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[darth_lopez]

smudboy wrote...

If it's stand alone, then it doesn't follow continuity, and thus is not a sequel.

i find fault with this logic. i will now compare a well known undeniable sequel to a previous film to ME 2

-------------------------------------------------
Part 1 of Lopez's rebuttal
Empire Strikes Back and ME 2 as Stand alone stories

Empire Strikes Back. is a sequel. Empire Strikes Back is also capable of being viewed only as Empire Strikes back and requires little to no real experience with it's predecessor to watch and make sense of. 


the only questions that come to mind from the aspect of not watching the first are

1]who is luke
2]who is han
3]who is leia
4]who is Darth Vader.

the viewer will come to understand that Vader is the right hand man of the tyrant ruling a galaxy spanning empire and that luke is apparently the last of the jedi his main goal is to kill darth vader and reign in galactic peace. who are knights that weild lazer swords. Stormtroopers are the bad guys and the Empire is evil. Leia is a Rebel leader han is smuggler (bad ass smuggler) who is aiding the rebellion Boba Fett is Boba Fett and Han and Lando are friends. that han has a bounty on his head. That they are trying to escape the empire that is trying to capture them. that their main goal is to re-unite with the rebel fleet we see that they are fighting against the empire. that han is captured and might need recovery from this Jabba the hutt. and that the empire desperately wants to capture luke and vader is his father. we are intorduced to force powers again which are awe inspiring.

they can get the overall gyst of the star wars trilogy basically that luke is the only one capable of killing darth vader to reign in galactic peace in an overthrow of a tyranical government, which with only the original Trilogy is all you need to know considering the overall story and plot are directly related to luke and his journey as jedi and his goal of killing vader. (not taking into acount the prequels and george lucas)

now to compare to ME 2 as a standalone.

from the start the player will wonder

1] what is a reaper
2]who is udina/anderson
3]who is kaiden/ashley
4] who is garrus
5] who is tali
6]Why is shepard so important?
7]how is it possible he survived all that? 
8] what are geth?
9] what is a spectre?

These are all answered almost in the order i put them in except Q.6. you find that out quite quickly you also find out how he was revived. You as a player then proceed to learn about the reapers and their goal. That shepard killed one and is the only living being who managed to atm. you almost immediatly find out kaiden ashley garrus and tali are squad mates. you have no knowledge of Wrex if you are new and by default he is not in ME 2.

You also find out about your squadmate liara. You learn about what happened in ME 1 with a quick and concise recap. you learn that humans are being attacked and you are possibly the only man alive who can stop it. you find out that the reapers may be behind it. you then find out about the main antagonist of the story the collectors and that they may be working with the reapers. 

you visit the citadel and you meet anderson/udina you find out about your past and that you were spectre your status is honorarily re-instated. you see that these 'Geth' , no doubt a major antagonist, attacked the citadel before and are also allied with the reapers and since then security has been increased. you then proceed with the task given to you by the illusive mand you gather a squad in the hopes of forming a team capable of taking the collectors down. You proceed on your main quest and through the process confirm it is the collectors and they are most likely working with the reapers. your crew is finally captured and you are forced to attack. you head to their homeoworld and kill their base of operations. it is confirmed they are workign with reapers and you eiehter hand over the tech they have to Cerberus or destroy it. end game we see the reapers are preparing a full scale attack leading into ME 3

**Note: i didn't include what is cerberus because that's a question even some ME players might have not everyone rescues the marines.**

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary of part 1

Both Empire Strikes back (a sequel to the oringinal A new Hope and middle man in the original star wars trilogy) and Mass Effect 2  are understandable to the player as a standalone visually interactive experience. They do not require the aid of their predecessors to tell the story already set in motion and expand upon it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Part 2 of Lopez's rebuttal
ME 2 and Empire Strikes Back as Sequels


Empire strikes back is as i said an undeniable sequel to a New Hope.

as viewers of the first movie We see luke progress in his jedi training we see the empire begin their effort to capture and convert or destroy him. we see the relationship between han solo and Princess leia evolve. we also see  the story progress though the majority of it focuses primarily on getting to a rally point. the overall story is progressed by luke becoming a jedi and being ready (in his mind) to fight vader. but as he is training Leia and han are captured (oh noez)  and he must stop to save them. he then confronts vader and finds out he is his father (double oh noez) and so the plot line of luke defeating vader is further progressed and the rebellion gets one step closer to liberating the galaxy.

