1230 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

Mordaedil wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

You're arguing for a system that simply does not exist outside of pen and paper gaming.

In Mods? Cause the player character had the personality of a puppet. In fact, that seems to be what they are from what you want.

[Addai]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Writers' intent controls every aspect of dialogue in both systems. It does not matter in the slightest what you think the sentence means or what you want the sentence to mean, the NPC you're speaking to will respond to the writers intent every single time.
It's physically impossible for you to have an intent the writers never forsaw because dialogue means more than one character is speaking. You have no control over the second character in either game so you have no way to be 100% certain that your intent is the intent that is manifested.

This discussion is very philosophical, but you have to realize that writer intent really doesn't matter (much).  Nor does it matter story-wise that an NPC might react to my PC's words differently than I expected.  I say things IRL that people misinterpret, too.  In the game, the fact that NPCs react unpredictably actually creates interest.

For my PC, at least, I'm able to read and think about a response before I make it.  The ability to read and analyze my response before I give it is a "bug" (according to the devs per the GI interview) that is a big feature to me.  The dialogue choices may not perfectly represent what I would like to say, but at least I know what my PC will say before my she says it.

[Jimmy Fury]

Wait just a minute I've had a minor epiphany.

You want a system where you can control the intent of the dialogue right? Where the choices presented are detailed enough to imply clear intent for every option?


That's what we're getting in DA2! The wheel is going to come with a tone identifier which will show you how the line will be spoken by the VA!  We can't claim one way or another how paraphrased the choices will be but we do know, if the alleged GI article I still haven't see is accurate, that we WILL be told tone the VA will use when he or she speaks the line.
Hurray! debate over! everyone wins! Cupcakes for all!

[ashez2ashes]

AlanC9 wrote...

jennamarae wrote...
The VO irritates me even more because I hated having to listen to Shepard's VO (both male and female) if I wanted to hear the rest of the characters speak.

Unless DA2 doesn't have the toolset DAO has, this should be simple enough to mod out, though maybe kinda tedious. If VA for the PC really is unpopular with enough folks, you should get this mod fairly soon.

Edit: hell, I'll make the damn thing myself. I got in the NWN HoF for a mod that I personally find completely worthless, so let's see if I can repeat the trick with DA2.

You know... why couldn't Bioware include this as an option? An option of turning off the VO and some sort of text interface that's the actual script of the VO instead of the dialogue wheel should be reasonably possible in the PC version.   That would help a lot with the first person vs third person perspective complaints.

They could even tout it as a feature.

Modifié par ashez2ashes, 13 juillet 2010 - 11:14 .

[TheSpoonAge]

Its funny how people whine about Origins , but see , you all said it yourselfs ... its DA 2 not DA:O 2.
First one centered around the Origins/Wardens/Blight , next one will focus on The Legend of Hawke.

From all this we can assume that in DA 3 both what we did as the Warden and what we`ll do as Hawke will have an impact on the world. Hawke is only going to be here for DA 2 and thats it.

BOTH games take place in the Dragon Age world. No one ever told you that it would be all about the Warden and the Blight and so on.

All Dragon Age games will have a different protagonist , will prolly take place in a different part of Thedas and will revolve around a specific Major Event.

Modifié par TheSpoonAge, 13 juillet 2010 - 11:21 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Addai67 wrote...
but at least I know what my PC will say before my she says it.

But you only know the words your PC will say. That's my entire point. If the words say:
"That's a great idea Alistair"
It could mean:
That's a great idea Alistair:wub:
That's a great idea Alistair:o
That's a great idea Alistair<_<

The words are exactly the same but their intent is wildly different in all three instances. You have no way of knowing which intent the writers had in mind when they included that line. You know the words, you like how they sound, you think they sound romantic, but when you click it Alistair goes:
"heeeey no need to sound so surprised!"
all your intent and characteriztion of the line just flew straight out the window. Since this isn't a real life conversation you can't go "CRAP! no! Alistair! I was flirting! stop disapproving!"

exceeept, with the new wheel we will be getting in DA2 you do know which tone will be used for the option. To me that's actually better for characterization than just having a list of full sentences.

