555 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

theelementslayer wrote...
The way they set it up I think that they were meant to survive, or at least some were, why else would they make your choices effect the outcome when they could have just cutscened it, much easier in the way of a programmers eyes. This squad is meant to be for the reapers, and the collectors were just the first step. The opening and closing cutscenes both really reinforce this I believe. Miranda at the very beginning saying that the reapers are still out there and if they lose shepard humanity just might follow, they arent worried about the collectors as much as they are the reapers. Sure the collectors are abducting colonies but 10 000out of a few trillion-I think thats the population of humanity by now-really isnt too much. Especially on the fringes of the terminus.

The whole point of ME2 was the Suicide Mission, and its outcome was their selling point.  They reinforced that you could die.  They also stated if you die, you can't import your Shepard, so it does imply that people can live.  It doesn't imply anything with the sequel.  The argument for having a team for the sequel is even worse for getting one in ME2.

And at the end when shepard is walking through her ship and her crew is looking at her/saluting her/doing whatever it is to acknoledge her it seems they know they are in for the rest of it.

The rest of what?  Shepard never stated anything after the Suicide Mission, and no one signed up for anything after the Suicide Mission.  Some characters would want to stay, and the rest deliberately want to leave.

Also bioware let us have control over the ship at the end, after the suicide mission with the whole crew that survived, if they were in it only for the suicide mission wouldnt some leave right after. No they will follow shepard because she gained their trust and they know they have to win it.

So you can buy DLC.

Nah I think this was very well done. At the end of the first you were the top of the food chain, just killed a reaper. This got the reapers attention so they decided to put shepard in her place and try to kill the threat before it got out of control. They did kill her and the alliance left her for dead while TIM, knowing what would happen if she died, brought her back. And now becasue of that she owes TIM and no shes not the biggest thing in the galaxy, I thought the darker second part conveyed it beautifully on how small you actually were in the grand scheme of the war, even this little begining of it

How did the darker second part convey beautiful that Shepard was small in the grand scheme of the war?  (Keep in mind this is Shepard's story, or did I just answer my own question?)

[Soverign 666]

I have a question smudboy are you going to buy ME3?

[ODST 3]

Both plots make the MGS series look like a pile of confused dogsh*t.

Modifié par ODST 3, 13 juillet 2010 - 12:25 .

[didymos1120]

ODST 3 wrote...

Both plots make the MGS series look like a pile of confused dogsh*t.

Yeah, you don't really need ME to figure that out.  Of course, I'm not sure the MGS series was ever really supposed to make much sense to begin with.

[ADLegend21]

Mass effect is about Commander shepard fighting the reapers. The Reaper Harbinger follows up on the Reaper Soverigns attack by studying the species that killed his brethren so that he doesn't end up like Soverign. While sovereign had the geth at his disposal, Harbinger has the collectors. While you killed saren (and killed sovereigns since they were linked) Harbinger didn't repeat Soverigns mistake by staying linked to his dying servents body (releasing control just as the collector General is killed by whatever the player chooses to do with the base. it's basically Mass effect with alot more character develoment and team building. oh wait it's Mass effect 2 the sequel!  HOLY CRAP!

[IoCaster]

theelementslayer wrote...

IoCaster wrote...
I'm sure that Shepard is meant to survive but I'm not so certain about the 'elite' badasses. It's not like they have an essential part to play in ME3 or anything.

The way they set it up I think that they were meant to survive, or at least some were, why else would they make your choices effect the outcome when they could have just cutscened it, much easier in the way of a programmers eyes. This squad is meant to be for the reapers, and the collectors were just the first step. The opening and closing cutscenes both really reinforce this I believe. Miranda at the very beginning saying that the reapers are still out there and if they lose shepard humanity just might follow, they arent worried about the collectors as much as they are the reapers. Sure the collectors are abducting colonies but 10 000out of a few trillion-I think thats the population of humanity by now-really isnt too much. Especially on the fringes of the terminus.

Which squad members are meant to survive? Which characters can BioWare positively count on to be alive in every gamers save file? If you can name one then that character has a guaranteed chance to play an essential role in ME3. Otherwise they would have to devote resources to create enough generic content that's interchangeable regardless of which character you plug in to that part. Now multiply that times the minimum number of survivors that would satisfy the demands of all the fans. It's not looking pretty is it?

theelementslayer wrote...
And at the end when shepard is walking through her ship and her crew is looking at her/saluting her/doing whatever it is to acknoledge her it seems they know they are in for the rest of it.

Also bioware let us have control over the ship at the end, after the suicide mission with the whole crew that survived, if they were in it only for the suicide mission wouldnt some leave right after. No they will follow shepard because she gained their trust and they know they have to win it.

They decided very early in development that they needed to have the ability to continue to play after the end credits so that they could sell a bunch of DLC. They learned that lesson from ME and made sure they wouldn't make the same mistake. Why do you think that Shepard needs two squad members to survive for him to make it out of the base alive? One should be sufficient to pull him to safety. You need two squad members to go on DLC missions with Shepard, so you'll need at least two to survive the suicide mission.

The option for NG+ wasn't originally even supposed to be in the game. They shoehorned it in after they posted a thread on the old board asking for feedback and most of us pleaded for it.

theelementslayer wrote...

IoCaster wrote...
Or perhaps BioWare decided to replace the Normandy, force Shepard to work for Cerberus and saddle him with a gang of expendable losers to nursemaid before taking them on a suicide mission. Just saying.

Nah I think this was very well done. At the end of the first you were the top of the food chain, just killed a reaper. This got the reapers attention so they decided to put shepard in her place and try to kill the threat before it got out of control. They did kill her and the alliance left her for dead while TIM, knowing what would happen if she died, brought her back. And now becasue of that she owes TIM and no shes not the biggest thing in the galaxy, I thought the darker second part conveyed it beautifully on how small you actually were in the grand scheme of the war, even this little begining of it

Oh boy, the mother of all plot gimmicks ever. The Lazarus Project!! *DUN* *DUN* *DUN*

Nothing but meat and tubes, but give us an unlimited budget and we can perform miracles. But hey if it works for you don't let me rain on your parade. I'm sincerely happy that you enjoyed the game. Peace.

Modifié par IoCaster, 13 juillet 2010 - 01:15 .

[theelementslayer]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

The whole point of ME2 was the Suicide Mission, and its outcome was their selling point.  They reinforced that you could die.  They also stated if you die, you can't import your Shepard, so it does imply that people can live.  It doesn't imply anything with the sequel.  The argument for having a team for the sequel is even worse for getting one in ME2.

[/quote]

Well I didnt really watch any of the advertising for it so I dont know the selling point. But I disagree with having the team for a sequel is hampering this argument. This story was about the characters, there is really no reason to put this much time and effort into 12 unique characters and just have them leave, let alone this much money for the VA's. It would be much easier I think from a writing/programming perspective to just have 4 or 5 squadmates, those from the 1st game most likely and have repeat missions/side missions or more missions with the collectors and just repeat the same idea of ME1. But they chose to flush out 12 different full characters, from yourself to the merc, to the heartbroken theif, to the misunderstood/traumatized crazy girl. This would be no small feat in writing when you actually start to care about all of them in the end.

[quote]
[quote]
And at the end when shepard is walking through her ship and her crew is looking at her/saluting her/doing whatever it is to acknoledge her it seems they know they are in for the rest of it.
[/quote]
The rest of what?  Shepard never stated anything after the Suicide Mission, and no one signed up for anything after the Suicide Mission.  Some characters would want to stay, and the rest deliberately want to leave.
[/quote]

Sorry didn't fully finish this one oops:pinched:. When talking to the crew, hell having them on the suicide mission there were many references to the reapers, knowing the the collectors were only pawns, or at the very end with EDI and talking about the human reapers. I think that it is eluded to that the squad is talked to about the reapers. And yes some might want to leave but really I cant think of many besides Zaheed and maybe Thane, but hes doing it pro bono so I dont think Thane wants out.

Miranda is a loyalist, and she knows for sure about the reapers, Im sure she'll stay to the end
Jacob follows Miranda it seems
Samara has sworn herself to Shepard for the mission but as a justicar and a person she seems that she feels compelled to stick around, just the scene when Samara almost kisses Shepard makes it feel that after Samaras hundreds of years of isolation she wants to have someone to talk to
Legion is on the side of Shepard and will fight the reapers because he doesnt want the old machines to win
Thane is dying and I think he wants to try to repent his sins
Kasumi, she might be another who leaves but I think she likes the stability of Sheps crew/ship
Garrus follows shep as does Tali
Mordin again I think wants to repent his sins of the genophage and knows his sins, again wants to repent and help out.
Jack is lost and Sheps friendliness and such seems to keep her close
and Grunt says that Shep is his Batllemaster, very important I think because when talking to him he says I have kin, crant, and enemies to kill, what more could I want.

Sure some might leave but the original 10, non-DLC characters seem to have enough reason to stay.

[quote]
[quote]
Also bioware let us have control over the ship at the end, after the suicide mission with the whole crew that survived, if they were in it only for the suicide mission wouldnt some leave right after. No they will follow shepard because she gained their trust and they know they have to win it.
[/quote]
So you can buy DLC.
[/quote]

This might be very well it but I remember Casey Hudson saying that DLC will lead into ME3 so why would they keep the crew on, even the ones who wont stay. Their contract is over, why is Zaheed still following her around?

On another note I cant remember any rpg, non sandbox game allowing you to play after the storyline even with DLC. Fallout didnt, and they had 5 DLC packs released. ME1 didnt, dont know how many DLC packs, DA:O had DLC built into the game and you cant continue the story after the final boss. The only games that I know that do this are like GTA style games, large sandox game that the story really isnt the most important part.

[quote]
[quote]
Nah I think this was very well done. At the end of the first you were the top of the food chain, just killed a reaper. This got the reapers attention so they decided to put shepard in her place and try to kill the threat before it got out of control. They did kill her and the alliance left her for dead while TIM, knowing what would happen if she died, brought her back. And now becasue of that she owes TIM and no shes not the biggest thing in the galaxy, I thought the darker second part conveyed it beautifully on how small you actually were in the grand scheme of the war, even this little begining of it
[/quote]
How did the darker second part convey beautiful that Shepard was small in the grand scheme of the war?  (Keep in mind this is Shepard's story, or did I just answer my own question?)
[/quote]
[/quote]

I think its because Shepards not figuring it out, its TIM shes relying on to give her intel. Shes responding, not going on the offensive like she was in ME1. It showed that Shepard, even with her amazing ability at everything still could be outclassed, in ME1 it seemed that she was catching up to Saren the whole way though. This one it felt like she was trying to peice it together the whole way through showing us that she wasnt the best in the galaxy, the reapers and collectors knew alot more and she was up against them. She didnt have answers like she did in ME1, all she had were questions, and its only a personal opinion but I think it made her seem like less of a impact on the galaxy when she was actually doing more

[maegi46]

To the people with all the nagativity, I can respect your opinions if you don't like the game, that's your

right. Why come into a thread and constantly rehash and bash ME2 over and over though? Shouldn't you all have moved on to the next biggest thing/movie/game whatever floats your collective boats? The funny thing is , like someone else already posted and asked Smudboy, I bet you all buy and play ME3. So stfu already.

