprrff]

theelementslayer wrote...

And I do not agree with Samara leaving just because they are done the suicide mission. Sure that might have been how it started up but when you do her loyalty quest the reason she is a justicar is over. She killed her daughter finally. Also during the conversation leading up until you almost kiss her alot comes out and it feels like she cares for shepard. Another time, another life? That implies she has feelings for Shepard. And I dont think she will leave just because her code demands her. No her code is over now, she has fulfilled her primary role of killing Morinth. Now she will protect the innocent and since the galaxy is an innocent in terms of the reapers, why wouldnt she stay. Also the comment of her saying she will leave. I never got it, but I think this is more to do with the fact that she wants to try to forget about shepard

And Grunt, well sheps his battlemaster, his kin, his family. Hes not looking to go anywhere, his need for killing is less now that he has matured through the rite.

I absolutely agree that Grunt is perfectly content with Shepard, Shepard released him and commanded his loyalty, and I find it hard to believe the designers will ditch a perfectly good Krogan so that they can introduce another new krogan character in the next game.

Samara on the other hand can go both way, her finally dialogue can be intepreted as saying goodbye. But then she also says that Shepard can call on her for help in the future, so her reapparence is plausible.

@smudboy

Just because the game has character that doesn't tie into the central plot doesn't mean they are bad, or that they somehow weakens the game. Extra character can be a introduce plot unto themselves, helping the player immerse into the the game world by adding more variety. I don't mind taking a little detour to hunt down AY while wating for the Illusive man to get me some intel. If you wanted to role play a single minded and focused character then just skip the extraneous stuff. The game doesn't force you to recruit everyone.

[theelementslayer]

pprrff wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

And I do not agree with Samara leaving just because they are done the suicide mission. Sure that might have been how it started up but when you do her loyalty quest the reason she is a justicar is over. She killed her daughter finally. Also during the conversation leading up until you almost kiss her alot comes out and it feels like she cares for shepard. Another time, another life? That implies she has feelings for Shepard. And I dont think she will leave just because her code demands her. No her code is over now, she has fulfilled her primary role of killing Morinth. Now she will protect the innocent and since the galaxy is an innocent in terms of the reapers, why wouldnt she stay. Also the comment of her saying she will leave. I never got it, but I think this is more to do with the fact that she wants to try to forget about shepard

And Grunt, well sheps his battlemaster, his kin, his family. Hes not looking to go anywhere, his need for killing is less now that he has matured through the rite.

I absolutely agree that Grunt is perfectly content with Shepard, Shepard released him and commanded his loyalty, and I find it hard to believe the designers will ditch a perfectly good Krogan so that they can introduce another new krogan character in the next game.

Samara on the other hand can go both way, her finally dialogue can be intepreted as saying goodbye. But then she also says that Shepard can call on her for help in the future, so her reapparence is plausible.

@smudboy

Just because the game has character that doesn't tie into the central plot doesn't mean they are bad, or that they somehow weakens the game. Extra character can be a introduce plot unto themselves, helping the player immerse into the the game world by adding more variety. I don't mind taking a little detour to hunt down AY while wating for the Illusive man to get me some intel. If you wanted to role play a single minded and focused character then just skip the extraneous stuff. The game doesn't force you to recruit everyone.

Im just hoping Samara is back. If you can tell I just adore her too much and that damn teasing kiss. So close yet so far. I cant see why Bioware would take her out. Next to Tali and Liara, she is the next one that people love the most.

[awpdevil]

I dunno about Grunt. If I were him, I would be hitting up those female camps. If you consider the comment EDI made when you completed his mission. He could be to worn out to fight in me3 =)



As for Samara. She said if there were more Ardat Yakshi out there, she would find and kill them. But then again, she told Shepard that if he ever needed her aid, she would come for him. So I dunno. Maybe she'll be a call in like Marvel vs. Capcom lol.



ME1 and ME2 both used the same engine. The UE3. In one of their videos (forgot who said it) they mentioned that for two, that they basically found out how to use the engine well. So for three, I would only imagine they would try to tweak it a little further, but keep the basics from two. I would love to see it on Crytek's engine, but we all know that won't happen... Developers treat the UE3 engine like cocaine. This, in my opinion, has stagnated the industry. It will probably continue with UE4 as well sadly...

