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[RiouHotaru]

iakus wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

You're assuming they were trying to complete it then and there. The thing was already partially functional, I always saw it as they were trying to get it working enough so that it could start on whatever Plan C was.  As for the Alliance, they sent ONE agent to go and take a look and even then the Collectors were being sufficiently stealthy that they still didn't know who was behind the attacks - even that investigation was precipitated because Cerberus leaked false info.

Yeah, I am assuming that.  I can't for the life of me imagine what good a half finished Reaper would be.  

And while the Aliance was slow to respond, and needed nudging, the point is they have noticed.  Hand-wringing can only go on so long until enough colonies have disappeareed, and enough people have packed up and left the Terminus Systems that the Alliance will take an active interest in what's going on, if for no other reason than to make sure it doesn't start happening in Alliance space.  Terminus Systems out of humans +Alliance watching their borders closely for threats=???

So in the end, What did the Collectors hope to accomplish?  At least with Saren we knew what the goal was.

Also, remember that neither the Collectors or Harbinger were expecting anyone to be able to safely cross the Omega-4 relay.  They probably didn't know about the Reaper IFF.  As long as the one Collector Cruiser was making a series of random strikes all across the Terminus systems, there would be NO way to predict which colonies would be hit next, and thus, no armed response.

What happened is that the Reapers once AGAIN underestimated the human tendency towards tenacity and ingenuity, which is exactly what cost Sovereign his life.

And I'm fairly certain the Collectors would've had some plan in place if they managed to empty the Terminus systems.  We only never find out because it never gets that far.  And there's no reason to reveal the plan because that's part of the story-telling.  For all we know now, we still don't understand jack about the Reapers, besides EDI's speculations and Wild Mass Guessing on their possible motives.

[IoCaster]

glacier1701 wrote...
Well I think its more to do with the fact that a lot of the sales were to console users who, traditionally, have a shorter attention span and thus did not spread the word about the game. Coupled with the way that for almost a year prior to that with the way ME1 fans were told they did not matter it really comes down as being no surprise that sales are not as they might have hoped. Yet the reduction in TV advertising has, I think, more to do with the fact that more and more people spend less and less time watching tv than ever before. We have more things to do now.

There are obviously more factors involved in their decision to scale down the TV advertising. I recall that they also bought ad time during the SB (~$3 million for 30 second ad) for Dante's Inferno. Combined with the NFL playoff ad buy for ME2, that's a considerable expense for EA. 

For NPD numbers just google ("Feb+NPD" or whatever month interests you)

Dante's Inferno was released (US) in February:
8. Dante's Inferno (Divine Edition) - PS3 - EA - 242.5K
9. Dante's Inferno - 360 - EA - 224.7K

It dropped out of the top 10 list for March. From the May 2010 article linked below:

Dante's Inferno has now sold nearly 1 million units...

I don't know if those sales really constitute a good ROI for the kind of money spent on a Super Bowl ad buy. 

Mass Effect 2 was released in January:
2. Mass Effect 2 - Xbox 360 - Electronic Arts - 572.1K

In the February NPD top 10:
7. Mass Effect 2 - 360 - EA - 246.5K

Article from May 2010 - www.gamespot.com/news/6262120.html

The executive team noted that Mass Effect 2 has sold through more than 1.6 million units through both retail and digital means in Europe and North America. In January, the publisher said BioWare's acclaimed sci-fi role-playing game had shipped 2 million units worldwide.

These are the latest numbers that I could find for ME2 LTD. That's console and PC(+DD) combined in EU + NA. Pretty much on par with ME sales numbers, maybe a bit less. So they basically seem to have 'mainstreamed' the game to broaden it's appeal and spent some serious coin on marketing. The result so far doesn't show that they've succeeded at substantially increasing it's appeal or it's sales over ME. *shrug* 

What I find interesting is that they seem to be taking a similar approach with Dragon Age 2. Making some fundamental changes to the dialogue, combat and skills/talent systems to make the game more accessible or something. To the extent that some people are referring to the game as Dragon Effect 2. Perhaps it's an attempt to broaden it's appeal and attract a larger share of the console crowd. It's kind of strange to me because apparently DA:O sold better (3.2 million units) than ME2. It strikes me as a bit counterintuitive to chance alienating an existing fan base to try and attract a traditionally fickle console audience. We don't know what kind of marketing push or budget they'll allocate to DA2, but it seems doubtful that they'll spend bucks on another Super Bowl ad. I guess we'll see how that all works out for them around March 2011.  

[InvaderErl]

If I recall correctly the digital portion included in that 1.6 million figure does not include Steam and the other major digital distributors as I don't believe they release their sales figures but rather EA's own online service which is a relatively small portion of DD sales.


In any case, if you want to talk why ME2 doesn't have Call of Duty or Battlefield numbers the answer comes down to one thing: multiplayer. ME2 is a story driven, dialogue heavy RPG - there just seems to be a roof on how many people you can sell to on the console.

Take Fallout 3 for example "According to NPD Group the Xbox 360 version has sold 1.14 million units and the PlayStation 3 version has sold 552,000 units as of January 2009."

That's a period from October to Jan.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 24 juillet 2010 - 12:52 .

[glacier1701]

InvaderErl wrote...

iakus wrote...


Yeah, I am assuming that.  I can't for the life of me imagine what good a half finished Reaper would be.  

A Reaper can indoctrinate, a Reaper can get allies that they desperately need and that's even going off of the fact that the Reapers clearly had some kind of plan to get back into the Milky Way that we don't know about.

The whole problem with the lets build a fleet and attack the Citadel (again) is that this, according to the hints we get in game, is what the Reapers have been doing when the Rachni Wars started. For the life of me I still do not see why, when the signal to activate the Citadel relay failed, the Collectors and Sovereign did not just waltz over pretending to be friendly and launch an attack by surprise when inside the Citadel!! Its basically what they have been trying to do (if we go by the ingame hints) for hundreds of years yet the very first time they could use it to maximum effect they didnt. The more you look at things the more you realise that while the writers may have been trying to tell a good story the NO RPG rule in force for much of the development trumped everything and destroyed any chance at a cohesive and good story as BioWare should have been capable of. There can ONLY be one reason for that and that puts the fault squarely in the hands of the head of Mass Effect production. After all if you eagerly suck up the accolades then you have to accept the blame for the failure as well.