[smudboy]

theelementslayer wrote...
Well I didnt really watch any of the advertising for it so I dont know the selling point. But I disagree with having the team for a sequel is hampering this argument. This story was about the characters, there is really no reason to put this much time and effort into 12 unique characters and just have them leave, let alone this much money for the VA's. It would be much easier I think from a writing/programming perspective to just have 4 or 5 squadmates, those from the 1st game most likely and have repeat missions/side missions or more missions with the collectors and just repeat the same idea of ME1. But they chose to flush out 12 different full characters, from yourself to the merc, to the heartbroken theif, to the misunderstood/traumatized crazy girl. This would be no small feat in writing when you actually start to care about all of them in the end.

ME2 is in fact about gathering a team and dealing with their daddy issues, but the point of these characters is specific: to get them suicidal.  They've done their job or died trying.  There's no reason for them to be around.  If people can be killed, then it's obvious if survivors are going to have a role, they're going to either be a cameo, or a generic placeholder that anyone could fill.

They flushed out side characters because they could.  It had nothing to do with the plot of ME2 or the overarching plot of the series.

Miranda is a loyalist, and she knows for sure about the reapers, Im sure she'll stay to the end
Jacob follows Miranda it seems
Samara has sworn herself to Shepard for the mission but as a justicar and a person she seems that she feels compelled to stick around, just the scene when Samara almost kisses Shepard makes it feel that after Samaras hundreds of years of isolation she wants to have someone to talk to
Legion is on the side of Shepard and will fight the reapers because he doesnt want the old machines to win
Thane is dying and I think he wants to try to repent his sins
Kasumi, she might be another who leaves but I think she likes the stability of Sheps crew/ship
Garrus follows shep as does Tali
Mordin again I think wants to repent his sins of the genophage and knows his sins, again wants to repent and help out.
Jack is lost and Sheps friendliness and such seems to keep her close
and Grunt says that Shep is his Batllemaster, very important I think because when talking to him he says I have kin, crant, and enemies to kill, what more could I want.

You're just listing motivations, added some speculation, and some are completely made up.  None of these guarantee squadmates.  For example, if Miranda dies, will Jacob no longer follow?  Samara will leave, as will Kasumi, Zaeed, etc.  I'm not saying anyone wouldn't want to help, or do so in their own way, but this doesn't prove that they'll: 1) be squadmates, 2) have any plot related reason to be there, just like before, 3) have entire optional side quests of any plot essential value.  This is all under the pretense we have a save to import.  I'd imagine no save = nearly everyone gone.  Compare the roles and illogic of the Suicide Mission, where people who are skilled in certain areas aren't as effective as others, and their utility doesn't even make sense, and then imagine an even more complex and contrived magic-role plot essential point, just because they're optional on an optional save file import?  I know BioWare's got the green, but they don't have that much.  Unless they want a colossal break in logic to make illiterate children hurt.

This might be very well it but I remember Casey Hudson saying that DLC will lead into ME3 so why would they keep the crew on, even the ones who wont stay. Their contract is over, why is Zaheed still following her around?

Casey also said this:
"...people will
say 'I want all my characters back from the previous game because
that's what made the first game great.' But when you think about it,
part of what made the previous game great is the process of meeting
those characters for the first time. That has to be part of the
experience too, how you meet new characters."

On another note I cant remember any rpg, non sandbox game allowing you to play after the storyline even with DLC. Fallout didnt, and they had 5 DLC packs released. ME1 didnt, dont know how many DLC packs, DA:O had DLC built into the game and you cant continue the story after the final boss. The only games that I know that do this are like GTA style games, large sandox game that the story really isnt the most important part.

All of which are optional, and would not have any essential plot relative value, nor would be anything substantial if some people bought a $5 DLC add on a few years back.

I think its because Shepards not figuring it out, its TIM shes relying on to give her intel. Shes responding, not going on the offensive like she was in ME1. It showed that Shepard, even with her amazing ability at everything still could be outclassed, in ME1 it seemed that she was catching up to Saren the whole way though. This one it felt like she was trying to peice it together the whole way through showing us that she wasnt the best in the galaxy, the reapers and collectors knew alot more and she was up against them. She didnt have answers like she did in ME1, all she had were questions, and its only a personal opinion but I think it made her seem like less of a impact on the galaxy when she was actually doing more

How is that beautiful?  This is a horrible thing.  It turns Shepard from an active protagonist into a passive one, with no reason to go forward, no plot-motivation, no control over or say in what they're doing.  Sure, we know the goal, but no plan or details are revealed, and worse still, they have no motivation.  There's no fear or cause for alarm, no quickened pace, no personal stake, no Reapers to fight.  Just wait for TIM to tell you what to do, and Pokemon some random fellows for untold reasons to fight our big bad guy eventually somehow.  That's the plot. 

Shepard does not have an amazing ability at everything.  Boy, people accuse me of being an ME1 fanboy.

How the hell was Shepard trying to piece "it" together the whole way through, showing us that she wasn't the best in the galaxy?  WTF is "it"?  There's no "puzzle".  There're no hints, no allusions toward our goal.  It's just TIM: "Shepard, go to point A.  Now point B. etc.  Oh, going on a Suicide Mission, well good luck."

How is being in the dark making Shepard seem like having less an impact on the galaxy, when in fact she was doing more?  I have no idea what you're going on about here.

[IoCaster]

maegi46 wrote...

To the people with all the nagativity, I can respect your opinions if you don't like the game, that's your
right.

Thanks 

maegi46 wrote...
Why come into a thread and constantly rehash and bash ME2 over and over though? Shouldn't you all have moved on to the next biggest thing/movie/game whatever floats your collective boats? The funny thing is , like someone else already posted and asked Smudboy, I bet you all buy and play ME3. So stfu already.

 

[Il Divo]

Pacifien wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
While I can understand disappointment in the lack of expansion and disconnection of some of the concepts introduced in ME1, for all we know, ME3 will have an even greater connection to the story elements of ME2 than it does ME1. Won't really know until details of the plot are leaked.

It is my humble opinion that such an occurance would make for a lousy trilogy.

Well, name a great trilogy.

Come on,people. Has no one mentioned the Bourne Trilogy yet?

[theelementslayer]

ME2 is in fact about gathering a team and dealing with their daddy issues, but the point of these characters is specific: to get them suicidal.  They've done their job or died trying.  There's no reason for them to be around.  If people can be killed, then it's obvious if survivors are going to have a role, they're going to either be a cameo, or a generic placeholder that anyone could fill.

They flushed out side characters because they could.  It had nothing to do with the plot of ME2 or the overarching plot of the series.

Again I dont think they would put that much time and effort into characters if they were just going to kill them off or cameo them next game, I think Bioware knows most of us have played through multiple times and have at least one game with all the characters saved. It just wouldnt make sense from a dev perspective to devote a whole game to characters and then just kill them off. But again, its all a matter of opinion we won't know until the devs release an official statement. Also I disagree that it has nothing to do with the plot. All those loyalty quests might not have had to do with the reapers but it shows how everyone is getting ready for the end, albeit the collectors, reapers, the disease that Thane has, ect.

You're just listing motivations, added some speculation, and some are completely made up.  None of these guarantee squadmates.  For example, if Miranda dies, will Jacob no longer follow?  Samara will leave, as will Kasumi, Zaeed, etc.  I'm not saying anyone wouldn't want to help, or do so in their own way, but this doesn't prove that they'll: 1) be squadmates, 2) have any plot related reason to be there, just like before, 3) have entire optional side quests of any plot essential value.  This is all under the pretense we have a save to import.  I'd imagine no save = nearly everyone gone.  Compare the roles and illogic of the Suicide Mission, where people who are skilled in certain areas aren't as effective as others, and their utility doesn't even make sense, and then imagine an even more complex and contrived magic-role plot essential point, just because they're optional on an optional save file import?  I know BioWare's got the green, but they don't have that much.  Unless they want a colossal break in logic to make illiterate children hurt.

Again, we wont know until the ME3 release what happens. All of this is speculation both my side and yours. Im just trying to prove, or give reason to why they might be staying. And again as I said in my above post most people will have a playthrough with everyone alive, cant see why they wouldnt shell out the extra cash. Bioware just got rated I think the #18th game of all time. Of all systems, like even back when Mario was out in style. I think that is very impressive and with reviews like that Im sure they want to up the next game to be even better. I cant see how they can recruit a team and fight the reapers, it just doesnt make sense from a dev point of view. Maybe its just me having faith in my fellow canadian developers who knows, but I dont think they want to screw us over. THey gave us a whole game to connect to these guys and why would they just toss it out the window?

On another note why would the other people leave like grunt and jack, where are they going to go, Sheps the most family/friends they got, why would they leave?

Casey also said this:
"...people will
say 'I want all my characters back from the previous game because
that's what made the first game great.' But when you think about it,
part of what made the previous game great is the process of meeting
those characters for the first time. That has to be part of the
experience too, how you meet new characters."

I agree he did say that but I believe that was a selling point for ME2, again I only read it after the game was out so I dont know if Im right or wrong or whatever but I think it was talking about leaving Liara, Wrex, and ash/kaiden behind and talking about the new squad they had.

All of which are optional, and would not have any essential plot relative value, nor would be anything substantial if some people bought a $5 DLC add on a few years back.

Again as I said Im just speculating, thinking out loud if you will, but neither have any of ME2s yet. Maybe they will I do not know but again comes to the point of why has Zaheed stayed even after the collector mission, I mean I dont think even the mercs story is over.

How is that beautiful?  This is a horrible thing.  It turns Shepard from an active protagonist into a passive one, with no reason to go forward, no plot-motivation, no control over or say in what they're doing.  Sure, we know the goal, but no plan or details are revealed, and worse still, they have no motivation.  There's no fear or cause for alarm, no quickened pace, no personal stake, no Reapers to fight.  Just wait for TIM to tell you what to do, and Pokemon some random fellows for untold reasons to fight our big bad guy eventually somehow.  That's the plot. 

Shepard does not have an amazing ability at everything.  Boy, people accuse me of being an ME1 fanboy.

How the hell was Shepard trying to piece "it" together the whole way through, showing us that she wasn't the best in the galaxy?  WTF is "it"?  There's no "puzzle".  There're no hints, no allusions toward our goal.  It's just TIM: "Shepard, go to point A.  Now point B. etc.  Oh, going on a Suicide Mission, well good luck."