[ashez2ashes]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
but at least I know what my PC will say before my she says it.

But you only know the words your PC will say. That's my entire point. If the words say:
"That's a great idea Alistair"
It could mean:
That's a great idea Alistair:wub:
That's a great idea Alistair:o
That's a great idea Alistair<_<

The words are exactly the same but their intent is wildly different in all three instances. You have no way of knowing which intent the writers had in mind when they included that line. You know the words, you like how they sound, you think they sound romantic, but when you click it Alistair goes:
"heeeey no need to sound so surprised!"
all your intent and characteriztion of the line just flew straight out the window. Since this isn't a real life conversation you can't go "CRAP! no! Alistair! I was flirting! stop disapproving!"

exceeept, with the new wheel we will be getting in DA2 you do know which tone will be used for the option. To me that's actually better for characterization than just having a list of full sentences.

It's a paraphrase wheel though.  Your reply isn't likely going to just be "That's a great idea"  It's going to go into a much longer reply that may or may not be what you want your character to say. 

[Mordaedil]

Nerevar-as wrote...
In Mods? Cause the player character had the personality of a puppet. In fact, that seems to be what they are from what you want.

You neither read what he wrote nor what I implied, huh? There was an online component to NWN that exceeds every Bioware game made.

[Vaeliorin]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
but at least I know what my PC will say before my she says it.

But you only know the words your PC will say. That's my entire point. If the words say:
"That's a great idea Alistair"
It could mean:
That's a great idea Alistair:wub:
That's a great idea Alistair:o
That's a great idea Alistair<_<

The words are exactly the same but their intent is wildly different in all three instances. You have no way of knowing which intent the writers had in mind when they included that line. You know the words, you like how they sound, you think they sound romantic, but when you click it Alistair goes:
"heeeey no need to sound so surprised!"
all your intent and characteriztion of the line just flew straight out the window. Since this isn't a real life conversation you can't go "CRAP! no! Alistair! I was flirting! stop disapproving!"

exceeept, with the new wheel we will be getting in DA2 you do know which tone will be used for the option. To me that's actually better for characterization than just having a list of full sentences.

The problem with this is when the tone you want doesn't match with the dialogue you want.  If the tone and dialogue were divorced from each other (as I mentioned earlier on one of these threads) it would be tolerable, but since they're tied together, you're probably quite often going to have to pick between the tone you want and the dialogue you want.  With full dialogue lines and no voiceover, you always can have the tone you desire along with the content you want, and if the NPC misinterprets your meaning...that's like real life.

[thenemesis77]

I think alot of people wanted to carry out the Warden as the main Protagonist to have this epic story that did span over 2 to 3 games and end and have that great feeling of such a story that they helped to shape and make, to me that would make for far better story then what is being done now, IMO, that is what I think and I would say others feel the same. Too many things are open, and don't give me that is up to me to think in my head how it played out, thats a easy cop out for them and not one I want.



Why is it we have to have a new protagonist in every game, to me they had a ton of story left for the Warden to carry out, hell, David knows this and hes the god to some of you, but he knows he could have and yet when the iron is hot on the warden and his or her story, he cuts it off, why the hell would you do that? It makes everything for any protaganosit lead he makes, all for not, because you place a game that David is going to write, your protagajnosit is not going to last long and really where is the market for that? It makes you know from the start that he intends to end your story in a upended way and bring in a new person to head what you have done, have to love the way he writes your main out of the story and leaves people up in arms. David can come in a spin it all day, it's the same, you just threw DAO out of the window.

[Nerevar-as]

Mordaedil wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
In Mods? Cause the player character had the personality of a puppet. In fact, that seems to be what they are from what you want.

You neither read what he wrote nor what I implied, huh? There was an online component to NWN that exceeds every Bioware game made.

Please elaborate.

[Riona45]

I, on the other hand, look forward to trying out a new character.  I love my Warden, but I honestly didn't have the expectation that the sequel would feature her as the protagonist, so I don't feel "let down" by anything.

