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#476
darth_lopez

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Mister Mida wrote...

Darth Lopez, the deleted scene of Grievous killing Shaak Ti is not canon. It was an earlier version of the scene of Anakin and Obi-wan fighting Grievous' bodyguards on the ship's bridge after killing Dooku.


i figured as much though she is captured by grievous in the last episode of the original Clone Wars mini series where we also see mace windu crush Grievous' lung and  give birth to wizzy grievous or have they decided to kill star wars further by making the original 20 episode Clone Wars miniseries completely non-cannon to? 

#477
Iakus

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RiouHotaru wrote...

...Cheap gimmick as opposed to what? Shepard fell into a planet and smashed into the surface, and was left there for whatever length of time until the Blue Suns found him/her and scooped up the remains into a stasis pod.

Exactly HOW do you proceed from there? Or is that you would've preferred a different reset button? Also, you have to consider that a reset button, from a gameplay standpoint was necessary due to just how different the game systems are between ME1 and ME2. They are essentially two completely different games, and therefore some significant changes had to be made.

To facilitate this change, they implimented a reset button that worked within the plot, and in fact, SET UP the plot for the game. I suppose I don't understand how this was a failure of any kind.


The entire destruction of the Normandy and Shepard's extremely thorough death, only to be revived two years later is, in it's entirety, the "cheap gimmick"  If a reset button was in fact needed (which I question)  Something a little less over-the-top could certainly have been done.  Shepard being out of contact on the fringes of known space, Shepard as a prisoner somewhere, Shepard recovering from debilitating injuries,  I fail to see how Shepard being dead (and extremely dead at that)  for two years improved either the story or gameplay.

#478
Iakus

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darth_lopez wrote...

don't get me wrong i never said i wasn't cheap or unacceptable i was simply saying that the argument 




Death is the ultimate consequence for just about everybody real and fictional


under scrutiny in any real sci-fi universe, or even most fantasies, falls short. and mass effect did do a better job explaning it than Halo you gotta give me that XD that was simply luck and it should be noted that chief's life signs did bottom out to zero >.>

my personal opinion of the matter of shepards revival is that it was a cop out and i wasn't too fond of it i'm still not too fond of it. 


Well, at least we can agree it was a cop-out.

But I do hold that there are different degrees of plausibility in science fiction universes.  Mass Effect is a far cry from "hard sf"  but it did make things try to seem possible.  It had it's own internal logic which added to, rather than replaced the laws of reality.  This elevated it  above Star Wars and many other "space fantasy" stories.  ME 2 put it far closer to that level, which is part of what makes it such a jarring change from 1 to 2 (among many other things)

Modifié par iakus, 22 juillet 2010 - 08:32 .


#479
Mister Mida

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darth_lopez wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Darth Lopez, the deleted scene of Grievous killing Shaak Ti is not canon. It was an earlier version of the scene of Anakin and Obi-wan fighting Grievous' bodyguards on the ship's bridge after killing Dooku.


i figured as much though she is captured by grievous in the last episode of the original Clone Wars mini series where we also see mace windu crush Grievous' lung and  give birth to wizzy grievous or have they decided to kill star wars further by making the original 20 episode Clone Wars miniseries completely non-cannon to? 

*shrugs* I don't know. Maybe she escaped the ship off screen.

#480
smudboy

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darth_lopez wrote...


smudboy wrote...

There is no Resurrection Machine.  No Unobtainium compound.  No Mass Effect fields.  No device of any sort.  No team of scientists specialized in anything we're told they could be specialists in.  No personificatio nof Mr. Resurrection.  No clear understanding of how Shepard died, how they were stored, and how they were brought back.  Whereas ME fields make mass higher or lower, restoring a human body from unexplained and ridiculously impossible conditions after several years is farcical.  All we get are glowing clamps that attach to Shepard's body in a matter of seconds in a quick cutscene, blue mystery fluid, robotic surgical arms cutting something, for an operation that took 2 years, and a medical head who can't believe Shepard's alive.  We get useless if not incorrect audio logs.  We get a building of people being killed by mechs.  We get a stupid if not illogical plot to kill these people, just to introduce a character and grant a tutorial.  It is so unbelievably stupid, marginally intelligent 9 year olds would hang their head in shame.


now that i actually went back and read a little more (something smud should do more often)

do you have to see a plot device to be there?


no you don't they exist deal with it plus we did see the scientists we saw the workers we saw them die. we saw pieces of the machinery. and we saw the facility get destroyed what more do you need?

do we need to see the entire process of Krogan cloning to know it exists?

though on a side note the words marginally intelligent smud still imply retardation. wich is still no suprise that retards would not understand the mass effect universe i hold to that.

and i hold to the point that realistically unobtanium may be discovered. 

i will also point out this kind of research is illegal inside citadel space that is why it hasn't been done yet.