thus the main story of Star Wars is clearly furthered in EP. V


in ME  2 we see a similar evolution.

we are introduced to a new antagonist who turns out to be a pawn of the reapers we find out that the reapers feel humanity is a threat to them and they are trying to harvest our natural traits and reproduce to create 'human' reapers to aid in their invasion of our galaxy. at the end we see that despite thwarting both this attempt to one up organic life and their previous ambush they are preparing for a massive fulll scale invasion and we the player are left to think "well bojangly bojangleton how the bojangles are we gonna stop those bojanglers in ME 3?! awe bojangles we are soo boned." 

thus the main story of the series is clearly furthered in ME 2

---------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion

So we have seen now that Both TESB and ME 2 are Sequels but can still function as standalone stories themselves. how they function depends on the perspective of the player/viewer 

Both follow and over arching continuity with out contradicting it at any point in the story and as such your logic is shown as flawed.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 19 juillet 2010 - 05:39 .

[aimlessgun]

Damn 14 pages.



The plot of ME2 had a lot of flaws. Any honest person will admit to it. The final boss/abduction thing was idiotic. The fact that you could only choose between giving the base to TIM or destroying it was idiotic. The whole collector thing is just sort of an odd tangent to the main story of the reapers.



Whatever.

[Terraneaux]

ME 2 tried to be a character-driven story, but didn't allow the main character any development. It comes off as a lot of game writers have a ****** session about their 4w3s0m3 sup3r k3wl characters they made, and putting as little effort as possible into the main character, as it's something they don't have control over.

[smudboy]

darth_lopez wrote...
stuff

If B does not follow A (A!->, then B is not continuous.  Existing in the same universe can be an aside, much the same way Star Trek doesn't have an overarching plot: it's just a series of static stories, loosely connected to each other.  Compare this to Babylon 5.  The problem with ME2 is that that's all it is, when it should have been connected to ME1's plot with its characters, but it didn't.

In order to find fault in my logic, you have to actually argue my logic, not ask questions of who characters are because the viewer doesn't have knowledge of the first game.  Some of those questions you can't even answer, and some have no bearing on the plot. If the plot is not continuous, but the characters are, then who the hell cares about continuity?

However, your argument doesn't even mention about ME2 characters developing.  The only characters that do develop are side characters, as opposed to Luke, Han, Leia and Vader, who are all main characters.  If a bunch of random people have nothing to do with the previous installment get the spotlight, then where's the continuity?  Is this now Tali's or Garrus's story?  That's what it sounds like.  Instead, it should be about the main characters development, which, we get 0 of.  We don't even get an appropriate antagonist, and Shepard's reduced to a gofer.  So apparently, this is Shepard's story, because he/she exists from the previous story, but shows 0 development, yet has no real opposition or facetime with our "enemy."  So along with no plot development, and no character development of any value, this shows no continuity of any value, and is merely an aside that exists in the same universe.

And that was one sentence, which started with "If...", which was a response from another poster.

[darth_lopez]

smudboy wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
stuff

If B does not follow A (A!->, then B is not continuous. 

(summarized as idiocy)

it did and you seemed to miss it. in both cases A is indeed followed by B with B being a Mid point to C. 

it is a continious line of story. you may choose to view anything you interpret as plot wholes as breaks in continuity i see them as removable discontinuities. considering any plot whole in ME 2 doesn't interfer with the larger plot of the series.

now for you because you seem to be mentally challenged.

the story flow in the series.

ME 1- Shepard is sent to recover a prothean becon while being evaluated as spectre material evaluated is killed by saren saren is a bad guy. we find out about something we later call the reapers prove saren is a bad guy and go to capture or kill saren. in the process we learn the reapers want to wipe out all organic life for some reason we can't understand yet. we know that sovereign saren's flag ship is a reaper and that they have a back door to the citadel which will allow them to gain access to the citadel and open a mass relay that will usher in the end of sentient organic life. We go to stop saren and reaper thing. we kill them both threat averted.