How is being in the dark making Shepard seem like having less an impact on the galaxy, when in fact she was doing more?  I have no idea what you're going on about here.

This is personal opinion, and I should have worded it better too. As I said it, it sounded like yes she was a passive protagonist. Let me rephrase. It made her have to move from being on her heels in the first few encounters, behind the collectors on Horizion and Freedoms progress, to progressively moving onto the offensive with the derlict reaper and then final the collector homeworld. I saw this as much more believeable then always chasing saren but really she was never taken by surprise from him.

She seemed like she only took out a minion of the reapers and this seems smaller then taking out an actual reaper as in ME1 but really she is now knowing what she is facing as shown in the last cutscene with the whole PDA and Harbinger on it, or whatever reaper it was. Sure TIM had given her the data and it made her seem more human, she isnt a puzzle solver, or an intellegence gatherer, Sheps a soldier, a damn good one but just a soldier in the end. I felt that her needing TIM for support made her feel like she didnt know everything and she needed help. Made her feel more personable, but again personal opinion.

PS, thanks for keeping this civil, it might actually be the first internet discussion that hasnt erupted in fanboyism or however else the erupt

[Iakus]

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...
And I find all this to be a big weakness in the story.  We're recruiting a squad to fight...something, somewhere. We're going to do something to someone becasue they're doing something for some reason.[/quote]We're going to uncover the identity of whoever is kidnapping human colonists - assumedly on behalf of the Reapers - and put a stop to it. I don't really need a copy of their long-term goals to know that their motives aren't good.
[/quote]

"Put a stop to it?"  That's a pretty general term.   Okay, how?  Answering that question gives you an idea as to what kind of specialists you need, and how big a team.  Yet TIM has a list of candidates before you even know if you'll have to face more than one Collector ship!  Before you even visit the COllector ship ang get EDI's phenomenal infodump!

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

For values of "pull a dozen names out of a hat" that are "relying on the extensive resources and information gathering capacities of Cerberus, acquire the names and locations of nine of the best specialists covering technical experts, powerful biotics, master infiltrators, and hardened combat soldiers who might be available and receptive to Shepard, as well as a krogan scientist who's had recent contact wth the Collectors". Were you just not paying attention in the beginning?
[/quote]

Yes, TIM got some very effective hired guns.  Good thing the Collectors didn't have, say, a squadron of fighters defending the base, or some pilots and ships might have been handy then.  No demolitions experts.  Good thing they didn't have an opportunity to blow up a ship from the inside or breach some doors (oh, wait)  No medics, save Mordin.  Yet coincidentally, TIM seemed to know exactly what specialists you need to get through the Collector base defenses seemingly without knowing anything about the Collectors themselves.  Serendipity?

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...
Darn good thing she's partially built with Reaper technology such as might be found in a Collector ship, huh?

[/quote]

Reaper hardware, yeah, but presumably human programming.  I can't get KOTOR working on my PC, and EDI can talk to a ship from another species and who knows how far more advanced?  But they're made from similar hardware.  I guess, tech support is right, keep your drivers updated and all your problems go away

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

Why? Cerberus has already recruited dozens if not hundreds, stationed at comfy terminals on space stations with priority FTL extranet access, sifting through any data that seems remotely related. Like, say, turian distress signals.

[/quote]

Might give the player more of a sense of participation in the game, rather than being an errand boy for TIM.  this is an rpg/shooter hybrid after all.  In rpgs it's much more fun to discover things on your own rather than have some higher authority, be it TIM or the DM, just read you a list of instructions.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

Mordin is a scientist. He needs samples to work with. He needs to be in the field, to have access to Collector technology - specifically Seeker Swarms, which is the reason you recruited him.
[/quote]

Yes, exactly! Was it too much to go find some samples for him?  Get some Collector technology?

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

Everybody is. The Collectors have been mysteries for thousands of years. You've discovered more about them than anyone in the current history of Citadel Space.
[/quote]

Being constantly kept in the dark is not fun.  It's frustrating.  I find a good rpg is when you start in the dark and gradually have things unfold.  How does that happen here?  TIM keeps everything close to the vest.  Shepard doesn't get to do any real investigating on is own.  The one real chance (the Collector Ship) was a trap for him, which TIM knew about.   By the end of he game, TIM may have a whole library about them, for all we know. 


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

[quote]you're supposed to go around recruiting mercs, assassins, vigilantes, but for what reason?  What purpose?  "Cause TIM says so" just doesn't cut it.[/quote]To back up Shepard in her ongoing battle against the Reaper extinction agenda. Again; were you not listening?
[/quote]

Yes I was listening.  What I didn't hear was how TIM knew exactly what  specialists are needed, what his criteria was.  All I heard was bad****es


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

[quote]'The squad" wasn't the main point of the game.  ME 2, however, the squad pretty much is the game.  As such, more than  the standard treatment is needed.  If "recruit a squad and earn their loyalty" is the order of the day, you can't have standard npcs with interesting stories to tell.[/quote]The team is, however, the only real tool available to a player to actually define their Warden. The voiced Shepard is given specific character by the forks chosen by the player, while the Warden relies on squad interaction. Additionally, it wasn't. "Recruit a squad and be certain they're prepared to give their all in a suicide mission" was in fact the order of the day. That they called it "loyalty" has unfortunately confused the issue.

[/quote]

First, there were other ways to define the Warden, through responses to other npcs and how you handled quests.  Character interaction (in particular interaction between your companions, not just you) was a really nice extra.

Call it loyalty, call it focus, call it the immunity idol.  The point is you're supposed to learn about them as people and do something to help them in a personal matter.  Thus it only makes sense that they have, you know personality. 

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]You need demonstrations of loyalty, or lack of it.  You need to see the squad get along, have personality conflicts, befriend each other. In short, interact.[/quote]Well, they wrote in two direct personal conflicts, Jacob can kind of turn into a jealous racist tool if you leave him for Garrus, and there are frequent talkbox conversations or scripted remarks on missions. Everything else is just cutscenes. I appreciate the inclusion of gameplay - no more MGS4s!
[/quote]

Aside from the two personal confilcts (the one time I don't mention them as exceptions and tey get mentioned!)  How often do the squadmates directly talk?  When does the "third squaddie" have anything of substance to say in a loyalty mission? 

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

[quote]And I'm really curious to see how they're going to integrate a squad of which any of the members can be dead into a game in any meaningful way.[/quote]You and me both. I'm just coming from a more receptive place at the moment.

[/quote]

True that.  ME 2 has really shaken my faith.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]Change the scope?  the scope changed from how ME 1 ended without my involvement at all![/quote]The Reapers reminded you of your scope. Small. Organic. Temporary. You were the one who wanted to play with entities beyond your comprehension, Shepard.
[/quote]

The end of ME 1 you finally convinced the Council (or replaced them) of the Reaper threat.  You vowed to go forth and find a way to defeat them.  Then Bioware, deciding this isn't a good way to start a "dark second act", preferred to unceremoniously stomp Shep into the ground rather than write a story about that happening.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

And they gave you more direct interaction with Shepard, which is the kind that makes it a dialog instead of a movie.

[/quote]

That just makes the squad windup toys Shep can take out and play with.  Perfectly adequate for a standard game, but not when the squad is the focus of the game.  For that they need to interact with their enviroment, with each other.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

[quote]It's my personal theory that TIM intended to use all of your squad up in the SM. All his rotten eggs in one basket.[/quote]I disagree. Nobody builds a six billion credit missile.
[/quote]

Many many birds (the crew, squad, and the Collectors).  One very expensive stone. (Shepard)


[quote]Thing was, the end of ME 1 kinda impled that's what ME 2 was for[/quote]And then the Reapers sent their errand boys to remind you that you have no idea what you're dealing with. What a tweest! Shepard's not calling all the shots in this war. It's a war.
[/quote]


If ME 1 had ended  with the Collector attack, and Shepard's death, I'd agree.  "There's gonna be a sequel?  Wow!  I can't wait to see how this gets explained!"  As it is, I just feel conned.  Now I can't even have faith that the ending of ME 2 is really  an ending, as it might all get swept away in the opening scenes in ME 3.  That's not a twist, that's just screwing with people's heads.

[Iakus]

IoCaster wrote...

iakus wrote...
It's my personal theory that TIM intended to use all of your squad up in the SM. All his rotten eggs in one basket.

Christmas Ape wrote...
I disagree. Nobody builds a six billion credit missile.

I'm sure that Shepard is meant to survive but I'm not so certain about the 'elite' badasses. It's not like they have an essential part to play in ME3 or anything.

Actually I'm not saying Bioware meant for them all to die, I'm saying TIM did.  Think about it:

The crew is all Cerberus, a human-centric terrorist group, yet everyone seems to be quite friendly concerning nonhumans.  It's like TIM deliberately stocked the ship with the "moderate" members of the organization, 

Of all the people TIM sends Shepard to recruit, Jack is the only human. The others are all aliens, and potentially dangerous ones (Mordin worked on the genophage modification, Thane is a superassasin, Samara a powerful biotic vigilante)  Just the sort to really give Cerberus and TIM real headaches if they ever came out of the shadows as a real power in the galaxy.  Jack, well, Jack wants every Cerberus member dead.  End of story.

Jacob is Cerberus, but makes it clear he doesn't trust TIM.  He's just in it becasue they're the only group he can see looking out for humanity's interests.  he's ready to jump ship if that ever changes.

Miranda's a true believer, but her, um "disagreements" with her father has cost Cerberus a major backer.  She may have become more trouble than she is worth.

Shepard has likely caused Cerberus some major headaches in ME 1.  Maybe Shep can be converted, but if not  Shep becomes a dead hero who was helping Cerberus save humanity.  That's gotta be good PR

[Christmas Ape]

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
Another ME2 plot thread? Oh well, it's doubtful that anything will get resolved here, but I'm game.[/quote]Particularly when you've already decided to not accept it.
[quote]I really like the seamless flow of this awesome plot. For two years some unknown entity is abducting humans from their colonies in the Terminus Systems without leaving any trace or evidence of their identity. Cerberus resurrects Shepard and TIM gives him the assignment to solve this vexing mystery. How awesomely contrived providential that he discovers not only who is responsible, but manages to find a surviving witness, omni-tool data, video recordings and seeker swarm samples. Old TIM sure is getting some bang for his Lazarus bucks isn't he?[/quote]We're complaining about contrivance in a video game plot now? Because, apparently, the entirety of the first game didn't rely 100% on utterly contrived timing to gloss over the fact that the window of time in which you might stop Saren is a giant plot hole because he already has all the information you chase him around gathering and still get dropped right behind him on Ilos, let alone that you arrive right on the heels of every other major event on the plot worlds? Yeah, holy ****, things go well for the protagonist in such a way as to make the rest of the game possible, because in this case you happen to luck into running into an old associate during the investigation whose aid reveals a potential information source. This is hardly an unknown storytelling device.
[quote]I don't know about iakus, but I was paying attention. I was also rolling my eyes and giggling uncontrollably too. Mordin is the only one I can think of that provides a necessary service. Let's see, you can leave Grunt stewing in his test tube without affecting anything. You have to recruit Jack, but who in their right mind would want that psycho on their team? Especially on a mission of such grand scale and importance. Garrus is nothing but a Turian military veteran and former C-Sec officer. What exactly does he bring to the table that you couldn't get from another merc like Zaeed? I guess we can mark him down to fan service for lovesick FemSheps.