#481
darth_lopez

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iakus wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

don't get me wrong i never said i wasn't cheap or unacceptable i was simply saying that the argument 



Death is the ultimate consequence for just about everybody real and fictional


under scrutiny in any real sci-fi universe, or even most fantasies, falls short. and mass effect did do a better job explaning it than Halo you gotta give me that XD that was simply luck and it should be noted that chief's life signs did bottom out to zero >.>

my personal opinion of the matter of shepards revival is that it was a cop out and i wasn't too fond of it i'm still not too fond of it. 


Well, at least we can agree it was a cop-out.

But I do hold that there are different degrees of plausibility in science fiction universes.  Mass Effect is a far cry from "hard sf"  but it did make things try to seem possible.  It had it's own internal logic which added to, rather than replaced the laws of reality.  This elevated it  above Star Wars and many other "space fantasy" stories.  ME 2 put it far closer to that level, which is part of what makes it such a jarring change from 1 to 2 (among many other things)


agreed ME 2 was different from ME 1 and portrayed itself in a slightly different light  though i wouldn't say it brought its self down to an 'overly fictional universe' level per sey if that makes sense. the stuff in  ME 2 while it pushed at times mass effects own limitations i wouldn't say it absolutely broke anything in the universe at least if you read codex entries. while it was on it's own a step down from ME 1 i'd say overall it added to the ME story in an interesting way. 

i can definately agree on a jarring change between ME 1s style and ME 2s.

out fo curiousity you and i are also on the same page in regards to ME 2 being a sequel to ME 1 i'm not sure i saw your opinion of that?

and getting back on shepards death i was under the impression it Took to years to revive him not necessarily that he was found 2 years later and revived instantly? granted i don't have nor have i read the comic.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 22 juillet 2010 - 09:42 .


#482
darth_lopez

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Mister Mida wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Darth Lopez, the deleted scene of Grievous killing Shaak Ti is not canon. It was an earlier version of the scene of Anakin and Obi-wan fighting Grievous' bodyguards on the ship's bridge after killing Dooku.


i figured as much though she is captured by grievous in the last episode of the original Clone Wars mini series where we also see mace windu crush Grievous' lung and  give birth to wizzy grievous or have they decided to kill star wars further by making the original 20 episode Clone Wars miniseries completely non-cannon to? 

*shrugs* I don't know. Maybe she escaped the ship off screen.


works well enough for me  all i know is George's 'new clone wars' is quickly killing the franchise for me. he's already invalidate 750 years of mandalorian history why not say 20 small 5 minute episodes don't exist ah well thank you for confirming that.

#483
Iakus

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darth_lopez wrote...

agreed ME 2 was different from ME 1 and portrayed itself in a slightly different light  though i wouldn't say it brought its self down to an 'overly fictional universe' level per sey if that makes sense. the stuff in  ME 2 while it pushed at times mass effects own limitations i wouldn't say it absolutely broke anything in the universe at least if you read codex entries. while it was on it's own a step down from ME 1 i'd say overall it added to the ME story in an interesting way. 


I'd call being able to revive anyone who's been dead for two years, subjected to absolute zero temperatures (or close to it), long-term exposure to vacuum, no to mention planetary impact, stretches the bounds of any plausible science fiction story.  Heck any one of those would be stretching it.

Also quite often we see members of the party wearing just breathing masks in hostile enviroment.  Exposed skin in vacuum, toxic atmospheres, or extreme heat or cold=not healthy.

In fact, not wearing armor in combat  at all strikes me as odd.  Sure the armor in ME 1 was ugly, but is spandex really all that better?  I'd rather go into combat dressed as one of the Colonial Space Marines in Aliens than a member of Starfleet (or as one of Jabba the Hutt's dancers)

I'm sure I'll come up with more, but I'm pressed for time atm

i can definately agree on a jarring change between ME 1s style and ME 2s.

out fo curiousity you and i are also on the same page in regards to ME 2 being a sequel to ME 1 i'm not sure i saw your opinion of that?


I did agree that ME 2 was a sequel.  It is a bad sequel. Matrix Reloaded bad.  Less Empire Strikes back and more Attack of the Clones.

and getting back on shepards death i was under the impression it Took to years to revive him not necessarily that he was found 2 years later and revived instantly? granted i don't have nor have i read the comic.