ME 2- pard knows that the reapers are still out there but currently has no leads on where they could be or how to beat them. so he resigns to skirmishing with geth for a time where he is ambushed by a ship that can some how detect the normandy (a super advanced alliance stealth firgate) Could these be reapers or some how linked? as the Normandy is the pinnacle of Citadel Technology and completely undetectable by any ship with out visual contact while it's stealth systems are engaged? we are left in suspense as we watch shepard 'die' we later find out that cerberus a Humanity first organization has brought him back to life because somehting is attacking human colonies for unknown reasons. the first thought to come to every characters mind is Reapers they are doing this or that it could be a lead in finding and stopping the reaper invasion. Shepard goes to investigate finds out the collectors are doing it. he then proceeds to gather a new team gathering some old friends in the process. they then proceed to try stopping the collectors and in the process find out they were the protheans the race long thought to be extinct but in reality were just turned into mindless slavey bug things for the reapers. and as they find this out can also make the reasonable conjecture that the reapers are giving commands to them to ultimately further their goal of invasion. Exactly why is still unknown. Shepard heads to the protehan base and finds out theyr are melting humans down and some how adding their genetic material to the larva of a reaper. We now know that reapers use the genetic material of the races they are conquering to reproduce. we now have a possible motive for the reapers actions though we can not be sure if there is more the game ends as we see a reaper fleet preparing for and assault from Dark Space.


end story. 

***note do not interpret ME 1 and ME 2 to be breaks in the story to avoid this here is the story for special needs***

Mass Effect Story:

Shepard is sent to recover a prothean becon while being evaluated as spectre material evaluated is killed by saren saren is a bad guy. we find out about something we later call the reapers prove saren is a bad guy and go to capture or kill saren. in the process we learn the reapers want to wipe out all organic life for some reason we can't understand yet. we know that sovereign saren's flag ship is a reaper and that they have a back door to the citadel which will allow them to gain access to the citadel and open a mass relay that will usher in the end of sentient organic life. We go to stop saren and reaper thing. we kill them both threat averted. shepard knows that the reapers are still out there but currently has no leads on where they could be or how to beat them. so he resigns to skirmishing with geth for a time where he is ambushed by a ship that can some how detect the normandy (a super advanced alliance stealth firgate) Could these be reapers or some how linked? as the Normandy is the pinnacle of Citadel Technology and completely undetectable by any ship with out visual contact while it's stealth systems are engaged? we are left in suspense as we watch shepard 'die' we later find out that cerberus a Humanity first organization has brought him back to life because somehting is attacking human colonies for unknown reasons. the first thought to come to every characters mind is Reapers they are doing this or that it could be a lead in finding and stopping the reaper invasion. Shepard goes to investigate finds out the collectors are doing it. he then proceeds to gather a new team gathering some old friends in the process. they then proceed to try stopping the collectors and in the process find out they were the protheans the race long thought to be extinct but in reality were just turned into mindless slavey bug things for the reapers. and as they find this out can also make the reasonable conjecture that the reapers are giving commands to them to ultimately further their goal of invasion. Exactly why is still unknown. Shepard heads to the protehan base and finds out theyr are melting humans down and some how adding their genetic material to the larva of a reaper. We now know that reapers use the genetic material of the races they are conquering to reproduce. we now have a possible motive for the reapers actions though we can not be sure if there is more the game ends as we see a reaper fleet preparing for and assault from Dark Space.

**********************end Special needs story (all i did was remove ME -1 and ME -2 as some people obviously can't understand that sequels often don't have the same name as the first this may have been construed as discontinuity)*********************


Please point out the discontinuity in the ME 1 -  ME 2 story overall as a series? because i see none unless you count stuff for dramatic effect like the 2 year break in time due to shepards death (there was an equally similar break in time between all star wars films.) but that's all i can think of that causes any form of discontinuity between ME 1 and ME 2. and that's not a big thing.



-----------------
characters


as far as character development goes. if your main character didn't develop in an RPG i blame you. I felt my shep developed quite a bit. h. fyi only character development related to story for shepard  in me 1 is that he becomes a spectre whoopie and latter the hero of teh galaxy? again this is an RPG if you feel your character didn't develop enough go make a new one and try PLAYING the ROLE of Shepard,  which we see in ME 2 is still the same (spectre councils hand? undover super cop soldier essentially that would be his role), and Try to get into Character and MAKE your own development part of the whole RPG i can customize my character thing there.

and one could argue that characters in ME 1 didn't develop enough for example Garrus Tali Kaiden Ashley all characters in Numero uno that didn't develop a different attitude or any traits that better themselves Garrus stayed a cop on the edge with no change in his moral alignment Ashley continued to distrust aliens Kaiden continued to be a Carth Tali had no development at all in ME 1. 

in ME2 we see everything develop and if you made a good character and like RPGs you see your  character develop as well. 


and yes characters are a big thing in star wars and they also are in ME 2.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 19 juillet 2010 - 07:49 .