After Horizon we get Thane, Samara and Tali. Tali gives us what exactly? A tech to unlock a door? Is she supposed to be the best of the best in the galaxy or was she simply more fan service? This time for lovesick Talimancers. Thane doesn't even have an assigned task on the suicide mission. Maybe more fan service for those alien loving FemSheps? Are we detecting a pattern here yet? Samara can successfully do the biotic bubble but so can Jack. If you're not particular about keeping everyone on your squad alive on the suicide mission you can even get Miranda or Jacob to stand in for either of them. Heck you can throw caution to the wind and only recruit two out of the three if you'd like. If you grab the DLC twins you can skip all three of the best and most elite badasses in the galaxy. Yeah, I'm still laughing about this sh!t whenever I give it a thought.[/quote]Neither tIM nor Shepard have the Prima Strategy Guide - they don't know what the suicide mission will require. Thus, all major bases are covered - biotics, infiltrators, potential fireteam leaders, technical experts. Just in case.
Do tell: After the Citadel, what actual plot-related purpose does any Mass Effect 1 squad member serve other than Liara or the Virmire victims (whose entire existence is as typecast love interest/heroic sacrifice)?
[quote]Oh yes, no doubt. Cerberus and TIM thought of everything, even before they knew for certain that the Collectors were abducting colonists and that they were agents of the Reapers. What a convenient coincidence. *rolleyes*[/quote]Let's see. tIM's concerned about the Reaper threat, devotes staggering amounts of resources to rebuilding the only other human who might be able to do something about the Reaper threat, makes use of Reaper technology to enhance her odds...yep, that all seems to follow. This was always about the Reapers. Again - listen when he speaks.
[quote]Considering the fact that Shepard was the investigator that got the goods on the Collector scheme, a case can be made that he's more than adequate and lucky to boot. But he's too busy recruiting and running errands for his team of elite badasses. Oh well, I guess we're stuck with those hundreds of crack detectives that spent two years trying to figure out who was abducting colonists.[/quote]Yep, Shepard caught a lucky break and found an old crewmate looking for someone who happened to have recorded information on the Collector scheme, without whom you'd have wandered Freedom's Progress for a while and left empty-handed. Shepard doesn't so much "investigate" as "be there when a variable the Collectors didn't account for shows up". Lucky yes. With sufficient access to do any investigating beyond that? Not really. There are several highly dangerous locations specialists need to be recovered from, for one. And Shepard's probably better off - to say nothing of it being better gameplay - delivering a partially Reaper-based AI connection to an information source in the Collector vessel than sitting at a desk playing the hacking minigame for hours on end to sift through Alliance comm chatter. That's for the aforementioned Cerberus research specialists. Shepard is a commando who keeps getting lucky.
[quote]The problem is that Shepard (the player) is getting spoon fed just a tidbit of information at any given time in the game.[/quote]tIM runs the entire Cerberus operation - you know, that shadowy, technically-a-capital-offense organization? - on a need to know basis. EDI withholds information, Miranda withholds information, tIM withholds information. Yes, Shepard is somewhat isolated in the second act, forced to rely on people who simply aren't trustworthy (save those aboard her ship). Storytelling device.
As did the Council.
[quote]TIM knew about the Derelict Reaper before he knowingly sent Shepard into the Collector Ship ambush. I understand why they did it but it's a constant stream of plot contrivance that gets grating as the game progresses. At this point in the game I was constantly having to stop playing for extended periods because it was getting so damn ridiculous.[/quote]I'm sorry Bioware wasn't aware of your delicate constitution. There doesn't seem to that much contrivance in "the untrustworthy and consciously enigmatic operational director of a pro-human shadow intelligence agency doesn't lay all his cards on the table in front of the Alliance officer who previously gave his organization a kick in the teeth, nor does he give you any lead quite as vague as any of Anderson's but instead only contacts you with mission-critical options". You have decided to feel differently.
[quote]Well that's the whole premise but it was never adequately made clear until he gets to the Collector Base.[/quote]Maybe to you, I guess. Seemed pretty crystal clear to me.
I'll need an army - or a REALLY good team.
[quote]So as Shepard recruits Grunt, Jack, Thane, Garrus, etc,.. There's no clear indication of why you need a 'pure' Krogan you can leave marinating in his tank.[/quote]You don't. You wanted Okeer, a krogan scientist known to have recent contact with the Collectors. He died during a cut scene, so you might have missed it. Instead, you take his experiment. If you decide to decant him, the dialog makes it quite clear it's because Shepard thinks a krogan soldier would be a valuable addition.
[quote]Why you need a psycho human biotic[/quote]Because she's the most potent human biotic alive (gameplay balance notwithstanding) and a loose end Cerberus would like to tie up - or at least check up on.
And honestly? To the objections about her actual characterization, she's basically sitting on the parts of Wrex's archetype Zaeed isn't taking up - the dangerous, somewhat bloodthirsty crew member who comes to trust Shepard after she does more for them than anyone else ever has.
[quote]or an assassin you really don't have to recruit[/quote]Infiltration and CQB experience. You can read the dossiers, you know. That he doesn't have a specific part he excels at in the suicide mission is a conscious gameplay decision to create a choices with consequence, and it's not the only one. If you overestimate Thane's technical expertise, you get someone killed.
[quote]or an ex C-Sec officer and so on[/quote]Extensive experience as a fireteam leader, technical expertise, highly proficient sniper. Shepard may need to split the team - it's good to have other experienced team leaders available.
[quote]That's the point here. In their effort to not reveal the details of the suicide mission too early the devs didn't provide enough buildup of information to justify why you needed to recruit these specific individuals.[/quote]Because the mission parameters are completely unknown and thus the list of dossiers comprises an expert specialist in every field your team is likely to need, as well as a back-up should they prove unavailable or die.
[quote]It only becomes evident after you crash land on the Collector Base. So I'm left doing recruitment and loyalty missions for 90% of the game before I find out how any of it is relevant to the actual mission.[/quote]So buy the Prima guide or use the internet and read some spoilers. That the game doesn't tip its hand is intentional, I'm sure. You don't get information Shepard doesn't have about the suicide mission.
[quote]The end result is that they're nothing but cannon fodder to throw at the enemy during the assault on the Collector Base. You can literally get all but two of the squad killed if you choose to do it. That's a legitimate gameplay choice that BioWare included in the suicide mission. That makes it obvious that none of these characters will have an essential role to fill in ME3. So we recruit the best of the best and stop the Collectors, but end the game knowing that the Reapers are still coming and that none of these 'elite' badasses will make the cut for ME3. Sheesh, what's the friggin point of all this?[/quote]You're the one making solid pronouncements about the content of ME3, you tell me, future man.
(snip some speculative complaints and subjective judgments on the threat posed by a Reaper that knows you personally)
[quote]I'm sure that Shepard is meant to survive but I'm not so certain about the 'elite' badasses. It's not like they have an essential part to play in ME3 or anything.[/quote]So what's it like in late 2012? Those of us stuck in 2010, and thus without knowledge of the plot of ME3, want to know. How's Dragon Age 2?

[Iakus]

maegi46 wrote...

To the people with all the nagativity, I can respect your opinions if you don't like the game, that's your
right. Why come into a thread and constantly rehash and bash ME2 over and over though? Shouldn't you all have moved on to the next biggest thing/movie/game whatever floats your collective boats? The funny thing is , like someone else already posted and asked Smudboy, I bet you all buy and play ME3. So stfu already.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I am here is because there is going to be a Mass Effect 3.  There has to be a voice explaining why we tink ME 2 is an unworthy successor to ME 1, or ME 3 will just be the same thing all over again.  Bioware used to be "what floats my boat"  I can't say that for absolute certainty anymore.

I preordered ME 1 and ME2.  I will not preorder ME3 specifically because of ME 2.  I'm not even going to preorder DA 2, and I'm not one of those posters absolutely terrified that it'll be "Mass Effected"  I'm not gonna preorder because quite simply Bioware has lost a degree of trust, so I'm going to have to study their products more carefully now.

Thank you for asking, and so politely too.

[theelementslayer]

iakus wrote...

maegi46 wrote...

To the people with all the nagativity, I can respect your opinions if you don't like the game, that's your
right. Why come into a thread and constantly rehash and bash ME2 over and over though? Shouldn't you all have moved on to the next biggest thing/movie/game whatever floats your collective boats? The funny thing is , like someone else already posted and asked Smudboy, I bet you all buy and play ME3. So stfu already.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I am here is because there is going to be a Mass Effect 3.  There has to be a voice explaining why we tink ME 2 is an unworthy successor to ME 1, or ME 3 will just be the same thing all over again.  Bioware used to be "what floats my boat"  I can't say that for absolute certainty anymore.

I preordered ME 1 and ME2.  I will not preorder ME3 specifically because of ME 2.  I'm not even going to preorder DA 2, and I'm not one of those posters absolutely terrified that it'll be "Mass Effected"  I'm not gonna preorder because quite simply Bioware has lost a degree of trust, so I'm going to have to study their products more carefully now.

Thank you for asking, and so politely too.

Well good for you, but Im sorry, the majority disagrees. ME2 got better reviews then ME1, both peer and critic.

-polite

Modifié par theelementslayer, 13 juillet 2010 - 04:37 .