[InvaderErl]

glacier1701 wrote...



The whole problem with the lets build a fleet and attack the Citadel (again) is that this, according to the hints we get in game, is what the Reapers have been doing when the Rachni Wars started. For the life of me I still do not see why, when the signal to activate the Citadel relay failed, the Collectors and Sovereign did not just waltz over pretending to be friendly and launch an attack by surprise when inside the Citadel!!

Your argument is flawed because it presumes that the Council would have allowed a strange alien ship anywhere near the Citadel. The Citadel's defenses seem to be impenetrable enough that Sovereign didn't seem comfortable attacking it without a way to override them.

Or alternatively if you want to propose a situation where Sovereign hangs around and is friendly for CENTURIES this would be more of a issue with Mass Effect 1 No? Since presumably according to you Sovereign could have just pretended to be friendly and skipped the whole Geth/Conduit nonsense. In fact I remember several threads on the old forums about just this very thing.

Additionally we have no idea what their actual plan is, only that it involved having a Reaper. You're saying plot hole based on information that is not in the game.

glacier1701 wrote...
Its basically what they have been trying to do (if we go by the ingame hints) for hundreds of years yet the very first time they could use it to maximum effect they didnt. The more you look at things the more you realise that while the writers may have been trying to tell a good story the NO RPG rule in force for much of the development trumped everything and destroyed any chance at a cohesive and good story as BioWare should have been capable of. There can ONLY be one reason for that and that puts the fault squarely in the hands of the head of Mass Effect production. After all if you eagerly suck up the accolades then you have to accept the blame for the failure as well.

Again since this is a issue with ME1 I don't quite think this makes sense.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 24 juillet 2010 - 12:51 .

[IoCaster]

InvaderErl wrote...

If I recall correctly the digital portion included in that 1.6 million figure does not include Steam and the other major digital distributors as I don't believe they release their sales figures but rather EA's own online service which is a relatively small portion of DD sales.

That may well be the case, but these numbers were from an EA financial report. They would surely have to account for all sales and they would also be aware of how many units were sold including through other vendors. Unless you're making a claim that Steam, D2D and others don't provide EA with sales figures for their products.

InvaderErl wrote...
In any case, if you want to talk why ME2 doesn't have Call of Duty or Battlefield numbers the answer comes down to one thing: multiplayer. ME2 is a story driven, dialogue heavy RPG - there just seems to be a roof on how many people you can sell to on the console.

What I'm saying is that it looks like they took a calculated risk with the design changes in ME2 that were seemingly tailored to broaden it's appeal to the (presumed) console gamer demographic. Hiring expensive and celebrated voice talent. Eliminating or simplifying the RPG elements of the game. Creating a bunch of comic book super hero squad members in skintight outfits (Dat Azz, Dat Cleavage, Nipple Belt, etc,..). The story, plot, death, resurrection, Collectors, suicide mission and so on.

All of those design decisions were consciously made as an attempt to improve the product and increase sales of the sequel. They gave it a big marketing push with TV ads, Sci vs Fi TV special, teasers, trailers, demos and interviews all over the Web. EA spent a bundle on the marketing for the game. All of this effort doesn't seem to have translated into the blockbuster sales that I'm sure they were hoping for.

InvaderErl wrote...
Take Fallout 3 for example "According to NPD Group the Xbox 360 version has sold 1.14 million units and the PlayStation 3 version has sold 552,000 units as of January 2009."

That's a period from October to Jan.

Dragon Age has sold-in over 3.2 million units worldwide. It's also available on the PC, PS3 and X360 like Fallout 3. Some people are wondering why BioWare is incorporating some of the design elements of ME2 into DA2 when DA:O was so successful. Why fix what ain't broke? One would argue that the devs are convinced that they're improving the product and it'll generate better sales. That's the same approach they took with ME2, so we'll see how that turns out. *shrug*

[glacier1701]

InvaderErl wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...



The whole problem with the lets build a fleet and attack the Citadel (again) is that this, according to the hints we get in game, is what the Reapers have been doing when the Rachni Wars started. For the life of me I still do not see why, when the signal to activate the Citadel relay failed, the Collectors and Sovereign did not just waltz over pretending to be friendly and launch an attack by surprise when inside the Citadel!!

Your argument is flawed because it presumes that the Council would have allowed a strange alien ship anywhere near the Citadel. The Citadel's defenses seem to be impenetrable enough that Sovereign didn't seem comfortable attacking it without a way to override them.

Or alternatively if you want to propose a situation where Sovereign hangs around and is friendly for CENTURIES this would be more of a issue with Mass Effect 1 No? Since presumably according to you Sovereign could have just pretended to be friendly and skipped the whole Geth/Conduit nonsense. In fact I remember several threads on the old forums about just this very thing.

Additionally we have no idea what their actual plan is, only that it involved having a Reaper. You're saying plot hole based on information that is not in the game.

Remember when discussing this we are talking of a time some 2100 years ago when it was just the Asari and the Salarians on the Council with a few member species. So why wouldn't the Council ok a visit by 2 ships? Not a fleet and until you see them there is NO way you would know that they were anything special. If you saw these 2 ships coming unless you had something specific against them you'd be falling all over yourself especially if they said they wanted to join the Council. After all this if these are 'normal' ships for those races then what would their warships be like? That is until they suddenly launched the surprise attack once inside the Citadel. And BTW the information about the Rachni Wars is inside the game. You just have to trigger the proper conversations to get that information.

InvaderErl wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...
Its basically what they have been trying to do (if we go by the ingame hints) for hundreds of years yet the very first time they could use it to maximum effect they didnt. The more you look at things the more you realise that while the writers may have been trying to tell a good story the NO RPG rule in force for much of the development trumped everything and destroyed any chance at a cohesive and good story as BioWare should have been capable of. There can ONLY be one reason for that and that puts the fault squarely in the hands of the head of Mass Effect production. After all if you eagerly suck up the accolades then you have to accept the blame for the failure as well.