[smudboy]

darth_lopez wrote...
it did and you seemed to miss it. in both cases A is indeed followed by B with B being a Mid point to C. 

And what is B again?

it is a continious line of story. you may choose to view anything you interpret as plot wholes as breaks in continuity i see them as removable discontinuities. considering any plot whole in ME 2 doesn't interfer with the larger plot of the series.

Okay so, you like the plot holes, or are you saying you just disregard them?  Well hey, whatever works in your world.

ME2 doesn't interfere with the "larger" plot of the series.  It had nothing to do with it, because the plot from ME1 didn't develop.

now for you because you seem to be mentally challenged.

Well someone raised you right.

ungodly long something

All of which is moot, because the series is rebooted by 1) killing the protagonist, 2) having a 2 year time gap so everything is disconnected and reset, 3) and then magically bringing the protagonist back from the dead.

Now at this point if the Reaper plot from ME1 picks up where we left off, then great.  But it didn't.  We get a proxy war by apparent proxy agents of the Reapers, even though the writers had plenty of things to work with (Prothean Cipher visions, mystery of the Relays/Citadel/Conduit/Prothean Artefacts and other dig sites, exposition on dark space, learning more about the Geth, rebuilding the Citadel, creating alliances, finding evidence fo the Reapers, etc.), and instead got a frame story of characters that only exist because TIM said to.  ME2 ends by killing the new main opposing force, and we get a video of 3rd person omniscient view of a "Harbinger" hologram, and Reapers traveling somewhere.  That's all.

Oh and the Collectors were Protheans.

[ADLegend21]

UGH.
Mass effect = stopping the reapers form destroying the galaxy.
Mass effect 2= building a Squad to stop the reapers while stopping Agents of reapers who turn out to be the last people who tried to stop the reapers before you.
Common variable= the reapers. Same story, jsut a different approach by the reapers until Mass effect 3 where we kill every last one of the reapers.....Just noticed something....Mass effect 1 had 1 disc...mass effect 2 had 2 discs....so maybe mass effect 3 will have 3 discs!

[darth_lopez]

smudboy wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
it did and you seemed to miss it. in both cases A is indeed followed by B with B being a Mid point to C. 

And what is B again?

it is a continious line of story. you may choose to view anything you interpret as plot wholes as breaks in continuity i see them as removable discontinuities. considering any plot whole in ME 2 doesn't interfer with the larger plot of the series.

Okay so, you like the plot holes, or are you saying you just disregard them?  Well hey, whatever works in your world.

ME2 doesn't interfere with the "larger" plot of the series.  It had nothing to do with it, because the plot from ME1 didn't develop.

If you cannot see how ME 1 and ME 2 connect then you do have some sort of problem. you sir need alot of therapy.

oh on a side note at least i get the basic concept of a sequel and what makes a sequel a sequel. you have alot Alot of work to do with that. Enjoy your picture books come back when you have some common sense.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 20 juillet 2010 - 02:01 .

[II Sl4sh3r II]

Edit:
Replied to the wrong thread..
Damn you firefox tabs!!!

Modifié par II Sl4sh3r II, 20 juillet 2010 - 02:30 .

[smudboy]

darth_lopez wrote...
If you cannot see how ME 1 and ME 2 connect then you do have some sort of problem. you sir need alot of therapy.

oh on a side note at least i get the basic concept of a sequel and what makes a sequel a sequel. you have alot Alot of work to do with that. Enjoy your picture books come back when you have some common sense.

Thank you.  I do need help.  I feel you are the best one to help me, since you know what makes a sequel a sequel.

So please tell me: what makes ME2 a sequel to ME1?

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...
Thank you.  I do need help.  I feel you are the best one to help me, since you know what makes a sequel a sequel.

So please tell me: what makes ME2 a sequel to ME1?

Just as an observation: you certainly seem to make alot of new friends everywhere you post. Must say, I'm somewhat jealous.

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:20 .

[darth_lopez]

smudboy wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
If you cannot see how ME 1 and ME 2 connect then you do have some sort of problem. you sir need alot of therapy.

oh on a side note at least i get the basic concept of a sequel and what makes a sequel a sequel. you have alot Alot of work to do with that. Enjoy your picture books come back when you have some common sense.