[smudboy]

pprrff wrote...
@smudboy

Just because the game has character that doesn't tie into the central plot doesn't mean they are bad, or that they somehow weakens the game. Extra character can be a introduce plot unto themselves, helping the player immerse into the the game world by adding more variety. I don't mind taking a little detour to hunt down AY while wating for the Illusive man to get me some intel. If you wanted to role play a single minded and focused character then just skip the extraneous stuff. The game doesn't force you to recruit everyone.

I totally agree.  Nor am I saying the characters are bad in this argument, just that because they're not plot relevant, we can't assume they'd be plot relevant in the next installment.  They were here for a very specific reason, and that reason is finished.

However, introducing new plots that don't tie into the main plot is dangerous, because it then distracts from the sense of urgency of the main plot.  The protagonist becomes disenfranchised with his goal, and the reason for existing in the narrative.  This works when tying in totally new characters, that eventually become part of the main plot.  Yes, it does sound contrived if the results of those other plots releate to that goal, but that's the point: if you wanted to tie a side story into that main plot, there are many ways to do so, so that the audience is not questioning every single step.  Again, the goal could be absolutely nothing or result in anything useful to our main goal, but if the reasons or premise for going on that side plot is explained, then it's like "Oh, we need to do this for our main goal!"  Even if it turns out to be fruitless.  It's like going on a trip from point A->B, but instead of taking a scenic route (A1, A2, A3, etc.), you decide to go F1, F2, F3, which has nothing to do with anything.  So our attention is merely there to understand other stuff, just because.  But do it too much, and the audience is going to think something's a little fishy.  No one likes going on dozens of wild goose chases.  For ME2, there was no premise for these side missions, and there was no end result to the main goal. (Save Mordin.)

The argument was related to ME2 characters being ME3 related.  Just as you stated, the game doesn't force you to recuirt everyone.  Thus, if they have the option to not even exist within the narrative, then there's absolutely no reason for them to exist in ME3.

Modifié par smudboy, 15 juillet 2010 - 11:04 .

[pprrff]

smudboy wrote...]
I totally agree.  Nor am I saying the characters are bad in this argument, just that because they're not plot relevant, we can't assume they'd be plot relevant in the next installment.  They were here for a very specific reason, and that reason is finished.

However, introducing new plots that don't tie into the main plot is dangerous, because it then distracts from the sense of urgency of the main plot.  The protagonist becomes disenfranchised with his goal, and the reason for existing in the narrative.  This works when tying in totally new characters, that eventually become part of the main plot.  Yes, it does sound contrived if the results of those other plots releate to that goal, but that's the point: if you wanted to tie a side story into that main plot, there are many ways to do so, so that the audience is not questioning every single step.  Again, the goal could be absolutely nothing or result in anything useful to our main goal, but if the reasons or premise for going on that side plot is explained, then it's like "Oh, we need to do this for our main goal!"  Even if it turns out to be fruitless.  It's like going on a trip from point A->B, but instead of taking a scenic route (A1, A2, A3, etc.), you decide to go F1, F2, F3, which has nothing to do with anything.  So our attention is merely there to understand other stuff, just because.  But do it too much, and the audience is going to think something's a little fishy.  No one likes going on dozens of wild goose chases.  For ME2, there was no premise for these side missions, and there was no end result to the main goal. (Save Mordin.)

The argument was related to ME2 characters being ME3 related.  Just as you stated, the game doesn't force you to recuirt everyone.  Thus, if they have the option to not even exist within the narrative, then there's absolutely no reason for them to exist in ME3.

Suppose you import a save that you didn't recruit Thane or Samara, kept Grunt in tank (which Cerbrus takes to study) and sold Legion, then yes, they should not appear in ME3 as part of your squad. That I will agree with you.

The other point you made is that you feel the recruiting and loyalty is a little disconnected from ultimate mission, which I agree with somewhat. I don't look at it as a distraction, I see it as part of your job. Your final mission amounted to breaking an alien base on foot (With some gratuitous ship-ship chase/fight). Toward that end, your boss (TIM) wanted you lead this assault like any good Hollywood wood movie. You can't do this yourself so you must enlist some specialists. You can look for help from you old crew, but only two were free, and you old contact (Council) keep you at an arm's length. It makes sense plot wise for TIM to give you leads so you can save your time. Of course as the leader, you choose who makes the team and who doesn't.

