Nerevar-as wrote...
I guess it is because of the supposed changes in DA2 and the ones in ME2 vs ME1, but yes, we went offtopic.
Can anyone please explain the 1st vs 3rd person issue? Don´t get how VO or origins removal mean that.
Khavos wrote...
The skills were a huge change, honestly. There were tons of them in ME1, and you could make the argument that a lot were simply CRPG hold-overs that were out of place, but as clunky as the system was, it worked, and you could at least have some variety.
AlanC9 wrote...
I hated ME2's implementation because it rewards following the morality meter rather than making your own decisions.
I'm OK with ME1 and DAO, though I think magi should have a bonus to Intimidation in DAO. I can go either way on whether there should be one skill or two; they're abilities that are related but not identical.
FieryDove wrote...
Come on, ammo as skills in ME2 was awesome!
Not at all. Since Shepard's lines were unknowable before they were uttered, it was guaranteed that he'd say things you didn't intend.Jimmy Fury wrote...
That's quite a loaded question.Sylvius the Mad wrote...
But beyond that, did he still feel like he was your Shepard when he'd say things you didn't expect or want him to say?
But what about the next time you played? Or, as I asked (and you didn't answer), did you just play the one character?RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
That's my point. When I was first playing Mass Effect I didn't have any memories about footage of the game or how Shepard would sound. Then when I heard him was really an unique experience and surprising because I was expecting a silent protagonist.
I dispute that that's ever possible. If the words differ, the meaning differs. It only fails to be a problem if the meaning doesn't differ in an important way, but whether that's true will differ from player to player and character to character.And as I said before, Bioware really handled it well. Although Shepard says things differently from the dialogue wheel, the "message" is the same.
LPPrince wrote...
FieryDove wrote...
Come on, ammo as skills in ME2 was awesome!
That has to be one of the most unpopular opinions ever, if you weren't implying sarcasm.
aha, aaaawesome game, and i got so so teary during the ending scene where everybody lines up, telling you this is the last battle, and stuff, and it was a great run and stuff lol, omg amazing game, i recommend it to everybody, and get awakening along with it, just beat awakening today, ending wasn't as sad but it was still okay x) 
I'm sorry, your logic is flawed. Unknown in no way means absolutely guaranteed to be against your intent. There's not a single premise that could soundly lead to that conclusion.Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Not at all. Since Shepard's lines were unknowable before they were uttered, it was guaranteed that he'd say things you didn't intend.Jimmy Fury wrote...
That's quite a loaded question.Sylvius the Mad wrote...
But beyond that, did he still feel like he was your Shepard when he'd say things you didn't expect or want him to say?
I played multiple times and OBVIOUSLY it would never feel the same. But I never felt like "oh, Shepard should sound differently, or this other Shepard should sound differently". The different Shepards can sound differently if you choseSylvius the Mad wrote...
But what about the next time you played? Or, as I asked (and you didn't answer), did you just play the one character?
It's possible, actually. Why if the words differ, the meaning differ? I don't understand why you're saying this. It's common knowledge that you can say things with the same meaning using different words.I dispute that that's ever possible. If the words differ, the meaning differs. It only fails to be a problem if the meaning doesn't differ in an important way, but whether that's true will differ from player to player and character to character.
If you just played one Shepard, or if you played the game without ever trying to develop Shepard's personality, then I could see how the problem didn't affect you.
And if the exact meaning is important or not is entirely subjective from person to person.Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 13 juillet 2010 - 09:23 .
FieryDove wrote...
LPPrince wrote...
FieryDove wrote...
Come on, ammo as skills in ME2 was awesome!
That has to be one of the most unpopular opinions ever, if you weren't implying sarcasm.
No...it's an ongoing joke. I barb that comment to every ME2 Dev I see...
Some Renegade choices at least left me quite surprised (asari consort - really wasn´t expecting that), as it covered from complete jerk to sarcastic to no-nonsense person and you couln´t always predict which one it would be. It usually worked though, mostly in ME2.Jimmy Fury wrote...
I'm sorry, your logic is flawed. Unknown in no way means absolutely guaranteed to be against your intent. There's not a single premise that could soundly lead to that conclusion.Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Not at all. Since Shepard's lines were unknowable before they were uttered, it was guaranteed that he'd say things you didn't intend.Jimmy Fury wrote...