I have not read the comics either.  It may not have taken a full two years, but people were definitely surprised to see Shep up and about during the attack at the Lazarus Research Station base.  If he had been revived, it could not have been too long beforehand

#484
MassEffect762

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Yeah that Matrix Reloaded comparison sounds about right.(both left me thinking what the heck happened)

Bioware is either saving the best for last or was too busy/focused on the many differences between the first and second game to "connect" properly.

Had Bioware executed the plot with flying colors complaints would probably be cut significantly.

For me it goes like this:

-Mediocre story/bad plot execution.

-Watered down RPG elements.

-Combat is not anything to brag about.(the bad nulifies the good)

All subjective of course I'm sure you all have different opinions, all equally mute.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 22 juillet 2010 - 11:26 .


#485
InvaderErl

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The Reloaded comparison doesn't work. When Reloaded came out the only people defending it were purists, most people knew they had a stinker on their hands. Mass Effect 2 is largely well liked, especially once you step out of these forums (and generally even the polls here bear most people here actually liked Mass Effect 2).

For me the comparison that makes more sense is that Mass Effect's Star Trek the Motion Picture to Mass Effect 2's Wrath of Khan. Some purists will hang onto TMP to their dying breath yelling WoK was dumbed down and a betrayal of TOS by becoming a "dumb action movie" but Wrath of Khan's emotional punch and heart can't be beat and yes I've always felt that ME2 actually had more personality and spirit to it than the first save for Vimire and the end game.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 22 juillet 2010 - 11:34 .


#486
darth_lopez

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iakus wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

agreed ME 2 was different from ME 1 and portrayed itself in a slightly different light  though i wouldn't say it brought its self down to an 'overly fictional universe' level per sey if that makes sense. the stuff in  ME 2 while it pushed at times mass effects own limitations i wouldn't say it absolutely broke anything in the universe at least if you read codex entries. while it was on it's own a step down from ME 1 i'd say overall it added to the ME story in an interesting way. 


I'd call being able to revive anyone who's been dead for two years, subjected to absolute zero temperatures (or close to it), long-term exposure to vacuum, no to mention planetary impact, stretches the bounds of any plausible science fiction story.  Heck any one of those would be stretching it.

Also quite often we see members of the party wearing just breathing masks in hostile enviroment.  Exposed skin in vacuum, toxic atmospheres, or extreme heat or cold=not healthy.


was he exposed to eezo? but yeah when put that way >.> i have no choice but to agree. with one exception star wars revives i think have been at least equal to this. or close (the first that comes to mind is the apprentices entire death sequence)

In fact, not wearing armor in combat  at all strikes me as odd.  Sure the armor in ME 1 was ugly, but is spandex really all that better?  I'd rather go into combat dressed as one of the Colonial Space Marines in Aliens than a member of Starfleet (or as one of Jabba the Hutt's dancers)

I'm sure I'll come up with more, but I'm pressed for time atm

i can definately agree on a jarring change between ME 1s style and ME 2s.

out fo curiousity you and i are also on the same page in regards to ME 2 being a sequel to ME 1 i'm not sure i saw your opinion of that?


I did agree that ME 2 was a sequel.  It is a bad sequel. Matrix Reloaded bad.  Less Empire Strikes back and more Attack of the Clones.


i can agree on the armor point and i'm an easily pleased individual so i few qualms with the ME 2 plot overall very few qualms. but the armor is definately something that ticked me off. and it has been shown certain characters don't acquire better suiting when necessary? (i've never actually used samara anywhere that could apply nor have i used jack or miranda.) jacob looks like he's wearing light armor though as does mordin. Mordin however does have a visor on applicable missions as does Garrus that i can garuntee not too sure about the others unfortunately as i use Tali Garrus and Mordin almost exclusively.

but i can see how it is bad to some people and you are indeed making me rethink my position on it's quality. but i've never been a fan of the matrix nor have i seen the matrix reloaded. so i'd not be able to compare.

however i can agree with the AoC evaluation.

my previous TESB comparisson was more or less me trying to give an example of a sequel and how it relates to it's respective prequel comparrison was a poor choice of word. ME 2 was no Ep V and ME 1 is no ep IV  the ME series falls short of Star Wars Epic i would say at least at the moment.

and getting back on shepards death i was under the impression it Took to years to revive him not necessarily that he was found 2 years later and revived instantly? granted i don't have nor have i read the comic.


I have not read the comics either.  It may not have taken a full two years, but people were definitely surprised to see Shep up and about during the attack at the Lazarus Research Station base.  If he had been revived, it could not have been too long beforehand

very good point

#487
darth_lopez

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InvaderErl wrote...
 yes I've always felt that ME2 actually had more personality and spirit to it than the first save for Vimire and the end game.


i can agree with this sentiment entirely.

