Guest_wiggles_*
iakus wrote...
smudboy wrote...
ME2 is the equivalent of reading some fanfic made into a game, or some Elseworld's story, that has nothing to do with anything. Shepard doesn't grow, the Reaper plot doesn't develop, nada.
You're gonna catch a lot of flak with that comparison, but it is uncomfortably accurate.
smudboy wrote...
darth_lopez wrote...
never lost more than 2 crew members never lost joker never lost the normandy compeltely plus it's possible that shep hands the IFF off for duplication if the base is saved.
No, it's ltierally Joker going into the comm room and talking to TIM in place of Shepard. There's no physical "handing off" of hardware. We can only surmize TIM's R&D is ridiculously fast post-IFF installation.
smudboy wrote...
If you get everyone killed and save the base, TIM has no problems sending multiple Cerberus vessels through the Omega-4 relay.
) and reasonably presenting their arguments. The Haters in this thread are the ones who become enraged that we dare to criticize the game at all. When they fail to provide a reasonable objective counter to the points we make they simply devolve into hurling petty personal insults about how stupid we are, and how we should just shut up and go away.
darth_lopez wrote...
iakus wrote...
smudboy wrote...
ME2 is the equivalent of reading some fanfic made into a game, or some Elseworld's story, that has nothing to do with anything. Shepard doesn't grow, the Reaper plot doesn't develop, nada.
You're gonna catch a lot of flak with that comparison, but it is uncomfortably accurate.
accurate or not still a sequel my friend. but i'm pretty sure you also realize it is a sequel.
darth_lopez wrote...
Nightwriter wrote...
I miss all the good arguments.
So is it possible to disagree with the direction they took ME2 and still not be a "hater"?
oh yes just so long as it's established it is in fact a sequel
Modifié par Nightwriter, 21 juillet 2010 - 12:57 .
wiggles89 wrote...
iakus wrote...
smudboy wrote...
ME2 is the equivalent of reading some fanfic made into a game, or some Elseworld's story, that has nothing to do with anything. Shepard doesn't grow, the Reaper plot doesn't develop, nada.
You're gonna catch a lot of flak with that comparison, but it is uncomfortably accurate.
Will he catch more flak from people who think ME2's story is the best thing ever in the history of ever or from those who think their fanfic is serious business?
darth_lopez wrote...
well are you saying that ME 2 isn't a sequel? no there is a difference to disliking the plot and claiming that the story doesn't continue at all when it clearly does poorly executed or not. but it would suck if the previous installments didn't make sense with the 3rd :/ any who time to put the thread back on topic
why did you like about number 2 or number 1s story? and what set them apart? what did you dislike in 2 incomparrison to 1 and the other things the OP said?
Terraneaux wrote...
smudboy wrote...
If you get everyone killed and save the base, TIM has no problems sending multiple Cerberus vessels through the Omega-4 relay.
Which is a huge plot hole. If TIM could send people through the relay, why did he need you to go get the reaper IFF? You'll notice the writers went to great lengths to try to portray TIM as omnicompetent at everything, begging the question of why Shepard is involved in the story, but hey.
darth_lopez wrote...
they had the Reaper IFF installed on the Normandy TIM doesn't have it. for some reason TIM seems to overlook he needs Reaper IFFs for entry. and that the normandy is the only ship with an integrated one. Shep could go freely between collector base and Omega and the rest of the galaxy. unless it had a fail safe that shut down the Relay (in which case why did ship even get out of the relay?) upon destruction of the facility. he could have contacted the alliance if they included the option.cerberus can try as they like to get by with out the Reaper IFF they'll end up missing like everyone else.
though a possible reason why he didn't do that is because it would be very dangerous to send other ships thorugh the relay due to the sheer amount of debris we see and other various 'threats' that could be present inside the debris field.
squee913 wrote...
darth_lopez wrote...
they had the Reaper IFF installed on the Normandy TIM doesn't have it. for some reason TIM seems to overlook he needs Reaper IFFs for entry. and that the normandy is the only ship with an integrated one. Shep could go freely between collector base and Omega and the rest of the galaxy. unless it had a fail safe that shut down the Relay (in which case why did ship even get out of the relay?) upon destruction of the facility. he could have contacted the alliance if they included the option.cerberus can try as they like to get by with out the Reaper IFF they'll end up missing like everyone else.
though a possible reason why he didn't do that is because it would be very dangerous to send other ships thorugh the relay due to the sheer amount of debris we see and other various 'threats' that could be present inside the debris field.