Thank you.  I do need help.  I feel you are the best one to help me, since you know what makes a sequel a sequel.

So please tell me: what makes ME2 a sequel to ME1?

obviously the continuing story line. i've already explained it to you you just don't seem to get it. go get your head checked.

[Wehrmacht007]

ME2 > ME1. Bigger and better

[Christmas Ape]

To olive branch this whole debacle, I am willing to admit that ME2 does not follow a pure textbook example of narrative flow.



Mind you, it's not a novel, dozens of classic works disregard the form entirely and are still well received, and given I remember that proscriptive tripe being taught in the 80's it has glaring gaps as regards "new" media, but yes, if you wrote out ME2 as a Grade 9 Creative Writing assignment you'd likely be told to "review narrative structure".



Thank the Maker it's actually a video game, and a series-of-vignettes installment in a larger story.

[Terraneaux]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Thank the Maker it's actually a video game, and a series-of-vignettes installment in a larger story.

I would have preferred it to have a real story, I think.

[smudboy]

darth_lopez wrote...

smudboy wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
If you cannot see how ME 1 and ME 2 connect then you do have some sort of problem. you sir need alot of therapy.

oh on a side note at least i get the basic concept of a sequel and what makes a sequel a sequel. you have alot Alot of work to do with that. Enjoy your picture books come back when you have some common sense.

Thank you.  I do need help.  I feel you are the best one to help me, since you know what makes a sequel a sequel.

So please tell me: what makes ME2 a sequel to ME1?

obviously the continuing story line. i've already explained it to you you just don't seem to get it. go get your head checked.

Could you tell me what the continuing story line is then?  I fear even having checked my head several times I still need it explained.  Thanks.

[glacier1701]

Darth,



I too would like to hear your opinion on what a sequel is and why ME2 IS the proper sequel to ME1. Personally I think its the wrong story and adds nothing to what we know. You could throw it out and be no worse off than you were at the end of ME1. That says to me that ME2 is filler and nothing more.

[Kijin]

smudboy wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

smudboy wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
If you cannot see how ME 1 and ME 2 connect then you do have some sort of problem. you sir need alot of therapy.

oh on a side note at least i get the basic concept of a sequel and what makes a sequel a sequel. you have alot Alot of work to do with that. Enjoy your picture books come back when you have some common sense.

Thank you.  I do need help.  I feel you are the best one to help me, since you know what makes a sequel a sequel.

So please tell me: what makes ME2 a sequel to ME1?

obviously the continuing story line. i've already explained it to you you just don't seem to get it. go get your head checked.

Could you tell me what the continuing story line is then?  I fear even having checked my head several times I still need it explained.  Thanks.

The plot in both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 was sparse. Before we forget, the plot of Mass Effect 1 was that an ancient race of 'evil' machines awoken and they attempted to destroy all organic life in the galaxy. The 'evil villain' who wants to destroy everything' is hardly an original plot, but most people seemed to be satisfied with it. The 'ancient evil' in Mass Effect 1 were the Reapers, and the game told you next to nothing about them. In the original game, the Reapers were never involved until the very end; they instead choose to intervene through Saren and the enslaved Geth. 

Mass Effect 2 had a similar plot. Instead of working through Saren and the Geth, the Reapers instead chose to work through the Collectors. Instead of attempting to destroy all organic life, the Reapers were trying to create a human Reaper (which presumably would help them in the aforementioned task of destroying all organic life). We receive some new details about the Reapers, but nothing earth shattering. As per usual, the Reapers only show up at the very end of the game. 

Mass Effect 2 is a sequel, by virtue of the fact that we know they were responsible both for Saren and the Geth in Mass Effect 1, and the Collectors abducting human colonies in Mass Effect 2. While Mass Effect 2 may be a sequel, it is not a very good sequel. I do admit, while I think the game is great, the plot of Mass Effect 2 is bland - but so was the plot of Mass Effect 1. 

Now you might argue, and I would probably agree, that Mass Effect 2 does a poor job of developing the plot. This is true; we learn little about the Reapers and their motivations in Mass Effect 2 other than their insatiable need to destroy all life in the galaxy (Which is hardly an original motivation). This does not change the fact that Mass Effect 2 clearly attempts to continue the storyline that began in Mass Effect 1. I have read a lot of your posts, and you seem very intelligent, but I cannot understand for the life of me while you are arguing semantics in a vein hope of proving that Mass Effect 2 is not a sequel, when the number after the title should be all the evidence you need.