#488
Guest_Brodyaha_*

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 I personally enjoyed the story, I thought it was creative to bring Shepard back to life and have her working with Cerberus. Perhaps many game characters didn't acknowledge exactly as people wanted in ME2, but ME3 still has to arrive. LI#1 has to have a long talk with Shepard and his/her work with Cerberus. Shepard is not the kind of character to wallow in self-pity, as outlined by the psychological profiles and background history in ME1. His/her personality is essentially the same as it was before dying.

Can people be brought back to life from the dead in 2185? Well, in the past couple of years humanity has had the advent of face transplants (complete with tear ducts), the Berlin Heart, and biotic limbs. Who knows? It's a story. It's fiction. Better to have Shepard die in ME1, at the end? Who knows. ME2 was still a very engaging game. Some odd parts here and there that might not seem relavant to gamers? Sure, happens in every story, and depends on the person. Thought the story was great, the characters better.

Story makes much more sense than LotR upon reflection; LotR has ONE HUGE PLOTHOLE:

And the whole trilogy is about throwing a piece of jewellry into a volcano.

But everyone still fell in love with the characters and the story, and there were other forces and conflicts in the universe of MiddleEarth other than having to destroy the One Ring.

#489
Iakus

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InvaderErl wrote...

The Reloaded comparison doesn't work. When Reloaded came out the only people defending it were purists, most people knew they had a stinker on their hands. Mass Effect 2 is largely well liked, especially once you step out of these forums (and generally even the polls here bear most people here actually liked Mass Effect 2).


I am of course, only stating my opinion.  But to me, ME 2 sacrificed the big epic feel of a space opera, not to mention the grand plot to "Stop the Reapers" for what amounts to a big budget special effects extravaganza.  by the end of ME 1, htings were definitely proceeding in a particular direction.  If Bioware wanted to change that direction, that's fine. But ease into it.   mke it logical.  The violent shift in direction of the plot, narrative, even continuity in some places leaves me to wonder who was minding the store when the outline was written.

For me the comparison that makes more sense is that Mass Effect's Star Trek the Motion Picture to Mass Effect 2's Wrath of Khan. Some purists will hang onto TMP to their dying breath yelling WoK was dumbed down and a betrayal of TOS by becoming a "dumb action movie" but Wrath of Khan's emotional punch and heart can't be beat and yes I've always felt that ME2 actually had more personality and spirit to it than the first save for Vimire and the end game.



I may need to qualify my statement.  I don't hate everything about ME2.  There is good stuff to be found in there.  Some of the loyalty missions were well done.  A couple could have been games in their own right that I would have purchased. 

For example:  Interrupt system I liked, has real potential

Tali's loyalty mission was exceptionally well done.

Thane's was good too

Mordin's raised some good questions between bouts of gunfire.

Suicide mission was a good start.  Could have been done much better.  But not bad.

The problem is most of the content doesn't fit as a sequel to Mass Effect 1.  It jsut doesn't feel like "Mass Effect 2".  It feels like bits and pieces of a several games set in the Mass Effect universe duct-taped together with corridors full of trigger-happy mercs.  Things are not explained that should have been.  Behavior of several characters is inexplicably bizarre.  Consequences for past actions are minimal at best.  Shepard himself is too passive a character, not given enough chances to really be proactive.  Mass Effect one you feel more in control.  Not of the situation, but of Shepard him/herself.

With some rewrites and a bit more more material you could unravel ME 2 into three or four decent games.  but as it stands now, ugh. 

Oh, and first sight of the Citadel, way more emotional impact than seeing the Normandy 2 for the first time.  Just saying  Image IPB

#490
Iakus

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darth_lopez wrote...

i can agree on the armor point and i'm an easily pleased individual so i few qualms with the ME 2 plot overall very few qualms. but the armor is definately something that ticked me off. and it has been shown certain characters don't acquire better suiting when necessary? (i've never actually used samara anywhere that could apply nor have i used jack or miranda.) jacob looks like he's wearing light armor though as does mordin. Mordin however does have a visor on applicable missions as does Garrus that i can garuntee not too sure about the others unfortunately as i use Tali Garrus and Mordin almost exclusively.


Samara is a 1000 year old Justicar who apparantly has never learned how to operate a zipper. Unless her top is meant to distract her male opponents?  Jack at the Migrant Fleet looks like a plague outbreak waiting to happen.  Miranda...how can she even walk?  Anywhere?