It is not hard to think that TIM copied the IFF in some way. I do not think he would have sent the Normandy through without retaining the ability to go through. This is also shown when you keep the base. As soon as TIM finishes talking to shep, he watches several Cerberus ships arrive at the collector base (with a creepy smile I might add). This means that TIM had the ability to send multiple ships through without the IFF that was still aboard Normandy
And for everyone who says shepard did not grow, that’s your own fault. It is your Shepard. You make the choices. If you wanted Shep could grow from a Cerberus hater to a man/woman that understand they may not be as bad as you think. He could change his view on the genophage. He could change in a lot of ways if you make him.
squee913 wrote...
And for everyone who says shepard did not grow, that’s your own fault. It is your Shepard. You make the choices. If you wanted Shep could grow from a Cerberus hater to a man/woman that understand they may not be as bad as you think. He could change his view on the genophage. He could change in a lot of ways if you make him.
smudboy wrote...
Yes, we can make choices. Choices, however, do not imply growth. To grow, a character needs to have an idea or opinion to start, then have that opinion tested or changed through a conflict of sorts. It is their qualities of a character that are tested, as well as their opinions and ideologies, whether they fight or take flight. It is implied growth (like Akuze), that Shepard went through a traumatic experience, when he/she even comments on this (a la Miranda/Jacob Interview.)
Choosing to romance someone, buying a toy ship, helping or hurting people, arguing with Mordin about experiments, these do not change Shepard one way or the other. Shepard remains a static and flat character. In order to change, Shepard first needs to have a standard opinion or ideology on something, and then have that belief tested. The best we can say of character development for Shepard is implied, through the psychological and military profile (war hero or ruthless), and choosing the opposite of that; but even this is not character development. It's simply how they are using Shepard: being static, they're not made to change, and the choices do not challenge them in a way to be changed. There is a reason Hale and Meer consistently give those flat lines, and there's great outcry when Hale starts acting Renegade, and Meer starts acting Paragon (only less so.)
Actually Squee's right. you determine how shepard grows. in the Mirianda Jacob interview, ther's an option wereh you ask "2 years" and Shepard regradless of voice actor sounds devistated once they realize how long they've been gone. You can frown on what Mordin did by updating the Genophage, give Jack ashoulder to cry on, or give her a bigger middle finger than she gives you, same goes for Miranda. the development is REALLY apparent if you talk to Jacob enough, he gives your shepard a chance to vent and you can talk about how you have survivors guilt (for whoever you virmire'd) feel the pressure of the galaxy's survival being placed on your shoulder and I forget the third option where your Sheaprd gets to vent about but it's there. Oh and how you react to Liaras changing, your encounter witht eVirmire survivor, and Wrex. It's there, you're just not seeing it.smudboy wrote...
squee913 wrote...
And for everyone who says shepard did not grow, that’s your own fault. It is your Shepard. You make the choices. If you wanted Shep could grow from a Cerberus hater to a man/woman that understand they may not be as bad as you think. He could change his view on the genophage. He could change in a lot of ways if you make him.
Yes, we can make choices. Choices, however, do not imply growth. To grow, a character needs to have an idea or opinion to start, then have that opinion tested or changed through a conflict of sorts. It is their qualities of a character that are tested, as well as their opinions and ideologies, whether they fight or take flight. It is implied growth (like Akuze), that Shepard went through a traumatic experience, when he/she even comments on this (a la Miranda/Jacob Interview.)
Choosing to romance someone, buying a toy ship, helping or hurting people, arguing with Mordin about experiments, these do not change Shepard one way or the other. Shepard remains a static and flat character. In order to change, Shepard first needs to have a standard opinion or ideology on something, and then have that belief tested. The best we can say of character development for Shepard is implied, through the psychological and military profile (war hero or ruthless), and choosing the opposite of that; but even this is not character development. It's simply how they are using Shepard: being static, they're not made to change, and the choices do not challenge them in a way to be changed. There is a reason Hale and Meer consistently give those flat lines, and there's great outcry when Hale starts acting Renegade, and Meer starts acting Paragon (only less so.)
ADLegend21 wrote...
Actually Squee's right. you determine how shepard grows. in the Mirianda Jacob interview, ther's an option wereh you ask "2 years" and Shepard regradless of voice actor sounds devistated once they realize how long they've been gone. You can frown on what Mordin did by updating the Genophage, give Jack ashoulder to cry on, or give her a bigger middle finger than she gives you, same goes for Miranda. the development is REALLY apparent if you talk to Jacob enough, he gives your shepard a chance to vent and you can talk about how you have survivors guilt (for whoever you virmire'd) feel the pressure of the galaxy's survival being placed on your shoulder and I forget the third option where your Sheaprd gets to vent about but it's there. Oh and how you react to Liaras changing, your encounter witht eVirmire survivor, and Wrex. It's there, you're just not seeing it.
smudboy wrote...
