1230 réponses à ce sujet

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I never claimed my way was the only right way. You're the one doing that. I'm saying that my way is possible, unless a feature like ME's dialogue wheel comes along and breaks it. My way is the way CRPGs have worked since 1980. There's been no reason to change the way I play because games have continued to accommodate this traditional RPG playstyle.
ME didn't.

Good for you, but you didn't convince anyone and I don't think you ever will that ME doesn't offer roleplay compared to other CRPGs. End of discussion.

[Tollak_Grippsson]

phaonica wrote...

Bioware representatives have said that Mass Effect is choice-driven third-person and Dragon Age: Origins is first-person. ().

VIDEO: 4:18minutes plus
"ME is more of a 3rd-person-authored experience with a lot of nonlinearity - a little open-world, but a little more of an authored experience.  But it's the third-person experience, in a sense, you're conveying a suggestion to Shepard, who has a defined personality, and then you see what Shepard does, and it's really cool to see that."

DA, on the other hand, is a 1st-person authored experience, where, you are that character right from the moment of the origins story; you'r e invested in the character, you take a role on.  You really feel like it's you that's making those choices.  We focus on responces in non-player charaacters to you. 

That's the difference in our [Bioware] mind between a first-person and third-person authored experience:
1st person: I, I, I.
3rd person: observing a character.  you are that character, so its maybe 2nd-person in that sense, but you're also watching the character, and you're seeing what happens when you issue orders to that character, and you're still not clear on what that character may do/react to those orders."



Perhaps this is what David Gaider was trying to convey when he said that both were valid ways to portray THEDAS; was a little unclear to me.

[Jimmy Fury]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I never claimed my way was the only right way. You're the one doing that. I'm saying that my way is possible, unless a feature like ME's dialogue wheel comes along and breaks it. My way is the way CRPGs have worked since 1980. There's been no reason to change the way I play because games have continued to accommodate this traditional RPG playstyle.
ME didn't.

I never claimed any way was right or wrong but I digress let me rephrase what I said.
You have already decided that I am not a roleplayer and you are. You have based this conclusion on the premise that I do not subscribe to the same style of roleplay that you do therefore I am not a roleplayer. You stated this yourself when you said that my way of looking at the subject was not from a roleplayers perspective.
Apologies, no offense intended, you have made some great arguments, and I respect your dedication to your prefered style of play.
I simply disagree that there is only one way to do it and think we should keep an open mind in regard to the DA2 wheel since we have no idea how closely it will match the ME wheel.

[Bryy_Miller]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Every single level in ME2 was a series of rooms with boxes is in it and maybe either a)Big Enemy or b)A LOT of enemies.

I don't know what kind of games you play, but every single game I've ever played has been developed using methods of "make room, put stuff in it".

Not pong!
Although Pac Man was just rooms with stuff in them...

Pong was a box. My point is that every game is designed in a box.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:34 .

[Massadonious1]

I wish people would stop thinking that unvoiced protagonists have been anything but a technological or monetary crutch.

It was never concieved as some brilliant idea to add more "immersion" or depth.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:44 .

[Solid N7]

The only good thing about these changes in DA2 is that these pc gamers with their crazy obssesion about roleplaying are not going to buy the game and eventually they are gonna to leave these forums please god I hope that day come.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

I simply disagree that there is only one way to do it and think we should keep an open mind in regard to the DA2 wheel since we have no idea how closely it will match the ME wheel.

I do agree that we don't know exactly how the DA2 wheel is going to work (or if we'll be able to disable the PC voice-over, which I've specifically requested), so we can't say whether it will accommodate any particular playstyle.

As such, I try to limit my impressions to how the ME wheel worked, and speculate on what effects the new wheel features (like the emotion icon) might have.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Massadonious1 wrote...

I wish people would stop thinking that unvoiced protagonists have been anything but a technological or monetary crutch.

It was never concieved as some brilliant idea to add more "immersion" or depth.

Whether it was intended to add depth is irrelevant to whether it does.

[Massadonious1]

Then you shouldn't of been too shocked when technology started to catch up and/or they found it monetarily viable to include such things.



I would like to imagine that if Origins was made in the same style as DA2, or if they had enough development time or the budget to add VO for all the different race/gender combinations, they would of done so.

[hckling]

Alright guys, I can understand the frustration about the change in gameplay mechanics even though we really don't know even nearly enough to actually comment on it yet. Regarding the introduction of a new character in the sequel though, those complaints I do not understand.

Have you ever read a book? Sometimes authors will split the narrative and tell it from the perspective of several different people. Take Tom Clancy as a perfect example of this. Pretty much all his books start with a bunch of seemingly independent characters and storylines.