The only characters who seems to have reasonably combat-ready outfits are Grunt, Garrus (minus battle damage), Legion (ditto) Zaed (looks more like he's wearing light armor than Jacob does), Tali, and Mordin, to some degree.  Jacob, I'm sorry to say, looks like he's just missing a cape and cowl to be "Cerberus Man, Champion of Humanity!"  Grunt and Garrus are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head to provide a full helmet when needed. (barring Tali of course, and Legion doesn't need one)


my previous TESB comparisson was more or less me trying to give an example of a sequel and how it relates to it's respective prequel comparrison was a poor choice of word. ME 2 was no Ep V and ME 1 is no ep IV  the ME series falls short of Star Wars Epic i would say at least at the moment.


After ME 1, I thought it could achieve that scale of epicness.  At least as far as video games go.  The problem was ME 2 jettisoned pretty much everything that made ME 1 "epic" In favor of smaller, easily packaged stories.  Decent stories, I admit.  But it was never made clear what the ultimate point was.  The Collectors were the "bad guys" for this game, but we hardly got to see them.  We learn a little about them and their Prothean heritage, but what did that accomplish?  Really not much.  We stopped them, but we really don't know what the ultimate point was.  What was the human Reaper in the grand scheme of things?  A Plan B to bring back the Reapers?  A bizzare attempt to understand humans?  A secret weapon of some sort?  A replacement for Sovereign?  At least when you destroy a Death Star you know exactly what you've accomplishedImage IPB

In Episiode 5, like Episode 4, you have troopers all over the place.  You have the Imperial fleet hunting down the rebels, You have Darth Vader, the "face" of the Empire, but a step away from catching the Millenium Falcon.  You have Luke Skywalker, continuing his studies to be a Jedi which Obi-Wan started in the previous film.  You have a clear transition and continuity.  The specific adventures are different, the gang is scattered, but the Big Picture hasn't changed.  In comparison, ME 2 was one long side trip.

#491
darth_lopez

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iakus wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

i can agree on the armor point and i'm an easily pleased individual so i few qualms with the ME 2 plot overall very few qualms. but the armor is definately something that ticked me off. and it has been shown certain characters don't acquire better suiting when necessary? (i've never actually used samara anywhere that could apply nor have i used jack or miranda.) jacob looks like he's wearing light armor though as does mordin. Mordin however does have a visor on applicable missions as does Garrus that i can garuntee not too sure about the others unfortunately as i use Tali Garrus and Mordin almost exclusively.


Samara is a 1000 year old Justicar who apparantly has never learned how to operate a zipper. Unless her top is meant to distract her male opponents?  Jack at the Migrant Fleet looks like a plague outbreak waiting to happen.  Miranda...how can she even walk?  Anywhere?

The only characters who seems to have reasonably combat-ready outfits are Grunt, Garrus (minus battle damage), Legion (ditto) Zaed (looks more like he's wearing light armor than Jacob does), Tali, and Mordin, to some degree.  Jacob, I'm sorry to say, looks like he's just missing a cape and cowl to be "Cerberus Man, Champion of Humanity!"  Grunt and Garrus are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head to provide a full helmet when needed. (barring Tali of course, and Legion doesn't need one)


thank you for informing me the three i never use don't change. And is it sad when you can actually picture Jacob decending into the cargo deck dawning a cape taking the hammerhead dropping planet side on a solo mission and actually calling himself Cerberus Man?  XD cause i am really starting to think we need a good sketch artist to make a comic describing that.

i would still say jacob wears Light ME 1 armor or some type of light armor. i'd place zaeads more at medium human and garrus' i think, i know it's supposed to be tweaked Phantom, but because of the elongated chest spike when we first see him i've always invisioned it more of a heavy armor now >.> while it resembles his original Agent I and Phantom sets it really seems to offer more protection. and i completely forgot about grunt.

i'd also like to point out we both forgot kasumi. i'm not sure if she wears armor it looks like it but have you done her mission? (it was over priced but when it comes to ME i'm a completionist) it's over the top and i'm not to fond of it i only do it for the Locust.


my previous TESB comparisson was more or less me trying to give an example of a sequel and how it relates to it's respective prequel comparrison was a poor choice of word. ME 2 was no Ep V and ME 1 is no ep IV  the ME series falls short of Star Wars Epic i would say at least at the moment.