Shepard expressing emotion is not character growth. It can show qualities they already possess, but if nothing is being challenged, and if Shepard is not forced to change as a result of that challenge, then there's no growth. Now they could've had character growth, if suddenly Shepard's attitude or personality changed at that realization. Shepard could have a conniption, faint, go into a blind rage: not character growth.
Shepard accepts the fact that they'd been killed rather quickly and easily. Actually, everyone in the story has, or didn't seem to care.
What development am I missing? Please provide examples where Shepard is faced with a challenge where they are forced to grow.
Modifié par FlyinElk212, 21 juillet 2010 - 03:44 .
It can be a growth, one thing i do on some ME1 imports is make them a pure paragon or renegade in the first game, then have them pull a 180 in Me2. Pure paragons get pissed off that they got killed and blow **** up and shoot people on a whim, Pure renegades see it as a "oh calm down shepard" and start being good with their second chance.smudboy wrote...
ADLegend21 wrote...
Actually Squee's right. you determine how shepard grows. in the Mirianda Jacob interview, ther's an option wereh you ask "2 years" and Shepard regradless of voice actor sounds devistated once they realize how long they've been gone. You can frown on what Mordin did by updating the Genophage, give Jack ashoulder to cry on, or give her a bigger middle finger than she gives you, same goes for Miranda. the development is REALLY apparent if you talk to Jacob enough, he gives your shepard a chance to vent and you can talk about how you have survivors guilt (for whoever you virmire'd) feel the pressure of the galaxy's survival being placed on your shoulder and I forget the third option where your Sheaprd gets to vent about but it's there. Oh and how you react to Liaras changing, your encounter witht eVirmire survivor, and Wrex. It's there, you're just not seeing it.
Shepard expressing emotion is not character growth. It can show qualities they already possess, but if nothing is being challenged, and if Shepard is not forced to change as a result of that challenge, then there's no growth. Now they could've had character growth, if suddenly Shepard's attitude or personality changed at that realization. Shepard could have a conniption, faint, go into a blind rage: not character growth.
Shepard accepts the fact that they'd been killed rather quickly and easily. Actually, everyone in the story has, or didn't seem to care.
What development am I missing? Please provide examples where Shepard is faced with a challenge where they are forced to grow.
smudboy wrote...
Terraneaux wrote...
smudboy wrote...
If you get everyone killed and save the base, TIM has no problems sending multiple Cerberus vessels through the Omega-4 relay.
Which is a huge plot hole. If TIM could send people through the relay, why did he need you to go get the reaper IFF? You'll notice the writers went to great lengths to try to portray TIM as omnicompetent at everything, begging the question of why Shepard is involved in the story, but hey.
I can only guess he's got some direct connection to the Normandy/EDI, and can easily replicate Reaper tech at the drop of a hat. I mean the IFF isn't anything fantastically complex, just some algorithms to account for drift, especially since it was finished "baking" at that point. Thus the actually IFF hardware isn't anything special. The question is how are those ships compatible with it, considering the Normandy "lit up like a Christmas tree", and it apparently has one hell of a drive core.
Essentially. ME1 didn't really give us anything through provided plenty to work with, and ME2 did nothing with it. I can't see ME3 being any different.FlyinElk212 wrote...
It's a little difficult to ask Bioware to make Shepard grow as a character when the player's the one making most of his decisions. Now by character growth, I believe you mean growth from a sense of purpose, or a sense of what he is throughout the game, right?
Throughout the game Shepard's really just, "Badass this, badass that", "I can do whatever the hell I want as long as I'm Paragon enough!"; no real sense of change within his outlook on the galaxy, on his predicament, or on himself. To that extent, I agree with you.
But in Bioware's defense, they're trying to simulate Shepard's character arc simply through personality choices given to players throughout the game. In this sense, Bioware gives the players the responsibility to see if Shepard's PERSONALITY grows (not HIMSELF growing), in order to ease the player choices into a coherent storyline.
Now if only they had a coherent storyline...
ADLegend21 wrote...
Actually Squee's right. you determine how shepard grows.smudboy wrote...
squee913 wrote...
And for everyone who says shepard did not grow, that’s your own fault. It is your Shepard. You make the choices. If you wanted Shep could grow from a Cerberus hater to a man/woman that understand they may not be as bad as you think. He could change his view on the genophage. He could change in a lot of ways if you make him.
Yes, we can make choices. Choices, however, do not imply growth. To grow, a character needs to have an idea or opinion to start, then have that opinion tested or changed through a conflict of sorts. It is their qualities of a character that are tested, as well as their opinions and ideologies, whether they fight or take flight. It is implied growth (like Akuze), that Shepard went through a traumatic experience, when he/she even comments on this (a la Miranda/Jacob Interview.)