[Christmas Ape]

Apologies for building a house 'o' text here, I seem to be popular in this thread.
[quote]iakus wrote...
"Put a stop to it?"  That's a pretty general term.   Okay, how?  Answering that question gives you an idea as to what kind of specialists you need, and how big a team.[/quote]Identify, track, neutralize. The same way military task forces
have operated for a very long time. Recruit as many as you can transport with as broad a skillset as possible.
[quote]Yet TIM has a list of candidates before you even know if you'll have to face more than one Collector ship!  Before you even visit the COllector ship ang get EDI's phenomenal infodump![/quote]This ain't his first intelligence rodeo. He has extensive resources, no oversight, and (fairly clearly) a background in military intelligence. And Shepard's been on an operating table for two years. He's probably been collecting dossiers and keeping track of their subjects since the first few colonies vanished, and tracking Okeer because I'm sure they're interested in any contact a krogan scientist has with the highly advanced Collectors. That's a dangerous mix.
[quote]Yes, TIM got some very effective hired guns.  Good thing the Collectors didn't have, say, a squadron of fighters defending the base, or some pilots and ships might have been handy then.[/quote]...well, they sort of did. Shepard broke one in the shuttle hangar. But yes, mostly we're fortunate that the Collectors rely on the fact their front door is impassable to everyone else.
[quote]No demolitions experts.  Good thing they didn't have an opportunity to blow up a ship from the inside or breach some doors (oh, wait).[/quote]Everything I've seen from ME1 and 2 suggests Shepard's something of a demolitions expert herself. The BDtS bombs, Eden Prime, the nuke in the mine, Pragia...explosives are Shepard's job. I do think a "defend the bomb!" timer-based wave fight would have been a nice touch, certainly, but I don't begrudge them not including a potentially frustrating sequence in the suicide mission. It flows nicely and keeps the tension up as is.
[quote]No medics, save Mordin.[/quote]If medi-gel won't fix it and they can't get you to Chakwas, it's probably all over anyway. They did say suicide mission.
[quote]Yet coincidentally, TIM seemed to know exactly what specialists you need to get through the Collector base defenses seemingly without knowing anything about the Collectors themselves.  Serendipity?[/quote]tIM covered all potential skill sets his experience suggested were necessary, and several of them happened to be vital. Some serendipity, some believable planning, and you've even got a few extras.
[quote]Reaper hardware, yeah, but presumably human programming.  I can't get KOTOR working on my PC, and EDI can talk to a ship from another species and who knows how far more advanced?  But they're made from similar hardware.  I guess, tech support is right, keep your drivers updated and all your problems go away [/quote]Or, you know...EDI's an AI and kind of good at computers. The Collectors trade their technology for their desired samples; do you find Cerberus to be the kind of organization that would be above a few kidnappings to gain that information ahead of time, just in case the Collectors become a problem? They're not anti-Reaper specifically, they're opposed to all potential threats to humanity.
[quote]Might give the player more of a sense of participation in the game, rather than being an errand boy for TIM.  this is an rpg/shooter hybrid after all.  In rpgs it's much more fun to discover things on your own rather than have some higher authority, be it TIM or the DM, just read you a list of instructions.[/quote]I grant you the second point, but combined with the fact that if you buy into a narrative device it can be a lot of fun. Say, a device like "Your boss is an enigmatic and untrustworthy ass, and will tell you only as much as you need to get it done".
Also, people complain about mini-games already when they're optional. Do you think Bioware would really skip the chance for a mini-game that moved the investigation forward?
[quote]Yes, exactly! Was it too much to go find some samples for him?  Get some Collector technology?[/quote]You acquire the data from Freedom's Progress. He apparently constructs himself a sample Seeker in the lab. He's just that good.
[quote]Being constantly kept in the dark is not fun.  It's frustrating.  I find a good rpg is when you start in the dark and gradually have things unfold.  How does that happen here?  TIM keeps everything close to the vest.  Shepard doesn't get to do any real investigating on is own.  The one real chance (the Collector Ship) was a trap for him, which TIM knew about.   By the end of he game, TIM may have a whole library about them, for all we know.[/quote]Yep. tIM is a jerk and he's using you for his own ends. That they didn't tell the story you wanted isn't an objective fault.
[quote]Yes I was listening.  What I didn't hear was how TIM knew exactly what  specialists are needed, what his criteria was.  All I heard was bad****es[/quote]As that's basically the criteria, that's fair. He didn't know exactly - if you tell me how many times I need to say "covering all the bases" to make it stick, I'll just repeat it that many times.
[quote]First, there were other ways to define the Warden, through responses to other npcs and how you handled quests.  Character interaction (in particular interaction between your companions, not just you) was a really nice extra.[/quote]Well, I'll take your word for, I can't make myself care enough to leave Lothering in that game.
[quote]Call it loyalty, call it focus, call it the immunity idol.  The point is you're supposed to learn about them as people and do something to help them in a personal matter.  Thus it only makes sense that they have, you know personality.[/quote]And they do. That there isn't some slice-of-life-anime scene in the mess hall between missions doesn't change that.
[quote]Aside from the two personal confilcts (the one time I don't mention them as exceptions and tey get mentioned!)  How often do the squadmates directly talk?  When does the "third squaddie" have anything of substance to say in a loyalty mission?[/quote]That's the kind of thing Ecael keeps records of, fortunately. Check the Squadmates thread for details. I don't have enough playthroughs done to list them all.
[quote]The end of ME 1 you finally convinced the Council (or replaced them) of the Reaper threat.[/quote]I didn't get that impression in the slightest. They're very grateful you stopped Saren and praise humanity's efforts, but I'm 90% sure none of them even say "Reaper".
[quote]You vowed to go forth and find a way to defeat them.[/quote]Yes, but you've been shouting your delusions about genocidal machine intelligences for a while now. They're being polite because you saved them/secured humanity's power.
[quote]Then Bioware, deciding this isn't a good way to start a "dark second act", preferred to unceremoniously stomp Shep into the ground rather than write a story about that happening.[/quote]Well, I wasn't aware I was discussing with the dev team, but to the actual point, how good a story would "Have all the resources you need to stop galactic extinction!" been? That's for the RTS later. You're welcome to fault them for not writing the story you wanted, but not objectively so.
[quote]That just makes the squad windup toys Shep can take out and play with.  Perfectly adequate for a standard game, but not when the squad is the focus of the game.  For that they need to interact with their enviroment, with each other.[/quote]So...every Bioware game ever. They did what they do pretty damn well in this case, and didn't make a movie out of it. I felt attached to them. Evidently YMMV. They could have done more, sure, but if wishes were horses. I prefer to assess what I got instead of pining for my dream vision of the project.
[quote]Many many birds (the crew, squad, and the Collectors).  One very expensive stone. (Shepard)[/quote]It's an argument. I don't personally agree, but it is plausible.
[quote]If ME 1 had ended  with the Collector attack, and Shepard's death, I'd agree.[/quote]So it's an issue of timing? That's...petty, without offense intended.
[quote]"There's gonna be a sequel?  Wow!  I can't wait to see how this gets explained!"  As it is, I just feel conned.[/quote]Millions didn't. Not an objective problem.
[quote]Now I can't even have faith that the ending of ME 2 is really  an ending, as it might all get swept away in the opening scenes in ME 3.  That's not a twist, that's just screwing with people's heads.[/quote]Now you're just being petulant, again without offense intended. They yanked the rug out from under you once, so it'll happen every time? I hope you never play Jade Empire, you might lose it completely. And incidentally, Sovereign is still destroyed, it didn't undo your work; just your top-of-the-world hero position because you were something of a political embarrassment since day one and the Council is glad of a chance to sweep your crazy under the rug.
Ash told you not to trust politicians, Shepard.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 13 juillet 2010 - 05:22 .

[Iakus]

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

Apologies for building a house 'o' text here, I seem to be popular in this thread.
[quote]iakus wrote...
"Put a stop to it?"  That's a pretty general term.   Okay, how?  Answering that question gives you an idea as to what kind of specialists you need, and how big a team.[/quote]Identify, track, neutralize. The same way military task forces
have operated for a very long time. Recruit as many as you can transport with as broad a skillset as possible.

[/quote]

Of course you're popular.  you're willing to debate with civility.  A rare commodity

At any rate, I question the identify and track parts.  You have to take TIM's word for it that this is actually going on.  With as little information as Shep is given, it seems less like an rpg or a shooter and ore like a rts game like Starcraft where you're given the mission parameters, now go destroy the enemy base.  Storyline?  Details?  Doesn''t matter.  This map is your universe now.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]Yet TIM has a list of candidates before you even know if you'll have to face more than one Collector ship!  Before you even visit the COllector ship ang get EDI's phenomenal infodump![/quote]This ain't his first intelligence rodeo. He has extensive resources, no oversight, and (fairly clearly) a background in military intelligence. And Shepard's been on an operating table for two years. He's probably been collecting dossiers and keeping track of their subjects since the first few colonies vanished, and tracking Okeer because I'm sure they're interested in any contact a krogan scientist has with the highly advanced Collectors. That's a dangerous mix.

[/quote]

Just so we're clear, the Mass Effect series is Shepard's story, right?  Not TIMs?

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]Yes, TIM got some very effective hired guns.  Good thing the Collectors didn't have, say, a squadron of fighters defending the base, or some pilots and ships might have been handy then.[/quote]...well, they sort of did. Shepard broke one in the shuttle hangar. But yes, mostly we're fortunate that the Collectors rely on the fact their front door is impassable to everyone else.

[/quote]

Thank the Enkindlers for shortsightedness, i guess.  A second Collector sip and Shepard would have been a six billion credit dud.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]No demolitions experts.  Good thing they didn't have an opportunity to blow up a ship from the inside or breach some doors (oh, wait).[/quote]Everything I've seen from ME1 and 2 suggests Shepard's something of a demolitions expert herself. The BDtS bombs, Eden Prime, the nuke in the mine, Pragia...explosives are Shepard's job. I do think a "defend the bomb!" timer-based wave fight would have been a nice touch, certainly, but I don't begrudge them not including a potentially frustrating sequence in the suicide mission. It flows nicely and keeps the tension up as is.

[/quote]

That might have made a better final boss fight than what we got.  But that's just me.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

If medi-gel won't fix it and they can't get you to Chakwas, it's probably all over anyway. They did say suicide mission.

[/quote]

One way or another.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote][Yet coincidentally, TIM seemed to know exactly what specialists you need to get through the Collector base defenses seemingly without knowing anything about the Collectors themselves.  Serendipity?[/quote]tIM covered all potential skill sets his experience suggested were necessary, and several of them happened to be vital. Some serendipity, some believable planning, and you've even got a few extras.
[/quote]

Okay, I'll bite.  How many Collector bases has TIM assaulted?  I mean, the only way this assault could have worked would be if he knew there'd be little to no external security, No significant ship to ship combat, No external sensors (The Normandy's stealth device doesn't work on the Collectors, we know)  No heavy vehicles such as tanks and whatnot.  And Collectors in manageable numbers.  What if the Relay led to a planet with billions of Collectors on it?  Maybe with Harbringer himself chilling there?  Fortunately, TIM seemed to know it was just a base with maybe a few dozen Collectors on it.  The squad he assembled was perfect for what was needed.  And there's no explanation beyond "the plot demands it so" as to why.


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...

