555 réponses à ce sujet

[Dracotamer]

Unfortunately the 2nd game did have a lot of plot wholes and lack thereof.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Pacifien wrote...

The concept art for the Human Reaper seemed to indicate it was a vary basic skeleton we saw in comparison to what it would have been upon completion. But still, it would have had a distinctly unique design compared to the other Reapers, I think. I'm hoping EDI's prediction that what we were seeing as some form of Reaper reproduction is complete bull****. She's just an AI, what does she know.

A lot of characters in Mass Effect know things they should not know, but apparently do simply for the sake of either moving the plot forward or explaining things to the player. I believe even one of the writers once pointed this out.

[MadInfiltrator]

I think the picture is of Harbinger.

[Christmas Ape]

Too long a thread to do a quote-and-post from the beginning, so:

Because the intro video represents a sudden change to a minor key, bad things happen to the hero, and we didn't get spoon-fed.



The intro key change is the Reaper response to ME1. Shepard, at great risk and the cost of a crew member or two, broke the Reaper advance guard who has apparently been cocking it up for the better part of two thousand years but had finally managed to get to the cusp of triumph. The Reaper counter-move destroys her ship and kills her - more or less. It reminds you that for all your success in the first chapter, your enemy is orders of magnitude more powerful and more prepared. They didn't even send a Reaper, they sent their errand boys, and in one move robbed Shepard of every single gain she'd made except knowing what the Reapers are. You wake up isolated from your old life, robbed of your trusted crew, and in hock to the Devil - who, at the moment, is on the side of the angels in his own way. Movement in a minor key; somber, looming, uneasy. It's supposed to be jarring.



'Gathering intel on the Reapers' is the thrust of ME2. 'Why are they kidnapping whole colonial populations? Why only humans? How do they accomplish it?' That Shepard didn't climb inside a piece of Sovereign's corpse, ride it out into dark space, and fvcking ask them is in my eyes a credit to the series. Evidently, some mileage may vary on this, and if you've got a third answer between 'investigate their current agenda' and 'ask them in person' by all means suggest it. I am, personally, not that offended that nobody left a copy of Encyclopedia Reaper out on a coffee table in the Collector base that gave us all the answers. That would have been retarded. The Reapers aren't a goddamn Bond villain, they're not going to explain themselves to the hero.



Why the team? Because Shepard can't do this alone (solo gameplay videos notwithstanding), and the mission parameters are up in the air until the very end, so cover all the bases. Technical specialists, a pair of extremely powerful biotics, infiltrators, hardened combat soldiers - a dozen of the galaxy's experts all ready to die. The team isn't about 'fighting the Reapers' per se, it's about 'backing up Shepard no matter the cost'. To make them something other than playing pieces, their personal stories occupy a large chunk of gameplay. The circumstances you find them in and the last piece of their lives that they need to deal with (Jacob aside) better define them, in some cases casting them as symbolic for their species' present condition (I'm thinking Legion and Grunt here especially), highlighting upcoming conflict in the setting itself, or furthering the undercurrent of defining Shepard's relationship with Cerberus (something that so defines the game it's the most-debated decision point and we got a DLC to that end). They're as much individual plot devices as characters, and while this may leave the story feeling unfocused it permits it to cover a lot of ground.



The Collectors-are-repurposed-Protheans establishes that the Reaper agenda goes beyond a single-minded 'spring cleaning' of the galaxy every so often, and that the Keepers are not their only organic pawns left behind; what else did they plant here to keep an eye on things? It would have incredibly simple for the Reapers to simply construct a machine race for the same purposes, but they didn't. Clearly, for all their arrogance, organics mean something to the Reapers even beyond reproduction.

They also prove Saren was right in all the worst possible ways.



Personally, I came out of it feeling better informed but with all new questions, connected to the NPCs in a way only ME1 offered before, and pleased we're no longer on the defensive. We hit back, our way, and made them take notice. All in all, a fitting continuation of the trilogy. I don't feel the need to blow up a Reaper in every chapter.

[theelementslayer]

Couldnt have said it better myself Christmas Ape, that is exactly how I felt in ME2

[Palathas]

Actually, reading Christmas Ape's post made me realise something. I'll have to go back and play ME1 to be 100% sure but that Prothean ruin that you unlock with the key that the Consort gives you describes a caveman having something inserted in his head. I pretty sure that it suggested that he was actively being monitored. At first I thought it was by the Protheans but knowing what I know now I don't think it was, I think it may have been the Collectors and they've been measuring up humans for "acquisition" for millennia....