Choosing to romance someone, buying a toy ship, helping or hurting people, arguing with Mordin about experiments, these do not change Shepard one way or the other. Shepard remains a static and flat character. In order to change, Shepard first needs to have a standard opinion or ideology on something, and then have that belief tested. The best we can say of character development for Shepard is implied, through the psychological and military profile (war hero or ruthless), and choosing the opposite of that; but even this is not character development. It's simply how they are using Shepard: being static, they're not made to change, and the choices do not challenge them in a way to be changed. There is a reason Hale and Meer consistently give those flat lines, and there's great outcry when Hale starts acting Renegade, and Meer starts acting Paragon (only less so.)
Modifié par darth_lopez, 21 juillet 2010 - 04:31 .
smudboy wrote...
Essentially. ME1 didn't really give us anything through provided plenty to work with, and ME2 did nothing with it. I can't see ME3 being any different.
But they have made crazy opportunity for it. Akuze, being resurrected, loss or even guilt over Ash/Kaidan, frustration over people not listening to them, all the types of romances, working with the enemy, etc. Choices can be made, but the choices in ME are static, and forgettable, and don't reflect the main plot, or whatever plot there is. They don't have any consequences to allow Shepard to grow (breaking up with someone, liking/disliking Cerberus, let alone being able to leave Cerberus.) If there are no consequences to those actions, and Shepard doesn't care, then who really cares? Certainly not the viewer.
Growth can come in many forms, but it must always be an internal struggle, amidst the main external conflict, of saving the galaxy. The clichéd choice of lover over goal is probably going to creep it's ugly head, but maybe they'll do it right. But if sacrifice involves Shepard actually growing as a character, hell, I'll take an overused tragedy anytime.
The best form of growth they could've shown would've been the Paragon/Renegade path. The problem is that growth must reflect the main plot, so that we can understand the internal/external implications, because that's why we have a protagonist. So that those P/R choices make sense, and the analog scale for being P/R is properly represented, as the story goes, the more P/R those choices need to be (which made sense with their forced P/R choice scheme.) But there's no real difference in outcomes on varying events, since recruitment/loyalty could be done in almost any order. Thus, it'd followed on the main plot points to do so: but the only mandatory main plot choices were Legion and saving/destroying the base.
Modifié par FlyinElk212, 21 juillet 2010 - 04:43 .
I don't mind if you pick on me. I don't even mind if you prove me wrong, that's why I debate these things. But for pity's sake, at least read my post before you do it. What do I base this on? did you compltly skip the part where I said, "This is also shown when you keep the base. As soon as TIM finishes talking to shep, he watches several Cerberus ships arrive at the collector base (with a creepy smile I might add)." This conversation happened right after the suicide mission. There would have been no time for the IFF to be loaded onto another ship, so it stands to reason that TIM got the data from the IFF and used it to send SEVERAL ships through the omega 4 relay very quickly after the base was taken. Proving that TIM had the ability to go through the omega 4 relay and claim the base before you could do much about it. Hence my statement that if you did not destroy it, TIM gets it.Delta_Echo wrote...
squee913 wrote...
darth_lopez wrote...
they had the Reaper IFF installed on the Normandy TIM doesn't have it. for some reason TIM seems to overlook he needs Reaper IFFs for entry. and that the normandy is the only ship with an integrated one. Shep could go freely between collector base and Omega and the rest of the galaxy. unless it had a fail safe that shut down the Relay (in which case why did ship even get out of the relay?) upon destruction of the facility. he could have contacted the alliance if they included the option.cerberus can try as they like to get by with out the Reaper IFF they'll end up missing like everyone else.
though a possible reason why he didn't do that is because it would be very dangerous to send other ships thorugh the relay due to the sheer amount of debris we see and other various 'threats' that could be present inside the debris field.
It is not hard to think that TIM copied the IFF in some way. I do not think he would have sent the Normandy through without retaining the ability to go through. This is also shown when you keep the base. As soon as TIM finishes talking to shep, he watches several Cerberus ships arrive at the collector base (with a creepy smile I might add). This means that TIM had the ability to send multiple ships through without the IFF that was still aboard Normandy
And for everyone who says shepard did not grow, that’s your own fault. It is your Shepard. You make the choices. If you wanted Shep could grow from a Cerberus hater to a man/woman that understand they may not be as bad as you think. He could change his view on the genophage. He could change in a lot of ways if you make him.
Not to pick on you personally squee913, but this is rather typical type of answer when ever one brings up a plot hole or continuity disconnect.
"It could've been this..." Is almost always the answer when one of us jerks brings up a plot hole. What exactly are your basing this on? It doesn't fit so you ( not just you but I hope you get my meaning) speculate an answer to our question, and expect it to be accepted or just hand wave it and say " its not important". Details matter in good story telling. And all the flash bang gee wiz in the world won't keep me immersed and distracted when the building blocks of the narrative don't fit together.
Modifié par squee913, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:59 .
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