Again since this is a issue with ME1 I don't quite think this makes sense.

Not an issue with ME1 - its an ME2 issue. ME2 is the game that had the NO RPG rule in effect. That is the gameplay would overrule any issue that would come up in terms of anything else for the game. Remember its the Collectors I am talking about and they were NOT in ME1 so it cannot be about ME1.

[Il Divo]

glacier1701 wrote...
Remember when discussing this we are talking of a time some 2100 years ago when it was just the Asari and the Salarians on the Council with a few member species. So why wouldn't the Council ok a visit by 2 ships? Not a fleet and until you see them there is NO way you would know that they were anything special. If you saw these 2 ships coming unless you had something specific against them you'd be falling all over yourself especially if they said they wanted to join the Council. After all this if these are 'normal' ships for those races then what would their warships be like? That is until they suddenly launched the surprise attack once inside the Citadel. And BTW the information about the Rachni Wars is inside the game. You just have to trigger the proper conversations to get that information.

What purpose would Sovereign/Collector Ship befriending the Council serve though? To our knowledge, the signal Sovereign launched was long after the time when the Asari and Salarians first formed the Council. Sovereign had no reason to think the signal for the keepers wouldn't be successful, hence no reason to speak with organics at all.

Not an issue with ME1 - its an ME2 issue. ME2 is the game that had the NO RPG rule in effect. That is the gameplay would overrule any issue that would come up in terms of anything else for the game. Remember its the Collectors I am talking about and they were NOT in ME1 so it cannot be about ME1.

Out of curiosity, what is the "No RPG rule". It's rather unclear.

Edit: It's also important to point out that the only thing that would change in your example is that Sovereign would approach the Asari/Salarians alone without the Collector Ship, so it's still easily a Mass Effect 1 issue.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 juillet 2010 - 05:30 .

[freestylez]

iakus wrote...

freestylez wrote...

That's very possible buy it just seems like a plan destined for failure. I think EDI said in the game that it would take several billion humans to complete the reaper. I would assume the Collectors would know by that point they would have gained the attention of a lot of the galaxy and be facing resistance. So they have to successfully harvest humans, then prepare for an attack on the Citadel, again. And I doubt that Collectors fleet can match the Geth army in ME1.

The Collector "fleet" is one ship.  One lousy ship.  Sovereign had an armada of geth at his command.  Plus the number of humans it would take to complete a Reaper would likely empty the Terminus Systems of humans. The Allience was already starting to take notice (sending Ashely/Kaiden to help with the ground defenses on Horizon).  Building a new Reaper unless an invasion was already in progress just seemed doomed to failure from the start.  Even without the "Chosen one" leading a "Suicide Mision" against the Collectors.  

Well I guess we can conclude that the Reapers aren't so smart after all..

The end of Mass Effect 2 implies that the Reapers said after failing a second time: "Ah screw it guys, let's just fly to the milky way!"

Maybe every other races for the past 37 million years were just too dumb that the reapers didn't bother to make a good backup plan? LOL

[Mister Mida]

You know, a while back I actually thought about 're-writing' Mass Effect 2's story to make it more connected to ME (1). I thought about including the geth more often in the main plot and Legion as well (since to me it was hinted he would be more involved in the plot rather than just near the end) and having another reason for the Collectors to abduct humans.

[InvaderErl]

glacier1701 wrote...



Remember when discussing this we are talking of a time some 2100 years ago when it was just the Asari and the Salarians on the Council with a few member species. So why wouldn't the Council ok a visit by 2 ships? Not a fleet and until you see them there is NO way you would know that they were anything special. If you saw these 2 ships coming unless you had something specific against them you'd be falling all over yourself especially if they said they wanted to join the Council. After all this if these are 'normal' ships for those races then what would their warships be like? That is until they suddenly launched the surprise attack once inside the Citadel. And BTW the information about the Rachni Wars is inside the game. You just have to trigger the proper conversations to get that information.

You're not explaining to me how this is a ME2 plot hole when all of this information was established in ME1 and was important to the plot. If I was to agree with you this would be a Mass Effect 1 plothole.

Even then as Il Divo pointed out, Sovereign thought the signal was working until recently.

glacier1701 wrote...

Not an issue with ME1 - its an ME2 issue. ME2 is the game that had the NO RPG rule in effect. That is the gameplay would overrule any issue that would come up in terms of anything else for the game. Remember its the Collectors I am talking about and they were NOT in ME1 so it cannot be about ME1.

You seem to be sort of... making this whole rule thing up if you don't mind my saying, unless YOU were on the dev team and know something I don't.

And again it is a ME1 issue, since Mass Effect 1 established that Sovereign has A. Been around for a long time. B. Can indoctrinate people subtly, therefore using your argument should have bided his time and waited. None of that has to do with ME2 as ME2 is not concerned with the Conduit/Citadel plot and doesn't establish any of the aforementioned things.

You keep bringing up the Collectors but again as Divo stated they are a non-issue to your scenario. The plot hole as you seem to percieve it rests squarely in the first game's lap.

People were in fact bringing this issue up on the old forums long before ME2 so you're literally criticizing the sequel for something that is completely in the domain of its predecessor.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 24 juillet 2010 - 09:05 .

[InvaderErl]

IoCaster wrote...

That may well be the case, but these numbers were from an EA financial report. They would surely have to account for all sales and they would also be aware of how many units were sold including through other vendors. Unless you're making a claim that Steam, D2D and others don't provide EA with sales figures for their products.

Fair enough.

IoCaster wrote...
What I'm saying is that it looks like they took a calculated risk with the design changes in ME2 that were seemingly tailored to broaden it's appeal to the (presumed) console gamer demographic. Hiring expensive and celebrated voice talent. Eliminating or simplifying the RPG elements of the game. Creating a bunch of comic book super hero squad members in skintight outfits (Dat Azz, Dat Cleavage, Nipple Belt, etc,..). The story, plot, death, resurrection, Collectors, suicide mission and so on.