[cbutz]

Palathas wrote...

Actually, reading Christmas Ape's post made me realise something. I'll have to go back and play ME1 to be 100% sure but that Prothean ruin that you unlock with the key that the Consort gives you describes a caveman having something inserted in his head. I pretty sure that it suggested that he was actively being monitored. At first I thought it was by the Protheans but knowing what I know now I don't think it was, I think it may have been the Collectors and they've been measuring up humans for "acquisition" for millennia....

You know, I always assumed it was the Protheans as well. It could very well be one of the collectors or a Reaper enslaved race...something to chew on until Me 3 I say...

[Christmas Ape]

Palathas wrote...
Actually, reading Christmas Ape's post made me realise something. I'll have to go back and play ME1 to be 100% sure but that Prothean ruin that you unlock with the key that the Consort gives you describes a caveman having something inserted in his head. I pretty sure that it suggested that he was actively being monitored. At first I thought it was by the Protheans but knowing what I know now I don't think it was, I think it may have been the Collectors and they've been measuring up humans for "acquisition" for millennia....

Everything you remember is correct. However, it is titled 'Prothean Ruin' and bears many more similarities to other Prothean sites in the game than any Collector locations. Additionally, the orb suspended in the middle greatly resembles the Prothean artifact you recover in Firewalker.

[Sajuro]

Speaking of which, what is the possible purpose of that giant silvery orb? Did it have a practical purpose or was it just there to show that the Protheans could make giant silver orbs that could shrink to an impossible size. Was it made by a douchebag Prothean who bet his friends he could fit the giant silver orb in his pocket before shrinking it down into its small version?

[Palathas]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Everything you remember is correct. However, it is titled 'Prothean Ruin' and bears many more similarities to other Prothean sites in the game than any Collector locations. Additionally, the orb suspended in the middle greatly resembles the Prothean artifact you recover in Firewalker.

The Prothean are the Collectors and although genetically altered, surely they know how Prothean tech. is used, considering most of it's actually Reaper tech. or at least based on Reaper tech. It seems plausable that it was left there to trigger something on the first species that has the intelligence and curiosity to try to use it. *shrugs*

Yeah, I did notice that the shiny orb looked very much the same. No key this time though.

[theelementslayer]

Palathas wrote...

Actually, reading Christmas Ape's post made me realise something. I'll have to go back and play ME1 to be 100% sure but that Prothean ruin that you unlock with the key that the Consort gives you describes a caveman having something inserted in his head. I pretty sure that it suggested that he was actively being monitored. At first I thought it was by the Protheans but knowing what I know now I don't think it was, I think it may have been the Collectors and they've been measuring up humans for "acquisition" for millennia....

Which key does the consort give you? I cant remember this in ME1 and Im sure I played it 100% twice before. Maybe Im just mistaking something for it. Oh and is this the consort in the citidel, or am I again mistaken?

[Christmas Ape]

Palathas wrote...
The Prothean are the Collectors

As Mordin suggests, not really. Their fundamental Prothean-ness has been replaced. In many ways, as the last living recipients of the Cipher, Shiala and Shepard are closer to being Protheans than the Collectors.

and although genetically altered, surely they know how Prothean tech. is used, considering most of it's actually Reaper tech. or at least based on Reaper tech.

Granted.

It seems plausable that it was left there to trigger something on the first species that has the intelligence and curiosity to try to use it. *shrugs*

I agree, but I think it was the Protheans pre-Reapers who did so. They were clearly aware we were an evolving sapient species - I think was the equivalent of "Welcome to interstellar civilization. Well done. Come look for us."
Though it's unknown if that meant "Finally we're not alone" or "So we can blow you up too".

Yeah, I did notice that the shiny orb looked very much the same. No key this time though.

No, but it's like an executive toy for Shepard's cabin. I like it. I play with it sometimes.

EDIT:

theelementslayer wrote...
Which key does the consort give you? I cant remember this in ME1 and Im
sure I played it 100% twice before. Maybe Im just mistaking something
for it. Oh and is this the consort in the citidel, or am I again
mistaken?

She calls it a 'trinket', and hands it over if you take Septimus' evidence to the elcor diplomat before speaking to her. And yes, that Consort.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:06 .