That's quite a loaded question.Sylvius the Mad wrote...
But beyond that, did he still feel like he was your Shepard when he'd say things you didn't expect or want him to say?
Jimmy Fury wrote...
I'm sorry, your logic is flawed. Unknown in no way means absolutely guaranteed to be against your intent. There's not a single premise that could soundly lead to that conclusion.Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Not at all. Since Shepard's lines were unknowable before they were uttered, it was guaranteed that he'd say things you didn't intend.Jimmy Fury wrote...
That's quite a loaded question.Sylvius the Mad wrote...
But beyond that, did he still feel like he was your Shepard when he'd say things you didn't expect or want him to say?
Modifié par AlanC9, 13 juillet 2010 - 09:56 .
joriandrake wrote...
FieryDove wrote...
LPPrince wrote...
FieryDove wrote...
Come on, ammo as skills in ME2 was awesome!
That has to be one of the most unpopular opinions ever, if you weren't implying sarcasm.
No...it's an ongoing joke. I barb that comment to every ME2 Dev I see...
please don't, they may believe it....
No it would not. "possible" would be an acceptable substitute for "guaranteed." The probability of intent matching execution is in no way controlled by the knowledge of the words themselves.AlanC9 wrote...
Jimmy Fury wrote...
I'm sorry, your logic is flawed. Unknown in no way means absolutely guaranteed to be against your intent. There's not a single premise that could soundly lead to that conclusion.
Would "99% probable" be an acceptable substitute for "guaranteed"?
AlanC9 wrote...
But I do agree that writing out the text doesn't solve the problem. I actually had more intent mismatches with DA:O than with ME1. Though at least in DA:O my PC didn't end up murdering anyone by accident.
AlanC9 wrote...
ME seems to be very variable.Some players have a much better sense of what Bio intends with the paraphrases than others do.
Really? You intended every nuance and every detail of each line uttered?Jimmy Fury wrote...
I'm sorry, your logic is flawed. Unknown in no way means absolutely guaranteed to be against your intent. There's not a single premise that could soundly lead to that conclusion.
That's the problem. Lose the voice and the wheel and you can have that same experience again and again.RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
I played multiple times and OBVIOUSLY it would never feel the same.
What are the different words for, then? Do they not convey different nuance and different emphasis? Perhaps one line conforms to your character's particular linguistic preferences and another does not.It's possible, actually. Why if the words differ, the meaning differ? I don't understand why you're saying this. It's common knowledge that you can say things with the same meaning using different words.
Oh, I tried to develop Shepard's personality, but I was stymied every step of the way by the dialogue system.Hmmm, please tell me how do you play without ever trying to develop Shepard's personality.
I agree, and this is why I continue to maintain that Mass Effect didn't permit roleplaying. It wasn't possible to establish a detailed set of motives for Shepard because the game was likely to contradict them later.This is impossible for any RPG that allows the player to have choices.
That's what I want. I want to be able to have an intent the writers never foresaw. That means that my characters' personalities are not at all constrained by the game's design. The trouble with the wheel and voice is that my intent can be contradicted by the game, either in this particular response or a later one.Jimmy Fury wrote...
Even with text fully written on the screen we can still end up assuming an intent that the writers never had.
I disagree. Yes, if I were willing to concede that there is a right way to read dialogue options, then I would agree that some people (myself included) appear unable to discern BioWare's intended reading of those lines.Jimmy Fury wrote...
I believe you sir, have just unearthed the very core of the entire dialogue debate.AlanC9 wrote...
ME seems to be very variable.Some players have a much better sense of what Bio intends with the paraphrases than others do.
AlanC9 wrote...
ME seems to be very variable.Some players have a much better sense of what Bio intends with the paraphrases than others do.
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That's what I want. I want to be able to have an intent the writers never foresaw. That means that my characters' personalities are not at all constrained by the game's design. The trouble with the wheel and voice is that my intent can be contradicted by the game, either in this particular response or a later one.
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Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 13 juillet 2010 - 11:03 .
Jimmy Fury wrote...
You're arguing for a system that simply does not exist outside of pen and paper gaming.
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