[smudboy]

Kijin wrote...

The plot in ME1 was sparse?  That's great.

The plot in ME2 rebooted that and then committed suicide.

The only similarties from ME2 and ME1 were some characters, names and places.

A sequel is a story that contiues another story.  It is not "by virtue" of another story.  It IS that story.  It is "sequential." And by story, I mean the continuation of what came before, not simply having the same characters.  This is not Star Trek, or some TV program, where characters A through F fight Monster of the Week.  There is an overarching plot that involves Stopping the Reapers, not Shepard's Mystical Side-Road Trip and Friends.

[Kijin]

smudboy wrote...

Kijin wrote...

The plot in ME1 was sparse?  That's great.

The plot in ME2 rebooted that and then committed suicide.

The only similarties from ME2 and ME1 were some characters, names and places.

A sequel is a story that contiues another story.  It is not "by virtue" of another story.  It IS that story.  It is "sequential." And by story, I mean the continuation of what came before, not simply having the same characters.  This is not Star Trek, or some TV program, where characters A through F fight Monster of the Week.  There is an overarching plot that involves Stopping the Reapers, not Shepard's Mystical Side-Road Trip and Friends.

You don't seem to understand my argument, so I'll be blunt. As far as I'm concerned, the plots in both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 were fairly awful. I still think both games were great, but the Mass Effect story has always been bland and cliched. 

You don't have to like the story, you don't have to like the game - but it is a sequel. The Reapers attacked in Mass Effect 1. Shepard fought them and won. The Reapers attacked in Mass Effect 2. Shepard fought them and won. Mass Effect 2 is a continuation of what came before. Granted, it may be a poor sequel (Despite being a good game), but it's still a sequel, whether you like it or not. 

In both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, you fought against the Reaper threat. The same characters are fighting against the same threat. Not only that, but the franchise's name has not even changed. Mass Effect 2 was a continuation of Mass Effect 1 - it just so happens that both games had bland stories filled with plotholes. 

And in case anyone is wondering, I do think both games are great (despite my gripes about the story).

[smudboy]

Kijin wrote...
You don't seem to understand my argument, so I'll be blunt. As far as I'm concerned, the plots in both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 were fairly awful. I still think both games were great, but the Mass Effect story has always been bland and cliched. 

Please explain how the plot in ME1 was bad.

You don't have to like the story, you don't have to like the game - but it is a sequel. The Reapers attacked in Mass Effect 1. Shepard fought them and won. The Reapers attacked in Mass Effect 2. Shepard fought them and won. Mass Effect 2 is a continuation of what came before. Granted, it may be a poor sequel (Despite being a good game), but it's still a sequel, whether you like it or not. 

So it's a sequel because the Reapers attacked in ME1, and ME2?  That's your plot summary?

In both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, you fought against the Reaper threat. The same characters are fighting against the same threat. Not only that, but the franchise's name has not even changed. Mass Effect 2 was a continuation of Mass Effect 1 - it just so happens that both games had bland stories filled with plotholes. 

And in case anyone is wondering, I do think both games are great (despite my gripes about the story).

Try this:

http://social.biowar.../index/973813/1

[theelementslayer]

Hey smudboy, you ever going to reply to my post or have you given up and declared that my last post was too hard for you to rebuke?

[Il Divo]

theelementslayer wrote...

Hey smudboy, you ever going to reply to my post or have you given up and declared that my last post was too hard for you to rebuke?

Don't be too proud of yourself. Someone dropping out of an argument because they don't see any point does not somehow mean you've 'won'. It's a pyrrhic victory at best. Hell, I'm on your side and find myself unable to comprehend most of your comments.

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:26 .

[Kijin]

smudboy wrote...

Kijin wrote...
You don't seem to understand my argument, so I'll be blunt. As far as I'm concerned, the plots in both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 were fairly awful. I still think both games were great, but the Mass Effect story has always been bland and cliched. 

Please explain how the plot in ME1 was bad.

You don't have to like the story, you don't have to like the game - but it is a sequel. The Reapers attacked in Mass Effect 1. Shepard fought them and won. The Reapers attacked in Mass Effect 2. Shepard fought them and won. Mass Effect 2 is a continuation of what came before. Granted, it may be a poor sequel (Despite being a good game), but it's still a sequel, whether you like it or not. 