[Jimmy Fury]

ashez2ashes wrote...
It's a paraphrase wheel though.  Your reply isn't likely going to just be "That's a great idea"  It's going to go into a much longer reply that may or may not be what you want your character to say. 

Eh. I suppose that's why I don't mind defending the wheel. I'm really not that intense about precise wording. I'll take a rich variable story over precise wording any day of the week.
I write in my spare time and I control every tiny detail of my dialogue there so I really don't focus too much on the precise wording elsewhere. The only way I'd be able to talk to other character using the exact words I want is in an MMO and I have an intense dislike for 13 year olds trying to sound cool so MMOs are out of the question for me.
So i guess I just look at it as an all-or-meh situation. I'll be using someone elses words either way so why not hear them spoken outloud.

[TheSpoonAge]

thenemesis77 wrote...

I think alot of people wanted to carry out the Warden as the main Protagonist to have this epic story that did span over 2 to 3 games and end and have that great feeling of such a story that they helped to shape and make, to me that would make for far better story then what is being done now, IMO, that is what I think and I would say others feel the same. Too many things are open, and don't give me that is up to me to think in my head how it played out, thats a easy cop out for them and not one I want.

Why is it we have to have a new protagonist in every game, to me they had a ton of story left for the Warden to carry out, hell, David knows this and hes the god to some of you, but he knows he could have and yet when the iron is hot on the warden and his or her story, he cuts it off, why the hell would you do that? It makes everything for any protaganosit lead he makes, all for not, because you place a game that David is going to write, your protagajnosit is not going to last long and really where is the market for that? It makes you know from the start that he intends to end your story in a upended way and bring in a new person to head what you have done, have to love the way he writes your main out of the story and leaves people up in arms. David can come in a spin it all day, it's the same, you just threw DAO out of the window.

But you see , all the things YOUR Warden did in DA:O will have an impact on the world , both in DA 2 3 4 5 etc... Which would mean that each and every new Protagonist we play help in shaping Thedas during and here it comes The Dragon Age. [ a span of 100 years ].
They already said you can import your Saved from DA:O and that you`ll see the ripples of your actions in DA 2. Hawks actions will be the next Stone cast in the water , enhancing the ripple for the Events in DA 3.

On a side note there is STILL DLC to come for DA:O , so rest assured that your Warden will get to end his story. Either way if there is no Blight the Wardens have nothing to do and are pushed towards the Deep Road to go fight Darkspawn in their last days so they can have a glorious death. <- "fitting ending to the last DLC right there"

Modifié par TheSpoonAge, 13 juillet 2010 - 11:49 .

[Riona45]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
I'll be using someone elses words either way so why not hear them spoken outloud.

That is basically the gist of why I don't care about choosing "precise options."

[Nerevar-as]

TheSpoonAge wrote...

thenemesis77 wrote...

I think alot of people wanted to carry out the Warden as the main Protagonist to have this epic story that did span over 2 to 3 games and end and have that great feeling of such a story that they helped to shape and make, to me that would make for far better story then what is being done now, IMO, that is what I think and I would say others feel the same. Too many things are open, and don't give me that is up to me to think in my head how it played out, thats a easy cop out for them and not one I want.

Why is it we have to have a new protagonist in every game, to me they had a ton of story left for the Warden to carry out, hell, David knows this and hes the god to some of you, but he knows he could have and yet when the iron is hot on the warden and his or her story, he cuts it off, why the hell would you do that? It makes everything for any protaganosit lead he makes, all for not, because you place a game that David is going to write, your protagajnosit is not going to last long and really where is the market for that? It makes you know from the start that he intends to end your story in a upended way and bring in a new person to head what you have done, have to love the way he writes your main out of the story and leaves people up in arms. David can come in a spin it all day, it's the same, you just threw DAO out of the window.

But you see , all the things YOUR Warden did in DA:O will have an impact on the world , both in DA 2 3 4 5 etc... Which would mean that each and every new Protagonist we play help in shaping Thedas during and here it comes The Dragon Age. [ a span of 100 years ].
They already said you can import your Saved from DA:O and that you`ll see the ripples of your actions in DA 2. Hawks actions will be the next Stone cast in the water , enhancing the ripple for the Events in DA 3.