After ME 1, I thought it could achieve that scale of epicness.  At least as far as video games go.  The problem was ME 2 jettisoned pretty much everything that made ME 1 "epic" In favor of smaller, easily packaged stories.  Decent stories, I admit.  But it was never made clear what the ultimate point was.  The Collectors were the "bad guys" for this game, but we hardly got to see them.  We learn a little about them and their Prothean heritage, but what did that accomplish?  Really not much.  We stopped them, but we really don't know what the ultimate point was.  What was the human Reaper in the grand scheme of things?  A Plan B to bring back the Reapers?  A bizzare attempt to understand humans?  A secret weapon of some sort?  A replacement for Sovereign?  At least when you destroy a Death Star you know exactly what you've accomplishedImage IPB

In Episiode 5, like Episode 4, you have troopers all over the place.  You have the Imperial fleet hunting down the rebels, You have Darth Vader, the "face" of the Empire, but a step away from catching the Millenium Falcon.  You have Luke Skywalker, continuing his studies to be a Jedi which Obi-Wan started in the previous film.  You have a clear transition and continuity.  The specific adventures are different, the gang is scattered, but the Big Picture hasn't changed.  In comparison, ME 2 was one long side trip.


i can agree with all of this 


and in your other post (i'm trying to cut back on my multiposting i do alot of that and it's always bothered some people since the old ME 1 forums @.@ so i'm very consious of it now) where you say that the Citadel was more emotionally engaging than the SR2. i would feel that Awe inspiring would best describe the citadel for me where as i had really come to appreciate my tiny normandy and the jokes a cracked about mounting shifty eyed cow people on the wall above the galaxy map so when my normandy died, that and i'm really into air craft  and sci-fi naval ships more than space stations, i was heart broken because to me the SR1 normandy was a character herself and played a very very crucial role in my ability to traverse the ME 1 galaxy. So for me the SR 2 was like an awesome moment where as the return to the normandy crash site made me pretty sad. poor pressly i enjoyed my 2-20 lines of dialogue with you T-T you will be missed.

though what i really really missed from ME 1 was the Elevators in all honesty. i loved them i'd never seen that done in a game before and i thought it was sweet. plus my team conversed there was radio and the best elevator music i have ever heard.

i know alot of people hated the elevators but they were better than the end mission screen.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 23 juillet 2010 - 05:27 .


#492
Il Divo

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smudboy wrote...
Feigning intelligence I can't.

It can, however point to it's effects.  I can see it do what it's supposed to do.  It makes things move telekinetically.  It has easily observable effects.  It is widely known and various species have this ability.  It is the equivalent of any technology that is part of the mythos of the narrative.  It is common.


So what is your defense precisely? That repetition somehow makes this acceptable? That's a ridiculous standard. Whether I see biotics once or a fifty times, that does not provide me with an explanation for how they work. I can use your same argument to defend the resurrection:
 
It is uncommon. This is clear by the number of people surprised at Shepard's being alive (former squad-mates, Captain Anderson, etc), the clear amount of time and effort in order to achieve the result, and that Jacob tells us is it was done using state of the art technology, ergo this is not something you can do in your backyard. This was not widely known and most species/organizations do not have access to this technology that we know. It is the equivalent of any technology that is brand new to the mythos and not widely circulated.

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 juillet 2010 - 01:19 .


#493
Mangalores

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Brodyaha wrote...

 I personally enjoyed the story, I thought it was creative to bring Shepard back to life and have her working with Cerberus.
....


Lame excuse to kill her off-screen (aka outside your control) just so you can do that. There was really no point in killing the player character. Her falling from grace for rambling on about reapers in public and Cerberus slowly tempting her to join on a mission would have been a far tighter story.

Even if Bioware didn't want to tell that story, killing the main char was a a mere marketing gimmick for the first teaser trailer. I really liked that they implied Shephard died or would die in those teasers... I felt cheated that they simply brought them back for no reason. Icon, symbol, ... that's a hogwash excuse. This is a SciFi universe, a modern state always has more than one top soldier on the shelf and none is irreplaceable. There is zero reason for that whole plot opening. Even worse that it had no meaning for the main plot overall. Which again indicates that it was a gimmick rather that story writing.

Modifié par Mangalores, 23 juillet 2010 - 01:24 .


#494
Mister Mida

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Mangalores wrote...

[Shepard] falling from grace for rambling on about reapers in public and Cerberus slowly tempting her to join on a mission would have been a far tighter story.

Now that would be interesting.

#495
smudboy

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Il Divo wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Feigning intelligence I can't.

It can, however point to it's effects.  I can see it do what it's supposed to do.  It makes things move telekinetically.  It has easily observable effects.  It is widely known and various species have this ability.  It is the equivalent of any technology that is part of the mythos of the narrative.  It is common.


So what is your defense precisely? That repetition somehow makes this acceptable? That's a ridiculous standard. Whether I see biotics once or a fifty times, that does not provide me with an explanation for how they work. I can use your same argument to defend the resurrection:
 
It is uncommon. This is clear by the number of people surprised at Shepard's being alive (former squad-mates, Captain Anderson, etc), the clear amount of time and effort in order to achieve the result, and that Jacob tells us is it was done using state of the art technology, ergo this is not something you can do in your backyard. This was not widely known and most species/organizations do not have access to this technology that we know. It is the equivalent of any technology that is brand new to the mythos and not widely circulated.

