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Any insight into the "why" and "when" on the direction of DA2....


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#476
thenemesis77

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Nerevar-as wrote...

Zhijn wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


I'd suggest maybe taking a look here: www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/publishers-note/7688-Publisher-Note-10-E-for-Everyone-Except-Me


Oh gawd, there is so much truth to that article.
I used to get a new game like every two months, now im lucky if i can find two every year.

I recall just 5-6 years ago i follow mutli gaming companies for new games, updates and what not. And now i follow two, you BioWare & CD Projekt RED (the witcher). Maybe because you still care for the M audience and dont cave into the T's (who i consider mainstream to a degree) and you still produce PC titles (btw thank you for that).





I know some will go "oh not the M vs T rating crap again", but hell i turned 30 last april and iv been a gamer for the last 14 years. I just dont need T games anymore. =/


So true. And still DA didn´t feel M compared to the Witcher. However I think players age keeps getting older and we are in the "What do you mean it´s not for kinds" ghetto.




kinds.......you mean kids......no, I don't want a kids game. Hey since your a kid, thats all up your ally then, you, yourslef have to love that turn of face and to the new age of kids of the world mental love.


Hey, let me throw this in there. Hey ask David to make kids books, what a banger for the buck that will be.

Modifié par thenemesis77, 14 juillet 2010 - 01:03 .


#477
Nerevar-as

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Yes, I meant kinds. Don´t understand at all whatever you were trying to say later.

#478
RyuGuitarFreak

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I'll stop in this post, we're talking about too much about Mass Effect in a Dragon Age thread. If you still want to continue this discussion, PM or post a thread in ME forums titled "Mass Effect is not an RPG" but if I remember well you already tried that once.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's the problem.  Lose the voice and the wheel and you can have that same experience again and again.

You ignored what I wrote later. Your "problem" is the same in other RPGs. Losing the wheel or the VO will not make it any different. Playing a second time can be completely different or not, it only depends on the writing and your decisions. Mass Effect allows you to play AT LEAST two times in completely different ways with different dialogue, Paragon or Renegade. Now, imagine if there was no VA or no dialogue wheel for Shepard in ME. Would it be so different?

What are the different words for, then?  Do they not convey different nuance and different emphasis?  Perhaps one line conforms to your character's particular linguistic preferences and another does not.

Ifyou can't see the exact line, then you can't ever be sure that your character is going to say only things you want him to say.

No. The different words there are to make the conversation sound natural and dinamic. Many times you see Shepard's responses added in context to the conversation and not just a repetition of the selected phrase. Their intention was to make it fluid, as the player would chose the answers before the NPC stoped his/her speech.
You have the idea of what Shepard is going to say and in a certain level, how, depending if it is Paragon or Renegade, you just don't know the exact words. And it is fine by me.

Oh, I tried to develop Shepard's personality, but I was stymied every step of the way by the dialogue system.

I agree,and this is why I continue to maintain that Mass Effect didn't permit roleplaying.  It wasn't possible to establish a detailed set of motives for Shepard because the game was likely to contradict them later.

I'm sorry, but what? This doesn't make any sense. I'll try to answer it somehow anyway.
In ME you're able to flow the conversation whatever way you want according to a morality system, but you have the (limited) freedom to chose the answers in whatever way you want. If it's a contradiction or not it's up to the player. The actions and answers on dialogue by definition express the personality of the character. You see, my Shepard was a Sole Survivor Paragon sometimes Renegade. Sole Survivor Shepard is usually seen like a guy that will take the mission a priority and a soldier that will do it by all means necessary. I didn't think it this way. I took in a a way that this was a trauma that would make him try to be the best leader he could ever be. Another example: On Garrus side mission on ME1 I let him take down that doctor. On ME2, however I paragoned and let Sidonis go. A contradiction? Yes, even Garrus somehow admited that, but after it he said it was hard to see the world in shades of grey. That's the idea I had, it was perfect for the ocasion.

A problem in Mass Effect system that is the same as other RPGs (KOTOR as example) isn't related to the dialogue, but the negotiaton system. It's a big limitation not being able to just chose paragon or renegade whatever way you want. If the game let you chose the answers and choices like in The Witcher, than it would be perfect. You had this chance on ME1 if you start a game with full charm and intimidation, but it's a big waste of talent points.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 14 juillet 2010 - 01:30 .


#479
Skaden

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While i feel that it's far too early to make any concrete conclusions here are a few concerns based on my first impressions regarding this game based on what we've heard so far.

Preset Race- while i typically play a human, on principle i disagree with this decision and feel that it is a fundemental inconsistancy with DAO as well as a needless limitation for players.