All of those design decisions were consciously made as an attempt to improve the product and increase sales of the sequel. They gave it a big marketing push with TV ads, Sci vs Fi TV special, teasers, trailers, demos and interviews all over the Web. EA spent a bundle on the marketing for the game. All of this effort doesn't seem to have translated into the blockbuster sales that I'm sure they were hoping for.

That the game opened up significantly stronger points to the fact that the marketing did its job, after that the game needs to carry on by itself to which I again point to Fallout 3 a game which I don't think anybody would claim was some kind of middling success performed similiarly to Mass Effect 2.

Also you are presuming quite a bit about what their target was for sales and their costs (let's not forget ME1 had to be built from the ground up and in fact had a strong marketing push itself: for example they too had the Sci vs Fi  special as well as teasers, trailers, tv spots) without any actual hard data to what any of those may have been.

IoCaster wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
Take Fallout 3 for example "According to NPD Group the Xbox 360 version has sold 1.14 million units and the PlayStation 3 version has sold 552,000 units as of January 2009."

That's a period from October to Jan.

Dragon Age has sold-in over 3.2 million units worldwide. It's also available on the PC, PS3 and X360 like Fallout 3. Some people are wondering why BioWare is incorporating some of the design elements of ME2 into DA2 when DA:O was so successful. Why fix what ain't broke? One would argue that the devs are convinced that they're improving the product and it'll generate better sales. That's the same approach they took with ME2, so we'll see how that turns out. *shrug*

From the article:

Legendary Studio's Newest Title Wins over 30 Industry Awards, Ships Over 3 Million Units Becoming BioWare's Sixth Consecutive Blockbuster Franchise

Notice the use of the word SHIPPED, publishers like to throw it around quite a bit intermingling it with sold.

Mass Effect 2 SHIPPED 2 million in its FIRST week.

In fact Mass Effect 2's shipped figure indicates that they knew more or less how it was going to sell.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 24 juillet 2010 - 10:25 .

[Iakus]

InvaderErl wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...



Remember when discussing this we are talking of a time some 2100 years ago when it was just the Asari and the Salarians on the Council with a few member species. So why wouldn't the Council ok a visit by 2 ships? Not a fleet and until you see them there is NO way you would know that they were anything special. If you saw these 2 ships coming unless you had something specific against them you'd be falling all over yourself especially if they said they wanted to join the Council. After all this if these are 'normal' ships for those races then what would their warships be like? That is until they suddenly launched the surprise attack once inside the Citadel. And BTW the information about the Rachni Wars is inside the game. You just have to trigger the proper conversations to get that information.

You're not explaining to me how this is a ME2 plot hole when all of this information was established in ME1 and was important to the plot. If I was to agree with you this would be a Mass Effect 1 plothole.

Even then as Il Divo pointed out, Sovereign thought the signal was working until recently.

What we know:

A couple of thousand years ago, Sovereign checks on the development of the races and finds teir ripe for harvesting, so he sends teh signal to the Keepers.  They ignore it.  Sovereign has no idea why, as he had no idea about Ilos or the Conduit, so he does what most people do when they find a door is inexplicably stuck.  He tries to shove it open.  Enter Rachni Wars (which very nearly succeeded) Enter Krogan Rebelions (demonstrating the cure was almost as bad as the disease)  Sovereign is left to puzzle out on his own what happened to the Keepers.

It's not a stretch to assume that at this point, the CItadel would be a bit more wary about strange alien races  Heck, look what happened when the turians first encountered humans!  Sovereign was left with the slow, laborous task of working out for himself what happened in the Citadel to block the signal.

The question then becomes: 

If there was already a Reaper slave race in the Collectors, why not send them as a Trojan Horse, packed with all sorts of neato Reaper tech, such as seeker swarms and particle beams and dragon's teeth?  This would have been millenia earlier, when the races are not as advanced and before more warlike races such as turians, humans and krogan were around,  Just asari commandos and salarians (unless the volus are actually ninjas in enviroment suits) 

Why is this an ME 2 plot hole?  Well it's not exclusively an ME 2 one.  Sovereign might have been able to do this with the rachni. But the Collectors are not mentioned at all in ME 1.  We had no idea they existed before ME 2, unless they appeared in some other media, which I say doesn't count. 

[InvaderErl]

iakus wrote...


What we know:

A couple of thousand years ago, Sovereign checks on the development of the races and finds teir ripe for harvesting, so he sends teh signal to the Keepers.  They ignore it.  Sovereign has no idea why, as he had no idea about Ilos or the Conduit, so he does what most people do when they find a door is inexplicably stuck.  He tries to shove it open.  Enter Rachni Wars (which very nearly succeeded) Enter Krogan Rebelions (demonstrating the cure was almost as bad as the disease)  Sovereign is left to puzzle out on his own what happened to the Keepers.

It's not a stretch to assume that at this point, the CItadel would be a bit more wary about strange alien races  Heck, look what happened when the turians first encountered humans!  Sovereign was left with the slow, laborous task of working out for himself what happened in the Citadel to block the signal.

The question then becomes: 

If there was already a Reaper slave race in the Collectors, why not send them as a Trojan Horse, packed with all sorts of neato Reaper tech, such as seeker swarms and particle beams and dragon's teeth?  This would have been millenia earlier, when the races are not as advanced and before more warlike races such as turians, humans and krogan were around,  Just asari commandos and salarians (unless the volus are actually ninjas in enviroment suits) 

Why is this an ME 2 plot hole?  Well it's not exclusively an ME 2 one.  Sovereign might have been able to do this with the rachni. But the Collectors are not mentioned at all in ME 1.  We had no idea they existed before ME 2, unless they appeared in some other media, which I say doesn't count. 

Sovereign being a immortal machine could have simply gained their trust over centuries, a milennia or two if need be. He's hung around for 50,000 years another few isn't a bother to him and with his ability to subtly indoctrinate followers he could have done it with ANYONE - hell he could have just befriended a iteration of the Council and used them after having ingratiated himself, the Collectors are a non-issue.