On a side note there is STILL DLC to come for DA:O , so rest assured that your Warden will get to end his story. Either way if there is no Blight the Wardens have nothing to do and are pushed towards the Deep Road to go fight Darkspawn in their last days so they can have a glorious death. <- "fitting ending to the last DLC right there"

See the point, and have played sagas like that (just take NWN), and still don´t like it. The world goes on, and mostly everybody save for the player is around. Not many people would like that In a book or movie, and games already beat movies in storytelliing. At least I hope this time the player characters from previous games don´t end in limbo. If you were king/queen of Ferelden be there, if you went after Morrigan... the Warden should be the one to meet her if he did the DR, not some other man/woman who had nothing to do with their story.

[Davasar]

It might be a decent game, but I do not want to play "Hawke the human goes on an adventure".



It's a game clearly not targeted toward the people that liked everything in DAO. It's targeted to a broader, less loyal audience.



When a new shiny comes along, yeah, see where the new fans will be.

[Pocketgb]

It's not targeted towards Dragon Age: Origins fans, it's targeted towards Dragon Age fans.

[TheSpoonAge]

Pocketgb wrote...

It's not targeted towards Dragon Age: Origins fans, it's targeted towards Dragon Age fans.

Bingo.

[Zhijn]

David Gaider wrote...


I'd suggest maybe taking a look here: www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/publishers-note/7688-Publisher-Note-10-E-for-Everyone-Except-Me

Oh gawd, there is so much truth to that article.
I used to get a new game like every two months, now im lucky if i can find two every year.

I recall just 5-6 years ago i follow mutli gaming companies for new games, updates and what not. And now i follow two, you BioWare & CD Projekt RED (the witcher). Maybe because you still care for the M audience and dont cave into the T's (who i consider mainstream to a degree) and you still produce PC titles (btw thank you for that).

I know some will go "oh not the M vs T rating crap again", but hell i turned 30 last april and iv been a gamer for the last 14 years. I just dont need T games anymore. =/

Modifié par Zhijn, 14 juillet 2010 - 12:26 .

[thenemesis77]

TheSpoonAge wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

It's not targeted towards Dragon Age: Origins fans, it's targeted towards Dragon Age fans.

Bingo.

So DAO fans are not DA fans, I fail to see the point it is vague and moot to  a best degree.

[Pocketgb]

thenemesis77 wrote...

So DAO fans are not DA fans.

Not what I said.

[TheSpoonAge]

thenemesis77 wrote...

TheSpoonAge wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

It's not targeted towards Dragon Age: Origins fans, it's targeted towards Dragon Age fans.

Bingo.

So DAO fans are not DA fans, I fail to see the point it is vague and moot to  a best degree.

Of course DAO fans are DA fans but they seem to be more in love with the Origin Stories then with the Concept and World of Thedas/DragonAge as a whole.

[Nerevar-as]

Zhijn wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


I'd suggest maybe taking a look here: www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/publishers-note/7688-Publisher-Note-10-E-for-Everyone-Except-Me

Oh gawd, there is so much truth to that article.
I used to get a new game like every two months, now im lucky if i can find two every year.

I recall just 5-6 years ago i follow mutli gaming companies for new games, updates and what not. And now i follow two, you BioWare & CD Projekt RED (the witcher). Maybe because you still care for the M audience and dont cave into the T's (who i consider mainstream to a degree) and you still produce PC titles (btw thank you for that).

I know some will go "oh not the M vs T rating crap again", but hell i turned 30 last april and iv been a gamer for the last 14 years. I just dont need T games anymore. =/

So true. And still DA didn´t feel M compared to the Witcher. However I think players age keeps getting older and we are in the "What do you mean it´s not for kinds" ghetto.

[Riona45]

Davasar wrote...

It might be a decent game, but I do not want to play "Hawke the human goes on an adventure".

Because you know, a character being human means that is their single defining trait and they couldn't possibly be interesting.