Just like any movies, your squad's background is flushed out, you find out about their personal issues. And in the process of completing the mission, you take care of those issues for them.

You are right in that instead having their problems worked as part of the main missions (like in ME1), you have to go out of your way to do them, which seems to make the game digress. However, it can be forgiven since it has more to do with game play mechanics than plot design, since this way the game gives you more enemies to kill and places to visit. And to the game's credit, you can respond to their personal requests with "i am too busy doing important things."

Modifié par pprrff, 15 juillet 2010 - 11:51 .

[smudboy]

pprrff wrote...
Suppose you import a save that you didn't recruit Thane or Samara, kept Grunt in tank (which Cerbrus takes to study) and sold Legion, then yes, they should not appear in ME3 as part of your squad. That I will agree with you.

And save two, they can all die.

And a player might not even import a save.

So there's 3 reasons why characters won't be coming back as fully fledged characters.  Cameo's I can see.  Lesser, generic placeholders.

The other point you made is that you feel the recruiting and loyalty is a little disconnected from ultimate mission, which I agree with somewhat. I don't look at it as a distraction, I see it as part of your job. Your final mission amounted to breaking an alien base on foot (With some gratuitous ship-ship chase/fight). Toward that end, your boss (TIM) wanted you lead this assault like any good Hollywood wood movie. You can't do this yourself so you must enlist some specialists. You can look for help from you old crew, but only two were free, and you old contact (Council) keep you at an arm's length. It makes sense plot wise for TIM to give you leads so you can save your time. Of course as the leader, you choose who makes the team and who doesn't.

No one is arguing that it's not part of Shepard's job to recruit people.  It's the reasoning to do so.  Sure we need a team, but for what purpose?  Even a made up one would be better than nothing.  Even if TIM simply acknowledged the contents of dossiers, like "I think you'll need a biotic, stronger than anyone else in the galaxy" then that would be acceptable.  Better still if he gave us a binary choice between two.

And the whole guessed land war in Asia while we're fighting an unknown spaceship battle in space yadda yadda.

Just like any movies, your squad's background is flushed out, you find out about their personal issues. And in the process of completing the mission, you take care of those issues for them.

Yes but those movies don't have entire subplots.  They occur within the context, or scope, of the story.  There are reasons why said characters come along (e.g. Guns of Navarone.)  They change along the way, but not because they each need to take one specific detour.  Now I've nothing wrong with running errands for the crew, but the formulaic mission system was only less monotonous through Samara and Thane's mission. 

You are right in that instead having their problems worked as part of the main missions (like in ME1), you have to go out of your way to do them, which seems to make the game digress. However, it can be forgiven since it has more to do with game play mechanics than plot design, since this way the game gives you more enemies to kill and places to visit. And to the game's credit, you can respond to their personal requests with "i am too busy doing important things."

You cannot forgive the narrative if it happens to be improperly set or part of a game or different media.  It's more than capable of having multiple media.  Alpha Protocol is an excellent example of how to have sub plots/missions tied in with main plot points.

[Iakus]

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...
]If you thought "working for" wasn't going to mean "fetch quest", you bought into the wrong genre of video game, even if that's a slight misuse of the term.
[/quote]

Actually what I expected were more quests for yo to demonstrate jsut how far Shepard is wiling to go to protect teh human race.  More dilemmas like what to do about Veetor.  maybe something ike "Shepard, the Aliance is snping around one of our bases.  Theit interference could jepordize the mission.  Deal with it.  What to do?  Kill teh Aliance overt operatives?  Sabotage their equipment?  Or maybe sabotage but leave tem some clues to find later?

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]Yes, TIm "presents himself" as the only one who will help you.  but aside from the visit to the Citadel (which, as I pointed out before, throws continuity out the window)[/quote]I don't really see that.
[/quote]

"Ah, yes, 'Reapers'= bad continuity


[quote][quote]Christmas Ape wrote...
[/quote]"Undercover? No, not really, Captain. I'm more...consulting. For a banned terrorist group. Outside Alliance and Citadel jurisdiction. Promise I'm still on your side. Could you maybe, you know, risk every scrap of political capital we've gained, to say nothing of censure and expulsion from the Citadel, by providing material support to said banned terrorist group?"