[theelementslayer]

Christmas Ape wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...
Which key does the consort give you? I cant remember this in ME1 and Im
sure I played it 100% twice before. Maybe Im just mistaking something
for it. Oh and is this the consort in the citidel, or am I again
mistaken?

She calls it a 'trinket', and hands it over if you take Septimus' evidence to the elcor diplomat before speaking to her. And yes, that Consort.

Ill have to replay that part I always do the consorts thing first and have septimus talk to her

[phatpat63]

I just finished taking a new character through both games, and the story, if not the gameplay, of the first game is far, far superior in my opinion. The first has a very compelling plot with solid motivation for the player, a sweeping scope, consistently well-written characters, and all while maintaining a feeling of freedom of choice. The second game's story sacrifices scale, impetus, and freedom to concentrate instead on hit and miss characters who, in spite of being the focus of the game, are not generally more developed than the characters in ME1. Part of this is the game suffering from being the middle of a trilogy, but the larger part is just crap writing. And yes, ME2 has some pretty big plot holes, they by no means ruin the game on their own, but it's not the end of the world if you admit they exist either.

[Iakus]

[quoteChristmas Ape wrote...

Too long a thread to do a quote-and-post from the beginning, so:
Because the intro video represents a sudden change to a minor key, bad things happen to the hero, and we didn't get spoon-fed.

The intro key change is the Reaper response to ME1. Shepard, at great risk and the cost of a crew member or two, broke the Reaper advance guard who has apparently been cocking it up for the better part of two thousand years but had finally managed to get to the cusp of triumph. The Reaper counter-move destroys her ship and kills her - more or less. It reminds you that for all your success in the first chapter, your enemy is orders of magnitude more powerful and more prepared. They didn't even send a Reaper, they sent their errand boys, and in one move robbed Shepard of every single gain she'd made except knowing what the Reapers are. You wake up isolated from your old life, robbed of your trusted crew, and in hock to the Devil - who, at the moment, is on the side of the angels in his own way. Movement in a minor key; somber, looming, uneasy. It's supposed to be jarring.

[/quote]

While I would have preferred a more gradual slide into darkness and isolation, I admit, ME 2 had a nice premise, but...

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

'Gathering intel on the Reapers' is the thrust of ME2. 'Why are they kidnapping whole colonial populations? Why only humans? How do they accomplish it?' That Shepard didn't climb inside a piece of Sovereign's corpse, ride it out into dark space, and fvcking ask them is in my eyes a credit to the series. Evidently, some mileage may vary on this, and if you've got a third answer between 'investigate their current agenda' and 'ask them in person' by all means suggest it. I am, personally, not that offended that nobody left a copy of Encyclopedia Reaper out on a coffee table in the Collector base that gave us all the answers. That would have been retarded. The Reapers aren't a goddamn Bond villain, they're not going to explain themselves to the hero.
[/quote]

When exactly did any investigatioon happen? We know the Collectors were the ones kidnapping colonists after the first mission. But when did any intel get gathered afterwards? The Collector ship?  Shepard scanned a few bodies and suddenly EDI, the Dea ex Machina has a big infodump on how the Collectors are debased Protheans (who needs to ask the Reapers anything when you've got EDI?)


Gathering intel would have involved studying the history of the Collectors. Talking to people that have had dealings with them. I admit they took a swipe at it with Okeer, but see how well that turned out, and they never tried again. Maybe they could have hacked files, even government files, to get records on Collector activities.

Think of how it would have made more sense in recruiting if: a recording of a biotic fighting Collectors showed him putting up a biotic field that seemed to shield him from their technology temporarily. Hmm, maybe we should recruit a couple of powerful biotics?

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...
Why the team? Because Shepard can't do this alone (solo gameplay videos notwithstanding), and the mission parameters are up in the air until the very end, so cover all the bases. Technical specialists, a pair of extremely powerful biotics, infiltrators, hardened combat soldiers - a dozen of the galaxy's experts all ready to die. The team isn't about 'fighting the Reapers' per se, it's about 'backing up Shepard no matter the cost'. To make them something other than playing pieces, their personal stories occupy a large chunk of gameplay. The circumstances you find them in and the last piece of their lives that they need to deal with (Jacob aside) better define them, in some cases casting them as symbolic for their species' present condition (I'm thinking Legion and Grunt here especially), highlighting upcoming conflict in the setting itself, or furthering the undercurrent of defining Shepard's relationship with Cerberus (something that so defines the game it's the most-debated decision point and we got a DLC to that end). They're as much individual plot devices as characters, and while this may leave the story feeling unfocused it permits it to cover a lot of ground.
[/quote]

The problem here is, the squadmates are playing pieces. Their personal stories and loyalty missions are perfectly adequate, even quite good in a few cases, for a standard "personal story subplot". But if it's to be the whole point in the game, it's insufficient.