The first part in the story of Dragon Age is the story of the Grey Wardens and the rise and subsequent defeat of the Blight. This part sets the backdrop for the major storyline and describes the country of Ferelden.

The second part starts during the Blight and tells the story of Hawke, a nobody's rise to power and tells of his life and exploits.

In Dragon Age 3 the two stories merge back into one and the loose ends are tied together. Morrigan returns along with the now grown baby, Hawke plays his part and the Grey Wardens play theirs (maybe based on the decisions your character made in Origins, maybe your character is featured as well). I wouldn't be surprised if you play through this part of the story from yet another new perspective.

Anyway... Just because your Origins character won't be playable in Dragon Age 2, that doesn't mean what took place during Origins and the decisions you made while playing are somehow irrelevant. It just means that that character has played his part in the story, now it's time to see what happens next. Maybe what Bioware is trying to do is NOT telling the story of a single individual but rather much grander tale on a much bigger scale than what we are used to in computer RPGs.

Modifié par hckling, 14 juillet 2010 - 10:58 .

[Jallard]

I have read all of Tom Clancy's novels. In the end, however, the story always reverts back to the original main protagonist. If Bioware intends to follow that line of writing then our protagonist from DA:O should be in the final episode of the Dragon Age Chronicle. Perhaps that will only come out as a DLC. Whatever Bioware has in mine for the Drage Age series it is anyone's guess.



I work with and live with low income people, in low income housing: And, they are the most outspoken self-entitled individuals I have ever met. There is an old saying,



"You can please some of the people some of the time: But, you can't please them all all of the time."



I like playing Dragon Age Origins, the way it was currently designed. That is my style of play. If DA2 doesn't fit into my gameplay style then so be it. I won't waste my money.

[Solid N7]

Jallard wrote...

I have read all of Tom Clancy's novels. In the end, however, the story always reverts back to the original main protagonist. If Bioware intends to follow that line of writing then our protagonist from DA:O should be in the final episode of the Dragon Age Chronicle. Perhaps that will only come out as a DLC. Whatever Bioware has in mine for the Drage Age series it is anyone's guess.

I work with and live with low income people, in low income housing: And, they are the most outspoken self-entitled individuals I have ever met. There is an old saying,

"You can please some of the people some of the time: But, you can't please them all all of the time."

I like playing Dragon Age Origins, the way it was currently designed. That is my style of play. If DA2 doesn't fit into my gameplay style then so be it. I won't waste my money.

excellent one less of these pc gamers.

[Jallard]

Solid N7 wrote...

Jallard wrote...

I have read all of Tom Clancy's novels. In the end, however, the story always reverts back to the original main protagonist. If Bioware intends to follow that line of writing then our protagonist from DA:O should be in the final episode of the Dragon Age Chronicle. Perhaps that will only come out as a DLC. Whatever Bioware has in mine for the Drage Age series it is anyone's guess.

I work with and live with low income people, in low income housing: And, they are the most outspoken self-entitled individuals I have ever met. There is an old saying,

"You can please some of the people some of the time: But, you can't please them all all of the time."

I like playing Dragon Age Origins, the way it was currently designed. That is my style of play. If DA2 doesn't fit into my gameplay style then so be it. I won't waste my money.

excellent one less of these pc gamers.

Yes, I am a PC gamer, but that doesn't have anything to do with DA: O or DA2 and how it is presented or played. I have seen Dragon Age Origins played on an XBOX and I still prefer the PC version.  Just as I prefer  building my on computers as appose to purchasing and Apple. Now, there's food for thought?!?

Modifié par Jallard, 14 juillet 2010 - 02:06 .

[Solid N7]

all these complains and threats about not buying the game, comes "generally" from pc gamers.

[Jallard]

Solid N7 wrote...

all these complains and threats about not buying the game, comes "generally" from pc gamers.

Perhaps. Still, we are all individuals who have differing points-of-view on how they like playing RPG games. I love and respect technology and appreciate seeing new things. If Bioware can improve the play, good. If they can make improvements in graphics all well and good. I can accept that. Regardless, I played Mass Affect and did not like it. I felt like I wasted my money buying it. PC version games can't be traded in. So, unless you can sell it to an individual you ar S.O.L. That's my concern about purchasing DA2. If anything I would like to play a demo first. No one buys a new car without test driving it first: Or, do you?

[Solid N7]

Is ok if you don´t like the game is your choice, but I hate all these silly complains about game with so little information and their crazy obssesion about the roleplaying they are like the japanese otakus.

[Jallard]

Solid N7 wrote...