[/quote]


"Hey, Anderson, we go back a ways, think I can trade in all this Cerberus tech for a new ship and crew? You thought I actually worked for Cerberus? Haha good one. Watch the AI. She's shackled, but probably not too happy. By the way, how's Kaiden/Ashley doing? Been a while and I want to catch up?"
 
Note: pre-Horizon, My paragon Shep would have done this in a heartbeat. With maybe the only change being giving the crew an opportunity to join me or be put ashore on Omega.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]The various mercenary groups  (when he's not shooting at them?)[/quote]"Good evening, gentlemen. I'm Commander Shepard; you may remember me from two years ago, when I killed a couple hundred of your people with a fvcking tank. I'm a little strapped for cash at the moment; who wants to undertake a suicide mission on spec? Oh, and it will antagonize the Collectors, whom you purchase technology from."
[/quote]

"Good evening, gentlemen. I'm Commander Shepard; you may remember me from two years ago, when I killed a couple hundred of your people with a frakking tank, so you know you don't wanna mess with me. I've come for a business proposal. I have a wealthy benefactor here who's undertaking a rather risky venture. Something's been attacking the human colonies in the Terminus Systems. We want to hire you folks to provide us with intel on the movements of any Collector vessels you may find, and perhaps protection for the colonies themselves. Professor Solus here has been working on a way to neutralize their more effective attacks. My friend TIM here will pick up the tab for you and as an added bonus we'll throw in some Collector tech, as I'm sure with a bunch of big bad mercenaries like you, there'll be plenty of Collector guns to go around.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]The STG?[/quote](See "ask the Alliance", but without the political capital or species solidarity)
[/quote]

"Captain Kirahe? Comander Separd, from Virmire? How've I been? Dead. How about you? Uh huh. Uh huh. Look I'm afraid I'm in a bit of a time crunch here. I've got a really dangerous mission coming up and I was wondering if you could pull some strings and get me some intel on the down-low. The Salarians have been a space-faring race way longer than humans, and I was wondering if you could get me any info you have on the Collectors. Oh, and I was wondering if you could recommend any former STG types that might be willing to do a very dangerous mission on the cheap. You know, idealists who want to save the galaxy. Literally. And Mordin says "Hi"
Granted Mr "Hold the Line" may not have suvived everyones Me 1 playthroughs.


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]Aria?[/quote]Aria's world runs on naked self-interest and extends as far as the docking bay. She does help you as much as makes sense for the character, giving you intel on everyone you tell her you're looking for and offering carte blanche to shoot anyone not working directly for her. Omega doesn't care about you.
[/quote]


"Hey Aria, since I've done you a couple of favors, I was wondering if you could help me out. You have your ear to the ground. Got any recommendations on really good mercs who'd be willing to take orders from me? Oh and could you have someone keep an eye on that big red relay in the system here, and let me know if any ships enter or leave it? I'd count it as a personal favor."

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]Heck Liara could probably make some good recommendations.[/quote]She's a woman obsessed, devoting her resources to spanking the Shadow Broker on your behalf.
[/quote]


"Liara, you've done a lot to help me. I was wondering if I could ask you one more favor. TIM gave me this list of people I should recruit for my mission. I wonder if you could look it over and let me know if there's anything he "forgot" to mention about them. And if you can recommend any other mercenaries of their caliber, that would be an extra bonus."

Would any of this actually help?  maybe.  Probably not.  But the point is Shep doesn't even try. 

This doesn't include the various bargaining chips Shepard could use to convince the Alliance/Citadel to help:

Access to Cerberus records

Schematics of the new Normandy

Data on the Lazarus Project.  Even if he can't get at the direct records (or if Miranda won't let him), I'm sure he could get Chakwas to do some medical scans and draw some blood, etc for Citadel medics to look at.  Even incomplete data on teh "Cure for Death" must be worth something.  All for the low low price of some covert support.and information
 
[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...
And if frogs had wings they wouldn't bruise their ass when they jump.
[/quote]

I have no clue what this means.