The plot hole existed before ME2 ever entered the picture, hence this plot hole is of ME1's construction.

And why would the Collectors appear in ME1? They're not a fighting force, nor where they ever designed to be. Its only when Sovereign is dead that they repurpose the Collector's into something other than what they were designed for.  Sovereign was trying to recruit an ARMY as he thought that he was going to have to fight for control of the Citadel, the Collectors do not fit this purpose.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 25 juillet 2010 - 01:37 .

[Zulu_DFA]

iakus wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...



Remember when discussing this we are talking of a time some 2100 years ago when it was just the Asari and the Salarians on the Council with a few member species. So why wouldn't the Council ok a visit by 2 ships? Not a fleet and until you see them there is NO way you would know that they were anything special. If you saw these 2 ships coming unless you had something specific against them you'd be falling all over yourself especially if they said they wanted to join the Council. After all this if these are 'normal' ships for those races then what would their warships be like? That is until they suddenly launched the surprise attack once inside the Citadel. And BTW the information about the Rachni Wars is inside the game. You just have to trigger the proper conversations to get that information.

You're not explaining to me how this is a ME2 plot hole when all of this information was established in ME1 and was important to the plot. If I was to agree with you this would be a Mass Effect 1 plothole.

Even then as Il Divo pointed out, Sovereign thought the signal was working until recently.

What we know:

A couple of thousand years ago, Sovereign checks on the development of the races and finds teir ripe for harvesting, so he sends teh signal to the Keepers.  They ignore it.  Sovereign has no idea why, as he had no idea about Ilos or the Conduit, so he does what most people do when they find a door is inexplicably stuck.  He tries to shove it open.  Enter Rachni Wars (which very nearly succeeded) Enter Krogan Rebelions (demonstrating the cure was almost as bad as the disease)  Sovereign is left to puzzle out on his own what happened to the Keepers.

It's not a stretch to assume that at this point, the CItadel would be a bit more wary about strange alien races  Heck, look what happened when the turians first encountered humans!  Sovereign was left with the slow, laborous task of working out for himself what happened in the Citadel to block the signal.

The question then becomes: 

If there was already a Reaper slave race in the Collectors, why not send them as a Trojan Horse, packed with all sorts of neato Reaper tech, such as seeker swarms and particle beams and dragon's teeth?  This would have been millenia earlier, when the races are not as advanced and before more warlike races such as turians, humans and krogan were around,  Just asari commandos and salarians (unless the volus are actually ninjas in enviroment suits) 

Why is this an ME 2 plot hole?  Well it's not exclusively an ME 2 one.  Sovereign might have been able to do this with the rachni. But the Collectors are not mentioned at all in ME 1.  We had no idea they existed before ME 2, unless they appeared in some other media, which I say doesn't count. 

The Rachni Queen was a bug lying. The Rachni were not indoctrinated. If they were, Sovereign (and Saren) would have known the location of the Mu Relay, and you'd never meet the Queen, because there'd be no need to extract the location of the Mu Relay from it at Peak 15.

Possibly Sovereign was behind the Krogan Rebellions (Consider: Harbinger about Grunt: "A KROGAN. WASTED POTENTIAL").

But anyway the detour to Ilos was absolutely imperative. Because if it wasn't, Saren could just "go Palpatine" on the Council (with better chances of success, than the open attcak). Why it was imperative is currently unknown. But, with Ilos visited, the Collectors were given green light by their masters to go harvesting Humans for the baby Reaper.

Just my loonie theories.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

If there was already a Reaper slave race in the Collectors, why not send them as a Trojan Horse, packed with all sorts of neato Reaper tech, such as seeker swarms and particle beams and dragon's teeth?  This would have been millenia earlier, when the races are not as advanced and before more warlike races such as turians, humans and krogan were around,  Just asari commandos and salarians (unless the volus are actually ninjas in enviroment suits)  

And this is a fair question, but as Invader points out, Mass Effect 1 commits the exact same issue. There's nothing to stop Sovereign from doing everything in place of the Collectors that you just described.

However, your criticism also doesn't answer the timing of all this. How precisely are the Collectors to work their way into the Council Chamber in this "trojan horse"? It's simply contrary to everything they were intended for to walk straight into the heart of galactic civilization and prostrate themselves before the Council. Sovereign is the same way; he operates from the shadows the entire time by proxy soldiers. We also don't know if the Collectors had by this point already had their reputation established as horror myths in which case I doubt the Council would allow them anywhere near Citadel space.  

Why is this an ME 2 plot hole?  Well it's not exclusively an ME 2 one.  Sovereign might have been able to do this with the rachni. But the Collectors are not mentioned at all in ME 1.  We had no idea they existed before ME 2, unless they appeared in some other media, which I say doesn't count. 

Everything we see and hear about the Collectors makes it clear that they are not intended as an up-front fighting force. Even though they possess some military might, they prefer to be quick and deadly as the attack on the Normandy and seeker swarms indicate. They don't like direct combat.

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 juillet 2010 - 03:34 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

If there was already a Reaper slave race in the Collectors, why not send them as a Trojan Horse, packed with all sorts of neato Reaper tech, such as seeker swarms and particle beams and dragon's teeth?  This would have been millenia earlier, when the races are not as advanced and before more warlike races such as turians, humans and krogan were around,  Just asari commandos and salarians (unless the volus are actually ninjas in enviroment suits)  

And this is a fair question, but as Invader points out, Mass Effect 1 commits the exact same issue. There's nothing to stop Sovereign from doing everything in place of the Collectors that you just described.

As Vigil pointed out, Sovereign is powerful, but still only one Reaper.  If it came to a major throwdown, he can't take everyone at once (as the end of ME 1 proves).  He's not gonna reveal himself until he's 100% certain of success.  He was able to subvert the rachni because they were isolated, likely to the point of xenophobia.  revealing himself to the Citadel, even as an "ally"  is simply too big a risk

However, your criticism also doesn't answer the timing of all this. How precisely are the Collectors to work their way into the Council Chamber in this "trojan horse"? It's simply contrary to everything they were intended for to walk straight into the heart of galactic civilization and prostrate themselves before the Council. Sovereign is the same way; he operates from the shadows the entire time by proxy soldiers. We also don't know if the Collectors had by this point already had their reputation established as horror myths in which case I doubt the Council would allow them anywhere near Citadel space.  