No Origins- While im all for change, this was 1 of the cornerstone factors that made DAO great, this deeply cripples replayability in terms of creating your own unique character thats different from everyone elses'. In DAO origins were one of the key ways your character was defined and devoloped throughout the story, hopefully DA2 will implement some form of this.

VO- To be honest, personally this doesn't bother me that much, i liked both DAO and ME forms of dialogoue, however i do feel that both games r great for their own reasons and shouldn't take 2 many cues from each other, i like each franchise for what it is.

Regarding the new screens released yesterday- it appears that while some aspects have improved some obviously require much more refinement before release. Is it just me or does that Ogre look like it has skin cancer?

Finally, regarding Hawke- (slight rant warning) I hate to sound petty or overly critical but ive gotta be honest the diffault appearance for Hawke is the stupidist looking protagonist for an rpg ive seen in a long time. What's that, i can fully customize his appearance? Then what is that half bear neanderthal on steroids that looks like he came out of Conan the Barbarian doing on the cover? (rant over)

1 last thing, im sorry but the name Hawke... its not that i hate it just for the sake of it, it just feels like it... doesn't fit in with the rest of the DA universe, not a big deal its just been bugging me.


Again, my earlier comments to the contrary, i remain mainly neutral in that these r only my impressions on what has been released so far and can easily change when more information is revealed

Modifié par Skaden, 14 juillet 2010 - 01:32 .


#480
newcomplex

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we know what a Dragon Age game should feel like, to us, and to be honest I don't think it rests in player VO/not player VO or a dialogue wheel.


I'm sure were all aware that the quality of your products don't depend upon the geometry of its dialogue wheels sir.   I kind of feel a little bit peeved because it appears like your trying to mock our concerns or something, but I'll just assume no ill will was meant.

The Mass Effect dialogue system forces every single thought in the entire game to be able to be summed up in a word phrase. The fact of the matter is that we don't want to play a game where every single response your character can produce is so flat that it can be successfully reduced to a pundit.

If you're making the design call to homogenize the otherwise still successful franchise of Dragon Age into a medieval versimile of Mass Effect, losing its aesthetical identity in the process by trying to meet an arbitrary 3 year design cycle, so be it. You have every right to do so, I'm not going to feign false-entitlement.

But I'm also not going to buying your game :(.

inb4: "LOL YOUR JUST BLUFFING".

Modifié par newcomplex, 14 juillet 2010 - 02:29 .


#481
Bobad

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I'll buy the copy you'll wish you'd had.

#482
newcomplex

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Bobad wrote...
you'll wish you'd had.


hahaha.    

I don't boycott games.   I think thats a hilariously childish and stupid thing to do.   I don't buy games if I feel that the quality of entertainment they provide does not meet the expecations that goes along with the prices level.

So no.   


Of course, it is early in the release process.   But every single change has been a change in the wrong direction.   I have not seen a single change that I think would make the sequel superior to the predesscor.  

ashez2ashes wrote...


You know... why couldn't Bioware
include this as an option? An option of turning off the VO and some sort
of text interface that's the actual script of the VO instead of the
dialogue wheel should be reasonably possible in the PC version.   That
would help a lot with the first person vs third person perspective
complaints.

They could even tout it as a feature.


Ugh.   No thanks Bioware.   Please do not gimp the game, put out a irrelevent and pointless bandaid and tout it as a feature.   VA can be turned off quite easily, but as I said before, it really doesn't matter how dialogue is presented in itself.    But rather, how it is designed to be presented will influence its content.   If your making dialogue wheels to be specifically polarized to fit on predetermined locations on the wheel, thats going to hurt or constrain narrative and quality of the dialogue regardless of how its presented to the player.   What if you want 3 variations of different forms of aggression in 3 different tones?   Can't, would be nonsensical on the dialogue wheel.   Or conversations with squadmates.   An approval options would normally have 2 or 3 different variations.   Nope, won't be there anymore.

On the off chance that they avoid this, then the entire point of a dialogue wheel would not exist.   Reviewers would complain how it is "confusing" and "poorly organized", even moreso then a simple text list.    Because it would be.   Dialogue wheels only work if you have simplistic, non-complex, and polarized pundits instead of complex and multifacetted thoughts.   

/eagerly anticipates The Witcher 2.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 14 juillet 2010 - 02:42 .