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

[quote]All of which they don't know until after EDI gets the info from the
Collector ship.  At this point, TIM has already given you all the dossiers.  Not to mention that the Collectors/Reapers have had tens of thousands of year to putter around with the sensors.[/quote]The last set of dossiers are provided after the Cruiser. After the cruiser, you know the Collector origin point is deep in the gravitic hell of the galactic core. The likely absence of functional fighter craft - which are most effective against cruisers and bigger ships - was an acceptable risk to take.
And it's not Star Trek, there are limits to what reversing the polarity can do on a Mass Effect universe ship. Sensors in the galactic core is like trying to get cell phone reception inside a running microwave.
[/quote]

The last of the dossiers go out after Horizon, the first time you ever lay eyes on them (you can't trigger teh Colector ship mission until you've got eight squadmates).  At this point, you still don't know what they are capable of, how many there are, even if they have more than one ship.

Believe me, if we learned more about the Collector origin point much sooner in the game, it would have made these recruitment missions a lot easier to understand. 

"They seem to be counting on the enviroment to screeen out ships. There is little in the way of space defenses.  Just the one base, it seems.  Not a whole planet.  That's a good sign.  I wonder what's in this big open area in the middle?"


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...Intelligence work is like that. tIM is kind of a **** of a boss.
[/quote]


Stupid too, to keep the commander of this mission, Who happens to be an N7 Special Forces trained marine, who has captained his own ship, was the first human Spectre, and oh, yeah killed a Reaper in the dark about the operation. No chance he'd have any thoughts or insights into who to select for a mission, what kind of people might work well together or not, what specialists they may be lacking.  Details which may get everyone killed, plus humanity and the galaxy as a whole. Nope/
[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]Things do go right.  But given how little intellligence there seemed to be (to Shepard and the player) it's truly astounding just how right things went.[/quote]Like how Tali's meet with Saren's men is just breaking down when you arrive, the geth at Therum never think to use the mining laser, Benezia hasn't left Noveria yet even though she's done what she came to do, Zhu's Hope is still standing when you arrive, Saren is just now on his way to the Conduit and the Vigil detour doesn't put him too far ahead, one soldier can hold off an entire geth counter-attack until the nuke explodes, the Conduit remains open for just enough time for you to pursue Saren...
Coincidence and contrivance is the lifeblood of RPG narrative.
[/quote]


I'll admit that current technology keeps games like ME 1 from being played out in real-time (that would truly be an awesome experience to dwarf even Alpha Protocol's decision-shaping features) As it is, the situation in ME 1 are kind of a modular experience. You go there, here's the setup, now play. ME 2's suicide mission you are (theoretically) supposed to be planning and preparing for it for the entirety of the game. Yet somehow, it's already planned out for you. All you have to do is connect the dots.
 
The way I see it, the game should have gone about the Suicide Mission in one of two ways:
 
1) TIM and Shepard get a hold of at least a little information on the Collector Base at the beginning. Nothing detailed, but enough to justify the choices TIM makes. OR...
 
2) Go "whole hog" into contrivance to make the experience so awesome the Rule of Cool overshadows everything. This is actually the route I'd prefer, but it's less feasible. basically, there would be 12 specialist challenges along the Suicide Mission, one specifically designed for each squad mate (with appropriate duplication of abilities available, no need to turn one mistake into an irrecoverable death spiral)
 
 For example. Grunt is a krogan, renowned for close-quarters combat. There should be a point in the mission where such a specialist is needed "Boy good thing we let Grunt out of the tank, huh?"
[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]I admit ME 3 might close the circle and have everything make sense.  However, ME 1 had a definitive beginning, middle, and end, why couldn't ME 2?  Why settle for half a game?[/quote]Many aren't left with the impression of "half a game" at all.
- Someone - the Collectors - are kidnapping human colonial populations.
- While recruiting a selection of powerful specialists to back up Shepard, it becomes clear the Collectors are also interested in Shepard personally - or more precisely, the Reapers are interested and are using the no-longer-sapient Collectors as tools to that end.
- Shepard and team stage a daring suicide raid on the Collector base and, with a combination of luck, talent, surprise, and enthusiasm, lay waste to it.

[/quote]

And that description seriously overplays the role the Collectors play in this game, as well as the missing colonies , the interest in Shepard (which no one but Harbringer seems to comment on)

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...
What assumption? We know we have Veetor's data. We know we haven't met a Collector in person yet. Mordin has a Seeker in his lab when you ask about the counter-measure.
Ergo, he built it.