Or, you know...EDI's an AI and kind of good at computers. The Collectors trade their technology for their desired samples; do you find Cerberus to be the kind of organization that would be above a few kidnappings to gain that information ahead of time, just in case the Collectors become a problem? They're not anti-Reaper specifically, they're opposed to all potential threats to humanity.
[/quote]

Tehy trade their tech, yeah, but are they really gonna trade their top of the line stuff?  I can only assume the Collector ship is their beest of te best tec, given it's their only sihp, it seems.  And EDI hacks through it almost like it's not there, while under assault herself.  I'm not a techie, but I find that EDI really strains credibility. Which is a shame, cause I thought an AI with Tricia Helfer's voice was a really nice touch at first.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]Might give the player more of a sense of participation in the game, rather than being an errand boy for TIM.  this is an rpg/shooter hybrid after all.  In rpgs it's much more fun to discover things on your own rather than have some higher authority, be it TIM or the DM, just read you a list of instructions.[/quote]I grant you the second point, but combined with the fact that if you buy into a narrative device it can be a lot of fun. Say, a device like "Your boss is an enigmatic and untrustworthy ass, and will tell you only as much as you need to get it done".
Also, people complain about mini-games already when they're optional. Do you think Bioware would really skip the chance for a mini-game that moved the investigation forward?
[/quote]

I've actually played games like that.  Typically, at some point (BEFORE the endgame) you find out what the boss is really up to and have a chance to do something about it.  Or join him.  Or something. 


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]Yes, exactly! Was it too much to go find some samples for him?  Get some Collector technology?[/quote]You acquire the data from Freedom's Progress. He apparently constructs himself a sample Seeker in the lab. He's just that good.

[/quote]

I'll have to take your word on this, that Mordin can construct a Seeker (and a sSeeker-repeller) based on the omnitool readings of a delerious quarian.  And I thought the plaque cure witth the resources of a free clinic was incredible.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]Being constantly kept in the dark is not fun.  It's frustrating.  I find a good rpg is when you start in the dark and gradually have things unfold.  How does that happen here?  TIM keeps everything close to the vest.  Shepard doesn't get to do any real investigating on is own.  The one real chance (the Collector Ship) was a trap for him, which TIM knew about.   By the end of he game, TIM may have a whole library about them, for all we know.[/quote]Yep. tIM is a jerk and he's using you for his own ends. That they didn't tell the story you wanted isn't an objective fault.
[/quote]

My arguement is that I didn't get a story at all!  I get bits and pieces scattered throughout the entire game.  TIM stole Shepard's thunder.  This is Shepard's story, but he's no longer the main protagonist.  He's not a hero, not an antihero, not even a villain  he's just...drifting...waiting to be told what to do.  Waiting for something to happen.  ME 3 maybe.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]Yes I was listening.  What I didn't hear was how TIM knew exactly what  specialists are needed, what his criteria was.  All I heard was bad****es[/quote]As that's basically the criteria, that's fair. He didn't know exactly - if you tell me how many times I need to say "covering all the bases" to make it stick, I'll just repeat it that many times.

[/quote]

And I say he didn't cover all the bases, he covered exactly the bases that needed covering, by an amazing coincidence that defies probability in anything besides a scripted event like a videogame.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]Call it loyalty, call it focus, call it the immunity idol.  The point is you're supposed to learn about them as people and do something to help them in a personal matter.  Thus it only makes sense that they have, you know personality.[/quote]And they do. That there isn't some slice-of-life-anime scene in the mess hall between missions doesn't change that.

[/quote] 

They have personality as long as Shepard is actively paying attention to them.  Afterwards they return to being a lifeless, well, husk.

And while I don't watch anime, a few scenes in the mess hall would have been nice.  Biotic food fight between Jacob and Jack?  Grunt and Zaed swapping stories?  Thane and Samara trading parenting tips? (okay, maybe not that)

This is supposed to be a team that depends on each other to survive a suicide mission!  Let them act like one!


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...That's the kind of thing Ecael keeps records of, fortunately. Check the Squadmates thread for details. I don't have enough playthroughs done to list them all.
[/quote]

I've only done three playthroughs, and I can tell you, there are very few points where the third squaddie as anything to say period.  And nowhere is it anything pertaining to the actual mission.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]The end of ME 1 you finally convinced the Council (or replaced them) of the Reaper threat.[/quote]I didn't get that impression in the slightest. They're very grateful you stopped Saren and praise humanity's efforts, but I'm 90% sure none of them even say "Reaper".
[/quote]

"Sovereign and the geth" are referred to several times by the Council as seperate entities

Asari Councillor:  "The Council owes you a great personal debt, Commander.  One we can never repay.  You saved not just our lives but the lives of billions from Sovereign and the Reapers"


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]You vowed to go forth and find a way to defeat them.[/quote]Yes, but you've been shouting your delusions about genocidal machine intelligences for a while now. They're being polite because you saved them/secured humanity's power.
[/quote]

Here's the final lines from Udina (you know the guy who didn't believe a word that came out of your mouth the entirety of the game) if you make him the Human Councilor:

 "Shepard's right. We're on the verge of war with an enemy unlike any the galaxy has ever known!  A war for the survival of all life as we know it!  Humanity is ready to do its part.  We will not back down. We will not surrender. We will lead you into battle against the Reapers and drive them back into dark space!"  (emphasis mine)

"Ah, yes, continuity..."

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...



[quote]Then Bioware, deciding this isn't a good way to start a "dark second act", preferred to unceremoniously stomp Shep into the ground rather than write a story about that happening.[/quote]Well, I wasn't aware I was discussing with the dev team, but to the actual point, how good a story would "Have all the resources you need to stop galactic extinction!" been? That's for the RTS later. You're welcome to fault them for not writing the story you wanted, but not objectively so.

[/quote]

I was perhaps too harsh with that statement.  I do believe, however, that the story they chose for ME 2 was less a continuation into the trilgy than putting the story in a holding pattern. I believe a perfectly fine stry could have been made of Shepard's exploits on the fringes of known space, looking fro possible ways to defeat the Reapers.   I have on occassion called it  ME 2"Mass Effect:  Tales of the Sword Coast"

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]That just makes the squad windup toys Shep can take out and play with.  Perfectly adequate for a standard game, but not when the squad is the focus of the game.  For that they need to interact with their enviroment, with each other.[/quote]So...every Bioware game ever. They did what they do pretty damn well in this case, and didn't make a movie out of it. I felt attached to them. Evidently YMMV. They could have done more, sure, but if wishes were horses. I prefer to assess what I got instead of pining for my dream vision of the project.

[/quote]

Believe me, when I finished my first playthrough, I thought long and hard.  I didn't like the game, and wondered why.  The list I came up with was extensive, but the emptiness of the story was right there at the top.  Which was stunning because, you know, Bioware.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]If ME 1 had ended  with the Collector attack, and Shepard's death, I'd agree.[/quote]So it's an issue of timing? That's...petty, without offense intended.
[/quote]

What can I say?  Timing is everything.  If you're going to show te fall of a hero, there are two better ways that I can tink of:  1)  Dying at the moment of his greatest triumph, such as putting the Collector attack at the very end of ME 1 wen te Citadel battle is still fresh.  Alternatively, SHep could have really been squished by the piece of Sovereign.  OF course, that would mess with deciding who gets to be the Human Councilor...

The other way would be watching a slide into obscurity.  Cutscenes of Shepard searching and failing to find what e's loking for, or even evidence of the Reapers.  His friends drift away, called to duty elsewhere, or dying in attacks and mishaps.  Normandy gets battered and rundown.  Funding dries up.  Alliance and Citadel no longer take him seriously.  Finally he pulls into Omega out of options, where Miranda and acob meet im with an almost-literal deal-with-the-devil.


Collector attack kiling Shep at the very start of the game?  That smacks of "Rocks fall.  Everyone dies" except, well, it's the beginning.


[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote]
"There's gonna be a sequel?  Wow!  I can't wait to see how this gets explained!"  As it is, I just feel conned.[/quote]Millions didn't. Not an objective problem.

[/quote]

Didn't say it was, I said it's how I fell.  I doubt I'm alone, but I can't prove that.

[quote]Christmas Ape wrote...


[quote][Now I can't even have faith that the ending of ME 2 is really  an ending, as it might all get swept away in the opening scenes in ME 3.  That's not a twist, that's just screwing with people's heads.[/quote]Now you're just being petulant, again without offense intended. They yanked the rug out from under you once, so it'll happen every time? I hope you never play Jade Empire, you might lose it completely. And incidentally, Sovereign is still destroyed, it didn't undo your work; just your top-of-the-world hero position because you were something of a political embarrassment since day one and the Council is glad of a chance to sweep your crazy under the rug.
Ash told you not to trust politicians, Shepard.

[/quote]

I suppose I could go with Shepard's line after the Collector Ship and TIM now wants to send him to the Derelict Reaper: "The only reason I believe you is because I don't think you'd try the same trick again so soon"

Point is, I don't know if they'll do it again.  I don't think they'd do it the first time!  The fact that ME 3 is supposed to be a standalone game as well certainly doesn't bode well. 

Polititians?  This goes beyond sweeping under the rug and well int willful stupidity.  I've said before, if they became convinced that the Reaper threat died with Sovereign, that would be one thing, but to deny Reapers exist at all?  "Ah, yes, continuity..."

And I have played Jade Empire.  In fact, I'm replaying it now (Just reached the Imperial City)  I think I know what you're referring to.  You know what my response was my first playthrough?  "That.  Was.  Awesome!" 

Why? 

1) Moment of triumph.  Remember how I mentioned that earlier?

2) There was internal consistency in the story.  There was foreshadowing, even if I didn't understand what it meant.  It wasn't a complete bolt from the blue.   Well, okay it was, kinda, but after I recovered from the shock and thought about it, it made sense.

Modifié par iakus, 13 juillet 2010 - 07:24 .

[Christmas Ape]

[quote]iakus wrote...Of course you're popular.  you're willing to debate with civility.  A rare commodity [/quote]When the mood takes me. I'll leave the vague, irrational dismissal of counter-arguments by appeals to one's own nebulous 'authority' to others, but I can be a little caustic.