Why? Because the characters don't change or interact. Force Zaed to acknowledge he's on a team now and has to put the needs of the group above his own? What does that accomplish? Help Garrus kill Sidonis, or convince him to let im live? Does he act any differently? If you bring Jack along, does she egg him on to shoot? Does Samara comment that this against some Code of hers? (answer to both: no) Do the characters, in fact, show much personality at all outside their own individual storyarcs? Wen you get down to it, the squadmates are less a team forged by Shepard to do battle against the Collectors than pieces on a chessboard for Shepard (or maybe TIM) to move around.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...
The Collectors-are-repurposed-Protheans establishes that the Reaper agenda goes beyond a single-minded 'spring cleaning' of the galaxy every so often, and that the Keepers are not their only organic pawns left behind; what else did they plant here to keep an eye on things? It would have incredibly simple for the Reapers to simply construct a machine race for the same purposes, but they didn't. Clearly, for all their arrogance, organics mean something to the Reapers even beyond reproduction.
They also prove Saren was right in all the worst possible ways.
[/quote]

The established that, but in an extremely bizzare way that better have a better explanation than "human smoothies" Maybe I'm being pessimistic and it'll be a great explanation. But between that and Terminator Kong, my faith is badly shaken

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

Personally, I came out of it feeling better informed but with all new questions, connected to the NPCs in a way only ME1 offered before, and pleased we're no longer on the defensive. We hit back, our way, and made them take notice. All in all, a fitting continuation of the trilogy. I don't feel the need to blow up a Reaper in every chapter.[/quote]

Umm, we did blow up a Reaper in this chapter. A baby one, true, but it was a load-bearing boss, to cite another cliche.

I came out of this game wondering what happened exactly. Did anything I do here matter, or will it all be swept away like my ME 1 choices? I have a squad, but a squad that doesn't interact. I've got a ship, but one TIM has wired with bugs, so who's to say he doesn't have explosives here too? Who'll put me back together then? Terra Firma? Aria? Blood Pack? Oh and we still have no effective way of fighting against actual Reapers. Unless we're willing to fling 1-2 fleets per Reaper at them.

On the plus side: Yay, I apparantly got evidence that Reapers exist! Oh wait, I nearly got flattened by a piece of one in the Council Chamber in the last game, and they still don't believe me. Maybe I should just hold off until a space-Cthulhu carves "Harbringer was here" on the side of the Citadel with a thanix cannon. maybe they'l talk to me then. We're not on the defensive because everyone's conveniently fogotten there was an enemy to defend against!

[Christmas Ape]

[quote]iakus wrote...
While I would have preferred a more gradual slide into darkness and isolation, I admit, ME 2 had a nice premise, but...[/quote]Which I feel would have involved a lot of go-nowhere missions to talk to people who can't help you, occupying the first ~hour of the game with primarily frustration. Not the best intro, but maybe they'd have found a way to make it work.
[quote]When exactly did any investigation happen? We know the Collectors were the ones kidnapping colonists after the first mission. But when did any intel get gathered afterwards? The Collector ship?  Shepard scanned a few bodies and suddenly EDI, the Dea ex Machina has a big infodump on how the Collectors are debased Protheans (who needs to ask the Reapers anything when you've got EDI?)[/quote]Freedom's Progress, efforts to recruit Okeer, bringing Grunt on board (to a degree he is Collector technology), the Collector Cruiser, the Derelict Reaper, everything you acquire from the Collector Base. That they're hard to investigate doesn't change that intel is gathered.
Consider that the Collectors have been around for ~50,000 years, far longer than the present galactic civilization. It's fair to assume that within the first few centuries of settlement of the Terminus Systems, perhaps as early as the first 'rebirth' of Omega, the Collectors began making contact and purchasing samples in pursuit of the Reaper Agenda. And that's all anyone has known about them for a couple thousand years. The rachni were better understood than the Collectors. All contact with the Collectors, up until the suicide mission, has been on their schedule and direction. That's their 'narrative right', dwelling beyond the impassable Omega 4 relay; to only be part of galactic events when they choose to be. But now every time they show up, Shepard's there, sometimes because they wanted it that way.
As to EDI, she's inside the Collector Cruiser firewalls for an eternity (to an AI), and it's fair to assume she's downloading as much data as possible. She tracks the navigational origin of the ship, deciphers their experimentation on the colonists and themselves, unravels the flaw in the distress signal...she's an AI. She works fast. That's what they do. Her entire job is information management for the Lazarus Cell, primarily in terms of security. Additionally, the point of similarity she identifies is unique to the Protheans, so it's hardly a thorough scientific inquiry in time-lapse. That's Mordin's job later when he tells you how they're debased.
[quote]Gathering intel would have involved studying the history of the Collectors. Talking to people that have had dealings with them. I admit they took a swipe at it with Okeer, but see how well that turned out, and they never tried again. Maybe they could have hacked files, even government files, to get records on Collector activities.