#483
Jimmy Fury

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You do know the dialogue in Origins was in predetermined places right?
top=nice
bottom=mean
The middle ones were always a bit fuzzy though. Eh
Anyway I don't see why a wheel should constrain anything any more than a list would... I seriously do not comprehend this idea that round=bad

I mean for starters the ME wheel can have up to 6 options at a time. I don't recall getting 6 options with the Origins list. And even then we're assuming it's a six segment wheel and not an 8-10 segment wheel...

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 juillet 2010 - 02:51 .


#484
Guest_Isabelle Mortello_*

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Jimmy Fury wrote...

You do know the dialogue in Origins was in predetermined places right?
top=nice
bottom=mean


No, no. I swear to god there better not be any paragon; renegade crap. Although I think it was already confirmed there won't be.

#485
newcomplex

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Jimmy Fury wrote...

You do know the dialogue in Origins was in predetermined places right?
top=nice
bottom=mean


Yes I am.   And last time I checked, there were many conversations that had 5-10 options that occupied this spectrum between good and evil.

The ME series had the following...

Lawful Good
True Neutral
Chaotic Neutral.

The end.   


So what...are they going to fit 10 options on a wheel lol?

Modifié par newcomplex, 14 juillet 2010 - 02:53 .


#486
Nosuchluck

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newcomplex wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

You do know the dialogue in Origins was in predetermined places right?
top=nice
bottom=mean


Yes I am.   And last time I checked, there were many conversations that had 5-10 options that occupied this spectrum between good and evil.

The ME series had the following...

Lawful Good
True Neutral
Chaotic Neutral.

The end.   


So what...are they going to fit 10 options on a wheel lol?


Don't forget invesitgate!... /=

#487
newcomplex

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And I don't think its really an overreaction just because its a dialogue wheel. Face it Bioware, your games have always had crap combat and crap level design.

Every single level in ME2 was a series of rooms with boxes is in it and maybe either a)Big Enemy or b)A LOT of enemies.

Only reason to play them was for story and narrative. Right now, you seem to be preternaturally gimping it right off the block.   Prove me wrong.   Give me a crazy ass dialoge wheel that encompasses the same level of choice, nuiance, subtlety, and distinction as the original except in a streamlined game 2.0 interface so it spins all funny on an analog stick.  

I'm not expecting it though :/.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 14 juillet 2010 - 03:05 .


#488
Davasar

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Riona45 wrote...

Davasar wrote...

It might be a decent game, but I do not want to play "Hawke the human goes on an adventure".


Because you know, a character being human means that is their single defining trait and they couldn't possibly be interesting.


A set defined character such as this I find wholly uninteresting.  So you are correct in a sense.

#489
ashez2ashes

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newcomplex wrote...


Ugh.   No thanks Bioware.   Please do not gimp the game, put out a irrelevent and pointless bandaid and tout it as a feature.  



Why would you be against an option that you wouldn't even have to enable?

#490
In Exile

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Not at all.  Since Shepard's lines were unknowable before they were uttered, it was guaranteed that he'd say things you didn't intend.


At the same time, since the reactions of the other characters are definite in absence of your action, whether or not your character says what you intend is actually independent of what it is that you the player intend.

Of course, I expect that you're going to try and counter with the claim that it is possible the characters misunderstood. If I raise the objection that the game did not acknowledge the misunderstanding (and point to the persistent approval loss as evidence of no such acknowledgement) I'm sure you'll reply that you can imagine a counter-factual where such a conversation took place with an equivalent dissaproval resolution, so you've preserved the entire affair.

So in fact all of this actually comes down to a fundamental pressuposition about the game world: 1) is the game world static in absence of the player (i.e. is Alistair always the same person, with different outcomes only the result of a different player character) and 2) can events happen off-screen to the PC?

Since this is Virgil speaking, I'm sure you know my answers to 1&2. The issue I'm going to draw is as follows: if you grant that the world is static and events do not happen off-screen, then non-VO is as restrictive as VO. You're going to say, why assume this if it restricts you as the player (we did this a lot, right?). My answer to that is that it is irrelevant: what matters for the purpose of this debate is what the game designer takes for granted about the world. So long as the designers take my stance on 1&2, they can say in good faith say they are not designing a game that restricts your freedom.

Take the following interaction between the PC and Alistair when Alistair reveals his background:

  • What's on your mind?
  • I'm not going to like this, am I?
  • Let me guess: You're an idiot.
  • Can't it wait?
The above four are the option set the player has in responding to Alistair`s ``I have something to tell you`` bit. The unintended reaction phrase was number 3. But that isn`t the phrase I actually want to draw attention to.