Is ok if you don´t like the game is your choice, but I hate all these silly complains about game with so little information and their crazy obssesion about the roleplaying they are like the japanese otakus.

I think it is because Dragon Age Origins has been such unique and special RPG game: and, you are right perhaps some of the complaints are silly based upon the lack of information about DA2. But, that is either Bioware or EA's fault for putting out so little information. They should have been much more explicit. People don't want blurbs, they want sound and sustantiated facts. We get enough of that with American politicians.

Also, a game trailer is only to entice the consumer. I have never seen a game trailer that actually depicted how the game is actually played. If that makes any sense?

[rolson00]

Davasar wrote...

I asked these questions before in a different thread...and the crickets answered me.

lmao brill way of putting it!

its early days yet people!

[TMZuk]

Solid N7 wrote...

Is ok if you don´t like the game is your choice, but I hate all these silly complains about game with so little information and their crazy obssesion about the roleplaying they are like the japanese otakus.

I complain because I think Bioware is leaving a story half finished.

And.... "crazy obsession about roleplaying".... Perhaps it is YOU who should find another sort of games to play? Because calling those who choose RPG's crazy because they want an RPG to be an RPG, well, that sure is crazy.

[Jimmy Fury]

hckling wrote...

Alright guys, I can understand the frustration about the change in gameplay mechanics even though we really don't know even nearly enough to actually comment on it yet. Regarding the introduction of a new character in the sequel though, those complaints I do not understand.

Have you ever read a book? Sometimes authors will split the narrative and tell it from the perspective of several different people. Take Tom Clancy as a perfect example of this. Pretty much all his books start with a bunch of seemingly independent characters and storylines.

Very true.
Not to mention that some of the most immersive fantasy worlds are built on multiple books with a variety of main characters. The Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and LoTR don't follow one single character they present Middle Earth, its people, and its history. Pratchett's Disk world series shares a world and some characters but not 1 single protagonist.  I had always assumed that's what the DA series would do, hence the first one having a ": Origins" attached.

-narf, sorry for if this conversation is long since over. Got interrupted by having to buy comics in the middle of writing it -

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 juillet 2010 - 05:00 .

[haberman13]

Solid N7 wrote...

Is ok if you don´t like the game is your choice, but I hate all these silly complains about game with so little information and their crazy obssesion about the roleplaying they are like the japanese otakus.

Unfortunately us PC gamers have been getting trickle down games from the consoles for years now.  Coming from an age of BG2/KOTOR/NWN/Morrowind to "Mass Effect 2/Oblivion/<random console port>" is what makes us reactionary.

There is still no excuse, its childish behavior, but that is why.

[the_one_54321]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I never claimed my way was the only right way. You're the one doing that. I'm saying that my way is possible, unless a feature like ME's dialogue wheel comes along and breaks it. My way is the way CRPGs have worked since 1980. There's been no reason to change the way I play because games have continued to accommodate this traditional RPG playstyle.
ME didn't.

Good for you, but you didn't convince anyone and I don't think you ever will that ME doesn't offer roleplay compared to other CRPGs. End of discussion.

Did anyone else find this response completely ludacris? You don't get to just dictate when a discussion is over. Especially considering the flat out inaccuracy of the statement you make just before you try to do so. I'm not exactly agreeing with Sylvius here (in fact I think his personal deffinition of Role Playing is exclusionary to the point of being inaccurate) but that doesn't change the fact that he has a point.
In his mind ME does not allow you to Role Play. And he's not the only person that feels that way. I think that this mind set just robs him and those others of the ability to enjoy some good games, but I recognize that what he has to say about the games relation to his play style is completely valid.

[errant_knight]

David Gaider wrote...

I would suggest that you wait to hear exactly what our approach is before trying to figure out whether it's what you're interested in or not.

People appear to be acting as if the scant details we've revealed are all they'll ever learn about the game ever, and they're thus required to render judgment immediately.

You're really not. You might, in fact, want to see exactly how we're implementing these features you dislike and seeing for yourself whether they differ from, say, Mass Effect's. There are similarities, of course, but there are also differences... and to assume you know everything about how the game is going to feel based off the most cursory of information is just going to make you look foolish.

Perhaps in the end DA2 won't be for you after all. That's fair. You should be able to judge prior to actually playing it-- there will be information galore available prior to its release, I'm sure. But if you want to have questions asking the "why" regarding our approach taken seriously, it might be sensible to wait and see what that approach is first.