Think of how it would have made more sense in recruiting if: a recording of a biotic fighting Collectors showed him putting up a biotic field that seemed to shield him from their technology temporarily. Hmm, maybe we should recruit a couple of powerful biotics?[/quote]Here's the thing: for all the parodies over in the other thread, this isn't CSI: Terminus Systems. Shepard's not an investigator, she's the Tactical Response Unit. The data-mining, clue-sifting, records-hacking part of the investigation is handled off-camera by Cerberus operatives, and tIM gives you 90% of what they've discovered when you first discuss the Collectors with him: "Not much." It's not really Shepard's job to go picking through databases for Collector previous appearances; it's her job to show up and kick them in the teeth when they appear again.
[quote]The problem here is, the squadmates are playing pieces. Their personal stories and loyalty missions are perfectly adequate, even quite good in a few cases, for a standard "personal story subplot". But if it's to be the whole point in the game, it's insufficient.[/quote]A matter of opinion. A few short films in sequence is not by nature a "lesser" experience than a feature-length picture. It is a different one. If you don't like the shift in focus, that's one thing, but preference does not objective judgment make.
[quote]Why? Because the characters don't change or interact. Force Zaed to acknowledge he's on a team now and has to put the needs of the group above his own? What does that accomplish? Help Garrus kill Sidonis, or convince him to let im live? Does he act any differently? If you bring Jack along, does she egg him on to shoot? Does Samara comment that this against some Code of hers? (answer to both: no) Do the characters, in fact, show much personality at all outside their own individual storyarcs? Wen you get down to it, the squadmates are less a team forged by Shepard to do battle against the Collectors than pieces on a chessboard for Shepard (or maybe TIM) to move around.[/quote]Well, there's the logistics of it; the game is already quite large, with a lot of decision points and a dozen squadmembers. To even give every squadmate a comment on every other loyalty mission would be a huge amount of VA work to record, let alone the cascading responses from the primary squadmate, Shepard's full range of responses, the characters who may respond differently depending on if you've done their loyalty mission or not; it's a mind-boggling amount of potential animations to make and lines to record. It would be nice, but it would be six more months in production, a third disc, and another $20 on the sticker.
Additionally, just because Dragon Age happened to do teammates quite well does not make it the singular standard by which NPC interaction should be judged. Shepard is cast as the kind of leader people naturally defer to unless they feel quite strongly about something, while the unvoiced up-for-interpretation Warden is mostly defined by interaction with the other characters. It's a different style of troupe-based gameplay.
To a final point: Some might well have survived the suicide mission and (based on everything I've heard about ME3 starting on the heels of ME2) will return in the next chapter. Perhaps we should reserve judgment on the full length of their character arc until it's, well, complete.
For a video game, they're (by and large) a fairly compelling series of decisions. On par with the rachni queen, and better than the ME1 'loyalty missions'.
[quote]The established that, but in an extremely bizzare way that better have a better explanation than "human smoothies" Maybe I'm being pessimistic and it'll be a great explanation. But between that and Terminator Kong, my faith is badly shaken.[/quote]It'll be good space opera, but it'll still be space opera. Don't go hoping for something it never promised you.
And unless every metallic recreation of the human skeleton is a 'Terminator', this is simply belaboring a ridiculous point. Yeah, it looks a little like a T-800. So do human skeletons with silver spraypaint and attached hydraulics. It's a pretty basic design.
[quote]Umm, we did blow up a Reaper in this chapter. A baby one, true, but it was a load-bearing boss, to cite another cliche.[/quote]Sort of. We stopped one from being built. It turned out to be somewhat active.
[quote]I came out of this game wondering what happened exactly. Did anything I do here matter, or will it all be swept away like my ME 1 choices?[/quote]Did you feel certain you'd changed the entire scope of the second game during the last bit of ME1? There's still a Council, it just changes who's running it (and thus how likely war with the turians will be). The Alliance is still around, Anderson's still the only person who takes your bad dreams at face value. A certain baseline experience is necessary for a mass-market game.
[quote]I have a squad, but a squad that doesn't interact.[/quote]Bar a couple elevator conversations, the argument on Virmire, the flirting in the Wards, and whoever else you bring telling Liara to focus on the real problems instead of chatting with Vigil, neither did the ME1 squad. There are enough talkboxes with responses in ME2 to equal that much conversation, and at least this time three of your squadmates who have no reason to just get along don't spend the entire game in the same room without ever communicating.
[quote]I've got a ship, but one TIM has wired with bugs, so who's to say he doesn't have explosives here too? Who'll put me back together then? Terra Firma? Aria? Blood Pack?[/quote]Why would they bring you back just to kill you? tIM's a pragmatist before he's petty; even a rogue Shepard with a stolen ship
a) has done the impossible
completed the stated goals of Project Lazarus
c) opposes the Reapers
d) is of benefit to humanity
Even off his leash you're more valuable to his ideals alive than dead.
[quote]Oh and we still have no effective way of fighting against actual Reapers. Unless we're willing to fling 1-2 fleets per Reaper at them.[/quote]Guess we've got something to do in ME3, then. Good.
[quote]On the plus side: Yay, I apparantly got evidence that Reapers exist! Oh wait, I nearly got flattened by a piece of one in the Council Chamber in the last game, and they still don't believe me. Maybe I should just hold off until a space-Cthulhu carves "Harbringer was here" on the side of the Citadel with a thanix cannon. maybe they'l talk to me then. We're not on the defensive because everyone's conveniently fogotten there was an enemy to defend against![/quote]Yep, politics still sucks for the operator on the ground trying to actually make people safer. Kind of the way of the world. Let's hope Cerberus' Alliance influence and Anderson's efforts pay off.