In truth, we don't know.  However, most people in Citadel space regard Collectors as a myth.  It's unliekly tey would be recognized as Collectors, and even if they were, virtually nothing is known about them.

Given how easily Collectors can grab up colonies, how hard would it be to lock down the Citadel with a few Seeker swarms?  Send in some husks in case anyone gets missed, and soon Soveregin would be "assuming direct control" of the Citadel

Everything we see and hear about the Collectors makes it clear that they are not intended as an up-front fighting force. Even though they possess some military might, they prefer to be quick and deadly as the attack on the Normandy and seeker swarms indicate. They don't like direct combat.

Absolutely true.  What throws a monkey wrench into things is that the Collectors appear to have all the technology needed to form a quick, deadly strike against an ususpecting Citadel.  In addition to having technology that is still being traded for genetic samples, they can supplement their numbers via husks, and have the ability to "turn off" an entire colony's worth of people with Seeker swarms.  In an earlier, more idealistic time, (before the Rachni Wars) I submit that the Collectors could have gotten on board the Citadel as emissaries of a new race, and absolutely wreaked havok.  It is not their primary purpose, but they could have done it.  I can think of two reasons why this would not be so.

Sovereign simply didn't think of it and decided to go play with the bugs.  Well, the other bugs.

Developers came up with a really kewl race to use in ME2 after the fact.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...
As Vigil pointed out, Sovereign is powerful, but still only one Reaper.  If it came to a major throwdown, he can't take everyone at once (as the end of ME 1 proves).  He's not gonna reveal himself until he's 100% certain of success.  He was able to subvert the rachni because they were isolated, likely to the point of xenophobia.  revealing himself to the Citadel, even as an "ally"  is simply too big a risk

Why is it a risk? Moreso than sending the Collecors? Simply indoctrinate the Council. We learn that Reapers are capable of creating "sleeper agents". All Sovereign has to do is either corrupt the Council or create enough sleeper agents to overwhelm the Council chamber while Saren hands control over to Sovereign. Sovereign is crafty. There's no reason why he should have resorted to the plan he did when a thousand better options existed.

In truth, we don't know.  However, most people in Citadel space regard Collectors as a myth.  It's unliekly tey would be recognized as Collectors, and even if they were, virtually nothing is known about them.

And yet, the myths remain. People have heard stories of the Collectors and what they are capable of doing, even the Council. If this mysterious race had made its way into the heart of galactic society, don't you think the Council might've had some indication that these creatures were eerily similar to these strange myths they'd heard about a race called the Collectors?

Absolutely true.  What throws a monkey wrench into things is that the Collectors appear to have all the technology needed to form a quick, deadly strike against an ususpecting Citadel.  In addition to having technology that is still being traded for genetic samples, they can supplement their numbers via husks, and have the ability to "turn off" an entire colony's worth of people with Seeker swarms.  In an earlier, more idealistic time, (before the Rachni Wars) I submit that the Collectors could have gotten on board the Citadel as emissaries of a new race, and absolutely wreaked havok.  It is not their primary purpose, but they could have done it.  I can think of two reasons why this would not be so.

A single deadly strike is all well and good until you're facing Dreadnoughts. As Vigil said, Sovereign couldn't stand against the entire fleet. What hope could a lone Collector Ship have? Seeker swarms are not effective against enemy ships which would likely tear the Collector Ship apart long before it could let the Reapers through. I'm also curious how they turn a lone ship into a "new race seeking Council membership".

This also creates the problem that Sovereign needs to be in the general vicinity to take control of the relay, as we have no indication that the Collectors can do so. So either way, he's entering the heart of galactic society which is a no-no as you say. In short, it violates the style and purpose of the Collectors to draw attention to themselves in the manner you are suggesting. Hell, attacking human colonies was already a big risk.

[InvaderErl]

I'd also like to say a seeker attack would be far less effective aboard the citadel. The sheer size of the station will make it harder for the seekers to swarm effectively giving the station time to go into security lockdown or for the defenders to react and intervene, not to mention seekers are usually deployed directly from the Collector ship overhead. If they need to bring enough swarms onto the station to immobilize its defenders their running a huge risk of detection.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 25 juillet 2010 - 04:59 .

[IoCaster]

InvaderErl wrote...

That the game opened up significantly stronger points to the fact that the marketing did its job, after that the game needs to carry on by itself to which I again point to Fallout 3 a game which I don't think anybody would claim was some kind of middling success performed similiarly to Mass Effect 2.

First month for ME=472.8K
Second month for ME=401K

First month for ME2=572.1K
Second month for ME2=246.5K

I don't know why you're bringing Fallout 3 into the discussion. They're completely different games. Fallout 3 is an FPS, open world style RPG. They also shipped 4.7 million copies of Fallout 3 as compared to 2 million for ME2. Huh?

InvaderErl wrote...
Also you are presuming quite a bit about what their target was for sales and their costs (let's not forget ME1 had to be built from the ground up and in fact had a strong marketing push itself: for example they too had the Sci vs Fi  special as well as teasers, trailers, tv spots) without any actual hard data to what any of those may have been.

I didn't presume anything for sales other than the obvious. They listened to the fan and critic feedback. They implemented changes to the core gameplay based on that feedback. Are you seriously trying to make the case that they weren't hoping to expand their fan base and sell more copies of the game? Why would you believe that they wouldn't want to sell more copies of ME2? Especially now that EA has taken over publishing and marketing duties from MS. 

InvaderErl wrote...

From the article:

Legendary Studio's Newest Title Wins over 30 Industry Awards, Ships Over 3 Million Units Becoming BioWare's Sixth Consecutive Blockbuster Franchise

Notice the use of the word SHIPPED, publishers like to throw it around quite a bit intermingling it with sold.

Mass Effect 2 SHIPPED 2 million in its FIRST week.

In fact Mass Effect 2's shipped figure indicates that they knew more or less how it was going to sell.