So it's a sequel because the Reapers attacked in ME1, and ME2?  That's your plot summary?

In both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, you fought against the Reaper threat. The same characters are fighting against the same threat. Not only that, but the franchise's name has not even changed. Mass Effect 2 was a continuation of Mass Effect 1 - it just so happens that both games had bland stories filled with plotholes. 

And in case anyone is wondering, I do think both games are great (despite my gripes about the story).

Try this:

http://social.biowar.../index/973813/1

Why do I think the plot in ME1 is bad? I believe I've already indirectly answered this. It brought nothing new to the table. It was simply a cliched space opera. Mass Effect 1 had a similar plot to LoTR, except set in space. If you are looking for some kind of empirical evidence, I'm afraid it's just an opinion. Similarly, this semantical nonsense about Mass Effect 2 not being a true sequel is also just an opinion. It has the same name, it has the same characters, those characters fight against the same enemy - ergo, it's a sequel. 

You wanted to know how it was a continuation. I gave it to you. I could have given you a more detailed explanation, but the sparse details I gave you are proof that it is a continuation. If Mass Effect had starred a different main character, and if that main character had been fighting against a completely different opponent, then it would not have been a sequel. But it's the same man (or a clone, depending on your view) fighting against the Reapers. 

Yes, I do realize my plot synopsis is painfully short. Yes, the plot is more complicated than I have given it credit for in my posts in this thread, but I've played both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 repeatedly, and I have never felt that the story in either game were all that great. If I was inclined, I could write a long, detailed list of my misgivings about the plot in both games, but I don't need to do so, if I'm merely attempting to demonstrate the obvious reality - ME 2 is a sequel. Maybe it does a poor job of continuing the story from the original game, but it still makes the attempt - thus it's a sequel. 

[smudboy]

Kijin wrote...
Why do I think the plot in ME1 is bad? I believe I've already indirectly answered this. It brought nothing new to the table. It was simply a cliched space opera. Mass Effect 1 had a similar plot to LoTR, except set in space. If you are looking for some kind of empirical evidence, I'm afraid it's just an opinion. Similarly, this semantical nonsense about Mass Effect 2 not being a true sequel is also just an opinion. It has the same name, it has the same characters, those characters fight against the same enemy - ergo, it's a sequel.

So you didn't like the plot of ME1 because it's been done before?  Every story that has been told, has already done so.  What, are you expecting some new genre, a new stereotype, new everything?

I don't recall ever seeing any story that is 50% original.  Or even 5% original.  Are you not liking something because it didn't blow your imagination away of storytelling stereotypes and themes?

Might I ask what story does?

You wanted to know how it was a continuation. I gave it to you. I could have given you a more detailed explanation, but the sparse details I gave you are proof that it is a continuation. If Mass Effect had starred a different main character, and if that main character had been fighting against a completely different opponent, then it would not have been a sequel. But it's the same man (or a clone, depending on your view) fighting against the Reapers. 

So your argument is because it has the same protagonist, ergo, sequel?  Additionally if we had a different opposing force/main enemy, then it wouldn't be a sequel?

Yes, I do realize my plot synopsis is painfully short. Yes, the plot is more complicated than I have given it credit for in my posts in this thread, but I've played both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 repeatedly, and I have never felt that the story in either game were all that great. If I was inclined, I could write a long, detailed list of my misgivings about the plot in both games, but I don't need to do so, if I'm merely attempting to demonstrate the obvious reality - ME 2 is a sequel. Maybe it does a poor job of continuing the story from the original game, but it still makes the attempt - thus it's a sequel. 

I'm not arguing that it's the second game BioWare has produced under the Mass Effect brand.  I am arguing that the plot does not connect from the previous installment, because the end result of ME2 puts the scene and conditions in almost exactly the same circumstances at the end of the first, without developing any plot elements from the first.  In fact it throws them out the window by rebooting the series in the first 10 minutes.  This is the first of many errors that turn ME2's plot to kill itself, let alone creating a frame story about multiple side characters that commit 0 to both plots.

Your argument is because both plots are bad, ME2's more so, so it doesn't make any damn difference because they're both crap, so who cares?  Well then, thanks for your opinion.  Please stop replying, I'm not going to learn anything from you, and I'm now no longer interested in explaining things.