EDIT for a bit of formatting, wrote "Reapers" where "Collectors" was intended once, removed "done completed" in favor of actual English.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 12 juillet 2010 - 07:30 .

[adam_grif]

I've been seeing lately a lot of criticism towards the plot of the second game. I feel like all of a sudden, people are just turning on Mass Effect 2 because they have far off, beloved memories of the first, and would bring down the second to justify that.

I've been hating on the plot since like 1 week after release, and so have a lot of people. If people hating on the plot seems "new" to you, then you can't have been around very long.



People rightfully criticize the plot, but praise the characters and many of the missions. I feel that the overarching plot of ME2 was awful, and a waste of my time, but the overall experience was still extremely good, and the minute-to-minute story was solid.



To clarify, loyalty missions etc had generally good plots, but the Collector arc was not good.

[Mister Mida]

Hate is a big word and it's used too casually. I don't 'hate' the plot. Although I find it an above average video game plot, I too find that it doens't live up to the plot of the previous game. ME (1) felt to me like '60, '70, '80 old school sci-fi stuff, while ME2 felt more like the modern Battlestar Galactica and other modern sci-fi stuff that has come since the '90. I don't know if the writers/concept artists got inspired by other sci-fi series/films/whatever while writing/designing ME2, but you'd expect some consistincy.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 12 juillet 2010 - 08:28 .

[squee913]

First of all I am in complete agreement with Christmas ape! Mass effect 2 was exsactly what Bioware said it was... a character piece. It may not have advanced the plot too much, but it let you explore the galaxy and the people in it. It gave you a reason to care about saving the galaxy in mass effect 3. It made you care about the people who are going to help shep save the galaxy. I feel mass 2 is about making a living breathing galaxy filled with people you really care about. When you take your surviving squad to fight the reapers in mass 3 you will feel like they are your team and your friends, not just people that said, "Hey, I wanna kill reapers too! let me join you!" Mass 2 (as any second chapter should) sets up a powerful setting and characters you care about for the final confrontation. Imagine if you can loose team members in the final battle. Team members you have been through hell with for two or three games. Imagine what that will be like!