[/quote]

Indeed, we have to accept it.  It's preposterous, but the only explanation that fits.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]Again, uncomfortable is commiting, or allowing distasteful things to happen for a greater good.  Commiting acts of betrayal on former friends. Working alongside former enemies.[/quote]So we're agreed. You spend the whole game funneling intel their way, building up their image, having old dear friends accuse you to your face of betraying the Alliance...

[/quote]

What info does Shepard funnel to Cerberus?  He just goes and shoots stuff and sets off traps so TIM can have a good laugh.

Image?  Most of the galaxy thinks you're dead.  Most of those who know otherwise see your rep as tarnished more than Cerberus' name being improved. 

I can't think of any missions where you actually betray the Alliance or former squaddies (except for being dead for two years) Agreeing to help Cerberus is certainly seen as Not A Good Thing.  But's it's more guilt by association.

The most morally questionable deed Shep seems to have to countenence is actually agreeing to work alongside Cerberus.   How is that "dark and gritty"?

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

What we got was the upper ranks of Cerberus drawing the blinds around Shepard, offering only what intel is vital to her mission or involves a project gone off the rails.

[/quote]

See above on why that's a really stupid system to use.  And which really smacks of plot rails.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]Honestly, did Shepard actually do anything that absolutely no one else could do?[/quote]Negotiate a cooperative effort with the quarian strike team that made recovering Veetor's data - the only evidence it's not slavers or pirates - possible, for one. Any other hump in a Cerberus uniform would have been gunned down on the spot. To the rest of, it's possible any other N7 officer could have recruited that team and led that mission, but such can be said of any RPG not relying on the hokey-ass "Chosen One" premise.
[/quote]


Shepard only avoided a gunfight because Tali was there. The only quarian he's ever met,coincidentally
 
As to the second, my point is that Jacob or Miranda could probably have done most everything else needed in this game. Maybe with a higher body count, but yeah, TIM and his six billion credit investment really made Shep "The Chosen One". ME 1 was much more "right place at the right time"
[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]Yes, they are not used to working in a group.  If they interacted more, that would be growth.  They'd be coming together as a team.  Cut scenes wouldn't be needed, just some dialogue would be fine.  Let them chat.  It's quite clear that great care was put into making these characters and their stories.  Let them mingle.  Shepard isn't (or shouldn't be) the entirety of their universe.[/quote]Well, frogs once again. The value of adding more cutscenes or background conversations to the game against the programming demands of having the crew all wander the ship I leave as an exercise for the reader.
[/quote]

Still don't know what frogs have to do with anything.  Wandering the ship is a bit much. But even having them chat while on a mission, while wandering around Illium or Omega.  The one scene in the Citadel between Garrus and Tali is often cited as being a wonderful surprise.  Pity it's also unique.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]True, but I did pick some of the more likely ones (Thane to Samara's mission[/quote]I'll give you that one, though I can also see Thane not calling attention to his calling in that circumstance.

[/quote]

I can also se im having something to say about a parent out to kill her child.  I can also se Samara having something to say about a father trying to save his son from a life of crime and violence.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]Miranda to Jacob's[/quote]Miranda plays her cards very close to the vest at all times. She only tells Jacob she passed it on because he gets excited enough about it to call tIM on the Big Red Phone.

[/quote]

Okay, flip them.  Jacob at Miranda's loyalty mission.  All I've seen from that one is Jack giving a quip which, while I shared her sentiments, really had nothing to do with the plot.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]Samara to Zaeed's
[/quote]I'll give you this one too, though she does swear to follow Shepard's lead and clearly takes her oaths seriously.

[/quote]

Is that a train I hear?

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]Tali to Mordin's[/quote]Just don't see it. She's an engineer, not a geneticist.
[/quote]

No, but her people created the geth, and lost their homeworld and all thier colonies in a vicious, bloody war.  You have to wonder:  would a quarian sympathize more with the salarians, who performed a terrible act to correct a mistake before it engulfed the galaxy in war.  Or do they identify with the krogan, who have lost their civilization, are threatened with extinction, and are now seen largely as galactic pariahs? 

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]And this doesn't even include random banter that could happen anywhere, depending on your party combination.  No cutscenes or talkboxes needed.[/quote]If each squadmate had one conversation they start with each other squadmate, and they're about elevator conversation long, that's another ~700 lines of dialog to record. Logistics must be accounted for.