[quote]At any rate, I question the identify and track parts.  You have to take TIM's word for it that this is actually going on.  With as little information as Shep is given, it seems less like an rpg or a shooter and ore like a rts game like Starcraft where you're given the mission parameters, now go destroy the enemy base.  Storyline?  Details?  Doesn''t matter.  This map is your universe now.[/quote]You do indeed have to take tIM's word for it. ME2 places you in an awkward position where the only reliable help you have keeps you in the dark and hangs you out to dry. It's a more somber, uneasy second act.
[quote]Just so we're clear, the Mass Effect series is Shepard's story, right?  Not TIMs?[/quote]It is. This chapter follows Shepard's uneasy association with the Illusive Man and Cerberus following her death, giving several side missions whose entire purpose is to better define your relationship. He presents himself as the only one who can help you, and events largely conspire to make that true. I don't feel he steals the spotlight by virtue of being your primary source of intel any more than Liara does in ME1 by being the only one who can process your visions into something coherent.
[quote]Thank the Enkindlers for shortsightedness, i guess.  A second Collector sip and Shepard would have been a six billion credit dud.[/quote]They're not flawless, just potent and patient. And I disagree - Joker with a grudge and a Thannix cannon made pretty short work of the Cruiser. I think he could have schooled two cruisers with only bow guns at knife-fight range.
[quote]That might have made a better final boss fight than what we got.  But that's just me.[/quote]Well, different strokes. I guess they figured a second "guard the bomb" scenario would be hitting that drum a little hard. I don't resent not getting it, but I likewise wouldn't have hated it.
[quote]Okay, I'll bite.  How many Collector bases has TIM assaulted?[/quote]None, I'd imagine, but he's almost certainly former military intelligence. He relies on his experience putting together teams for dangerous covert operations.
[quote]I mean, the only way this assault could have worked would be if he knew there'd be little to no external security, No significant ship to ship combat, No external sensors (The Normandy's stealth device doesn't work on the Collectors, we know)  No heavy vehicles such as tanks and whatnot.[/quote]Granted, some things worked out in our favor. But it's hardly surprising that if they don't have a fighter screen around the base they also don't have external sensors in the radiation- and gravity-bathed environment of the galactic core.
[quote]And Collectors in manageable numbers. What if the Relay led to a planet with billions of Collectors on it?[/quote]You're only there for about 15 minutes. They likely don't have time to mobilize their full numbers against Shepard as they have no real intelligence of their own. And once EDI tracks the ship's navigation logs to the galactic core it's fairly certain they don't have a genuine homeworld. Perhaps there's dossiers or missions he had on tap that got sidelined as irrelevant once they had a rough location because they were intended for planetary assault.
tIM doesn't answer to Shepard, and he doesn't explain himself willingly.
[quote]Maybe with Harbringer himself chilling there?[/quote]This would, granted, be a problem. To the best of anyone's knowledge, however, the rest of the Reapers are in dark space. He took a calculated risk.
[quote]Fortunately, TIM seemed to know it was just a base with maybe a few dozen Collectors on it. The squad he assembled was perfect for what was needed.  And there's no explanation beyond "the plot demands it so" as to why.[/quote]tIM devoted extensive Cerberus resources to putting together dossiers to cover every forseeable eventuality to which he can't tell Shepard "improvise". Things go right sometimes too.
[quote]Tehy trade their tech, yeah, but are they really gonna trade their top of the line stuff?  I can only assume the Collector ship is their beest of te best tec, given it's their only sihp, it seems.  And EDI hacks through it almost like it's not there, while under assault herself.  I'm not a techie, but I find that EDI really strains credibility. Which is a shame, cause I thought an AI with Tricia Helfer's voice was a really nice touch at first.[/quote]They just need to trade something with their computer technology for Cerberus to start reverse engineering the basic programming language.
Actual sapient AI is well beyond our experience. I'm personally unwilling to comment on their likely capabilities at this time, save that EDI is top of the line and basically built for the exact purpose she fulfills. The Reapers appear to be, for whatever reason, unwilling to actually rely on other machine intelligences - Sovereign used the geth as expendable.
[quote]I've actually played games like that.  Typically, at some point (BEFORE the endgame) you find out what the boss is really up to and have a chance to do something about it.  Or join him.  Or something.[/quote]That might be coming in 3. Hard to comment on the fullness of the story before seeing its...fullness.
[quote]I'll have to take your word on this, that Mordin can construct a Seeker (and a sSeeker-repeller) based on the omnitool readings of a delerious quarian.  And I thought the plaque cure witth the resources of a free clinic was incredible.[/quote]He appears to be able to, yes, given he has a Seeker in the isolation bay in the lab before you go to Horizon. Even delerious, quarians are technical experts.
[quote]My arguement is that I didn't get a story at all!  I get bits and pieces scattered throughout the entire game.  TIM stole Shepard's thunder.  This is Shepard's story, but he's no longer the main protagonist.  He's not a hero, not an antihero, not even a villain  he's just...drifting...waiting to be told what to do.  Waiting for something to happen.  ME 3 maybe.[/quote]I disagree. Shepard is placed in an uncomfortable position where the only way to do something good is to sign on with the devil, who yanks you around and uses you to serve his aims. It's a story, if a short transitional one not everyone bought into.
[quote]And I say he didn't cover all the bases, he covered exactly the bases that needed covering, by an amazing coincidence that defies probability in anything besides a scripted event like a videogame.[/quote]So we're agreed it's a perfectly servicable chain of video game events on par with the original. Mass Effect is completely composed of a string of amazing coincidences.
[quote]They have personality as long as Shepard is actively paying attention to them.  Afterwards they return to being a lifeless, well, husk.

And while I don't watch anime, a few scenes in the mess hall would have been nice.  Biotic food fight between Jacob and Jack?  Grunt and Zaed swapping stories?  Thane and Samara trading parenting tips? (okay, maybe not that)

This is supposed to be a team that depends on each other to survive a suicide mission!  Let them act like one![/quote]Additional cut-scenes aren't really a plot element. I found the characters well put together, sufficiently developed, and not by nature the sort of people who hang out and gab a lot. Pretty much everybody on that list but Jacob, and to a degree Zaeed, seem to prefer being left alone.
[quote]I've only done three playthroughs, and I can tell you, there are very few points where the third squaddie as anything to say period.  And nowhere is it anything pertaining to the actual mission.[/quote]Given each mission has several dozen possible combinations of squadmates to produce talkboxes, conversation, or additional input, that's probably not nearly enough to speak with confidence on it it. Again, that guide thread of Ecael's lists all the possibilities.
[quote]"Sovereign and the geth" are referred to several times by the Council as seperate entities
Asari Councillor:  "The Council owes you a great personal debt, Commander.  One we can never repay.  You saved not just our lives but the lives of billions from Sovereign and the Reapers"[/quote]I'll freely admit I may have missed that line or simply failed to recall it. It is nice of them to not keep calling you delusional to your face immediately after you save their lives and the Citadel.
[quote]Here's the final lines from Udina (you know the guy who didn't believe a word that came out of your mouth the entirety of the game) if you make him the Human Councilor:

 "Shepard's right. We're on the verge of war with an enemy unlike any the galaxy has ever known!  A war for the survival of all life as we know it!  Humanity is ready to do its part.  We will not back down. We will not surrender. We will lead you into battle against the Reapers and drive them back into dark space!"  (emphasis mine)

"Ah, yes, continuity..."[/quote]There's absolutely no chance that slimy little politician is telling you what you want to hear, after all. He's a reliable man.

[quote]I was perhaps too harsh with that statement.  I do believe, however, that the story they chose for ME 2 was less a continuation into the trilgy than putting the story in a holding pattern.[/quote]It's a transitional story. Some people feel robbed of what they expected. While a fair response, it doesn't speak to the quality of the story, just personal expectations.
[quote]I believe a perfectly fine stry could have been made of Shepard's exploits on the fringes of known space, looking fro possible ways to defeat the Reapers.[/quote]With the exception of the addition of Cerberus, that more or less is ME2, if we accept the conceit that the Collector threat is at present the only information we have about the Reapers.
[quote]Believe me, when I finished my first playthrough, I thought long and hard.  I didn't like the game, and wondered why.  The list I came up with was extensive, but the emptiness of the story was right there at the top.  Which was stunning because, you know, Bioware.[/quote]Some of us didn't find the story empty at all. A friend of mine - published if it makes a difference - described it as being second only to the interactive novel that was Planescape: Torment in terms of video game plots. There may be no common ground between these two points of perception.
[quote]What can I say?  Timing is everything.  If you're going to show te fall of a hero, there are two better ways that I can tink of:  1)  Dying at the moment of his greatest triumph, such as putting the Collector attack at the very end of ME 1 wen te Citadel battle is still fresh.  Alternatively, SHep could have really been squished by the piece of Sovereign.  OF course, that would mess with deciding who gets to be the Human Councilor...[/quote]Shepard is basically needed for the epilogue, yeah, and while I get the argument I think faulting them for the fact that video games take time to develop is unfair. If you're playing them back to back it's basically seamless. That they didn't put it on the end of the ME1 disc is the only 'timing' issue. It does immediately follow ME1 in universe, just that they took some time to do animations and programming and the like to make a game out of it.
[quote]The other way would be watching a slide into obscurity.  Cutscenes of Shepard searching and failing to find what e's loking for, or even evidence of the Reapers.  His friends drift away, called to duty elsewhere, or dying in attacks and mishaps.  Normandy gets battered and rundown.  Funding dries up.  Alliance and Citadel no longer take him seriously.  Finally he pulls into Omega out of options, where Miranda and acob meet im with an almost-literal deal-with-the-devil.[/quote]Certainly an option, and a pretty decent one, save that people would be screaming their heads off here about their inability to change any of it. They needed a dramatic sudden shift of fortune to drive it forward.
[quote]I suppose I could go with Shepard's line after the Collector Ship and TIM now wants to send him to the Derelict Reaper: "The only reason I believe you is because I don't think you'd try the same trick again so soon"

Point is, I don't know if they'll do it again.  I don't think they'd do it the first time!  The fact that ME 3 is supposed to be a standalone game as well certainly doesn't bode well.[/quote]I think the sheer volume of spleen vented on the forums over this issue means it's unlikely.
[quote]Polititians?  This goes beyond sweeping under the rug and well int willful stupidity.  I've said before, if they became convinced that the Reaper threat died with Sovereign, that would be one thing, but to deny Reapers exist at all?  "Ah, yes, continuity..."[/quote]Many people think they're working behind the scenes and dismissing Shepard both to prevent a panic and because you show up working for Cerberus, membership in which is considered a capital offense in Citadel space. Seems plausible to me.
[quote]And I have played Jade Empire.  In fact, I'm replaying it now (Just reached the Imperial City)  I think I know what you're referring to.  You know what my response was my first playthrough?  "That.  Was.  Awesome!"[/quote]First time a video game plot twist has made me actually leap out of my seat with a "HOLY SH^T!". They sure did that one well.
[quote]1) Moment of triumph.  Remember how I mentioned that earlier?
2) There was internal consistency in the story.  There was foreshadowing, even if I didn't understand what it meant.  It wasn't a complete bolt from the blue.   Well, okay it was, kinda, but after I recovered from the shock and thought about it, it made sense.[/quote]Again, development time makes it seem further from your moment of triumph than it is. And while I'll grant you Jade Empire did a fantastic job setting it up without making you aware of it, Sovereign did tell you your extinction was inevitable.

[tvih]

As for Shepard dying and whether or not the Lazarus thing made any sense... well, it's not necessarily the optimal plot device, but I wasn't really bothered by it either.

theelementslayer wrote...
On another note I cant remember any rpg, non sandbox game allowing you to play after the storyline even with DLC. Fallout didnt, and they had 5 DLC packs released. ME1 didnt, dont know how many DLC packs, DA:O had DLC built into the game and you cant continue the story after the final boss. The only games that I know that do this are like GTA style games, large sandox game that the story really isnt the most important part.