The big problem for me is the dialogue wheel, and I don't see how more information will help with that. I can live with the voiced PC, although it's pretty much the opposite of what I prefer. I can live with no return to the Warden. I get that would be hard to do without making a game that was even bigger than Origins, and in a 2 year development window, that's impossible. The part I really, really have a problem with is not being able to choose what I want to say in conversation beyond a style of answer (as well as when and where most conversations take place, but we know nothing about that for DA2). I don't want to be surprised by the words coming out of my own mouth. That's just not a real conversation. Now, maybe it will be implemented differently, so we see all the dialogue, but I doubt it. The only point there can be to the wheel in the first place is to avoid repeatition of the line-reading to speaking-and to make the GUI easier for consoles.

People who didn't enjoy the conversations won't get why this is so important to me, but it is, and for me, it sucks the immersion right out of the game, a big reason I wan't interested in Mass Effect. The conversations may well have been my favorite part of the game, and were a big part of why I felt like I was really travelling with people--something that was not the case in Awakening, although for other reasons than the wheel. I'd love to hear that I'm wrong about how this will work, but I'm not seeing it happening. The wheel places the game squarely in the third person. In the first person, not knowing what I was going to say or do until I do it just isn't possible, unless the PC has some kind of severe cognitive disfunction.

Modifié par errant_knight, 14 juillet 2010 - 05:29 .

[horvagab]

I'm sorry if this'll sound kind of elitist, or derogatory, but this is my view of DA:O's story, and why the Warden shouldn't be the main character this time.



Because being a Warden is about the Blight and the Darkspawn. Wardens LITERALLY sacrifice their life the moment they make the decision to join the Wardens, even before the Joining. Legion of Dead? Pfff, Slayer-wannabes, fight until you die cute. Wardens fight and HAVE to win, not just die trying, but die winning. There is no glory in being a warden, it is about duty, sacrifice and survival. What kind of story would your Warden do? Another Blight? So soon, don't think so. Ferelden is being invaded by another country? Not your problem, you serve no country, but life itself. The whole world is your charge. Their life literally revolves around death, whether they are losing or winning, Wardens will die. In my opinion it would be a disservice to continue the Warden's tale. Thedas is more than just the Blight and the Darkspawn.



What made DA:O one of the best experiences were the Grey Wardens. They weren't knights in shining armor (except Alistair, he was extra-shiny on the inside ). They are soldiers, doing a job that must be done, one that will cost them their lives. The Joining Ritual was one of the best and most profound moments I ever witnessed in a video game. It showed how the Wardens operate, and showed me the scope of their mission. The Warden did his/her job, and I think we should leave him/her to her own devices, so she can savor her decades before going down under to get killed by Darkspawn before s/he goes mad from their blood him/her ingested.



(Although delving into the origin of the Blight might be a good storyline, but still, going again as the Warden is not my wish)



Sorry for wall of text

[Jallard]

horvagab wrote...

I'm sorry if this'll sound kind of elitist, or derogatory, but this is my view of DA:O's story, and why the Warden shouldn't be the main character this time.

Because being a Warden is about the Blight and the Darkspawn. Wardens LITERALLY sacrifice their life the moment they make the decision to join the Wardens, even before the Joining. Legion of Dead? Pfff, Slayer-wannabes, fight until you die cute. Wardens fight and HAVE to win, not just die trying, but die winning. There is no glory in being a warden, it is about duty, sacrifice and survival. What kind of story would your Warden do? Another Blight? So soon, don't think so. Ferelden is being invaded by another country? Not your problem, you serve no country, but life itself. The whole world is your charge. Their life literally revolves around death, whether they are losing or winning, Wardens will die. In my opinion it would be a disservice to continue the Warden's tale. Thedas is more than just the Blight and the Darkspawn.

What made DA:O one of the best experiences were the Grey Wardens. They weren't knights in shining armor (except Alistair, he was extra-shiny on the inside ). They are soldiers, doing a job that must be done, one that will cost them their lives. The Joining Ritual was one of the best and most profound moments I ever witnessed in a video game. It showed how the Wardens operate, and showed me the scope of their mission. The Warden did his/her job, and I think we should leave him/her to her own devices, so she can savor her decades before going down under to get killed by Darkspawn before s/he goes mad from their blood him/her ingested.

(Although delving into the origin of the Blight might be a good storyline, but still, going again as the Warden is not my wish)

Sorry for wall of text

I appreciated what you had to say, because it does make sense. However, for me DA:O was about character creation and evolving and developing the character throughout the game. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of replay ability in DA2 -- at least that's the gist I get from the very short non descriptive blurb. That being said, I think Bioware and/or EA was premature in getting that out. They should have waited until they had more to say. Obviously, that's just my opinion. Because all it did was wrinkle feathers.