[/quote]

So the codex can be voiced but squadmates must stand mute? 

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...




[quote]None.  He says that after you give your "I'm gonna find a way to stop the Reapers" speach and walked out of the room.  He's talking to Anderson and the Council.[/quote]Anderson, who believes in the Reapers? And I seem to remember Udina being outraged at the Council for dismissing your claims, staunchly advocating for you - until it's politically expedient to stab you in the back. If Udina told me the sky was blue I'd go to a window and check.[/quote]

Udina was outraged that the Council was refusing to do anything about Eden Prime, and the claim that humans weren't ready for the Spectres.  He never actually backed Shep specifically.  I'd think Udina would push for the Reapers simply because Citadel on war footing strengthens humanity's position.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]And allow for the fact that TIM still holds most of the cards concerning the Collector and Reaper information.  Shepard is still pretty much in the dark, no better off than he was in ME 1, except at least then he had the backing of the Council and Alliance.[/quote]'Backing' which amounted to "we have some errands for you" and "feel free to wander the Presidium" and "three aliens a billion kilometers away second-guess your decisions from a comfy office". You don't even get access to Saren's files, but have to wait for the Council to tell you he has a massive facility on Virmire they've been investigating.
[/quote]

Three aliens who, in the end, believed you and were humbled.  Or died and were replaced.


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

And there is disagreement on this issue. "You halted the Reaper agenda - and they killed you for it" serves as a workable transition for me. You pass from 'the first human spectre, Hero of the Battle of the Citadel" literally into the Underworld, first via death and then through the seedier portions of the lawless Terminus Systems. Hero's Journey. [/quote]
 
There's the Hero's Journey.  Then there's the Hamfisted Plot-Device.  DOing this in teh beginning of a game, even a sequel, falls into the latter, I believe.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]Yet when you violently jerk the main protagonist around from one setting to another, one cast of characters to another[/quote]Most characters of any importance show up again, if apparently less than people wanted. Some new faces are added, but this often happens in second acts.
[/quote] 

"Apparantly less than people wanted" is putting it mildly.  I actually wonder if some were stuck in there specifically to remind people that, yes, this is set in the Mass Efect universe

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]with no transition and little explanation[/quote]That's a matter of opinion and perception. The transition is "the Reapers killed you - but you're better now", the explanation being "your old team hasn't spent two years at your gravesite waiting for you to come back".[/quote]

That may have been the intention, but the reesults felt more like "the transition is, we have a new game, so we have to reset you" and the explanation being "We want to experiment with the story in the middle of the trilogy"

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]you're not creating Star Wars, you're making James Bond[/quote]Bond stories have a conscious lack of continuity, which is not the same as "I don't like their linking device".
[/quote]
My first choice of terms was going to be "comic book" but decided that would be misinterpreted as being insulting. Stories only connect to the degree the writers can be bothered to connect them

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...
Space is huge; I imagine there's a lot of "rumors of her death seem greatly exaggerated" outside the old team. As to Shepard taking it well, I tend to imagine her as something of a mission-focused individual. Philosophy is for after the Collectors are dealt with. But I'll agree that we may not be able to reach consensus on this point. I do approve of your suggested intro, I just think it would be a harder sell for those new to the franchise.

[/quote]

"Your heart stopped beating for a moment.  We thought you lost you" and not sweating it is being mission-focused

'You were clinically dead for seven minutes" And being all casual about it is being mission-focused.

"You were dead for two eyars and we had to rebuild you from the ground up" Should have anyone who's brains aren't made of cement staring at a wall and pondering deep thoughts.  "Am I still me?"  "What do I remember?"  How?" "Why?"  at the very least  "How much back pay do I have coming?"  Religious or not.  Death is a Big Deal. 

Science fiction stories can push back the line between life and death.  Science fantasy can make one dance along that line.  Play with that line, and you're threatening to delve into some pretty deep and controversial levels perhaps not made for video games.  Yet ME 2 chooses to blow it off.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...
Sadly, projects have a way of going over schedule in the video game industry. Maybe there just wasn't room on the ME1 disc, so they polished it up and put it as 2's intro?

[/quote] 

I'd be curious to find out if this is so.  If it is, I still think they'd have been better of scrapping the idea.

Modifié par iakus, 16 juillet 2010 - 06:30 .