Both 1,2 and 3 can actually be interpreted with very different tones. If Alistair is a consistent character and there are no off-screen moments (in fact, not having off-screen moments follows directly from having Alistair as a consistent character) then how each line was said is defined. To be more specific:

What`s on your mind can either be aggravated, cheerful, or neutral and detached. Alistair`s response can define which of the three it is in virtue of what he says and what he does not say.

I dispute that that's ever possible.  If the words differ, the meaning differs.  It only fails to be a problem if the meaning doesn't differ in an important way, but whether that's true will differ from player to player and character to character.


That's because you define meaning in a weird way no one else does. We have a word in our language for the very concept of different words for the same meaning: synonym. If the words differ, the meaning does not have to.

If you just played one Shepard, or if you played the game without ever trying to develop Shepard's personality, then I could see how the problem didn't affect you.


Ah, but what do you mean about defining personality? The way you think personality is defined isn`t neccesarily how everyone thinks personality is defined or goes about building it, which is what began the debate in the first place.

#491
In Exile

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newcomplex wrote...
Yes I am.   And last time I checked, there were many conversations that had 5-10 options that occupied this spectrum between good and evil.

The ME series had the following...

Lawful Good
True Neutral
Chaotic Neutral.

The end.   

So what...are they going to fit 10 options on a wheel lol?


I really do not think you played the same game I did. We certainly did not have 5-10 options. We had 4 most of the time. When we had 5+ it was because we had questions; which the dialogue wheel also has (up to 6 extra choices, which occasionally branched further).

So.... I can`t see where you`re going with this.

#492
newcomplex

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ashez2ashes wrote...

newcomplex wrote...


Ugh.   No thanks Bioware.   Please do not gimp the game, put out a irrelevent and pointless bandaid and tout it as a feature.  



Why would you be against an option that you wouldn't even have to enable?


I'm not against the option itself, I'm against the option as justification for the ****ty dialogue system.   I'll support your suggestion lol, maybe it'll make them game better for you, but simply toggling the geometry of the dialogue system isn't going to make me buy the game lol.   If the dialogue system in which the dialogue was designed for isn't adequate for expressing complex and nonpolarizing thought, changing presentation isn't going to help.    But yeah, if you want it, I'm not specifically against the idea itself.    

ashez2ashes wrote...

newcomplex wrote...


Ugh.  
No thanks Bioware.   Please do not gimp the game, put out a irrelevent
and pointless bandaid and tout it as a feature.  



Why
would you be against an option that you wouldn't even have to enable?


I'm not against the option itself, I'm against the
option as justification for the ****ty dialogue system.   I'll support
your suggestion lol, maybe it'll make them game better for you, but
simply toggling the geometry of the dialogue system isn't going to make
me buy the game lol.   If the dialogue system in which the dialogue was
designed for isn't adequate for expressing complex and nonpolarizing
thought, changing presentation isn't going to help.    But yeah, if you
want it, I'm not specifically against the idea itself.    

In
Exile wrote...



newcomplex wrote...

Yes I
am.   And last time I checked, there were many conversations that had
5-10 options that occupied this spectrum between good and evil.



The
ME series had the following...



Lawful Good

True Neutral

Chaotic
Neutral.



The end.   



So what...are they going to fit 10
options on a wheel lol?




I really do not think you
played the same game I did. We certainly did not have 5-10 options. We
had 4 most of the time. When we had 5+ it was because we had questions;
which the dialogue wheel also has (up to 6 extra choices, which
occasionally branched further).



So.... I can`t see where you`re
going with this.


I didn't say we had frequently 10 options.   Most of the
time we had 4-5.    However, there were conversations with upwards to
10 answers (enough to make me scroll down at least, which I distinctly
remember).  

Moreover, they answers were never as polarized as
they were in ME2.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 14 juillet 2010 - 03:10 .


#493
ashez2ashes

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newcomplex wrote...

ashez2ashes wrote...

newcomplex wrote...


Ugh.   No thanks Bioware.   Please do not gimp the game, put out a irrelevent and pointless bandaid and tout it as a feature.  



Why would you be against an option that you wouldn't even have to enable?


I'm not against the option itself, I'm against the option as justification for the ****ty dialogue system.   I'll support your suggestion lol, maybe it'll make them game better for you, but simply toggling the geometry of the dialogue system isn't going to make me buy the game lol.   If the dialogue system in which the dialogue was designed for isn't adequate for expressing complex and nonpolarizing thought, changing presentation isn't going to help.    But yeah, if you want it, I'm not specifically against the idea itself.    