By the by Christmas ape where did you hear mass 3 is on the heels of mass 2? I would love to read that info

[Zulu_DFA]

MadInfiltrator wrote...
- The Story's Angle
  For many people, the first game had the right sci fi feel where everything sort of came through the Council, Shepard's place as a Spectre defined the character, and this one sided approach gave a strong sense of uniformity to the character, and drove home the idea of the "Citadel Society" and it's paramount importance to everything. While taking this more traditional setting for sci fi, it was easy to get people into the universe. But the second game spread out the universe, and explored more of the ins and outs. With a focus on Cerberus, more than one hub world, and prominent roles for merc groups, criminals, black ops, and assassins, this different approach to the same universe leaves the possibility for "purists" to dislike the story.

This is true. And a very good thinking, in fact, considering the "Big Choices" thing and the "3" down the line. Until somebody starts to come up with bright ideas:

Ain't it cool to have Jack bust trhee heavy mechs with her biotics, right out of cryo? Who cares her bioam should have beed confiscated for the term of incarceration?

Ain't it cool to have Shepard haedbutt Gatatog Uvenk? Who cares that it's equal to going to Afganistan, finding one of the two most powerful warlords there (who is twice the size and weight of you) and headbutting him?

Ain't it cool to add some urgency to the game by forcing some missions on the player? Who cares it creates more time paradoxes than it solves?

All this constitutes PLOT HOLES.

And then comes this forced (Yes/Yes) "choice" to test the Reaper IFF, starting with which NOTHING in the plot makes ANY SENSE, even leading to "Kill all remaining colonists on Base" speculations.

MadInfiltrator wrote...
- The Art Style
  Mass Effect 2 features a much more grounded, "filled out", art style than the first game. Shepard's armor seems much moe complete, more robust, and a departure from the first game, which I thought was frankly not the coolest, and every set seemed too uniform. The diversity, and more colorful, fuller costume designs probably reminded people too much of common dress in our time, and less of the future. Bioware embraced contemporry influence more in the second game, and while for most was just a way to see the improved visuals, and gave them a stronger sense of understanding for the universe, a move like this could obviously push some people from recognizing it as a "pure sci fi". For me, and I think most, it did not change how I viewed the universe, it just made it more pleasant to look at. Mass Effect 1 had a lot of, actually, too much, thick white and a sort of dull blue to it.

This is simply not true. Nothing of this.

First, EVERYTHING in ME1 looked more sci-fi-ish, Starting with UI and HUD and ending with the notorious exploration vehicle. while in ME2 everything looks toy-ish.

Armor. Shepard's armor does not look more robust. It looks more glowy with Christmas tree lights. The N7 armor is also not environmentally sealed at neck. The new N7 helmet has some idiotic transparent sections at it's sides, for the "cool looks" I guess, only it's glitched and Shepard's hair texture I seen there, although it was not supposed to. The DLC Armor sets are never used by many people solesy due to the "no helmet toggle" issue. And don't get me even started about companions' fashio show outfits. High heels and clevages in combat - right, that's the pinnacle of sci-fi art.

Understanding the universe. Right. To make it easier now all the aliens speak English (they have accents now), and write it on the walls. And who cares about of couple of retcons, contradiction between the gameplay and the codex, and lousy planet descriptions with Humans all over the Terminus Systems.

Thick white and dull blue. That alone gave ME1 its sci-fi-ish and outlandish flavor. ME2 looks like a Disney Land with a bit of Las Vegas. Glowy, toyish, cartoony.

The main problem with Mass Effect 2 is that it doesn't look like a sequel to ME1. It looks like a sequel to Trey Parker's satire puppet movie Team America: World Police (funny screenshots here). Both in ME2 and Team America aside from the main message "We are the good guys and out to kick some serious butt!" everything else coming on screen is complete and utter farce.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
The concept art for the Human Reaper seemed to indicate it was a vary basic skeleton we saw in comparison to what it would have been upon completion. But still, it would have had a distinctly unique design compared to the other Reapers, I think. I'm hoping EDI's prediction that what we were seeing as some form of Reaper reproduction is complete bull****. She's just an AI, what does she know.