I indeed didn't expect that I can continue the game after the suicide mission. That's why I had to backtrack 10 hours when I did finish it, because the only reason I ended up getting my crew killed was mopping up all the missions I hadn't yet finished when they got abducted. Thinking I can't finish them after, I finished them before... bah, all for nothing

[Delta_Echo]

 Smudboy
I just watched your video series. Well Done. Well argued and articulated.
Ikaus, IoCaster, Smudboy, just thought I should say thanks for eloquently articulating the frustrations that many of us who are both Bioware and Mass Effect fans. I'd say you guys answered the why as to the
plot hate for the original poster. Even though hate is the wrong word that gets thrown around alot.

Christmas Ape thank you for being civil in your disagreement and not resorting to juvenile personal attacks.

Somany people think that those of us who hate the plot, also hate the
game or the ME universe or that we are attacking Bioware or and feel
that it is their duty to strike back. Even if the majority of them
can't form a reasonable counter argument.
 
We don't hate ME, we don't hate Bioware, we are as big of fans as
anybody, we are passionate about Bioware games and the ME universe. I
think the big conflict here is about differing standards and constructive criticism.

First contructive criticism, those of us who are pointing out flaws aren't
doing it just to flip Bioware and their fans the bird. We want to get
their attention so the final game doesn't have the same issues. We
are expressing our dissappointment and most of the time reasoned and
valid explanations are given.

Secondly standards. I get the feeling that most of the rabid fans arecomparing ME2 to other video games, to which it holds up pretty well because the writing in other video games generally averages from mediocre to horrible. I've seen to comparions to Fallout, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy etc. And the writing might be fine in comparison to those games because the story telling in those games in generally terrible or nonexistant. Bioware is one of the few developement studios that puts story ahead of mindless actions (ME2 notwithstanding). I'm not comparing the story of ME2 to Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy, I'm comparing it stories written preiviously by Bioware who I now
hold to a higher standard. I'm also comparing it to a decent sci-fi novel, which I think is pretty high praise for a video game. 

ME1 is like a decent novel with interesting and cohesive plot. It had a vision and it had the details (key) that made the ME universe seem real. ME2 is like some third rate crappy comic book. A human reaper created
from liquified people who looks like a giant three eyed terminator?
Seriously? That's the climax of the story? Lame. 

I've read the ME novels by Drew Karpshyn (ME1 lead writer) and he's pretty good, I can tell that he tried to keep his novels in continuity with ME1. Continuity that ME2 destroys. The story feels like it was put together by a committee who knew virtually nothing about the original game. If anybody has seen Robocop 2, the scene where a committee
reprograms his 3 prime directives into a clusterf*** comes to mind.

I'm wondering how much was altered from what the writer lead writersenvisioned (vision being the key) to what it became to make it more “accessable” to the “more casual” market. ( aka the console gamers with the attention span of a gnat)

So we are disappointed because we know Bioware can do better, we holdtheir story telling to a higher standard than other games and we are offering constructive criticism. 

I'd say my Bioware fan credentials are pretty substancial but I'm still not a blind fan

Modifié par Delta_Echo, 13 juillet 2010 - 11:35 .

[smudboy]

theelementslayer wrote...
Again I dont think they would put that much time and effort into characters if they were just going to kill them off or cameo them next game, I think Bioware knows most of us have played through multiple times and have at least one game with all the characters saved. It just wouldnt make sense from a dev perspective to devote a whole game to characters and then just kill them off. But again, its all a matter of opinion we won't know until the devs release an official statement. Also I disagree that it has nothing to do with the plot. All those loyalty quests might not have had to do with the reapers but it shows how everyone is getting ready for the end, albeit the collectors, reapers, the disease that Thane has, ect.

BioWare can speculate to the number of times people have played through.

Here's more Casey:
"There are people who play it five times, seven times, unbelievable.  That's the other part we try to mine and really understand is, for people who become experts in the game by playing it, what's their perspective on what needs to be better? So it's really those two halves that we put together. It ends up creating a big list of our goals and goals of our players. With Mass Effect 2 we tried to do literally every single one of them, and there were basically 40 different categories of things we wanted to add or improve or change."

Which means people only might play once, or maybe a 2 or three times.  That people would play more than that is "unbelievable."

He continues with:
"We knew it was a risk and something different. You're right, the story of Mass Effect 2 is very much about how you get ready for a mission by building a team and understanding who they are, and about learning the magnitude of what you're facing. The funny thing is that people will say 'other than gathering your crew and building your team and getting ready for this mission, there's not much story there.' But that is the story."

ME2 is a frame story, so it's about recruiting these other people, and this is clearly what he had in mind for ME2.  Every character designed for ME2 was for ME2.  There is no reason for these characters to have relevant squad presence in ME3, especially if: 1) they're following the same design choices as ME2 (just make new characters), 2) every character is optional (which implies a generic placeholder if anything), 3) importing a save is optional (meaning new players can purchase ME3.) 4) resources and time are limited for this level of variation.  The best chances you've got are something like 2), which implies a generic placeholder.  For example, Alpha Protocol allows the player to choose a "Handler" for a mission, that is, someone who provides intel and support to the player.  This seems doable and wouldn't break the bank, or drive designers and developer into a web of causational insanity that is simply too complex to follow.

Continued:
There have to be a crazy number of permutations for how you can end your story in Mass Effect 2. How much of a nightmare is it for you guys to figure out how to address that for Mass Effect 3?
Casey: "It's ... very hard."
Do you have like a whiteboard somewhere, like a multi-faceted –
Casey: "No, it would be impossible, because it's multi-multi-dimensional. You couldn't put it into a 2D flowchart or a matrix –"
You need a stereoscopic 3D whiteboard that you can manipulate Minority Report style.
Casey: "It's beyond three or four dimensions, because you have all the consequences from a certain playthrough and many different things that happen and different things that happen within those. "

Casey is operating in a (few) dimension(s) that is(are) beyond human comprehension.  We're either going to get something that the rest of his human workforce can accomplish before achieving a singularity consciousenss, or a design so beyond simple logic that we'll need a crash course in trigonometry or string theory to figure out the connection between plot points.  Or a contrived mess.  Because Casey = Time Lord.  God have mercy on Mac, Drew and co.

Again, we wont know until the ME3 release what happens. All of this is speculation both my side and yours. Im just trying to prove, or give reason to why they might be staying.

Yes, through speculation, while I'm giving you evidence explaining the logistics and design.

And again as I said in my above post most people will have a playthrough with everyone alive, cant see why they wouldnt shell out the extra cash. Bioware just got rated I think the #18th game of all time. Of all systems, like even back when Mario was out in style. I think that is very impressive and with reviews like that Im sure they want to up the next game to be even better. I cant see how they can recruit a team and fight the reapers, it just doesnt make sense from a dev point of view. Maybe its just me having faith in my fellow canadian developers who knows, but I dont think they want to screw us over. THey gave us a whole game to connect to these guys and why would they just toss it out the window?

They wouldn't do that because they have to account for saves that don't have everyone alive.  You have to think in terms of a development cycle.  What can we do to make this piece of software run as low as possible?  This includes after hardware and software limitations are solved.  They look to their 1k list of things that need to be imported, and try to calculate how much time and effort that can take, while trying to keep the social aspects (storytelling) worthwhile.  It's a colossal effort, and is not just a matter of money.  Unless you want to pay $200 and wait 5 years for what you're expecting.

They gave us character vignettes because they wanted to.  The characters had nothing to do with the plot, and now, because we've grown to like them, they're suddenly going to be plot relevant?  Oh yeah and it's a conceptual, logistical and resource time/money nightmare?

Again as I said Im just speculating, thinking out loud if you will, but neither have any of ME2s yet. Maybe they will I do not know but again comes to the point of why has Zaheed stayed even after the collector mission, I mean I dont think even the mercs story is over.

He has no reason to stay.  Post-Suicide is simply the end of the story.  It's just there for DLC.  C'mon man.

PS, thanks for keeping this civil, it might actually be the first internet discussion that hasnt erupted in fanboyism or however else the erupt

And I'm surprised you haven't called me a complainer, whiner, ME2 hater, ME1 nostalgia fan, or any other random explicative.

[Christmas Ape]

[quote]Delta_Echo wrote...
Christmas Ape thank you for being civil in your disagreement and not resorting to juvenile personal attacks.[/quote]Well, I suppose thanks, though things like...
[quote]ahead of mindless actions (ME2 notwithstanding)[/quote]
[quote]ME2 is like some third rate crappy comic book.[/quote]
[quote]console gamers with the attention span of a gnat[/quote]is probably why it becomes a personal scrap whenever this conversation comes up. This says "If you enjoyed the plot of ME2, you're a cretin". Nobody wants to hear that. Some of us have perfectly valid reasons for enjoying the story, say as a departure from the original's tone and style. It's the sense that everybody should know your complaints are the clear and obvious truth and disagreements are the spawn of ignorance. Not exactly conducive to polite disagreement.
[quote]I'm not comparing the story of ME2 to Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy, I'm comparing it stories written preiviously by Bioware who I now hold to a higher standard. I'm also comparing it to a decent sci-fi novel, which I think is pretty high praise for a video game.[/quote]There are people who think it measures up to those standards.
[quote]ME1 is like a decent novel with interesting and cohesive plot.[/quote]This is....highly debatable. I enjoyed the hell out of it, sure, but it fell short in all the video game ways ME2 falls short.
[quote]It had a vision[/quote]And ME2 had a different vision.
[quote]and it had the details (key) that made the ME universe seem real.[/quote]Almost none of which are overhauled in any actually plot-meaningful way for ME2. I say almost only because there might be something I'm not thinking of. [quote]A human reaper created from liquified people who looks like a giant three eyed terminator?[/quote]Like a giant metal human skeleton, yes. Very basic design, laden with residual species identity for the "many minds" that make up a Reaper. Individuality.
[quote]Seriously? That's the climax of the story? Lame.[/quote]I'd say it's on par with "mecha-frog-zombie contains Sovereign's boot sector" as far as that goes.
[quote]I've read the ME novels by Drew Karpshyn (ME1 lead writer) and he's pretty good, I can tell that he tried to keep his novels in continuity with ME1. Continuity that ME2 destroys. The story feels like it was put together by a committee who knew
virtually nothing about the original game.[/quote]Honestly don't see it in the slightest. Something bad happens to Shepard, but it doesn't rewrite anything.
[quote]So we are disappointed because we know Bioware can do better, we hold their story telling to a higher standard than other games and we are offering constructive criticism.[/quote]"This is third-rate comic book crap" isn't that constructive, nor particularly true.
[quote]I'd say my Bioware fan credentials are pretty substancial but I'm still not a blind fan[/quote]One can argue the narrative is continued in a sensible fashion, if in a new tone and by different means, without being "blind", and one can probably argue the reverse without resorting to it.

[smudboy]

Delta_Echo wrote...