Well, my expectations are lowered.  I figured its too late for any dramatic game mechanics changes, but something of the scope I suggested would be possible.  My problem with it is the changing from third perspective to first perspective.  Just a little geometry as you put it, could at least help me delude myself in that regard. Posted Image

#494
Jimmy Fury

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newcomplex wrote...
Yes I am.   And last time I checked, there were many conversations that had 5-10 options that occupied this spectrum between good and evil.

I'm sorry but I have to call that one out as totally untrue. Show me one single 10 option dialogue list in DA. Single list.
Not sub menus because the wheel has submenus too. I mean a list of 10 distinct conversation choices all in a row.

Rarely you might have had 5, usually there were 4, plenty of times there were 3, and if you missed the chance to romance Leliana there were 2.
Some of those could lead to a secondary or tertiary list but so can the ME wheel.

So what...are they going to fit 10 options on a wheel lol?

Sure why not? There'd technically be more room on the wheel than in a list because you get both side of the wheel to put things on.
Cut the wheel into 10 segments and branch 10 different responses off of it.
I'm really not sure why that's such a bizarre and impossible concept let alone lol inducing...

#495
In Exile

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newcomplex wrote...

I didn't say we had frequently 10 options.   Most of the time we had 4-5.    However, there were conversations with upwards to 10 answers (enough to make me scroll down at least, which I distinctly remember).  

Moreover, they answers were never as polarized as they were in ME2.   


Seriously, did we play the same two games? 80% of what Shepard says is a slew of open-ended questions. "Tell me about Wrex." "What do you know about the Collectors?" The rest is either a friendly or rude remark based on the wheel. The middle option often skips the rude or friendly retorts content.

As for DA, again, when did we have upwards of 10 answers? Seriously, name a few moments in the game, because I can't recall. What I do recall are 2-3 choices, and sometimes 4-5 with redundant ones (i.e. the same choice worded differently).

#496
Sylvius the Mad

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Jimmy Fury wrote...

Writers' intent controls every aspect of dialogue in both systems. It does not matter in the slightest what you think the sentence means or what you want the sentence to mean, the NPC you're speaking to will respond to the writers intent every single time.
It's physically impossible for you to have an intent the writers never forsaw because dialogue means more than one character is speaking.

You're not even trying to see this from the roleplayer's perspective.  Look at the conversation from the point of view of the character in it (which is really the only way to look at anything when you're roleplaying, except with the dialogue wheel you often don't know what the character's point of view is until later).

The character utters a line, intending it however he does.  The NPC then responds to that line, and that response may or may not make any sense given the PC's delivery of the line (which you decided yourself).

If it makes sense (and it will almost all the time, because the NPC can't read your PC's mind, so he doesn't know what your PC intends even if your PC intends exactly what the writers wanted him to, and the literal content of the line really can't change much) then there's no problem, and if it doesnt make sense then that's another opportunity to roleplay your character's reaction.

I don't care how the NPCs respond to what my character says, because I don't have any control over other people.  I can't control how people interpret what I say.  What I say is my action, and their response is their action.  I only control my actions.  This is how the world works.

And this is where roleplaying happens.  You decide why your character says what he says.  You decide your character's intent in uttering any given line (and again, the game could never reasonably respond to that intent anyway unless one of the NPCs was a mind-reader).  That's the core gameplay.  That's the fun.

If you take that away, there's no game left.

#497
Jimmy Fury

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As a roleplayer I see everything I say from a roleplayer's perspective and it changes absolutely nothing about what I said. The tone you imagine on a line is irrelevant because the writers already gave it a tone when they added it to the list. It is their tone that will be applied to the conversation no matter what.

And that's as far as i'm going to debate with you. No offense but there's no logic behind "my style of playing is the only right way" so there's nowhere this can ever go.

#498
Sylvius the Mad

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I never claimed my way was the only right way. You're the one doing that. I'm saying that my way is possible, unless a feature like ME's dialogue wheel comes along and breaks it. My way is the way CRPGs have worked since 1980. There's been no reason to change the way I play because games have continued to accommodate this traditional RPG playstyle.

ME didn't.

#499
Bryy_Miller

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newcomplex wrote...

Every single level in ME2 was a series of rooms with boxes is in it and maybe either a)Big Enemy or b)A LOT of enemies.


I don't know what kind of games you play, but every single game I've ever played has been developed using methods of "make room, put stuff in it".

#500
Jimmy Fury

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Every single level in ME2 was a series of rooms with boxes is in it and maybe either a)Big Enemy or b)A LOT of enemies.


I don't know what kind of games you play, but every single game I've ever played has been developed using methods of "make room, put stuff in it".

Not pong!
Although Pac Man was just rooms with stuff in them...