A lot of characters in Mass Effect know things they should not know, but apparently do simply for the sake of either moving the plot forward or explaining things to the player. I believe even one of the writers once pointed this out.

So the writers create the plot holes on purpose? Somebody, call Smudboy, we gotta tell him that!!!

This, BTW, supports the supposition that Mass Effect 2 is basically an intentional comical work.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 juillet 2010 - 08:51 .

[Christmas Ape]

squee913 wrote...
By the by Christmas ape where did you hear mass 3 is on the heels of mass 2? I would love to read that info

I dunno, internet?
Less glibly, I'm not 100% certain I could find it again. It was here, though, and sparked by a discussion about the level 30 cap, which supposed to put you right where they wanted you for ME3. I didn't log it at the time because, well, I don't usually log these sorts of things so much as recall them.

[adam_grif]

Mister Mida wrote...

Hate is a big word and it's used too casually. I don't 'hate' the plot. Although I find it an above average video game plot, I too find that it doens't live up to the plot of the previous game.

I think the biggest problem is that the story is disposable, we learn only one minor thing about the Reapers (they melt people to reproduce), and the plot simply isn't necessary. The reapers are coming! Well, they were coming at the end of ME1 too. It introduces a bunch of characters who might form the backbone of ME3 (if they live), but it would have been nice to have a real story behind it.

On deeper analysis, there is no consequence for failure. The Collectors have one ship, and need to invade Earth to complete their Reaper. Their one ship is a complete pushover. It can be destroyed by any one of the hundreds of cruisers that the Alliance has. There's zero chance they'll succeed. The alliance already started taking measures to stop them (towers etc), and it honestly can't have gone on for much longer.

You lose, they still don't win. Big deal? You saved a few fringe colonies. That's nice, but hardly material for a game like this, especially coming off the cusp of the OH MY GOD GALAXY IS AT STAKE WE'RE ALL DOOMED plot from the first game.

Modifié par adam_grif, 12 juillet 2010 - 09:02 .

[Gibb_Garrus]

adam_grif wrote...

I think the biggest problem is that the story is dispoable, we learn only one minor thing about the Reapers (they melt people to reproduce), and the plot simply isn't necessary. The reapers are coming! Well, they were coming at the end of ME1 too. It introduces a bunch of characters who might form the backbone of ME3 (if they live), but it would have been nice to have a real story behind it.

What you just said here is further proof that ME 2 characters will be a big part of ME 3. Nothing was learnt about the main plot of Mass effect in 2, except that the reapers are coming, they were doing that at the end on ME 1 like you said. So i'm pretty sure that the POINT of 2 was to introduce many characters that would be a big part of 3. If the characters are just reduced to mere cameos, Mass effect 2 had no point at all in the series.

[didymos1120]

iakus wrote...
Umm, we did blow up a Reaper in this chapter. A baby one, true, but it was a load-bearing boss, to cite another cliche.

What?  It's not a load-bearing boss. Or not much of one, anyway. In fact it's pretty much exactly in opposition to the concept. For starters, when you first see it, it's suspended from a relatively weak support structure. It's a load being borne. Next, there's the fact that  most of that battleground is composed of those flying hexagonal platforms, which are attached to a central pillar which is in turn only attached to the base at its base.  I.e., hardly a crucial structural element.

The only architectural havoc attributable to the Reaper Larva occurs when you finally put it down for good: it collapses directly on top of the platforms, then falls and explodes. Sensibly enough, the shocks upset the platforms you're standing on, and knock some other debris loose.  However, the central pillar can be seen, perfectly intact, as the formerly attached platforms, including the one you're on, are scattered and sent flying off.  So, there's the total extent of its "load-bearing boss" qualities.

It's still a rather poor conceptural fit though, because during that whole fight it was the platform/pillar combo that was supporting the Reaper Larva, not vice versa.  And, the rest of the actual Collector base (excepting the wall your platform gets stuck in) is just fine and dandy during most of your escape.  It isn't until after the reactor overload you inititated occurs that stuff begins to fall apart.  If the Reaper Larva truly were a load-bearing boss, then keeping the base wouldn't have been possible.  The place would just start falling apart immediately after you killed it. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 juillet 2010 - 09:07 .

[phordicus]

maybe i should replay ME2. apparently there's a plot or something?  i must've skipped that mission.

Modifié par phordicus, 12 juillet 2010 - 09:00 .