There's quite a lot of exposition on Biotics and Element Zero.  There's barely any for Mr. Bombastic Resurrection and the Space Building of Fly Girls.

Let's see, biotics:
1. Has Unobtainium (Element Zero.)
2. Asari have natural biotic talent, and all species seem to possess its ability.
3. A character who explains the first ever human-turian school designed to train human biotics.
4. Various mercenaries and soldiers throughout the galaxy are biotics.
5. Mass effect fields and their attribute to FTL and drive core technology.
6. The game is called Mass Effect.
7. Biotics, Element Zero, Drive Cores, the Mass Relays: these things are explained and common.

Let's see, resurrection:
1a. Has unnamed magical glowy things attached to apparently Commander Shepard's magically recovered corpse.
1b. Has blue mystery fluid.
2. No one seems or has been able to resurrect people before, let alone human resurrection.
3a. We get incorrect audio logs barely describing some techno-jargon, "meat and tubes", impossible circumstances to recover a body let alone an explanation of what happened to Shepard's brain.
3b. Supplementary material (a la comic book) is invalid.
4. Zaeed, a human, survived a bullet ot the face.  Not resurrection.
5. Resurrection is a massive plot hole/device in the space-time-plot-o-stupidsphere, for the purposes of rebooting a plot that didn't need rebooting, to make 2 years go by, and to somehow be part of a terrorist organization.
6. The game is called Mass Effect 2 (note: nothing to do with resurrection)
7. Wilson, Miranda, Jacob, 4 billion credits, a space station, everyone dies: these things are not explained, are extremely unclear and hinders the narrative.

We can accept something because of proper exposition, and it seems to be the norm.  People riding around in flying cars isn't explained, but we can deduce they use some kind of mass effect fields since they increase/decrease mass, ergo, flying cars.  We cannot even begin to deduce how Shepard was resurrected.  Things like if Wilson ended up being a mad genius scientist who's on the verge of losing it, a whole battery of audio logs, clarity over what exactly happened to Shepard (like if we saw his body hit the surface of the planet intact, even if we know that's impossible) or even the mention of ME fields/Eezo...that would go a long, long way in helping the case.

#496
glacier1701

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iakus wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...Cheap gimmick as opposed to what? Shepard fell into a planet and smashed into the surface, and was left there for whatever length of time until the Blue Suns found him/her and scooped up the remains into a stasis pod.

Exactly HOW do you proceed from there? Or is that you would've preferred a different reset button? Also, you have to consider that a reset button, from a gameplay standpoint was necessary due to just how different the game systems are between ME1 and ME2. They are essentially two completely different games, and therefore some significant changes had to be made.

To facilitate this change, they implimented a reset button that worked within the plot, and in fact, SET UP the plot for the game. I suppose I don't understand how this was a failure of any kind.


The entire destruction of the Normandy and Shepard's extremely thorough death, only to be revived two years later is, in it's entirety, the "cheap gimmick"  If a reset button was in fact needed (which I question)  Something a little less over-the-top could certainly have been done.  Shepard being out of contact on the fringes of known space, Shepard as a prisoner somewhere, Shepard recovering from debilitating injuries,  I fail to see how Shepard being dead (and extremely dead at that)  for two years improved either the story or gameplay.


I am in agreement that something less drastic could have been done. Indeed I personally feel that something along the lines of Shepard tracking down the remainder of Saren's organisation to get any info that may be left over. In one of those ops, while not killed, is very severely injured with head injuries. Prognosis is that that while Shepard will recover there MAY be character changes and unknown neurological damage coupled with the need for reconstructive face surgery. In a nutshell.....possible change of face and explanation for changing classes/skills. No need for death and just as dramatic if done right in cutscenes. It even explains WHY Shepard can know about 'heat sinks' even though they were developed during the time Shepard was 'dead'.

#497
smudboy

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glacier1701 wrote...
I am in agreement that something less drastic could have been done. Indeed I personally feel that something along the lines of Shepard tracking down the remainder of Saren's organisation to get any info that may be left over. In one of those ops, while not killed, is very severely injured with head injuries. Prognosis is that that while Shepard will recover there MAY be character changes and unknown neurological damage coupled with the need for reconstructive face surgery. In a nutshell.....possible change of face and explanation for changing classes/skills. No need for death and just as dramatic if done right in cutscenes. It even explains WHY Shepard can know about 'heat sinks' even though they were developed during the time Shepard was 'dead'.