The initial shipment number is based on the expectation of retailers. The retailers order however many copies they think that they'll be able to move. If EA/BioWare thought that they could sell 10 million copies it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference because the retailers make the call on how many copies they order. If they sell all of their copies then they order some more and that would be referred to as a second shipment. The initial shipment for ME2 was 2 million worldwide. The latest numbers we have (May, 2010) are 1.6 million sold through to consumers. They haven't sold through the initial shipment yet considering that number also includes digital download sales. Five months after release (May) and that's a lot of hard copies still sitting on shelves somewhere. 

Look I'm not trying to knock the game for not selling a zillion copies. I'm simply stating that all of the gameplay changes, wacky sidekicks, hype and marketing doesn't seem to have expanded the audience beyond what the first game did. It's not unreasonable to assume that EA/BioWare expected better sales than they got. If we're going to disagree on that it's fine and there's no need to get defensive about it.

[glacier1701]

Il Divo wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...
Remember when discussing this we are talking of a time some 2100 years ago when it was just the Asari and the Salarians on the Council with a few member species. So why wouldn't the Council ok a visit by 2 ships? Not a fleet and until you see them there is NO way you would know that they were anything special. If you saw these 2 ships coming unless you had something specific against them you'd be falling all over yourself especially if they said they wanted to join the Council. After all this if these are 'normal' ships for those races then what would their warships be like? That is until they suddenly launched the surprise attack once inside the Citadel. And BTW the information about the Rachni Wars is inside the game. You just have to trigger the proper conversations to get that information.

What purpose would Sovereign/Collector Ship befriending the Council serve though? To our knowledge, the signal Sovereign launched was long after the time when the Asari and Salarians first formed the Council. Sovereign had no reason to think the signal for the keepers wouldn't be successful, hence no reason to speak with organics at all.

Not an issue with ME1 - its an ME2 issue. ME2 is the game that had the NO RPG rule in effect. That is the gameplay would overrule any issue that would come up in terms of anything else for the game. Remember its the Collectors I am talking about and they were NOT in ME1 so it cannot be about ME1.

Out of curiosity, what is the "No RPG rule". It's rather unclear.

Edit: It's also important to point out that the only thing that would change in your example is that Sovereign would approach the Asari/Salarians alone without the Collector Ship, so it's still easily a Mass Effect 1 issue.

A lot of people answered this question about Collectors/Reapers and why its a 'fail' in the story. 


The NO RPG rule was a long period in the development of ME2 where the ONLY focus was on gameplay. It meant, for example, that if the gameplay contradicted the storyline but would suffer to bring it into line with the storyline then the story was what had to change not the gameplay. Its why we got heatsinks and the flaws within both Jacob's loyalty mission and whenever we fight the Collectors. Niether should allow drops of heatsinks but gameplay would suffer so despite it ruining the story gameplay trumped the story. There are other examples if you look carefully enough.



EDIT: and I would also like to thank everyone on BOTH sides who have kept things civil in this thread. It beens a pleasure to come in and see what people have to say even if its an opposing view because they have done so in a manner that is pleasant to read.

Modifié par glacier1701, 25 juillet 2010 - 02:26 .

[Il Divo]

[quote]glacier1701 wrote...

A lot of people answered this question about Collectors/Reapers and why its a 'fail' in the story.  [/quote]

Perhaps, but I haven't heard those answers personally. What I'm saying is you provided an example where Sovereign/the Collectors 'befriend the Council' and claimed that this was an issue only with Mass Effect 2. How is it an issue strictly with Mass Effect 2 when I can change the example so that Sovereign befriends the Council solo? It still becomes a Mass Effect 1 issue like this.

[quote]
The NO RPG rule was a long period in the development of ME2 where the ONLY focus was on gameplay. It meant, for example, that if the gameplay contradicted the storyline but would suffer to bring it into line with the storyline then the story was what had to change not the gameplay. Its why we got heatsinks and the flaws within both Jacob's loyalty mission and whenever we fight the Collectors. Niether should allow drops of heatsinks but gameplay would suffer so despite it ruining the story gameplay trumped the story. There are other examples if you look carefully enough. [/quote]

I personally don't mind small alterations in the story, as heatsinks. As a general rule though, I rarely consider gameplay to be part of the narrative experience (otherwise technically I would consider Harbinger to be a BBEG). There are plenty of minor things to point out. Kaidan's an L2 while Shepard is an L3 yet we never see Kaidan's biotics do anything truly spectacular: things of that sort.

Also what were the flaws in Jacob's loyalty mission?

[quote]
EDIT: and I would also like to thank everyone on BOTH sides who have kept things civil in this thread. It beens a pleasure to come in and see what people have to say even if its an opposing view because they have done so in a manner that is pleasant to read. [/quote]
[/quote]

Uhh, this isn't your way of saying good-bye, I hope? There is plenty more to discuss.

[Count Viceroy]

Il Divo wrote...



Also what were the flaws in Jacob's loyalty mission?

I assume its about the people on the planet having access to heatsinks and weapons that use them at all, they have been lost for 10 years after all. Going by the story, the heatsinks were put into production and magically spread to every corner of the galaxy during the 2 years shepard was dead.

[InvaderErl]

That's like complaining that Nihilus was killed in one shot at the start of ME1 even though his shields should have stopped the shot or that Wrex's shield should have blocked Ashley's pistol shot. There is a division between gameplay and story.

IoCaster wrote...

First month for ME=472.8K
Second month for ME=401K

First month for ME2=572.1K
Second month for ME2=246.5K

The first month opened up stronger than ME2's first month. I don't know what the second month has to do with it - the second month has nothing to do with the marketing unless you are trying to say less people brought ME2 over all.

ME2 was released on PC this time as opposed to ME1's XBOX only release and NPD does not include PC retail sales in their figures. Additionally, looking about for some research I stumbled onto this article from just a few days ago, July 22nd , NPD has just begun to track digital PC sales and they discovered:

NPD now tracks PC game digital downloads, finds that they make up nearly 50 percent of all sales


So the ME2 NPD numbers listed above are far from the total picture.