They could've even killed Shepard, and then brought them back immediately, which I hear is quite common nowadays (there are even medical procedures that to induce a state of death for diagnostic purpsoes.) It would keep marketing happy (we're not liars, honest!) And, without the ridiculous death-let's go hunt for his corpse Liara-resurrection fiasco.

#498
FlyinElk212

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[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

...Cheap gimmick as opposed to what? Shepard fell into a planet and smashed into the surface, and was left there for whatever length of time until the Blue Suns found him/her and scooped up the remains into a stasis pod.

Exactly HOW do you proceed from there? Or is that you would've preferred a different reset button? Also, you have to consider that a reset button, from a gameplay standpoint was necessary due to just how different the game systems are between ME1 and ME2. They are essentially two completely different games, and therefore some significant changes had to be made.

To facilitate this change, they implimented a reset button that worked within the plot, and in fact, SET UP the plot for the game. I suppose I don't understand how this was a failure of any kind.[/quote]

The entire destruction of the Normandy and Shepard's extremely thorough death, only to be revived two years later is, in it's entirety, the "cheap gimmick"  If a reset button was in fact needed (which I question)  Something a little less over-the-top could certainly have been done.  Shepard being out of contact on the fringes of known space, Shepard as a prisoner somewhere, Shepard recovering from debilitating injuries,  I fail to see how Shepard being dead (and extremely dead at that)  for two years improved either the story or gameplay.[/quote]

I would say that the death is less of a "cheap gimmick" and more of a "weak plot-tool". It works, but it's kind of a cop out, whereas instead of Shepard's character growing, Shepard is forced into a new situation due to his death.

Honestly, the only reason I can conjecture as to why Bioware chose the "death and rebirth" of Shepard is to continue the Shepard=Jesus Christ analogy. 12 followers, died and reborn again, "The Lord is my Shepard", etc.
[/quote]

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 23 juillet 2010 - 01:56 .


#499
FlyinElk212

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smudboy wrote...

We can accept something because of proper exposition, and it seems to be the norm.  People riding around in flying cars isn't explained, but we can deduce they use some kind of mass effect fields since they increase/decrease mass, ergo, flying cars.  We cannot even begin to deduce how Shepard was resurrected.  Things like if Wilson ended up being a mad genius scientist who's on the verge of losing it, a whole battery of audio logs, clarity over what exactly happened to Shepard (like if we saw his body hit the surface of the planet intact, even if we know that's impossible) or even the mention of ME fields/Eezo...that would go a long, long way in helping the case.


Here's where I have to disagree with you. While I agree that a proper story would normally explain the perceivedly impossible, in some cases with Sci-Fi, exposition isn't necessary.

In the Star Wars series, the Force was an unexplained phenomenon, something that mystified the audiences and truly captivated them in this new world. It was something that was always there, something that was always a major plot point, and something that no one could explain for the life of them......

...Until Star Wars episode 1, where the mystery and intrigue was ended when Qui-Gon brings up "Midi-Chlorians". The Midi-Chlorians suddenly gave the force a finite explanation, and destroyed the mystifying quality that the force once had. You wouldn't dare say that Star Wars: Episode 1 was right to explain how the force worked, would you?

I believe that the two bigger problems with Shepard's ressurection (one you point out) is the seeming dismissal of Shepard's resurrection amongst everyone, and the implementation of Shepard's death to further the plot. While people state, "Oh man! I thought you were dead!", no one seems genuinely shocked or in denial that he came back to life. It's not even really mentioned by those people as an incredible feat, despite it never happening before in the galaxy. As you state, what is even the point of having him die and come back if no one acknowledges the miracle?

Now to its implementation. I can understand Bioware choosing this route as a means to get Shepard to work for "the badguy" of ME1, but they really could have chosen so many other options instead of death to get him there (how about, CLOSE to death, and Cerberus saved his body before it entered the atmosphere?). It would have saved them the hassle of every fan questioning how resurrection is possible.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 23 juillet 2010 - 02:14 .


#500
Mister Mida

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FlyinElk212 wrote...

In the Star Wars series, the Force was an unexplained phenomenon, something that mystified the audiences and truly captivated them in this new world. It was something that was always there, something that was always a major plot point, and something that no one could explain for the life of them......

...Until Star Wars episode 1, where the mystery and intrigue was ended when Qui-Gon brings up "Midi-Chlorians". The Midi-Chlorians suddenly gave the force a finite explanation, and destroyed the mystifying quality that the force once had. You wouldn't dare say that Star Wars: Episode 1 was right to explain how the force worked, would you?

I was more under the impression that midi-chlorians just explained how people can be strong in the Force. It doesn't explain how the Force itself works, but how it is connected to living beings.

But still I agree, it should have never been mentioned.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 23 juillet 2010 - 02:36 .