IoCaster wrote...
I don't know why you're bringing Fallout 3 into the discussion. They're completely different games. Fallout 3 is an FPS, open world style RPG. They also shipped 4.7 million copies of Fallout 3 as compared to 2 million for ME2. Huh?

Shipped does not equal sold to customers, which is what we are talking about.

In that case Mass Effect 2 shipped 2 million in  ONE week when compared to Dragon Age which we know shipped its 3 million figure after a headstart of 3 months and over a period of SIX months.

Fallout 3 is a single-player only RPG experience with shooter elements/Mass Effect is a single player only RPG experience with shooter elements and they sold to customers similiarly regardless of units shipped.

They certainly have more in common than with Origins which is isometric old school party RPG.

IoCaster wrote...
The initial shipment number is based on the expectation of retailers. The retailers order however many copies they think that they'll be able to move. If EA/BioWare thought that they could sell 10 million copies it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference because the retailers make the call on how many copies they order. If they sell all of their copies then they order some more and that would be referred to as a second shipment. The initial shipment for ME2 was 2 million worldwide. The latest numbers we have (May, 2010) are 1.6 million sold through to consumers. They haven't sold through the initial shipment yet considering that number also includes digital download sales. Five months after release (May) and that's a lot of hard copies still sitting on shelves somewhere.

You do realize those figures are for JAN - MARCH.

We haven't had any numbers for April,  May, June or July.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 25 juillet 2010 - 06:10 .

[IoCaster]

InvaderErl wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

First month for ME=472.8K
Second month for ME=401K

First month for ME2=572.1K
Second month for ME2=246.5K

The first month opened up stronger than ME2's first month, that is a fact. I don't know what the second month has to do with it - the second month has nothing to do with the marketing unless you are trying to say less people brought ME2 over all.

The second month is included to show that sales were basically even before they both dropped off the sales chart. Very simple really and marketing was ongoing through the period.

InvaderErl wrote...
ME2 was released on PC this time as opposed to ME1's XBOX only release and NPD does not include PC retail sales in their figures. Additionally, looking about for some research I stumbled onto this article from just a few days ago, NPD has just begun to track digital PC sales and they discovered:

NPD now tracks PC game digital downloads, finds that they make up nearly 50 percent of all sales


So the ME2 NPD numbers listed are far from the total picture.

The EA financial report numbers are what we've got for ME2. They reported 1.6 million sold through to consumers of an initial shipment of 2 million. If you've got more recent numbers then share them. Just claiming that we don't have better data doesn't get you anything. You can believe that ME2 sold 3, 5 or 10 million if you want to but without producing some evidence it's meaningless.

InvaderErl wrote...

IoCaster wrote...
I don't know why you're bringing Fallout 3 into the discussion. They're completely different games. Fallout 3 is an FPS, open world style RPG. They also shipped 4.7 million copies of Fallout 3 as compared to 2 million for ME2. Huh?

Shipped does not equal sold to customers, which is what we are talking about.

In that case Mass Effect 2 shipped 2 million in one week when compared to Dragon Age which we know shipped its 3 million figure after a headstart of 3 months.

Fallout 3 is a single-player only RPG experience with shooter elements/Mass Effect is a single player only RPG experience with shooter elements and they sold to customers similiarly regardless of units shipped.

Outside of financial report and NPD data, shipped numbers are what we get. These games are heavily front loaded with their sales. They're off the charts within the first couple of months. That means that sales slow to a trickle after the initial rush. If they were sustaining strong sales they would still be charting. Are you implying that ME2 is still selling strong and that a second shipment has gone out? If you are then give us something to work with. Some sales information from a reputable source would be nice.

Here's an example: According to ELSPA ME has sold better than 200K (gold) in the UK. ME2 has crossed 100K (silver) in UK sales. We don't know when or if ME will cross the 300K sales mark in the UK. We don't when or if ME2 will cross the 200K sales mark in the UK. It's a cumulative process over time but it's something to work with. Give us something to work with if you'd like to make a convincing argument that ME2 has sold through it's initial shipment of 2 million and is sustaining strong sales to date.

As far as Fallout 3 is concerned it is basically irrelevant to this discussion about ME2 sales. They're completely different games and in any case Fallout 3 shipped 4.7 million worldwide. That's a heck of a lot more of an initial shipment than 2 million. Are you accusing Bethesda of colluding with retailers to stuff the channel with an excessive number of copies of Fallout 3? For what purpose? Shelf space at retailers for video games is extremely limited. The retailers are very cautious about overestimating demand. Do you have proof that ME2 has outsold Fallout 3? If you've got it, share it. Otherwise, what's your point? Just in case you're interested, according to ELSPA, Fallout 3 has earned a platinum award for selling better than 300K in the UK. That's ~100K better than ME and ~200K better than ME2 to date.

InvaderErl wrote...

IoCaster wrote...
The initial shipment number is based on the expectation of retailers. The retailers order however many copies they think that they'll be able to move. If EA/BioWare thought that they could sell 10 million copies it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference because the retailers make the call on how many copies they order. If they sell all of their copies then they order some more and that would be referred to as a second shipment. The initial shipment for ME2 was 2 million worldwide. The latest numbers we have (May, 2010) are 1.6 million sold through to consumers. They haven't sold through the initial shipment yet considering that number also includes digital download sales. Five months after release (May) and that's a lot of hard copies still sitting on shelves somewhere.

You do realize those figures are for up to MARCH.

We haven't had any numbers since then.

That's what we've got to work with and unless ME2 demand has suddenly spiked recently the trend has been established. Again I ask you to provide some numbers to work with if you've got some proof that ME2 has recently surged in sales. From all available information that I've been able to dig up ME2 is selling at or slightly below the rate that ME did. I know that quite a few people on this forum like to believe that ME2 sold like gangbusters, but the data doesn't seem to back that up. I'd be perfectly happy to find out that it actually did set the charts on fire because, regardless of my dissatisfaction with the story/plot, I do think that it's a great game.

Modifié par IoCaster, 25 juillet 2010 - 06:38 .